Who has the best serve under 120mph?
- Thread starter J011yroger
- Start date
Which you obviously have not disagreed with much since you have your disclaimer that as long as the returner is not 'off balance' he can return it. You've never said wiithout any qualifications that the returner would be able to return a ball placed in the middle of the box.
Also, all this is a moot discussion anyway. At the rec level a huge serve in that range is going to net a lot of winners regardless of placement. I disagree with your statement of 4.5s being able to return those serves (maybe, if they get lucky once in a while). At the pro level, the huge servers have pretty good placement anyway. However, pace does bother pros too which is why Nadal moves back. Pace does allow you much greater leeway in terms of having a much bigger area for placement than having to hit the lines consistently.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
And my only disagreement there is it would still work better than a no pace serve with placement. Just hard down the middle doesn't say much. If it's coming with kick and spin, it's still not going to be easy to put it away and a neutral return doesn't put the server at a disadvantage by any means. If you take fast as a proxy for just flat, then yes, after seeing a few of them, it can be easy to anticipate and go after.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
This, exactly. Out of two serves placed in the same slot, the one with greater pace is obviously better.
Well, there's qualifications to everything. My off balance comment was mainly to discount the lucky shots that aren't placed, but happen to land in a good spot. Placement could be intentional or unintentional I suppose. Also, at some speed the equation shifts to the point where you would obviously be correct. If Sam Groth could hit 160mph all the time in the middle of the box he probably would win most of his matches. If it's not 160mph, maybe it would be 170mph. Who knows what the actual speed is, but the argument has to be qualified somehow.
You can disagree with my statement and disbelieve that there are 4.5s who can handle 120mph+ pace, but I've seen plenty of guys do it. They obviously have to get a serve that fast that they can reach, but it's not that hard for guys with a bit of talent and some experience with it. In fact, you saying if they get lucky once in a while is exactly the opposite of what happens. They get better at it during the match like any good returner. The more they see the big pace down the middle they better they get at returning it.
And I do agree with you that at the pro level most guys with big serves have very good placement. That's what you'd expect. Once you can hit it hard enough, it makes a lot more sense to try and place it well than to just try and hit it harder. The placement is what gets you the free points.
As far as big serves bothering Nadal, I think what bothers him is the big serve with placement. If you gave him a choice between the two, a big serve down the middle or one with placement, we know what he would pick. I also suspect that after a couple of service games he would start licking his chops for those big serves and end up destroying the poor soul that was trying to beat him on pace alone.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
So he didn't say not important at all. Just not that important. Is placement more important for Federer or Isner? Come on, this isn't even particularly debatable. Isner's greater pace does allow him more leeway with placement than Fed gets. If Fed puts one in the slot, he gets spanked. Much harder to do that off Isner because the pace and bounce means it gets really big on the opponent who either has to block it or stand way back to return. In either event, hitting a return winner is a lot more difficult which is why we don't see too many of those off Isner.
I think it was the "regardless of where it lands" part that really kicked things off. Anyway, it seems to be moot now since we are all circling this drain and coming to the same place I think except for maybe that @mcs1970 hasn't yet had the opportunity to see 4.5 players that can handle huge serves hit in the middle of the box. With some guys it just doesn't phase them. Maybe it's that I live in an area that has had a lot of baseball players and they have experience with 90mph fastball hitting. A tennis ball just isn't moving that fast by the time it crosses the baseline, and a racquet is much bigger than a bat. Anyway, that point could easily be proven or disproven if anyone wanted to take on the challenge. Just go to a tennis center that has one of those ball machines that serves 120mph and offer a cash prize to the first player that can return 9 of 10 ten that are hit in the middle 1/3rd of the box. I'm sure you'd find quite a few winners in you're in an area with a reasonable population of players.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Middle 1/3 means it's not going to be so fast by the time it gets to racquet. When I say fast, I am thinking of serves that are still coming hard even by the time they are on the racquet. Usually, they have to be on or at close to the service line. My partner serves like that. It's very flat so when it skids off the line, it's very hard to return effectively. If I just plonk a neutral ball, he's going to get on top of it too so actually playing return pressure is difficult when you don't have much time to make a full stroke. I take your point in that he doesn't hit the SAME spot every time so I don't have the option of backing way behind the baseline and opening up the out wide serve. But I also don't think being able to alternate down the T and out wide requires exceptional placement.
First of all, I think you're from the same neck of woods that I'm from..DFW. So yes, I've seen my share of 4.5/5.0 there and we're talking about the same type of folks. There is a difference between 120mph and 130mph. Showe me some returner at the 4.5 level who returns 9 out of 10 at that speed, without all the other qualifications of going and standing back at the baseline, and I'll concede your point. Raw speed is still raw speed, and at every level, including the highest levels of pro raw speed does bother folks. You're repeating the same argument that Jolly initially started this thread about...regarding folks here who say that raw speed by itself doesn't bother them. You seem to side with those folks. I don't, because as I said I've seen even pros at the highest level having trouble with raw speed.
By middle third I mean left/right middle not net/service line middle. And it's hard to hit those skidding serves that don't bounce up at 120mph unless they actually hit the line. I know some guys that intentionally hit those low skidding backspin type serves and it always takes me a couple of service games before I start to get comfortable returning them. Very easy to hit those into the net due to the low trajectory coming into your racquet on the return.
If you remove the ability of the returner to position themselves farther back in the court then I'll have to concede your point. I could win 90% of my serve points serving 80mph if I could force the returner to stand close. Like I said before at some speed it's obviously true that people can't return the ball. My point was that 120-130mph isn't fast enough to win on speed alone. And I could find you some guys that could return 120-130mph all day long if you hit it down the middle and don't require they hug the baseline. If you think that not hugging the baseline means they are bothered by the speed then I guess they are bothered. They probably won't be bothered by winning that point more than the server wins it though.
In any case, it still seems like on the most important point we are agreeing that you need some reasonable combination of speed and placement at whatever level you play at. The other stuff is just bloviating at the edges, which I do like to engage in from time to time.
If you remove the ability of the returner to position themselves farther back in the court then I'll have to concede your point. I could win 90% of my serve points serving 80mph if I could force the returner to stand close. Like I said before at some speed it's obviously true that people can't return the ball. My point was that 120-130mph isn't fast enough to win on speed alone. And I could find you some guys that could return 120-130mph all day long if you hit it down the middle and don't require they hug the baseline. If you think that not hugging the baseline means they are bothered by the speed then I guess they are bothered. They probably won't be bothered by winning that point more than the server wins it though.
In any case, it still seems like on the most important point we are agreeing that you need some reasonable combination of speed and placement at whatever level you play at. The other stuff is just bloviating at the edges, which I do like to engage in from time to time.
Bloviating is my speciality
Yes..I think we both agree for the most part. Just to clarify...you put the disclaimer in all your posts on how a player can return it if they are not 'off balance'. I'm sure you don't mean if everything goes right that a player can return those. I'm assuming you feel confident in your assertion that for the most part a player can return a high speed ball as long as it always lands in the middle of the court. I understand your overall point and the nuance. Similarly when I say regardless of where it lands, I'm not saying if someone just lands 10 out of 10 balls in the center of the court, one can't get used to it. I played a lot of racquetball. Even I as a hack player can get used to it if it's predictable and falling in the same area always since I don't have to move at all.My point is that placement is less important the greater speed you have. My other point is that when you get into a certain range, speed is still speed. Plenty of hitters whiff at fast balls down the middle from Aroldis Chapman. Even 98mph vs 102 mph makes a huge difference. Speed is a killer weapon to have and can mask a lot of flaws.
Dragy
Legend
Down the middle is not a "no placement". If one can consistently land a fast serve dowm the middle it's just a decision between this and landing it to outer 1/3 or 1/4 of the box.
Now if it's aiming down the middle but spraying left and right (while by some miracle keeping decent percentage of over the net and in), it's no more your "predictable right onto the racquet". Even though such a case wouldn't look fancy (OMG how happenes he doesn't control where he wants to hit this serve!) it would most likely be very effective, landing high pace (for the level of competition) serves all around the box.
My point with down the middle was just that it's much easier to hit your hardest serves in if you aim "down the middle". In other words I can hit hard and flat towards the middle and even if I happen to be a few feet off it still goes in. So I could conceivably serve 85-90% down the middle and really hard, vs. 60% towards the lines and really hard. If the pace were enough by itself I wouldn't worry about trying to get close to the lines, I'd be much better off just slamming them down the middle.
Dragy
Legend
Service box is 13.5ft wide. Cmon man, you can easily aim your serve to the BH corner and be safe with those “a few feet”. If your deviation covers whole box, then your argument is invalid, cause all around the box is a good variety
The real issue hammering fastest flat serves consistency is tiny height/depth window. Just almost nobody gets it in with justifying %, including most pros.
Service box is 13.5ft wide. Cmon man, you can easily aim your serve to the BH corner and be safe with those “a few feet”. If your deviation covers whole box, then your argument is invalid, cause all around the box is a good variety
Thank you for your confidence in my serve!
Well, if you serve as hard as you can towards the middle you'll get some variety of course. The idea is to prioritize speed to win free points on serve while minimizing errors to keep from faulting. The deviation isn't all around the box, but you minimize errors when aiming down the middle and if the contention is that the speed is enough to win the point then the obvious strategy is just hit it as hard as you can down the middle so you have the least errors. This is pretty much the opposite strategy of what competitive players usually do, which is placement first and speed second.
Dragy
Legend
Not correct. For a player who owns a serve (can land it say >60%) there’s likely no difference in number of faults if hitting it down the middle or to a 1/3 of the box near the T.Thank you for your confidence in my serve!
Again, I'm talking about prioritizing speed above all else under the assumption that speed alone will win the free point. Obviously at some point there will be a limit where trying to hit harder produces more and larger errors. The idea in the prioritize speed scenario is to hit as close to that limit as possible. Hitting with the widest margin should allow getting closer to that maximum effort pace before the errors become unmanageable.
There's really no good data to judge this on that I can point to since I think it's exceedingly rare that any pro player is trying to push the limits that regularly on their serve. I think typically they are working in a comfort zone of maybe 90% effort max or so. When watching tennis on TV I would sometimes wait a whole match watching Raonic, Isner, or Roddick back in the day to see if they would get close to their tournament top speed serve and they never would, or they might have one serve that was close in a whole match. And of course it varies greatly for all sorts of reasons, so without a suitably large sample size and attempts to equalize variables, there isn't even a good way to judge fairly the data set we might be able to easily get from tournament data so who knows for sure. It's still fun to talk about though.
Just to be clear on my position for anyone reading this and looking for real world advice. Placement is a better priority on the serve. We've all seen pros get cleanly aced many times with serves around 110mph. That speed or something close to it is attainable by almost any athletic adult if they are serious about it and don't have some sort of physical impediment. A smart server that can place the ball at that speed is going to be very difficult to break for most players.
Dragy
Legend
Have you considered a possibility, that pro servers’ match/tournament top speed of serve is a perfect coincidence within going for typical heater serve, rather than a deliberate attempt to hit the boundaries? Even with best servers there’s always imperfection and some instances of brilliant execution.
110 mph with spin is a darn good serve. To get there from your typical 80-90mph rec serve one should build up techniques and strongly buff RHS, then establish consistency, before even trying any precise placement.
It's a possibility. I think you can observe a difference in effort at times when guys are hitting bigger serves. In fact, I've also seen (more rarely) what I believe to be clear effort at execution rather than power on the part of certain servers at times. But, you're right it could be mere coincidence or other factors which as I mentioned would be very difficult to suss out with the available data.
The best possible indication we might be able to get easily would be a simple player survey where we ask a handful of pertinent questions and see how the players themselves perceive their efforts. It wouldn't necessarily be determinative, but it's a lot better than anything we can do at the moment.
It is a very good serve. I would argue it's professional level. I see two main problems for people when developing high level serves. For some people they have a very hard time letting go of their existing technique. It's very rare that someone will accept starting over. So then their serve journey becomes a back forth zig zag of trying to adopt some aspect of the professional technique they like into their existing technique. Very poor way to learn, but for some reason it's very common. The second problem is just one of discipline and effort. You really need to practice a new technique at least every other day or so and a lot of people just won't find the time to do that. So it becomes a repetitive effort to train the same things over and over again because the retention is bad.
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You make it out that just because a pro can do it, any reasonably athletic adult should be able to do it, provided they put the time and effort to gain consistency. If it were that easy, then all high level rec players, college players, and even pros should have killer serves. They definitely have put in the time and have the athletic ability to do it. A 110 mph with precise placement and spin can get you a lot of aces. That's not just a 'professional level' serve. That's a killer serve even for a high level pro. However, forget high level rec/college players...even among pros most can't serve that way on demand. If they could, it would net them a lot of easy points.
You're oversimplifying things. For a lot of rec adults..forget 110mph...even getting 90mph consistently with precise placement will be a challenge. If they can do it, they'll be very tough to beat.
I feel like you guys read a lot into what I write that isn't there. I didn't say because a pro can do it anyone can. My contention was that any reasonably athletic person could achieve that speed. I didn't say they would also magically get precise placement with spin on every serve they hit. Nor did I say they would be able to use it in matches with 100% confidence. I was simply talking about capability. It's just not that physically difficult to serve well over 100mph. The difficult part is actually learning the technique and dedicating yourself to the practice. That's all I was getting at. Being a pro and performing consistently in matches so that you can rise through the ranks is an incredibly difficult task with all sorts of non-technique related skills involved. That's a whole different level. And I would guess that a majority of male college tennis players are hitting 110mph serves or better fairly regularly if you're looking at the upper half. It's probably fairly rare to see rec players serving at the level. There might be a few outliers here and there with the majority of servers who would consistently hit serves that hard being 4.5 or better. Maybe I should say 5.0. It seems like the USTA diluted 4.5 quite a few years ago when they bumped up a ton of 4.0s. I don't really play rec league any more, so my estimation of ratings might be a bit outdated. Although, in my conversations with a couple of people who've tried to recruit me it still seems like a lot of the teams that get to sectionals and nationals still game the ratings, so those guys are probably not in their proper bracket. Some of them probably are on PEDs too, but whatcha gonna do.
5263
G.O.A.T.
but did you consider that a well placed 90 mph kicker, could be far more effective than a 95 mph with little to no action on it in the same spot?
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Let's say a flat serve is 35% faster than a kick, so if you can serve 100mph kick you can serve 135 flat.
Your 90mph kick serve guy can serve 117mph flat.
And your 95mph flat guy can serve 95mph flat. So it's not a fair comparison.
The fair question is if 95mph flat is better than a 73mph kick.
The answer is maybe, but it's a more compelling question.
J
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Jolly has answered it the way I would have. Besides if you are going to talk about 'work' on the ball, that's a new wrinkle. By the same token, whether it's coming straight at you says absolutely nothing about how easy or difficult it's going to be to return. I made this example above: if it's a reasonably fast kicker jamming you, then it's hard to return even though it's technically in your reach. The whole placement over pace argument is very reductive. You need a combination of work, placement and pace.
FiReFTW
Legend
Jolly can serve 120+, im not saying with great placement but still even 110-115 is far above your 80-90mph range, and hes a rec player.
You cant really say rec player and universaly speak for all rec players.
Theres a huge difference between a 4utr player and a 6utr player.... let alone 8 or 10 or 11.
Even a 70mph serve would be tough or near impissible to handle for a 4utr rec player. But not for a 7utr player.
Hope you get my point.
The answer is not solely dependent on the server either. A really good server will vary their serve selection according to their opponent at any given time. Beyond that, the answer could change during a match. The element of surprise is very effective at times.
I said for “a lot of” rec adults (not all) a combination of that speed combined with precise placement would be difficult to achieve because that would make you an elite server even at a pro level.
I also never argued about just speed. I play with a guy who is a huge server. I have seen your serves too. You too look like a huge server.
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FiReFTW
Legend
I see, yes your probably right about "a lot of" rec adults, ive known quite a few players in the past year and most don't have what I would say a good serve, its fairly slow and has no wicked spin on it and placement is also nonexistant. There are a few who have decent speed up there with my coach (who is a girl) but that speed is nothing special and also the serve is completely flat and much easier to handle compared to my coach who has alot of various spins and the placement of the rec ones is also nonexistant, just get it in the box.
And then there are a few who have quite a fast serve but its flat without much spin, placement starts to get a bit better but nothing special either.
I have honestly yet to play a rec player with both a huge serve and great placement like a friend of mine has who plays with me ocassionaly now (former competitive player and around UTR 11-12) but I do think there are a few very rare ones like that, ive seen one play at a tournament once (one of the better rec players here and around 5.0 level) but I just haven't played a player like that yet so far.
Thanks for the compliment btw, im happy with my serve speed and it got better in the past few months even tho I didn't change anything technically (probably just timing and everything improving), so im confident I still have space for improvment in this area.
That friend of mine (UTR11-12) actually often tells me how good my 1st serve is, and that its a 200kph (124mph) screamer, but I seriously doubt its that fast, maybe around 100-110mph hopefully
Currently im most focused and the main plan is placement now and thats the plan for this summer, work alot on placement with my 1st serve so I can consistently hit wide spots or down the T accurately and close to the lines, that and a ton of work on the kick serve.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Are we measuring simply based on difficulty to return, or also including the next hit by server. Obviously Fed is the best 2 strike server in history if he gets under your 120mph definition. Djoker and Nadal ain't shabby either.
I think your intention is best server that didn't rely on primarily pace ... Roddick, Anderson, Zverev, Isner, Potro, Cilic, Raonic, Tanner (didn't see that one coming did you).
If Fed doesn't qualify ... move the bar to 125 or 130 ... GOAT is best.
What was Sampras 1st serve mph? I assume he goes in the big pace bucket ... but I remember him never missing 1st serves against Agassi ... and it wasn't just pace killing Agassi.
Sampras would pretty regularly serve in the mid 120s on his first serve, and at times he was really consistent with it too. He also had that thing that Fed used to have in spades where he would pull out aces whenever he needed them to get out of trouble. It's like the gravity of being down and about to lose the game would give him the extra focus he need to smack one down the T or out wide for an ace. It got to the point in some matches where you would expect him to do it and he would. Pete was definitely one of the best servers of all time in my book.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Every Agassi fan could tell you about Pete hitting an Ace every single time he frickin needed it. I’m still not over it.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Actually Fed does breach 120 mph regularly. So does Djokovic. Nadal not so much but it's nobody's case that Nadal's serve is as effective as Fedovic.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Amazing how close the serve stats are among top ATP players. I hadn't thought about surface, but Nadal has a higher career service rating on clay than Fed. He makes sure he hits a FH after the serve ... pretty good clay FH.
https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/le...er&surface=all&versusRank=all&formerNo1=false
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
That is exactly why I do not go by that stat to measure serve effectiveness. It usually says more about the effectiveness of the forehand behind the serve.Amazing how close the serve stats are among top ATP players. I hadn't thought about surface, but Nadal has a higher career service rating on clay than Fed. He makes sure he hits a FH after the serve ... pretty good clay FH.
https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/le...er&surface=all&versusRank=all&formerNo1=false
FiReFTW
Legend
Every Agassi fan could tell you about Pete hitting an Ace every single time he frickin needed it. I’m still not over it.
He missed plenty of big important serves, but alot of times he did hit aces or really good serves.
I think the main reason is that he was confident in his serve and went for it and knew he could hit a good one.
Similar to Fed.
I kinda have a similar mentality and when im down 15:40 or so I often have the mentality of "ok I really need a good serve now" and try to ramp it up and really focus and try to place it very wide or close to the T line (my two favorite placements im most confident in) and hit it hard.
And alot of times it gives me an ace or unforced error.
Of course I also miss it, but overall I think it gives better results than just going for a more safe serve, you can do that with your 2nd serve if the 1st fails, but with the 1st you should go for it and risk it a bit specially when ur down and in trouble.
Fortune tends to favor the bold.
But thats just my way of thinking, maybe other people dont agree and do it differently.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yep ... game score pressure has a way of focusing the mind.
Pete did not want to be in rallies with Agassi ... focused his mind on serves.
FiReFTW
Legend
Yep ... game score pressure has a way of focusing the mind.
Pete did not want to be in rallies with Agassi ... focused his mind on serves.
Yeah but even during point play not serve its also important.
When im down and at risk for a break I always tend to think like "Ok my opponent has a chance to break me now, which means he will feel the pressure of taking the opportunity and most likely try to play too passive so this is my chance now"
And this really helps me feel relaxed during these points and try to pressure him and push him because I feel like he can make errors easier now specialy when pressured, since its his "chance" to break me and he doesn't wanna mess it up.
So im very happy with the way im playing these points, now I only need to figure out the solution of when im ahead and when I have chances to break, because in those situations I haven't yet found a solution and tend to feel more "at pressure" because its a good chance and I don't want to let it slip.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yeah but even during point play not serve its also important.
When im down and at risk for a break I always tend to think like "Ok my opponent has a chance to break me now, which means he will feel the pressure of taking the opportunity and most likely try to play too passive so this is my chance now"
And this really helps me feel relaxed during these points and try to pressure him and push him because I feel like he can make errors easier now specialy when pressured, since its his "chance" to break me and he doesn't wanna mess it up.
So im very happy with the way im playing these points, now I only need to figure out the solution of when im ahead and when I have chances to break, because in those situations I haven't yet found a solution and tend to feel more "at pressure" because its a good chance and I don't want to let it slip.
You are already way ahead if you are reacting well to pressure. I was always a much better player in a tournament than practice matches. Everyone feels pressure ... use it to your advantage.
Dragy
Legend
Have another find for you guys, Fed stats of 1st serves, returned vs unreturned. It's obvius some very sharp placement makes serve more dangerous. However, many serves father from the lines still remain unreturned, while some of closer to lines get returned. There are numerous factors contributing to this, and I assume pace is not the least.
*** Keep in mind fault serves are not presented, so placement range is even wider than seen on the pic.
*** Keep in mind fault serves are not presented, so placement range is even wider than seen on the pic.
Yeah, these are interesting charts, but very limited. Fed's got a really good serve, so players, some more than others, are going to guess a bit to get a good return. Fed can see this to some degree and I'm sure he's going to look to maximize his surprise advantage so moving the ball one way and then the other with intention will pay dividends. Unfortunately none of those intricacies can be captured with a simple chart like that.
We can see that anything in the middle third seems to get returned though. Problem with that stat is it's a pretty small sample size, so any conclusions should be a bit suspect. But, given Fed's first serves are somewhere right around 120 give or take, it would seem that 120mph isn't fast enough to hit unreturnable serves down the middle. I wonder what a chart like that would show for Isner or Raonic or one of the other 130mph+ servers.
Dragy
Legend
Here is a small sample of Isner's serves:
Bigger one for Raonic, but only aces highlighted, no unreturned ones:
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
now I only need to figure out the solution of when im ahead and when I have chances to break, because in those situations I haven't yet found a solution and tend to feel more "at pressure" because its a good chance and I don't want to let it slip.
Attacking the opponent's 2nd serve and getting to net is a good technique in these situations. Put them under pressure to come up with a big shot.
Sampras was generally very aggressive on attacking 2nd serves under pressure, and getting to net. Check out his aggression against Safin in the tiebreakers:
5263
G.O.A.T.
I don't think your assumptions are valid. Many people can hit a big serve that they can't put into the box with consistency due to lack of height and poor technique, but the kick serve which rewards the shorter player with a live arm, could very well be much closer to the speed of his avg 1st serve than you suggest. Either way, we are speaking to hypotheticals here anyway, so I met the parameters of a slower serve being more effective than a faster serve. I could have just as well said a slice instead of a kicker.
5263
G.O.A.T.
I don't follow what you mean by saying that when it is coming straight about you say absolutely nothing about how hard it is to return.....of course it does.
And yes, all serves should have work, placement and pace, but they don't....and what we are discussing is which of these can be a main priority in what situations.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I made a very clear example to get my point across but maybe you skipped reading that so I will repeat it again. A fast kick serve bouncing up to my chest and jamming me is easier to return than a slow serve placed away from me without much spin? Exactly in which universe? And no, I don't believe in trying to prioritise what is not a binary choice. It is not at all helpful to oversimplify the serve to that extent.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Are you saying in your chest is easy? or saying in what universe is that easy? Fast or slow is relative, so you need to give speeds for this topic, especially since in general, Kick serves are all considered sort of slow compared to flat and slice serves.
Are you coaching successful servers? I ask that to understand why you would suggest that it isn't extremely important to simplify serving issues to the max extent possible. As an instructor working with top servers, my experience is that you can hardly simplify serving enough and you surely want to do it to the max extent possible with most players.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
chest is easy? Where did you get that from? If you genuinely did not understand, please try reading the ENTIRE sentence again WITH special attention to the punctuation mark at the end. Else not interested if you want to intentionally misconstrue what I am saying.
5263
G.O.A.T.
No, I just don't follow you to understand what you are trying to say...but no big deal or reason to get bent. Take care.
