Will Federer end up with a negative H2H against all 3 main rivals?

Will Federer end up with a negative H2H against his 3 main rivals?


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Deleted member 77403

Guest
To be honest I think the H2Hs are all fairly close to what they would have been even had they all been in their primes together.

Nadal always had led his head to head with Federer, he won 6 of their first 7 matches, and but for a bad choke of a huge lead would have won their first 3 non clay matches, so there is nothing to talk about there. When it comes to head to head Nadal owns Federer, period.

I agree with most of what you say here. But, if Nadal choked in that Miami match, I can say Federer did the same in Rome, in which he actually held a match point on his racquet. And overall Nadal has a better H2H against Federer no doubt, but when he has been thrashed in four matches indoors, I won't say he owns Federer outright, but I will say he is overall better in the match up.
 

merwy

G.O.A.T.
Just wanted to mention that Federer hasn't always had a negative record against Nadal. Federer won their second match, making it 1-1 at the time. After that it always has been in favor of Nadal.
 

romeo8880

G.O.A.T.
Just want to point out that anybody who doesn't consider Federer the GOAT shouldn't even be allowed to discuss tennis. It's not even an argument anymore.
 

SwankPeRFection

Hall of Fame
Does it really matter? I never saw H2H as a direct indicator of who's better. It's more of an indicator of who's playstyle is compantible and who's not. Look at career titles and weeks at #1 for a good indicator of who can string along a better overall winning %.

While this can change from era to era and it seems to get higher and higher every year/era, it's still a good thing to look at. After all, you can't take one player who loses in all tournaments except for one specific major and call him the greatest. It's that he/she is simply super comfortable and confident at that specific tournament, nothing more. They could be like 200 in the world and suck everywhere but there. See what I'm trying to say?
 

Tammo

Banned
Just want to point out that anybody who doesn't consider Federer the GOAT shouldn't even be allowed to discuss tennis. It's not even an argument anymore.

Uh, yeah. If Fed is GOAT with Olympic gold and is considered GOAT,then Nadal cn be without WTF.
 

Hawkeye7

Professional
The whole GOAT discussion is one of the stupidest things ever because we won't ever find a real solution. Who knows what would have happened if Federer was the same generation as Llendl for example? Or Nadal's age. And the talent/skill question is also very subjective. Federer is definitely the most successful player to ever play the game though. That's a fact. Everything else is a waste of time IMO.
 

Polaris

Hall of Fame
Federer 10-18 Nadal
Federer 8-9 Murray
Federer 15-12 Djokovic

Right now Fed only holds a positive H2H against Djokovic.

Interestingly, Federer has never had a positive H2H against either Nadal or Murray (in the case of Nadal it has always been negative). Clearly a sign that these players are a bad matchup for the GOAT.

How about Djokovic, will he also end up with a positive H2H against Federer?

And if he does, what will it mean for Federer's legacy to end with a negative H2H against the top 3 players of his era? Or does it even mean anything?

Yes, it is likely that Djokovic and Murray will also end up with a positive h2h against Federer, given that he is still holding on at the end of his career while they are in the middle of theirs.

No, it does not mean anything for his legacy. As far as performance against the ATP tour as a whole goes, Federer has been untouchable, and that is the only thing that matters.
 

SwankPeRFection

Hall of Fame
Just want to point out that anybody who doesn't consider Federer the GOAT shouldn't even be allowed to discuss tennis. It's not even an argument anymore.

I think it's fairer to say that he's GOHT. (Greatest Of His Time)

If you look at all historical indicators, as sports progress over the years, better and better results can come from a combination of talent/human evolution and sports technology.

I think it's correct to say that what people can achieve in sports today was unheard of back in the day. The same will hold true for future generations... it just doesn't happen a whole lot. Very few have the talent to be GOATs. I personally still consider Michael Jordan the best player in his sport. I think what makes a GOAT is that little something extra that almost makes them seem super-human at how easily they can do things/make certain plays/moves. Jordan had that, Roger has that, etc. Other players can be very good, but you can see them working and having to try very hard to maintain it. The GOATs are the ones that it seems they are just breezing through it like it's nothing.
 

Hood_Man

G.O.A.T.
I think Fed will end up with negative H2H's against all 3, and probably plenty more players before he retires.

I can't agree all three are his greatest rivals though.
 

Joseph L. Barrow

Professional
To be honest I think the H2Hs are all fairly close to what they would have been even had they all been in their primes together.

Nadal always had led his head to head with Federer, he won 6 of their first 7 matches, and but for a bad choke of a huge lead would have won their first 3 non clay matches, so there is nothing to talk about there. When it comes to head to head Nadal owns Federer, period.
Nadal may have lost a big lead to Federer in Miami, but Federer did lose from ahead to Nadal in Dubai 2006, and in the more notable omission on your part, he had multiple match points in Rome before losing-- surely at least as much of a choke as Nadal at 2005 Miami. He also beat Nadal in two Wimbledon finals, and has to this day beaten him every time they've met at the year-end championships; though it is true Nadal would have the winning head-to-head record in any case, I really do think the relationship is significantly more complicated than "Nadal owns Federer."


Djokovic and Federer were evenly matched in the second half of 2007 when Federer was still at his best and Djokovic far from his,
You say they were "evenly matched" because... you've cherry-picked a six-month period in which they were 1-1? Djokovic narrowly won their Canada match, going to a third-set tiebreak, while Federer beat Djokovic at the US Open final in straight sets. A stand-off indeed.

and won 3 of their 5 meetings in 2009 where again it is hard to argue Djokovic was closer to his best than Federer.
More cherry-picking; overall, in 2008-2010, when Federer was past his peak and Djokovic hadn't yet reached his (and by 2010, Federer was certainly the further-removed of the two), Federer led 8-5.

I dont know why people think the matchup would not be close with both in their primes, clearly it would have been. On grass prime Federer would destroy Djokovic, and possibly indoors too, but Djokovic isnt that strong on those surfaces, especialy grass, and wouldnt have even been played Federer much. I would actually give Djokovic atleast a 50% chance on both Australian hard courts and clay, maybe slight favorite on the Australian hard courts where even if it wasnt peak Federer his two convincing straight sets beatdowns of Federer were impressive and telling. As of now Federer leads the head to head.
A 2011 Djokovic would be competitive with a prime Federer head-to-head, but there is no evidence so far that Djokovic can produce that level of play on a long-term basis; he has looked a lot more like his old self this year, and it is historically true that most players who have a streak like Djokovic did last year never do anything like that again (see McEnroe 1984, Vilas 1977). In other words, if we assume that they follow essentially the same career paths in terms of form, but bump Djokovic back to the same age as Federer, it is likely we would see one season in which Djokovic was closely matched with a prime Federer, but several in which he was not.

Murray had his first ever win over Federer in 2006, and has continued to be a thorn in his side in non slam matches ever since. Both in their primes the head to head would probably be similar to now, Murray holding his own and coming up with a number of wins in non slam matches, but Federer owning Murray in the most important matches.
The 2006 Cincinnati match notwithstanding, Federer was much more consistent in best-of-three set matches back in 2004-2007-- especially '04-'06-- than he has been since; in 2005, Federer only lost one best-of-three set match in the entire season, and he held multiple match points in that one loss. I highly, highly doubt Murray could have had a winning best-of-three head-to-head against that Federer.
 
In any sports you look at the head to head if two players or teams are equal in points. Since the mentioned players are nowhere near equal to Federer at this point, it has no relevance.
 
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Smasher08

Legend
The whole GOAT discussion is one of the stupidest things ever because we won't ever find a real solution. Who knows what would have happened if Federer was the same generation as Llendl for example? Or Nadal's age. And the talent/skill question is also very subjective. Federer is definitely the most successful player to ever play the game though.

I think the problem is that "greatness" is such a vague and nebulous concept that it's impossible to achieve a consensus on any single definition.

Similar to you, I find that calling him the most accomplished player of all time is a preferable solution since it's much less prone to vagaries.

Long live the MAPOAT!
 

kragster

Hall of Fame
Nadal may have lost a big lead to Federer in Miami, but Federer did lose from ahead to Nadal in Dubai 2006, and in the more notable omission on your part, he had multiple match points in Rome before losing-- surely at least as much of a choke as Nadal at 2005 Miami. He also beat Nadal in two Wimbledon finals, and has to this day beaten him every time they've met at the year-end championships; though it is true Nadal would have the winning head-to-head record in any case, I really do think the relationship is significantly more complicated than "Nadal owns Federer."

I agree.

You say they were "evenly matched" because... you've cherry-picked a six-month period in which they were 1-1? Djokovic narrowly won their Canada match, going to a third-set tiebreak, while Federer beat Djokovic at the US Open final in straight sets. A stand-off indeed.

You demerit the Canada match as a narrow win but fail to mention that Djokovic had set points in the 1st set of the USO final , was up a break in the 2nd set as well. One can argue about the semantics of what constitutes a close match but I think a win is a win.

A 2011 Djokovic would be competitive with a prime Federer head-to-head, but there is no evidence so far that Djokovic can produce that level of play on a long-term basis; he has looked a lot more like his old self this year, and it is historically true that most players who have a streak like Djokovic did last year never do anything like that again (see McEnroe 1984, Vilas 1977). In other words, if we assume that they follow essentially the same career paths in terms of form, but bump Djokovic back to the same age as Federer, it is likely we would see one season in which Djokovic was closely matched with a prime Federer, but several in which he was not.

This is a generalization so only time can tell what Djoker's 'average prime level' is . If he does indeed go back to a 09/10 sort of level then your argument is valid.
 
Just like Sampras, whom many touted as GOAT before Federer came along, ended up with a negative H2H vs Hewitt and Safin, whom eveyone here considers much lesser players than Nadal, Djokovic or Murray. Yet, who makes an issue about this? No-one.

Your point?
Give me a break. The analogy is false.

Sampras was 10 years older than Hewitt, and the H2H is merely 4-5.

Sampras was 9 years older than Safin, and the H2H is just 3-4.

Both these H2H are very even and very short (not enough matches).

Compare that to Federer's H2H with Nadal and Murray, and Federer is merely 5 years older.

Like I said, the analogy is false. If you don't see that you are either a blind fan or not that sharp. Either way I can't help you.
 
Actually, Fed won his first match against Murray (in Bangkok I think?).
You are right, sir. Fed did have a positive H2H of 1-0 with Murray at one point.

Depends on a lot of factors but If I had to make a guess I'd say yes, Novak will end up with a positive H2H against Fed.
It's tough to tell, but you are probably right. Do you think RoFed is just hunting for a higher slam count at this point, regardless of any other considerations?


Problem is that we first have to define what Fed's era is exactly, many Nadal fans around here constantly yap about Fed's supposed weak era, if Nadal, Novak and Murray are top 3 players of his (Fed's) era then as a consequence they must be weak as well. Either we view 2004-2007 separately or we acknowledge Nadal facing the same field Fed did, it can't go both ways.
This is an extremely interesting topic. You have to consider that the implications (in his matchup with Nadal, for example) are not so detrimental for Federer. The age difference should have benefited Federer at the beginning of their history, because Nadal was 17 while Federer was 22 and entering his prime. I am aware of the clay imbalance, and that it plays a huge factor in the case of Nadal. But the same can be applied to Murray and Djokovic. Federer would have benefited from the age difference at the beginning of the matchups, although now in theory the trend should have been reversed.

The problem is that this is not the case. For example, Murray had a 6-2 advantage in the first half of their matchup, which goes against the common wisdom that Fed's age has hurt him. It's rather the opposite.

Furthemore, it's debatable (to say the least) whether Murray is the 3d best player of Fed's era if we consider guys like Hewitt, Safin and Roddick. The only way that isn't debatable is if we consider Fed's era to be from 2008+ which is beyond ridiculous obviously.
Yes, it is debatable in all sorts of ways. Extremely debatable. I personally think Fed has been tested more in the latter part of his career, but that is a (biased) opinion.

Depends on whom you ask, I personally don't put much stock into this fact because:

-I firmly believe that if they were all the same age the only player of the 3 who would have ended up with a positive H2H with Fed is Nadal.

-I never held H2Hs in such high esteem as most people on this forum seem to do, while I do think Fed's record against Nadal is a blemish on his resumee I don't think it damages Fed's "legacy" to the degree that people around here (and various media talking heads) Do.
I think you may be correct. However, look at the record of Federer with Murray in the first half of their history. 6-2 in favor of Murray, which is much more impressive than their current numbers.

The matchup is of relative importance, but someone could argue so are the slams. It's dangerous to relativize things too much. The best thing to do is get the data and try to explain why things are the way they are.

I think Fed is extremely talented, but I also think he has more weaknesses than many people realize, starting with his mental strength. I can't help to notice sometimes that it seems as if Federer has been told he's destined for greatness so often, that he has believed it to a point that sometimes he feels he shouldn't have to suffer on the court or exert himself to the level that those other "lowly contenders" do.
 
Does it really matter? I never saw H2H as a direct indicator of who's better. It's more of an indicator of who's playstyle is compantible and who's not. Look at career titles and weeks at #1 for a good indicator of who can string along a better overall winning %.

While this can change from era to era and it seems to get higher and higher every year/era, it's still a good thing to look at. After all, you can't take one player who loses in all tournaments except for one specific major and call him the greatest. It's that he/she is simply super comfortable and confident at that specific tournament, nothing more. They could be like 200 in the world and suck everywhere but there. See what I'm trying to say?
Nadal is 5 years younger than Federer and achieved his career grand slam at a younger age. Nadal also won an Olympic Gold in his worst surface, while Federer couldn't do the same in his best surface.
 

ark_28

Legend
Federer 10-18 Nadal
Federer 8-9 Murray
Federer 15-12 Djokovic

Right now Fed only holds a positive H2H against Djokovic.

Interestingly, Federer has never had a positive H2H against either Nadal or Murray (in the case of Nadal it has always been negative). Clearly a sign that these players are a bad matchup for the GOAT.

How about Djokovic, will he also end up with a positive H2H against Federer?

And if he does, what will it mean for Federer's legacy to end with a negative H2H against the top 3 players of his era? Or does it even mean anything?

True with regards to Nadal but he did actually lead Murray 1-0 at one stage.
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
Give me a break. The analogy is false.

Nope, it's valid. Almost each time a champion plays past his peak, he is overtaken by the next generation, which stands to reason. For example, Edberg overtook Lendl by winning their last four matches. Sampras got the better of Lendl as he only faced him when he was past 30, Connors got destroyed by Lendl in their H2H when he lost the last 17 matches they played as he kept showing way past his prime, Borg would have ended with a negative H2H vs McEnroe had he not quit suddenly, etc. The "next generation" almost always takes advantage of the previous one's decline. It's the way of things.

Sampras was 10 years older than Hewitt, and the H2H is merely 4-5.

Sampras was 9 years older than Safin, and the H2H is just 3-4.

Both these H2H are very even and very short (not enough matches).

Sure. And what do you think they would have looked like had Sampras stayed longer? 4-10 vs Hewitt and 4-8 vs Safin? Do you really think this would have helped your case?

Compare that to Federer's H2H with Nadal and Murray, and Federer is merely 5 years older.

Like I said, the analogy is false. If you don't see that you are either a blind fan or not that sharp. Either way I can't help you.

By all means, let's compare this with the H2H vs Murray, ie 8-9. Sure looks much more detrimental to Federer's legacy than being 4-5 vs Hewitt and 3-4 vs Safin, right? (especially when you factor in the 3-0 in slam finals) :roll:

Once again, you have (1) no point, and (2) no clue. But I guess that's what you get for creating threads about the "bigger picture" after watching tennis for a couple of years only. Your lack of persective is to be expected.

Besides, your whole premise is flawed anyway, as these three (except for Nadal) are not Federer's main rivals, but the main rivals of the latter stages of his career, which is quite different. But hey, you already knew that, didn't you? Otherwise, what would be the point of trolling? ;)
 
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zagor

Bionic Poster
You are right, sir. Fed did have a positive H2H of 1-0 with Murray at one point.

Not that it matters that much anyway, I only remember because Murray was talked about as a talented promising youngster, something that is completely and utterly lacking these days unfortunately, I've never seen a worse group of young players in all my years of watching tennis.


It's tough to tell, but you are probably right. Do you think RoFed is just hunting for a higher slam count at this point, regardless of any other considerations?

In short yes, I think he wants to win as many slams as possible and is also one of those guys who truly enjoy the tennis life, not just the game itself but all that comes with it in a package.

This is an extremely interesting topic. You have to consider that the implications (in his matchup with Nadal, for example) are not so detrimental for Federer.

Did you mean to say are detrimental for Fed?

The age difference should have benefited Federer at the beginning of their history, because Nadal was 17 while Federer was 22 and entering his prime.

To be honest I consider Nadal to be a special case in how he matches-up with Fed so while the age difference should have benefited Fed in theory when he was at his peak and Nadal a young up and comer the reality is that Nadal's game even in it's rawest form presented so much trouble for Fed that he sort of needed to adapt and try to modify his game to successfully counter what Nadal's game brings to the table in this specific match-up.

I actually feel Fed these days plays Nadal much better tactic/gameplan wise but his diminished physical skills make it harder for him to execute successfully.

I think Fed would have benefited the most against Nadal if both were the same age for several reasons:

-More time to figure it out the best tactic against him.

-Nadal would not be coming on the scene as an underdog against Fed which is the type of mentality he (Nadal) is most comfortable in.

-Their matches would be more evenly distributed across different surfaces (and Fed would be facing Nadal in off clay slams at Fed's absolute peak) which helps everyone (Fed included) against Nadal almost by default since even though he's great on most surfaces today he's not an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction on them like he is on clay.

-Expected (obviously a guess on my part, the jury is still out on that one) better longevity from Fed, I don't think Nadal would be able to put on kind of performance Fed did last year at FO for example at the age of 30.

Obviously this is all highly hypothetical.




I am aware of the clay imbalance, and that it plays a huge factor in the case of Nadal.

That's the way it is, very few match-ups tennis are evenly distributed across different surfaces, clay is a legit surface as any other.

But the same can be applied to Murray and Djokovic. Federer would have benefited from the age difference at the beginning of the matchups, although now in theory the trend should have been reversed.

Yes, but every benefit Fed had isn't IMO comparable to Novak and Murray facing a 30-31 Fed at the ages of 24-25.


The problem is that this is not the case. For example, Murray had a 6-2 advantage in the first half of their matchup, which goes against the common wisdom that Fed's age has hurt him. It's rather the opposite.

True, but it isn't just about age but mileage, playing level etc. for example Murray got a series of wins over Fed in BO3 format in 2008 when Fed was losing (even badly at times like IW SF to Fish) to people whom he owned under any conditions before (Roddick, Blake, Karlovic, Fish etc.)

At no point during 2004-2006 for example (and even 2007 despite his losses to Canas) Fed looked so vulnerable in BO3 format on HC, in 2008 he was losing to people who barely took sets off him before.

Funny thing is, even say in 2011/2012 (so far) Fed seemed considerably more solid in BO3 matches than he did in 2008, goes to show I guess how many variables go into every year making it unique even though we as fans have a tendency to simplify things (peak Fed, baby Rafa, weak era, strong era etc.)

Yes, it is debatable in all sorts of ways. Extremely debatable. I personally think Fed has been tested more in the latter part of his career, but that is a (biased) opinion.

Well it's a fact Fed was more tested in the latter part of his career, people just have different opinions on whether that was because of his decline, stronger opposition or some combination of both.


The matchup is of relative importance, but someone could argue so are the slams. It's dangerous to relativize things too much. The best thing to do is get the data and try to explain why things are the way they are.

Well obviously it depends on one's viewpoint which is affected by various things, for example the fact that I grew up (more or less) watching Sampras probably influenced my view on the importance on slams because the best player of that era valued it so much highly above everything else (more than any other player today even).

I think Fed is extremely talented, but I also think he has more weaknesses than many people realize, starting with his mental strength. I can't help to notice sometimes that it seems as if Federer has been told he's destined for greatness so often, that he has believed it to a point that sometimes he feels he shouldn't have to suffer on the court or exert himself to the level that those other "lowly contenders" do.

Every player has chinks in his/her armour, that's inevitable, Fed is no exception (even if some Fed fans go overboard with Fed's game is perfect nonsense).
 

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
To be honest I consider Nadal to be a special case in how he matches-up with Fed so while the age difference should have benefited Fed in theory when he was at his peak and Nadal a young up and comer the reality is that Nadal's game even in it's rawest form presented so much trouble for Fed that he sort of needed to adapt and try to modify his game to successfully counter what Nadal's game brings to the table in this specific match-up.

This. Prime Federer physically and skillwise, with today's mindset and tactics against Nadal would eat Nadal for breakfast lunch and dinner, esp. in 2005/2006 when Nadal hardly had a serve.
 

Emet74

Professional
I think Fed is extremely talented, but I also think he has more weaknesses than many people realize, starting with his mental strength. I can't help to notice sometimes that it seems as if Federer has been told he's destined for greatness so often, that he has believed it to a point that sometimes he feels he shouldn't have to suffer on the court or exert himself to the level that those other "lowly contenders" do.

And you still think this after the Delpo match at the OG??

Sure Fed can be vulnerable mentally at times, but mental vulnerability for him, as for most players,is likely a product of insecurity, not arrogance. I don't see Fed as a player unwilling to exert himself in matches. He's had a few blow-out losses in his later years, but still not a ton, and in his best years he virtually always put up a big fight in the matches he lost.

As for the H2H point - well obviously is all depends on how long Fed plays; as many have pointed out he could retire shortly with a positive H2H against Djoko, but if he hangs around 'til 35 who knows . . . Agassi played late and ended up w/ a poor H2H against Fed but I don't read much about that.

People are always on about how Fed was "lucky" in some ways regarding his competition and that's true to a point, but he was also somewhat unlucky to accross a very strong generation 5 years younger than him. Pete didn't have to deal with that, the next serious generation after him was 10 years younger. Similarly today, except maybe Raonic there are few serious next-generation threats looming for Djoko/Murray/Nadal.
 

Magnus

Legend
Serioulsy, who cares?

He has a positive H2H against Nole.

Against Murray he has a negative one (by one match difference), but he won the 3 slam matches they played (please do dare to tell me that Murray wouldn't have gladly give his H2H advantage for those 3, or even just 1, slam)

The only relevant one is Nadal, where Fed leads the H2H on 2/3 surfaces, and Nadal by 1/3. The fact that they played way more clay matches than any other surface shows how great Fed was on clay and how poor Nadal was on HC.
 

jokinla

Hall of Fame
I believe they each received a medal. I don't believe they have to work anything out such as, for example, Federer gets the medal every second weekend.

I heard Wawa gets it only on the weekends as Fed has custody, but he does pay Wawa a huge amount in alimony.
 

Netspirit

Hall of Fame
Sampras was 10 years older than Hewitt, and the H2H is merely 4-5.
Sampras was 9 years older than Safin, and the H2H is just 3-4.

Because old Sampras played baby Hewitt and baby Safin. They were all away from their primes (Hewitt and Safin had yet to reach theirs, Sampras was already past his).

A 5-year difference is more crucial. You get to meet baby Djokovic and baby Murray maybe just a few times, and then, if you have a long career tail, you give them lots of opportunities to skew H2H in their favor.

Sampras retired and did not let Hewitt and Safin build a sizeable H2H advantage over him. Federer is going to keep playing long past his prime, it looks like. But he is playing for records now, and H2Hs do not matter.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Nadal may have lost a big lead to Federer in Miami, but Federer did lose from ahead to Nadal in Dubai 2006, and in the more notable omission on your part, he had multiple match points in Rome before losing-- surely at least as much of a choke as Nadal at 2005 Miami. He also beat Nadal in two Wimbledon finals, and has to this day beaten him every time they've met at the year-end championships; though it is true Nadal would have the winning head-to-head record in any case, I really do think the relationship is significantly more complicated than "Nadal owns Federer."

Federer did not choke in the Rome match. It was an evenly played match the whole way, he went for the forehand on match point, hit a good shot, and it missed by an inch. Anyone who calls that a choke abuses the meaning of the word. It is nothing at all like the Miami match where Nadal had an enormous lead, which Federer never had in the Rome match, and dropped his level of play substantially.

The bottom line is at any point in time Nadal would have a winning record vs Federer, which you admit, so Nadal doesnt even enter the "only because Federer got old topic."



You say they were "evenly matched" because... you've cherry-picked a six-month period in which they were 1-1? Djokovic narrowly won their Canada match, going to a third-set tiebreak, while Federer beat Djokovic at the US Open final in straight sets. A stand-off indeed.

More like I excluded events where Djokovic wasnt yet even ranked inside the top 10, and hadnt even made the semis of a Masters event yet. Kind of makes sense for someone who would go onto to spend 5/6 years and counting as a perennial top 3 player. Even if you count Dubai as when Djokovic was starting to play top 5 caliber tennis for the first time though you have a match prime Federer avoided a straight sets loss by winning a 2nd set tiebreak (Dubai), lost in 3 sets (Canada), and saved a slew of set points in the first two sets en route to a straight set win he could have easily been down a set or even two in (and atleast a rational Federer fan has to admit Djokovic completely choked the 1st set and should have won it) to a developing Djokovic.


More cherry-picking; overall, in 2008-2010, when Federer was past his peak and Djokovic hadn't yet reached his (and by 2010, Federer was certainly the further-removed of the two), Federer led 8-5.

Actually I avoided 2008 strictly since I know ****s motto whenever 2008 is brought up, particularly if one dares brings any matches he lost, "mono, mono, mono". Meanwhile 2010 was probably Djokovic's worst year of tennis ever on the whole. Overall though as you say 2008-2010 was 8-5 for Federer, as far as I can see that is quite competitive, and Federer likely won a much higher percentage of his career slams in that period than Djokovic will end up having.


A 2011 Djokovic would be competitive with a prime Federer head-to-head, but there is no evidence so far that Djokovic can produce that level of play on a long-term basis

Djokovic has not fallen off nearly as much as some of his foolish naysayers think. What are people basing it on, losing matches to Nadal on clay, losing matches on grass. Ridiculous. Even though he won Wimbledon last year he is never going to be some super dominant grass court player, and it still is his worst surface, he did well to win Wimbledon once. Anyone in the top 6 will always have atleast a fighting chance to beat him on grass, even at his best. As for clay, any version of any player will be very likely to lose to Nadal on clay unless Nadal is playing unusually poor on the surface (which almost all concede he was in 2011). He is still the clear player to beat on hard courts, still likely to end the year #1, and that is all anyone can reasonably expect from Djokovic even at his best, not some fantasy untouchable dominance of grass and clay which will never come. At his best he contends and has a chance to win on those sufaces, but that is all. If he wins the U.S Open and does well this fall, his 2012 will look alot more like 2011 than his years before 2011.


The 2006 Cincinnati match notwithstanding, Federer was much more consistent in best-of-three set matches back in 2004-2007-- especially '04-'06-- than he has been since; in 2005, Federer only lost one best-of-three set match in the entire season, and he held multiple match points in that one loss. I highly, highly doubt Murray could have had a winning best-of-three head-to-head against that Federer.

Even Nadal managed to straight set Federer in Miami at 17, nearly three straight set him in Miami at 18, beat him in a best of 3 on lightning fast courts in Dubai. If Nadal can manage this then I am confident Murray, a better best of 3 event hard court player than Nadal and similarily a bad matchup for Federer, would have done just fine. Yes Federer, when not facing Nadal, and not playing on clay, was nearly untouchable in best of 3 and best of 5 for a period, but who did he face otherwise, his pigeons for life Roddick and Hewitt. I am sure prime Murray would be owned by prime Federer in slams, heck he is even by the current Federer, but in best of 3 Murray would still do significant damage, even if possibly not a winning record.
 
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roysid

Hall of Fame
Fed-Murray having 8-9 doesn't matter. Fed has won 3 grand slam finals and lost only 1 big match, olympic final.

similarly djokovic never dominated fed. its 6-5 in slams. And 2 of novak's win came from match points down
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Federer did not choke in the Rome match. It was an evenly played match the whole way, he went for the forehand on match point, hit a good shot, and it missed by an inch. Anyone who calls that a choke abuses the meaning of the word. It is nothing at all like the Miami match where Nadal had an enormous lead, which Federer never had in the Rome match, and dropped his level of play substantially.

he had 2 MPs, missed forehands on both of them. For a player of his calibre , you'd expect him to make those forehands ..... considering in general how good his FH was in that match, those 2 FHs were ridiculously bad misses .....
 

Talker

Hall of Fame
he had 2 MPs, missed forehands on both of them. For a player of his calibre , you'd expect him to make those forehands ..... considering in general how good his FH was in that match, those 2 FHs were ridiculously bad misses .....

Fed has missed some very easy, for him, shots throughout his rivalry with Nadal.
Not taking anything away from Nadal but some of those shots were what any player hopes to get, then he misses. It cost him at least a few wins.
 

6-1 6-3 6-0

Banned
Djokovic not far from reversing the H2H, having won 6 of the last 8 meetings. So yes, Federer will end up with a negative H2H against all of his 3 main 'rivals'.
 

Omega_7000

Legend
Djokovic not far from reversing the H2H, having won 6 of the last 8 meetings. So yes, Federer will end up with a negative H2H against all of his 3 main 'rivals'.

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ledwix

Hall of Fame
Djokovic not far from reversing the H2H, having won 6 of the last 8 meetings. So yes, Federer will end up with a negative H2H against all of his 3 main 'rivals'.

But now it's 16-12 in favor of Federer, similar to the Sampras-Agassi H2H percentage eh. And since Fed won two straight matches, one with a bagel set, therefore Fed will make the rivalry 26-12 clearly. Usually when you get off a slump against a guy it means you're going to never lose another match again right..
 
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illkhiboy

Hall of Fame
But now it's 16-12 in favor of Federer, similar to the Sampras-Agassi H2H percentage eh. And since Fed won two straight matches, one with a bagel set, therefore Fed will make the rivalry 26-12 clearly. Usually when you get off a slump against a guy it means you're going to never lose another match again right..

Y'know, if Federer had won their US Open match last year, he would have a 17-11 edge over Djokovic - not very dissimilar to the 18-10 edge Nadal enjoys over Federer !
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
by the way he is playing does he really remotely seem like a contender? he can lose to anyone does it really matter he loses to nadal,djokovic and murray?
 
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