Women GOATS

NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
Seles at #2 is a little controversial, I'd switch Monica and Martina...then move Seles right off the list entirely and put Serena on it ;)
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
hoodjem said:
Here is a list of the greatest women players of all time. It is from the Wall Street Cheat Sheet.
Go here http://wallstcheatsheet.com/sports/6-top-womens-tennis-players-of-all-time.html/?ref=OB

I find it eccentric, and thus very debatable.

1. Steffi Graf
2. Monica Seles
3. Chris Evert
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Maragaret Court
6. Billie Jean King
Click to expand...
A few of them can be logically argued as the GOAT. I suppose you can argue Monica Seles from a peak value point of view considering she was number one over Graf until the stabbing. Even from a peak value point of view some of these players and others were more dominant than Seles.

I don't see how Billie Jean King can be in the category but I guess it's because she's such a big name. Players like Lenglen, Wills, Connolly and perhaps Marble have better cases than her.
 
J

jrs

Professional
1. Navratilova
2. Court
3. King
4. Graf
5. Evert
6. Serena
7. Venus
8. Seles (with an * due to the attack)
 
kiki

kiki

Banned
Seles is not even top 10

Bueno is, and of course, Lenglen,Willis,Connolly and Lambert Chambers are
 
B

BTURNER

Legend
In chronological order. The candidates are

1. Lenglen
2. Wills
3. Connolly
4. Court
5. Evert
6. Navratilova
7. Graf
8. Serena Williams

IMO, there just aren't ten viable candidates for GOAT. Folks like King, Seles, Henin, Chambers and Bueno might make a top ten list, but they are on the tier below. I don't see how anyone can make a case for King being the greatest player of all-time unless we include doubles as an equal measuring stick, but Seles doesn't even make the top twenty players if we do include doubles!
 
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pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
BTURNER said:
In chronological order. The candidates are

1. Lenglen
2. Wills
3. Connolly
4. Court
5. Evert
6. Navratilova
7. Graf
8. Serena Williams

IMO, there just aren't ten viable candidates for GOAT. Folks like King, Seles, Henin, Chambers and Bueno might make a top ten list, but they are on the tier below. I don't see how anyone can make a case for King being the greatest player of all-time unless we include doubles as an equal measuring stick, but Seles doesn't even make the top twenty players if we do include doubles!
Click to expand...

Great list.
 
AngieB

AngieB

Banned
BTURNER said:
In chronological order. The candidates are

1. Lenglen
2. Wills
3. Connolly
4. Court
5. Evert
6. Navratilova
7. Graf
8. Serena Williams

IMO, there just aren't ten viable candidates for GOAT. Folks like King, Seles, Henin, Chambers and Bueno might make a top ten list, but they are on the tier below. I don't see how anyone can make a case for King being the greatest player of all-time unless we include doubles as an equal measuring stick, but Seles doesn't even make the top twenty players if we do include doubles!
Click to expand...

The best and most logical women's GOAT list I've seen here. Ever. Thanks for posting. These folks who include Seles and not Connolly make me shake my head.

AngieB
 
B

BTURNER

Legend
AngieB said:
The best and most logical women's GOAT list I've seen here. Ever. Thanks for posting. These folks who include Seles and not Connolly make me shake my head.

AngieB
Click to expand...

Once I decided to put those names in a ranked order. Two months later, my family signed commitment papers, 'to get me the help I needed'. Haven't tried since.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
BTURNER said:
Once I decided to put those names in a ranked order. Two months later, my family signed commitment papers, 'to get me the help I needed'. Haven't tried since.
Click to expand...

My family knows I should be committed but haven't done it out of mercy. In other words, you're in good company.:)
 
D

DMP

Professional
urban said:
Fine list by BTurner. Those lists are swarming over the Internet. Recently i found one on the 20 best males. At least the guy has read some books and articles:
http://madcrazyhatter.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/the-20-greatest-male-tennis-players-of-all-time

Does someone know John Bercow. Seems to be a British politician. Has a book out about the 20 greatest Maestros in Tennis.
Click to expand...

He is the Speaker of the House of Commons in the British parliament. Apparently he is a big tennis fan.
 
kiki

kiki

Banned
urban said:
Fine list by BTurner. Those lists are swarming over the Internet. Recently i found one on the 20 best males. At least the guy has read some books and articles:
http://madcrazyhatter.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/the-20-greatest-male-tennis-players-of-all-time

Does someone know John Bercow. Seems to be a British politician. Has a book out about the 20 greatest Maestros in Tennis.
Click to expand...

Very good article.

The more people knows tennis, the more it is clear Laver is the greatest of all

But I miss Kramer and Hoad here.Woodbridge does not, obvioulsy belong, and Emerson is behind them.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
NatF said:
Interesting list but McEnroe above Sampras?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily unreasonable. McEnroe had a lot of great percentage years, won WCT Championship, Year End Majors, Davis Cup and played in an era with really three classic majors.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
pc1 said:
Not necessarily unreasonable. McEnroe had a lot of great percentage years, won WCT Championship, Year End Majors, Davis Cup and played in an era with really three classic majors.
Click to expand...

I can kind of see the arguments, McEnroe at his peak was great and those YEC's tournaments are as good as slams in my mind. Doubles seems to be a significant factor in the assessment of that list two so obviously McEnroe gets boosted by that.

I'd still put Sampras a head though.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
kiki said:
BTW, shouldn´t we have a peak play GOAT list for women?
Click to expand...

How do we do it? Lenglen barely lost games in winning tournaments. Lenglen had some tournaments in which she didn't lose on game and was unbeaten in many years.

Wills did not lose a set for years.

Court won the Grand Slam in 1970 and won about 92% of her career matches with 24 majors. Her peak was almost her whole career until the last couple of years.

Evert was unbeatable for years as was Navratilova.

A friend of mine pointed out to me that Navratilova started using modern racquets while Evert stuck to wood for many of their matches. Once Evert used the modern racquets she was competitive again with Martina.

Connolly won the Grand Slam and nine straight majors.

Marble was unbeaten for two straight years.

Serena Williams has perhaps the most power laden-ed game ever.

Graf won the Golden Slam in 1988 and was incredible for many years in winning 22 majors.

Push comes to shove I guess I would go with Navratilova in her peak years from 1982 to 1986. She won 427 and lost 14 during that period in winning ten majors in that span.
 
kiki

kiki

Banned
Connolly,Court,Graf,Navratilova and Lenglen

Bueno,The 2 Williams,Mandlikova and a tie between Goolagong,Marble,Seles and Wills

My bet
 
U

urban

Legend
Sure, people like Vines, Kramer or Hoad are missing, the order of ranking is always debatable, but whose ranking isn't. Obviously the guy has a sentiment for doubles, which could be a factor for the complete mastery of tennis, which we have already sometimes discussed here. But at least the highlight bios are not that badly researched and give good overviews..
 
U

urban

Legend
For the womens game an outsider pick: Peak Marble was sight to behold, as pc1 writes. When she had recovered from a severe illness, she had indeed one or two perfect seasons, with a good amount of matches played.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
urban said:
Sure, people like Vines, Kramer or Hoad are missing, the order of ranking is always debatable, but whose ranking isn't. Obviously the guy has a sentiment for doubles, which could be a factor for the complete mastery of tennis, which we have already sometimes discussed here. But at least the highlight bios are not that badly researched and give good overviews..
Click to expand...

Agreed. After all these years of reading these so called GOAT lists it really doesn't bother me too much one way or the other unless someone writes something totally outrageous. Clearly players like Vines or Kramer belong. Kramer used to always be considered one of the top few players of all time. Usually in the top five and often ranked number one. It's changed now because people value different categories in evaluating players.
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
kiki said:
This thread is about women

Plenty of male GOAT threads around
Click to expand...

Okay. You're right.

Greatest Woman player from 1900 to 1950-Suzanne Lenglen
1951 to 2000-Margaret Court (very tough with Graf, Navaratilova, Connolly and Evert)
2001 to 2014-Serena Williams
 
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PDJ

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
John Bercow, Speaker has a less than publicity shy wife, should you wish to google.
Also, Alice Marble suffered, as did others, because of WWII in terms of Wimbledon legacy.
 
B

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
kiki said:
Very good article.

The more people knows tennis, the more it is clear Laver is the greatest of all

But I miss Kramer and Hoad here.Woodbridge does not, obvioulsy belong, and Emerson is behind them.
Click to expand...

kiki, If people would research tennis history better they would realize that Rosewall is as great as Laver ;-)
 
kiki

kiki

Banned
BobbyOne said:
kiki, If people would research tennis history better they would realize that Rosewall is as great as Laver ;-)
Click to expand...

well, nobody is perfect

Laver never won the WCT title, the only major he cared about from 1970 on
Rosewall never won Wimbledon, in spite of losing two classic five set finals there ( Neither did Nastase, who lost two finals)
Hoad never won the US Open, as neither did Borg
Connors,Mc Enroe and Sampras never won the French Open
Nadal has never done anything great at the Masters
 
S

Steve132

Professional
BobbyOne said:
kiki, If people would research tennis history better they would realize that Rosewall is as great as Laver ;-)
Click to expand...

The problem with this argument - which you have made repeatedly - is that even Rosewall's contemporaries do not agree with it. The players, journalists and coaches who saw tennis close-up in the 1950's and 1960's are FAR more likely to identify Laver (or, for that matter, Federer or Gonzalez) than Rosewall as the GOAT.
 
PDJ

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
For the love of ...... This is not a thread about Rosewall.... It's not even about men!
 
hoodjem

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
PDJ said:
For the love of ...... This is not a thread about Rosewall.... It's not even about men!
Click to expand...
No matter what the thread, what the topic, or what the forum it's always, always about Rosewall.









(Learn TT history.):wink:
 
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PDJ

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
hoodjem said:
No matter what the thread, what the topic, or what the forum it's always, always about Rosewall.









(Learn TT history.):wink:
Click to expand...
It does get tiresome. And boring. So so boring. If I had any interest in Rosewall before, I certainly don't any more.... Although perhaps the police need to check that he's not been abducted....:)
 
E

eldanger25

Hall of Fame
BTURNER said:
In chronological order. The candidates are

1. Lenglen
2. Wills
3. Connolly
4. Court
5. Evert
6. Navratilova
7. Graf
8. Serena Williams

IMO, there just aren't ten viable candidates for GOAT. Folks like King, Seles, Henin, Chambers and Bueno might make a top ten list, but they are on the tier below. I don't see how anyone can make a case for King being the greatest player of all-time unless we include doubles as an equal measuring stick, but Seles doesn't even make the top twenty players if we do include doubles!
Click to expand...

This list makes a lot of sense. May I ask: what do you think is King's undoing in terms of landing a tier below? Just not enough big titles relative to these eight?
 
pc1

pc1

G.O.A.T.
BTURNER said:
I don't see how anyone can make a case for King being the greatest player of all-time unless we include doubles as an equal measuring stick, but Seles doesn't even make the top twenty players if we do include doubles!
Click to expand...

What I never could understand was how anyone could call King superior to Margaret Court since they played in the same era and Court had a clear head to head advantage over her. Yet many did do that.
 
B

BTURNER

Legend
eldanger25 said:
This list makes a lot of sense. May I ask: what do you think is King's undoing in terms of landing a tier below? Just not enough big titles relative to these eight?
Click to expand...


Mostly I see her as underperforming on slow courts compared to the rest. She avoided the red clay like a virus. Serena would be in the same category but for her great clay season just two years ago with a solid win in Rome and RG for two victories. It ain't pretty numbers on slow clay, but at least its more than one over her own sister!

King threw in more than a few lackadaisical performances when she wasn't really inspired and her career numbers suffered from hanging too long. If you just look and Wimbledon, US national and indoor circuit she is as good as any of the above.
 
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B

BTURNER

Legend
pc1 said:
What I never could understand was how anyone could call King superior to Margaret Court since they played in the same era and Court had a clear head to head advantage over her. Yet many did do that.
Click to expand...
Mostly they are folks who never troubled to learn head to heads. They are in love with Billie Jean the Icon, the feminist, beater of Bobby and the spokeswoman of the tour. Or they are avid wimbledonphiles. The only real numbers that matter come from English lawns..

She was an incredible player, with pitch perfect net play, a great backhand and the one of the greatest tacticians of the sport, but the record simply does not support GOAT.
 
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AngieB

AngieB

Banned
BTURNER said:
Mostly they are folks who never troubled to learn head to heads. They are in love with Billie Jean the Icon, the feminist, beater of Bobby and the spokeswoman of the tour. Or they are avid wimbledonphiles. The only real numbers that matter come from English lawns..

She was an incredible player, with pitch perfect net play, a great backhand and the one of the greatest tacticians of the sport, but the record simply does not support GOAT.
Click to expand...
Billie Jean King's accomplishments in tennis pale in comparison to what she contributed to the women's rights movement and promoting women's equality in sports. Her cause transcended the sport of tennis.

There are many American women who stand above Billie Jean King on the GOAT list, but it is Billie Jean King's name that stands tall at the National Tennis Center and always will.

AngieB
 
B

BTURNER

Legend
AngieB said:
Billie Jean King's accomplishments in tennis pale in comparison to what she contributed to the women's rights movement and promoting women's equality in sports. Her cause transcended the sport of tennis.

There are many American women who stand above Billie Jean King on the GOAT list, but it is Billie Jean King's name that stands tall at the National Tennis Center and always will.

AngieB
Click to expand...

Absolutely. If BJK had taken up softball, instead of tennis as her dad had wanted, I don't know how long we would have had to wait for someone else to organise a successful union for women's tennis players and a supportive tour with sponsorship. Can you see Court, or Goolagong, or Wade Casals or Evert or Navratilova or Austin or Shriver or Mandlikova or anyone else having the skills, the personality and the guts?

In perspective, no one is going to sneer at 6 wimbledon singles, 4 Us opens/ nationals, 1 Aussie and 1 RG alongside all those doubles and mixed majors. I think she can sleep well enough with the trophies, accolades and tennis awards she must have hanging around the house.
 
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E

eldanger25

Hall of Fame
BTURNER said:
Mostly I see her as underperforming on slow courts compared to the rest. She avoided the red clay like a virus. Serena would be in the same category but for her great clay season just two years ago with a solid win in Rome and RG for two victories. It ain't pretty numbers on slow clay, but at least its more than one over her own sister!

King threw in more than a few lackadaisical performances when she wasn't really inspired and her career numbers suffered from hanging too long. If you just look and Wimbledon, US national and indoor circuit she is as good as any of the above.
Click to expand...

Thanks - makes sense to me, particularly since it doesn't sound like she has a surface that potentially compensates for her slow clay record - i.e., somewhere she's leagues above other top tier players historically. (apologies if that's incorrect, my understanding is that BJK is among the best on grass/indoors, but not necessarily so much better than all others).
 
E

eldanger25

Hall of Fame
AngieB said:
Billie Jean King's accomplishments in tennis pale in comparison to what she contributed to the women's rights movement and promoting women's equality in sports. Her cause transcended the sport of tennis.

There are many American women who stand above Billie Jean King on the GOAT list, but it is Billie Jean King's name that stands tall at the National Tennis Center and always will.

AngieB
Click to expand...

Well said - King and Ashe are just the right names to showcase on the National Tennis Center grounds at Flushing. (though they've gotta name something after J.S. Connors there one of these days)
 
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