Roger Federer: Serena Williams may well be best overall tennis player ever

Incognito · May 23, 2018

FrontHeadlock said:
IMO there is just no intellectually consistent argument that makes Serena #1.

If you consider only majors, it has to be Court.

If you consider other factors, Graf blows her away, and Evert and Navratilova have strong cases, especially Evert because of the AO and WTT/RG issues.

I actually think the fact that Serena's best stats came post-30 hurt her overall. 196 weeks at #1 after age 31? Give me a break.

Post 31 is when Serena finally decided to get herself a real tennis coach. It’s remarkable how much she’s achieved post 30. It’s not like she hasn’t proven herself against a deeper field either. I think one of Aneres greatest regret in this sport is not dedicating herself enough from ca. 2004-2011, with her partying and Hollywood life. Plus she had a family tragedy as well and Venus’ health deeply affected her as well.

As one of Serena’s biggest fans, I contend that she will not beat any ATP player inside top 1000. Men have totally different ballgame.

EloQuent · May 23, 2018

captainbryce said:
Hopman Cup. Technically yes an exhibition since it doesn’t grant ranking points, but usually treated like a serious event since it’s a team competition and tuneup for the Australian Open. Players that enter Hopman Cup usually skip out on Brisbane or Sydney.

Actually, they take this tournament quite seriously. Go to 14:25 in the video. They actually have to call the referee after an argument with the umpire about who should get the point.

Back to the point, I never said she can't ace a guy ever. She just can't be competitive in the top 100, maybe 500.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

FrontHeadlock said:
Again, that's fine if you don't think the majors are the end all be all.

But you can't argue on one side that Court's 24 are inflated, while also arguing that Serena's 23 are way better than Evert's 18 (who was basically playing 3 majors a year and voluntarily skipped 3 RGs in her peak years for money reasons) or Graf's 22 (who retired just after turning 30 and smokes Serena in most other stats).

Also, pls don't denigrate the great Mrs. Court.

Graf retiring after 30 was entirely due to the amount of injuries that she was racking up and she finally wanted to settle down and have kids. She was on her last legs in 99 and it would have been a miracle for her to win slams post 99. Anyone could see that. She was even lucky to get away with winning RG that year because Hingis decided to turn into a mental headcase and an arrogant brat all in one go. Hingis was literally 2 points from winning the match iirc.

Winning slams before/after a certain age really doesn't matter. Different players have different careers trajectory's. Navratilova had a different career trajectory from both Chrissy and graf and i don't see people giving her sh1t about it. Its just the way it is. People are acting like players are supposed to play their best tennis from 20 to 29 and as soon as they turn 30 they should suck amd not win any more slams.

Like seriously get real.

And people can argue that court should be ranked lower than the other 4 GOATs (Chrissy also has a claim of being the GOAT so i don't know what you're getting at).

Court faced absolute dire competition in the majority of her AO.

She faced Bueno and King a combined grand total of 3 times and the draw in a lot of them were 5 rounds with margeret getting a bye in the first round.
Thats the equivalent of an international title on todays tour. Also adding the fact that a lot of the world top players didn't come even to the point where it was just australians in the draw it was really more of an Australian championship featuring just.....Australians.

tennis_pro · May 23, 2018

r2473 said:
Sharapova?

lol

FrontHeadlock · May 23, 2018

tennis_pro said:
She has never faced anyone as mentally tough as Nadal or Djokovic in her career not even close.

I actually can't think of anyone she played other than Henin that was a mentally tough player.

Graf yes but they didn't really overlap.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

Thriller said:
Yeah she was 16 years old ranked 50 something and played a competitive set against a former top 40 male player. Not a bad start to a career and of course she has improved loads from then.

Most women wouldn't have been able to win a single game. More testimony to the Williams greatness.

At 16 serena wasn't in the top 100. She was 300+

Thriller · May 23, 2018

Zhilady said:
That's an interesting way of twisting things.

"I didn't know it would be that difficult. I played shots that would have been winners on the women's circuit and he got to them very easily," said Serena.

Yes..that is called testosterone not talent. Men get that for free. It is not what greatness is made of.

"They wouldn't have had a chance against anyone inside the top 500 because today I played like someone ranked 600th to keep it fun," was Braasch's assessment.

Yes. Raonic would easily beat Serena. Serena is a much better player than Raonic. The only things Raonic does better is be taller, stronger and faster and he had no say in the matter, nature did when it made him male.

Raonic as a woman wouldn't be top 500 on the WTA. Peak Serena as a man would have been ATP No. 1. No doubt about it. She is right up there at the top and for me the best.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

FrontHeadlock said:
I actually can't think of anyone she played other than Henin that was a mentally tough player.

Graf yes but they didn't really overlap.

Henin mentally tough........You really don't watch the wta do you.

FrontHeadlock · May 23, 2018

Incognito said:
Post 31 is when Serena finally decided to get herself a real tennis coach. It’s remarkable how much she’s achieved post 30. It’s not like she hasn’t proven herself against a deeper field either. I think one of Aneres greatest regret in this sport is not dedicating herself enough from ca. 2004-2011, with her partying and Hollywood life. Plus she had a family tragedy as well and Venus’ health deeply affected her as well.

As one of Serena’s biggest fans, I contend that she will not beat any ATP player inside top 1000. Men have totally different ballgame.

Lmao, please spare me this literal BS. "Oh she only took it seriously after 30"

Please tell me which really good player she had to contend with post-30. There were none.

Thriller · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
At 16 serena wasn't in the top 100. She was 300+

She rose very quickly (as the most talented do) I think by the Aus Open 98 she was ranked in the 50s.

Incognito · May 23, 2018

tennis_pro said:
She has never faced anyone as mentally tough as Nadal or Djokovic in her career not even close.

Nadal? That Nadal who received bakery products from Gaudio because he couldn’t handle the argentinian crowd?

Djokovic? That guy who double faults at Championship points?

FrontHeadlock · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
Henin mentally tough........You really don't watch the wta do you.

It's relative. She was mentally tough for the WTA, which is basically a tour of headcases.

tennis_pro · May 23, 2018

FrontHeadlock said:
I actually can't think of anyone she played other than Henin that was a mentally tough player.

Graf yes but they didn't really overlap.

Yes I agree Henin is the only player who was both an ATG and mentally tough. She handled Serena well.

Sharapova hasn't beaten Serena in 14 years despite being 6 years younger, it's a joke to call her mentally tough. Federer did better against Nadal on clay alone.

tennis_pro · May 23, 2018

Incognito said:
Nadal? That Nadal who received bakery products from Gaudio because he couldn’t handle the argentinian crowd?

Djokovic? That guy who double faults at Championship points?

trololo

Zhilady · May 23, 2018

Thriller said:
Yes..that is called testosterone not talent. Men get that for free. It is not what greatness is made of.

Yes, and what Serena has are called feet and she got them for free. It's not what greatness is made of.

Yes. Raonic would easily beat Serena. Serena is a much better player than Raonic. The only things Raonic does better is be taller, stronger and faster and he had no say in the matter, nature did when it made him male.

Just like nature gave Serena Williams better movement than Esther Vergeer?

She is right up there at the top and for me the best.

Yes, and for me, Tomic is the best, just because.

Incognito · May 23, 2018

FrontHeadlock said:
Lmao, please spare me this literal BS. "Oh she only took it seriously after 30"

Please tell me which really good player she had to contend with post-30. There were none.

Not Serena’s fault they couldn’t beat her.

True Fanerer · May 23, 2018

Explain this @Thriller

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

Thriller said:
She rose very quickly (as the most talented do) I think by the Aus Open 98 she was ranked in the 50s.

Nope

From wiki

Williams did not play a tournament in 1996.[citation needed] The following year, she lost in the qualifying rounds of three tournaments,[citation needed] before winning her first main-draw match in November at the Ameritech Cup Chicago.[63] Ranked No. 304, she upset No. 7, Mary Pierce, and No. 4, Monica Seles,[64][65] recording her first career wins over top 10 players and becoming the lowest-ranked player in the Open Era to defeat two top-10 opponents in one tournament.[1]She ultimately lost in the semifinals to No. 5, Lindsay Davenport.[66] She finished 1997 ranked No. 99.[67]

Thriller · May 23, 2018

Zhilady said:
Yes, and what Serena has are called feet and she got them for free. It's not what greatness is made of.

Just like nature gave Serena Williams better movement than Esther Vergeer?

Yes, and for me, Tomic is the best, just because.

Vergeer again? Show me the strength in depth of that tour again? The 128 draw? The world ranking list that doesn't end at 200?
No comparison.

Vanilla Slice · May 23, 2018

Federer has been known for his good sense of humor.

Like a fine wine, his jokes get better with age.

Zhilady · May 23, 2018

Thriller said:
Vergeer again? Show me the strength in depth of that tour again? The 128 draw? The world ranking list that doesn't end at 200?
No comparison.

Serena again? Show me the strength in depth of that tour again? The best-of-5 matches? The female player who can beat a top 100 male player?

Deleted member 756486 · May 23, 2018

Incognito said:
Nadal? That Nadal who received bakery products from Gaudio because he couldn’t handle the argentinian crowd?

Djokovic? That guy who double faults at Championship points?

Mury GOAT

Thriller · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
Nope

From wiki

Williams did not play a tournament in 1996.[citation needed] The following year, she lost in the qualifying rounds of three tournaments,[citation needed] before winning her first main-draw match in November at the Ameritech Cup Chicago.[63] Ranked No. 304, she upset No. 7, Mary Pierce, and No. 4, Monica Seles,[64][65] recording her first career wins over top 10 players and becoming the lowest-ranked player in the Open Era to defeat two top-10 opponents in one tournament.[1]She ultimately lost in the semifinals to No. 5, Lindsay Davenport.[66] She finished 1997 ranked No. 99.[67]

She was ranked 53 at the Aus Open 98 after making the semi final of Sydney which she entered as a qualifier.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

tennis_pro said:
Yes I agree Henin is the only player who was both an ATG and mentally tough. She handled Serena well.

Sharapova hasn't beaten Serena in 14 years despite being 6 years younger, it's a joke to call her mentally tough. Federer did better against Nadal on clay alone.

Where's this mental toughness you people keep screaming of that Henin had.

The girl was scared of Venus and lost to bartoli because of it.

She retired in a GS final due to a "Stomach bug"and when it came down to finally winning wimbledon she choked against her pidgeon.

She retired in the prime of her career because she was too "tired" then comes back hoping to win wimbledon then ultimately fails and retires again the following year.

All her cheating antics against serena and kim suggest she can't face her opponents fairely without putting off her opponent.

Seriously where's this mental toughness that you speak of

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

Thriller said:
She was ranked 53 at the Aus Open 98 after making the semi final of Sydney which she entered as a qualifier.

Wrong again she was ranked 96. Seriously dude where are you getting your info from

Thriller · May 23, 2018

Zhilady said:
Serena again? Show me the strength in depth of that tour again? The best-of-5 matches? The female player who can beat a top 100 male player?

Yes. WTA is a global tour fiercely contested by thousands of players from all over the world.

Best of 5 is not harder just different.

No female player can beat a top 100 player. No featherweight boxer could beat a heavyweight player but there are plenty of featherweights better than heavyweights and plenty of female tennis players better than males.

tennis_pro · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
Where's this mental toughness you people keep screaming of that Henin had.

Doing a 3 surface Slam ownage of Serena in the same season that Serena won the AO should be enough LMAO.

Man of steel said:
The girl was scared of Venus and lost to bartoli because of it.

How many times out of 9 matches they played were after the 2003 AO? ONE.

Man of steel said:
She retired in a GS final due to a "Stomach bug"and when it came down to finally winning wimbledon she choked against her pidgeon.

She retired in the prime of her career because she was too "tired" then comes back hoping to win wimbledon then ultimately fails at retires again the following year.

All her cheating antics against serena and kim suggest she face her opponents squarely without putting off her opponent.

Seriously where's this mental toughness that you speak of

If she wasn't tough what does that make Serena when she lost to this mug so many times and actually trails her in Slam meetings? Not to mention losing to her while being at her career best level at the 2003 FO LMAO.

Thriller · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
Wrong again she was ranked 96. Seriously dude where are you getting your info from

The WTA website. You?

Thriller · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
Wrong again she was ranked 96. Seriously dude where are you getting your info from

You are wrong. She was ranked 96 before Sydney and was up to 53 by the start of the Australian Open.

Chadillac · May 23, 2018

EloQuent said:
Back to the point, I never said she can't ace a guy ever. She just can't be competitive in the top 100, maybe 500.

#500 is a very good player, would beat her 0-0. She would lose to juniors and college players.

Some who post on this forum could be her in her current shape.

tennis_pro · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
Wrong again she was ranked 96. Seriously dude where are you getting your info from

LMAO. Yes she was almost top 50 before the AO started. The rankings were just confirmed the week the AO commenced.

Zhilady · May 23, 2018

Thriller said:
Yes. WTA is a global tour fiercely contested by thousands of players from all over the world.

And none of them is as "good" as Esther Vergeer, because she achieved more in her tour than Serena has in hers.

Best of 5 is not harder just different.

Just like the WTA tour is not harder than the handicapped tour, just different?

No female player can beat a top 100 player. No featherweight boxer could beat a heavyweight player but there are plenty of featherweights better than heavyweights

Nope.

and plenty of female tennis players better than males.

Yes, and plenty of handicapped players better than able-bodied players.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

tennis_pro said:
Doing a 3 surface Slam ownage of Serena in the same season that Serena won the AO should be enough LMAO.

How many times out of 9 matches they played were after the 2003 AO? ONE.

If she wasn't tough what does that make Serena when she lost to this mug so many times and actually trails her in Slam meetings? Not to mention losing to her while being at her career best level at the 2003 FO LMAO.

Wow amazing in 1 year. The year after serena had her worst year on tour and returned fat, unranked at number 81 in 07. Oh that year haha.Yeah i'm sure those were great wins against an unfit serena. Henin really showed her that year

Too bad she choked against Bartoli of all people in her supposed "best year".

Venus is still around able to play matches. She hasn't gone anywhere.

I don't see henin around

.

I didn't realise cheating your way through a match made you tough. Maybe Henin should have done more of it then she might not have retired like mental weakling that she was allowing serena to finally rectify that Slam h2h.(At least serena has the overall h2h which is all that matters)

Awww your tired *sniff *sniff....wanna retire?

Oh please

Mentally tough my A**

titoelcolombiano · May 23, 2018

C'mon Fed, I respect your opinion but Serena would struggle to break into the ATP top 100 and that is being generous.

No doubt a GOAT contender in women's tennis though.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

Thriller said:
The WTA website. You?

sorry thought you said she was ranked 56 before sidney

AiRFederer · May 23, 2018

Why is this so hard to understand? Federer is the figurehead of Tennis, and will stay influential until he dies if he plays his cards right. He SHOULD stay political and his answers SHOULD stay like it is.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

I can't even imagine retiring in a GS final while being down 3-6 0-2

Umbeliebable.

Midaso240 · May 23, 2018

Oh Roger,why did you have to say this? The dumbest thing he's ever said. I'm so so sick of this PC,equality crap that is taking over everything. Unfortunately my favourite sport,tennis is the sport where it is worst because no one talks about whether women's golfers,basketball players,track & field athletes,swimmers etc. are greater than their male counterparts...

tennis_pro · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
Wow amazing in 1 year. The year after serena had her worst year on tour and returned fat, unranked at number 81 in 07. Oh that year haha.Yeah i'm sure those were great wins against an unfit serena. Henin really showed her that year

The same unfit Serena who went through the entire draw, beat top tenners in Petrova, Jankovic and then trashed Sharapova in the final? That unfit Serena?

Like she's ever been fit LMAO. Change the "i" to "a" and you'll get it right.

Man of steel said:
Too bad she choked against Bartoli of all people in her supposed "best year".

Venus is still around able to play matches. She hasn't gone anywhere.

I don't see henin around .

She's won so many Slams (or any big titles for that matter) since 2009, yeah.

When you're not as tall as a man/Venus and don't have such serve to keep you in the game no wonder you have to work harder and burn out earlier. The amount of energy that Henin put into her wins are multiple times that of Venus. I have never seen a WTA player that size who was able to generate as much power as Henin.

Man of steel said:
I didn't realise cheating your way through a match made you tough. Maybe Henin should have done more of it then she might not have retired like mental weakling that she was allowing serena to finally rectify that Slam h2h.(At least serena has the overall h2h which is all that matters)

I thought it wouldn't rattle the mental monster like Serena at her career best level? Cheated yeah LMAO. Lost a first serve. LMAOOOO[/QUOTE]

Sysyphus · May 23, 2018

r2473 said:
So what does the word "God" mean?

According to the ignostic, not much at all

EloQuent · May 23, 2018

If you think about it it's a clever move for Federer to promote the concept of a 20 slam club with Serena and Graf above him. Because then he stands alone in the men.

Deleted member 756486 · May 23, 2018

Sysyphus said:
According to the ignostic, not much at all

You mean agnostic? Or is that something I’ve never heard of?

Midaso240 · May 23, 2018

Pre-Fed/Nadal,Sampras was named the greatest player of all time by a tennis magazine ahead of Graf (22 slams),Evert,Navratilova (18 slams each) why would things change now? They rated him ahead even with an 8 slam differential,why on earth would things change now?

Sysyphus · May 23, 2018

paranoidandroid said:
You mean agnostic? Or is that something I’ve never heard of?

"Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the term god has no coherent and unambiguous definition."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

For the ignostic, even agnostics go too far because they are implicitly conceding that there is something well-defined (god) to be on the fence about.

Man of steel · May 23, 2018

tennis_pro said:
The same unfit Serena who went through the entire draw, beat top tenners in Petrova, Jankovic and then trashed Sharapova in the final? That unfit Serena?

Like she's ever been fit LMAO. Change the "i" to "a" and you'll get it right.

She's won so many Slams (or any big titles for that matter) since 2009, yeah.

When you're not as tall as a man/Venus and don't have such serve to keep you in the game no wonder you have to work harder and burn out earlier. The amount of energy that Henin put into her wins are multiple times that of Venus. I have never seen a WTA player that size who was able to generate as much power as Henin.

I thought it wouldn't rattle the mental monster like Serena at her career best level? Cheated yeah LMAO. Lost a first serve. LMAOOOO

[/QUOTE]
You must be either blind or a fool to see that serena wasn't unfit and to say she's never been fit? WTF do you call 2012-13 when she played 144 matches in 2 years. Went 28-0 on her worst surface (clay) something Henin couldn't even manage to do.
Yeah in 06 she was umbelievably fit ranked outside the top 100 and playing only 16 matches.

Sure venus hasn't won any big titles if you just consider slams since 09. At least she has made multiple finals. Something Henin couldn't even manage and yet Henin doesn't have the excuse of Sjogrens.

She just cried off and retired at the next sight of an injury.

Thats complete BS. Venus has played more matches and has been around longer than henin (Nearly twice as many matches). Plus Venus is a successful doubles player which adds to the amount of energy exerted during a tournament.

Dude you are completely talking out of a horses A** on each an every single point. You really need to dial it back down before you hurt yourself with that stupidity.

tennisaddict · May 23, 2018

This is classic Fed, saying he is the GOAT by saying something totally contrary

Deleted member 756486 · May 23, 2018

Sysyphus said:
"Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the term god has no coherent and unambiguous definition."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

For the ignostic, even agnostics go too far because they are implicitly conceding that there is something well-defined (god) to be on the fence about.

That’s interesting never heard of that, Pastafarian is my religion.

https://www.venganza.org/

Chadillac · May 23, 2018

paranoidandroid said:
That’s interesting never heard of that, Pastafarian is my religion.
https://www.venganza.org/

Certain religons make you immune from blood testing. Not sure why people dont covert

tennis_pro · May 23, 2018

Man of steel said:
You must be either blind or a fool to see that serena was unfit and to say she's never been fit? WTF do you call 2012-13 when she played 144 matches in 2 years. Went 28-0 on her worst surface (clay) something Henin couldn't even manage to do.
Yeah in 06 she was umbelievably fit ranked outside the top 100 and playing only 16 matches.

Sure venus hasn't won any big titles if you just consider slams since 09. At least she has made multiple finals. Something Henin couldn't even manage and yet Henin doesn't have the excuse of Sjogrens.

She just cried off and retired at the next sight of an injury.

Thats complete BS. Venus has played more matches and has been around longer than henin (Nearly twice as many matches). Plus Venus is a successful doubles player which adds to the amount of energy exerted during a tournament.

Dude you are completely talking out of a horses A** on each an every single point. You really need to dial it back down before you hurt yourself with that stupidity.

1) Unfortunately Henin never enjoyed a complete lack of competition that Serena did after 2007. I mean my God has Serena racked up so many free Slams. Who did she beat on that clay court? Sharapova? LMAO
2) When you play 3 tournaments a year no wonder you still have the stamina when you're in your 30s
3) LMAO at *****in at someone for retiriring due to having a chronic elbow injury while being a fan of someone who took a year off after stepping on broken glass LMAO
4) yeah doubles, very taxing, because Venus/Serena have played soooo many doubles tournaments too btw hehe playing like 2 tournaments a year at most

Serena the weak era champion. Graf would've cleaned her clock if they played at the same time.

r2473 · May 23, 2018

Sysyphus said:
"Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the term god has no coherent and unambiguous definition."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

For the ignostic, even agnostics go too far because they are implicitly conceding that there is something well-defined (god) to be on the fence about.

Well god damn

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