mike danny
Bionic Poster
The Djokodal era was 2011-2013 which was indeed stronger. But it was stronger than some of Djokodal's years too, like 2010 and 2017 for Nadal and 2014-2016 for Djokovic.
So again, Federer doesn't have to be singled out.
Nadal had the toughest competition out of any player in history
- Thread starter REKX
- Start date
So again, Federer doesn't have to be singled out.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
44.5% of biased voters is still sad.
Did you expect EVERYONE to vote by bias? I think there's some objective Fed fan too, somewhere in the world
ADuck
Legend
Not sure really. I knew before voting what the results would be, but I still expected it to be even more skewed than it is now. Maybe they're softening up?44.5% of biased voters is still sad.
Did you expect EVERYONE to vote by bias? I think there's some objective Fed fan too, somewhere in the world
Didnt say you were a haterSorry but I don't hate Fed, so those questions you posed all have easy answers. Fed reached 5 FO finals because he's a great player, I think he is overrated by his fans in general, but he's still the best ever. You can say clay had weaker competition than hard or grass, but only because there's a higher amount of hard and grass tournaments than clay. Hard and grass are much more similar than clay and hard, if you argue otherwise, that means grass has the weakest competition out of all 3 surfaces. If you agree, this makes Nadal's success even more impressive since 3 out of 4 slams do not favour his style of play, compared with Federer. Pick which way you wanna go there
See? Two can play at this game
. Well i dont disagree, and i have definetly no intention of making Rafa look weak. Im just saying you can easily find stats and "truths" that fit your reality. Just like you say, two can play this game, you can choose to live In whatever reality you want to. In the end a slam is a slam, no matter the draw, surface, year etc.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Except Djokovic is losing by majority, so if any bias is exposed its the anti-Djokovic one.
abmk
Bionic Poster
except they are "supposed" to be the best of their gen. Henman/Ancic never were.
and curiously enough, just like all the BSers, leaving out Nadal for the Federer competition.
younger Nadal, Roddick,Hewitt, old Agassi, Safin > OldFed, Stan&Murray
and by a clear distance.
abmk
Bionic Poster
again, cluelessness at its finest.
1. its not a streak if you have had losses. just call it a record.
2. Federer lost to Soderling in RG 2010 and Djokovic in RG 2012. so that's 2 losses vs non-Nadal opponents at RG in that time period.
3. Djokovic lost to Kohlscreiber in RG 2009, Melzer in 10, Federer in 11, Wawrinka in 15 and Thiem in 17. So that's 5 losses in that time period.
and don't say you counted the "streak" up until before their losses at RG 2012 and RG 2017. That is bullsh*t exclusion.
and finally, without Nadal, Djokovic's competition at RG from 2012 would've been very very weak.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
We'll have to add 2014-16 Nadal too.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Add to that that noone in the history of tennis has won easier Majors on other surfaces than his favourite, and it is getting clear what those... what, 35? pages, are about.
I actually am amazed that some people continue to argue with the vamosalaplayans.
After all, they defend their raison d'etre, so they are not giving up. Ever.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
..
abmk
Bionic Poster
correction : he got dominated by Djokovic in that RG 2015 final. By far, Nadal's worst CC season from 2005 onwards. He was losing left right that clay season to others as well. 2 losses to fognini, thrashed by Murray in Madrid final, 1 loss to Stan.
QFs : Nalby in AO 04, Agassi in USO 04, Roddick in USO 07 etc. played clearly better than Nadal did in the RG 2015 QF. Can give Djokovic credit for the mental aspect of beating Nadal at RG, but nothing more than that.
It’s clear Fed didn’t have the baseline weapons to trouble peak djoker over BO5. If he had his FH from 2012 and earlier he probably would’ve won W14 and USO 15. W 15 a 5 setter.
His new offensive rushing game works well over 3 sets but is very hard to maintain over a 5 set match. Yes W/USO15 didn’t go 5 but there’s a different pressure to a GS final than Dubai or Cincy final.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
@abmk
@KINGROGER
2004-06 best opponents:
nadal 2 titles, 1 final, 0 semifinals, 1 quarterfinal
roddick 0 titles, 3 finals, 1 semifinal, 2 quarterfinals
hewitt 0 titles, 2 finals, 2 semifinals, 4 quarterfinals
safin 1 title, 1 final, 0 semifinals, 0 quarterfinals
total: 3 titles, 7 finals, 3 semifinals, 7 quarterfinals
their score against Federer: 3-10
2014-16 best opponents:
murray 1 title, 3 finals, 3 semifinals, 4 quarterfinals
federer 0 titles, 3 finals, 4 semifinals, 1 quarterfinal
wawrinka 3 titles, 0 finals, 3 semifinals, 3 quarterfinals
nadal 1 title, 1 final, 0 semifinals, 2 quarterfinals
total: 5 titles, 7 finals, 10 semifinals, 10 quarterfinals
their score against Djokovic: 4-11
@KINGROGER
2004-06 best opponents:
nadal 2 titles, 1 final, 0 semifinals, 1 quarterfinal
roddick 0 titles, 3 finals, 1 semifinal, 2 quarterfinals
hewitt 0 titles, 2 finals, 2 semifinals, 4 quarterfinals
safin 1 title, 1 final, 0 semifinals, 0 quarterfinals
total: 3 titles, 7 finals, 3 semifinals, 7 quarterfinals
their score against Federer: 3-10
2014-16 best opponents:
murray 1 title, 3 finals, 3 semifinals, 4 quarterfinals
federer 0 titles, 3 finals, 4 semifinals, 1 quarterfinal
wawrinka 3 titles, 0 finals, 3 semifinals, 3 quarterfinals
nadal 1 title, 1 final, 0 semifinals, 2 quarterfinals
total: 5 titles, 7 finals, 10 semifinals, 10 quarterfinals
their score against Djokovic: 4-11
abmk
Bionic Poster
yeah, only you forgot to mention : Federer won 8 slams out of the 12, while Djokovic won 6 out of 12.
Also Federer had quite a few more opponents with the depth being significantly more -- older Agassi, Nalbandian, Davydenko, Coria, Moya, Gaudio,Henman,Ancic, Gonzalez ....all doing really well on their favored surfaces/conditions ....clearly better than ferrer,tsonga,berdych,cilic,raonic, nishi,dimi from 14-16 as a group.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
they looked better because the top players let them.
without champions everybody looks good.
abmk
Bionic Poster
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
nope, they looked better because they were better.
you wouldn't know since you didn't watch any tennis at that time. So shooo ......
oh and 8 slams/12 for Federer quite clearly better than 6 slams out of 12 for Djokovic
and federer did it in a tougher 3 year period to the boot.
wins over top-10 in grand slams by the players you mentioned in 2004-06:
Agassi 2
Nalbandian 2
Davydenko 3
Coria 2
Moya 0
Gaudio 2
Henman 0
Ancic 2
Gonzalez 1
(Blake 1)
(Ljubicic 0)
wins over top-10 in grand slams by the players you mentioned in 2014-06:
ferrer 1
tsonga 3
berdych 2
cilic 4
raonic 2
nishikori 5
dimitrov 1
(gasquet 3)
(del potro 2)
Despite having to face much better top players they don't seem to have done worse.
abmk
Bionic Poster
LOL, they didn't face much better top players at all. Not even better, let alone much better.
what those stats won't tell you that Agassi faced Federer of all people in top 10 in QF of both USO 2004&AO 05.
else he'd have more top 10 wins.
what it won't tell you is that Agassi took peak fed to 5 playing a pretty good match in USO 04.
what it won't tell you is that Agassi beat Blake who was definitely playing top 10 tennis at USO in 05 (even if he was ranked #49) in a high quality 5-setter.
what it won't tell you is that Nalbandian took out Kuerten who was actually playing some good tennis at RG 04 (had taken out Federer), even if he was ranked 30 (IIRC).
What it won't tell you is that Nalbandian would've probably beat any other top 10 player in Federer half's in AO 04, but he had to face federer himself in the QF) and lost in a tight 4-set match.
etc. etc...
that's why I keep telling you. Go and actually understand what happened in those years, watch some tennis ...
---
Baghdatis beat 3 top 10 opponents in AO 06 alone and one more in Wim 06 -- total 4 of them in one year alone. doesn't prevent you a**** from ridiculing him.
We have people like you (&others) comparing his run to Anderson's in USO 17. LOL !
Last edited:
Stats are all well and good but as you say need to be taken in context. Some good examples.
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Oooh the eye test.
goodbye
goodbye
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
Nadal won 2 slams in 2005-06 and 2 slams in 2017-18 (or 3 after today's final).
Federer won 10 slams until AO07 and 3 slams in 2017-18.
Opponents during peak are much more important than the opponents outside peak. Otherwise we could say Zverev and Shapovalov are Rosewall's and Laver's opponents, since they're still alive
D
Deleted member 757377
Guest
wins over top-10s:
2004-06
federer 52
nadal 26
safin 18
ljubicic 16
hewitt 14
ferrero 13
davydenko 10
nalbandian 10
gonzalez 10
roddick 9
agassi 9
blake 9
ferrer 9
robredo 8
baghdatis 7
ancic 7
haas 7
coria 6
2014-16
djokovic 61
federer 33
murray 33
nishikori 22
wawrinka 20
nadal 17
raonic 13
cilic 12
tsonga 12
berdych 10
kyrgios 10
dimitrov 9
lopez 9
anderson 8
monfils 7
simon 7
del potro 6
gasquet 6
thiem 6
karlovic 6
gulbis 6
dolgopolov 6
2004-06
federer 52
nadal 26
safin 18
ljubicic 16
hewitt 14
ferrero 13
davydenko 10
nalbandian 10
gonzalez 10
roddick 9
agassi 9
blake 9
ferrer 9
robredo 8
baghdatis 7
ancic 7
haas 7
coria 6
2014-16
djokovic 61
federer 33
murray 33
nishikori 22
wawrinka 20
nadal 17
raonic 13
cilic 12
tsonga 12
berdych 10
kyrgios 10
dimitrov 9
lopez 9
anderson 8
monfils 7
simon 7
del potro 6
gasquet 6
thiem 6
karlovic 6
gulbis 6
dolgopolov 6
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
A quick bump to this thread since I found an interesting metric on ultimatetennisstatistics. Participation percentage is a measure of how many top players play a Slam. Nadal's 2017 USO win had the lowest participation percentage from from any Slam win among the Big 3 at just over 80% and he also has won 5 Slams with a participation percentage under 90%. Federer also has won 5 Slams with a participation percentage under 90%. Djokovic has never won a Slam with a participation percentage under 90% which is another argument that supports he had the toughest competition among the 3.
http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4742&tab=events&level=G&result=W
http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=3819&tab=events&level=G&result=W
http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4920&tab=events&level=G&result=W
http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4742&tab=events&level=G&result=W
http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=3819&tab=events&level=G&result=W
http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4920&tab=events&level=G&result=W
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Nadal defeated Del Potro (a GS winner who made Djokovic cry at the Olympics 2016 and defeated Federer) at the US Open 2017. Nadal also beated Anderson, the Wimbledon "murder" of Federer and a 2 times GS finalist. So stop crying with the US Open 2017. The US Open 2017 still had a harder draw than AO 2018 or RG 2016 (Del Potro is better on hard courts than Murray on clay).
Also, Djokovic didn't have to face peak Federer. Nadal faced both peak Federer and peak Djokovic, which supports he had the toughest competition among the Big 3.
Federer had a tough competition in the late stage of his career, no doubt. But between 2003 and 2007 Roger won 12 Majors without peak Nadal or peak Djokovic.
Last edited:
If participation percentage isn't the actual list of players played against then it's 'name dropping'.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Who made Djokovic cry at the Olympics?
You can't be taken seriously with rebuttals like those. USO 2017 was missing Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Nishikori and Raonic (the top 5 from 2016) and he didn't face a top 20 player in the entire draw. It is what it is and you can only play who is in front of you but it is the weakest Slam win from any of the Big 3. Also, Djokovic faced peak Federer as well just not as often.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
It's a measure of the top players in the entire field so not really name dropping since it's a measure of the best players in the world.
It's name dropping if one's favourite player didn't actually play them in the draw.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Oh I already feel that Djokovic had the toughest field overall. He played higher ranked opponents on average and has more top 5 and top 20 wins overall, and has never won a Slam without facing at least one top 5 player or at least one member of the Big 4. This is just another metric I think that supports this view.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I guess it all depends what the criteria is - overall or just prime period. If we're talking solely about who had it tougher during their best years I'd say it goes something like Nadal > Djokovic > Federer but overall it has to be Federer[given he's been around since dinosaurs roamed the Earth] followed by Nadal and Djokovic in whichever order.
That's my point. Why do these other people work out figures which skirt around the issue rather than actually generate lists of actual players played against then we will see the real picture.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Because that takes too much time. This is much easier way to get an idea of the field strength.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
This is an interesting article for you to look at. I think they blocked the site so you have to replace the "0" with an "o".
https://www.tennisw0rldusa.org/tenn...ic-has-the-toughest-draw-when-he-wins-majors/
Then it becomes a comparison of which tournament had more 'name' players rather then who actually played who so back to my 'name dropping' objection.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
So is it your belief that the ranking of the player holds no value? You don't feel that playing higher ranked players mean you are playing tougher players in your field? There are exceptions to this since you could play a lower ranked player who plays lights out tennis and red lines but that does not happen very often. More times than not, the higher ranked players will give the toughest opposition.
Not my point. Reread what I wrote
Then it becomes a comparison of which tournament had more 'name' players rather then who actually played who so back to my 'name dropping' objection.
How tough a player's draw is, is determined by who they played not by how many high seeded players they could have played but didn't.
guanzishou
G.O.A.T.
As the most fanatic Nadal fan, I have to agree.
Last edited:
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Ok fair enough but the conclusion is already that Djokovic played higher ranked players overall though.
Thats humble, given youre a Nole-fan
.I would say its a bit complicated. Most people consider 2009,2011,2012 the toughest years, and those years are part of Rafas prime. But he also had his easier years 2008,2010 and 2013. And than you have surface... He has won 11 out of 17 slams on clay, so clay has been his main arena. Given that his two biggest rivals on clay has clay as their worst surface, makes the competition debatable.
Djokovic 2011 is probably the most Impressive imo, he dominated a very tough year. I would say Novak had a fairly easy period late 2014-2016 but thats not even 2 years. Novaks main arena is HC which is by far the toughest.
As you say, Fedr has been around sinse the stone age so he has had all the competition there was
.As i said, its complicated, but if anything id lean towards Novak.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
In prime years, it's Djokovic; career-wise, it's Federer. Nadal cannot be found.
Pheasant
Legend
I agree with Nolefam, who is one of the most reasonable posters out there. Looking at the number of highly ranked opponents is probably the best way to quantify a player’s difficulty. Granted, it isn’t perfect. But it is the most objective way that I have seen so far. It is certainly a reasonable way to define the difficulty of one’s competition.
Nadal did not have the toughest competition of anyone in history. Even if we look at his own era, Djokovic has him buried by just about any metric that one looks at. Djokovic has played far more opponents ranked in the top 5 in slam matches and overall matches, despite being a year younger. If we back out each one’s best event, then it becomes a lopsided blowout in favor of Djokovic.
Slam play:
Opponents ranked in the top 5:
Djokovic 44, Nadal 35. This is a massive gap, especially considering that Novak is a year younger than Nadal.
Distribution of top 5 opponents by event: AO/FO/WI/USO
Nadal: 6/16/8/5
Djoker: 14/11/7/12
Federer: 14/11/13/13
Opponents ranked in the top 10:
Djokovic 71, Nadal 58. Once again, this is a massive difference.
Distribution of top 10 opponents by event:
Nadal: 15/24/10/9
Djokovic: 22/18/13/17
Federer: 30/19/23/22
Note: Federer through his age 31 season faced 39 opponents in the top 5, which beats Nadal’s by 4, despite the fact that Nadal is 32. However, Fed through his age 31 season trails Djokovic by 5. Federer face 69 opponents ranked in the top 10 through his age 31 season. That trails Djokovic by 2.
I vote in favor of Djokovic of the Big 3 for having the toughest competition. Djokovic faced more highly ranked opponents in a shorter period of time than the other two. I think the WTF is a great example of how Djoker can handle so many highly ranked opponents in a row. That event doesn’t allow any cakewalk draws. Djokovic has walked away with 5 titles from this event, which shows that he can dominate a tournament full of heavyweights.
Nadal did not have the toughest competition of anyone in history. Even if we look at his own era, Djokovic has him buried by just about any metric that one looks at. Djokovic has played far more opponents ranked in the top 5 in slam matches and overall matches, despite being a year younger. If we back out each one’s best event, then it becomes a lopsided blowout in favor of Djokovic.
Slam play:
Opponents ranked in the top 5:
Djokovic 44, Nadal 35. This is a massive gap, especially considering that Novak is a year younger than Nadal.
Distribution of top 5 opponents by event: AO/FO/WI/USO
Nadal: 6/16/8/5
Djoker: 14/11/7/12
Federer: 14/11/13/13
Opponents ranked in the top 10:
Djokovic 71, Nadal 58. Once again, this is a massive difference.
Distribution of top 10 opponents by event:
Nadal: 15/24/10/9
Djokovic: 22/18/13/17
Federer: 30/19/23/22
Note: Federer through his age 31 season faced 39 opponents in the top 5, which beats Nadal’s by 4, despite the fact that Nadal is 32. However, Fed through his age 31 season trails Djokovic by 5. Federer face 69 opponents ranked in the top 10 through his age 31 season. That trails Djokovic by 2.
I vote in favor of Djokovic of the Big 3 for having the toughest competition. Djokovic faced more highly ranked opponents in a shorter period of time than the other two. I think the WTF is a great example of how Djoker can handle so many highly ranked opponents in a row. That event doesn’t allow any cakewalk draws. Djokovic has walked away with 5 titles from this event, which shows that he can dominate a tournament full of heavyweights.
Last edited:
RS
Bionic Poster
. I would count 2007 as the golden era. 2003 had Agassi still formidable and with no clear person dominating like 2012 expect 2012 was better.
Last edited:
RS
Bionic Poster
Nadal was in his prime in 2007.
Last edited:
I think you have to look at many factors, but i agree on Djokovic. Surface is relevant, for example, Schwartzman was #11 pre W18, but he isnt even a top50 player on grass. Thiem is definetly not a top10 player on grass. Generally HC has had the toughest competition, and HC has been Djokovic main arena. Djokovic had it farily easy late 2014 to 2016, except that he has faced tough competiton his whole career. Well... except now
D
Deleted member 743561
Guest
But he can't debate his way out of a paper bag.
Similar threads
