What made Borg more popular than Lendl (and Sampras)?

KG1965

Legend
I agree with all the posts described here.
Borg was a star, the biggest alltime tennis star. Most popular of all Big3 too.
The reasons are many, all described by the posters.
Ivan simply had no star characteristics.:(
There is no match between the two champions if it is limited to this aspect: Borg win 6-0 6-1 6-1.

And popularity affects greatness. And it affects a lot.

The discussion on the comparison between the two champions in terms of talent/skils.. (best player) and achievements is different.
The two from this point of view however are very close.
In the first case it depends on the surface (Bjorn > Ivan on grass and clay, Ivan > Bjorn on hc and carpet/indoor) in the second case it is easy for Ivan to overtake Bjorn.
But it is not the subject of this thread.
 

skaj

Legend
skaj, just because you did not find her attractive doesn't mean nobody else did. Where t.f do you get off telling me to go back and see their pictures? And then you say I have a problem with you? Really? Do you even read what you write?

I read what I write, you apparently don't. I didn't talk about how I myself feel about Graf's looks. I just pointed out that Borg is conventionally good looking and attractive while Graf is absolutely not, so that could definitely not be the reason for the both of them. I don't know why you are seeing something personal in this...
 

NonP

Legend
Well, Lendl was from East Europe in a time when it was not so cool to be from there. It took them quite some time to warm up to Navratilova too. They are cool with the Czechs now but Serbia is a work in progress. Ivanovic was hot but Djokovic is unfortunately 'only' more relatable than Fed or Nadal which somehow doesn't seem to count for anything. People are going to deny this but there wasn't so much fuss about Djokovic's supposedly bad behaviour when he wasn't winning so much and was just the 'Djoker'. When he became more like the Joker from TDK, Fed and Nadal fanbases declared war on him.

I think the East-West (Europe) divide is a bit overblown. I know Lendl is usually pigeonholed as this Ivan Drago we in the West used to root against, but then Mecir seems to have been a crowd favorite from the get-go despite achieving far less and you can't tell me the guy didn't have a wicked sense of humor himself.

My girl Navratilova is a more complicated case due not only to her eventual US citizenship but also to her vocal LGBTQ activism and anti-communism which challenge easy ideological narratives.

And my boy Djokovic has always been something of a dweeb compared to Fed and Rafa, which is what turned me into a lifelong fan in the first place but alienated him from many in this extrovert-friendly world. I seriously doubt he would've been as popular as either Fedal had he been born and bred in a New York, Paris or London.

What a lot of you are missing is that Borg was perfect for PR hype, so the press made him into whatever they wanted. He had a shy smile, a gentle way of talking, and was no nonsense on the court. He played faster than the others, normally did not complain, and he had the kind of looks that people could market. Other than that he was well managed and kept his mouth shut.

He was my favorite player at the time, but I'm only 6 years older, so he was someone we young guys could relate to, I guess. I absolutely loathed Mac and did not like Connors much better. To me they were both national embarrassments. I don't get the idea Bjorn is particularly bright (I may be wrong), but when you smile and keep your mouth shut, people are free to imagine all sorts of positive qualities that may or may not be there.

To understand his rock star status you just had to be there. I know people who don't know who Roger Federer is, as unbelievable as that sounds, but I don't remember anyone not knowing who Borg was. Tennis had a popularity in the 70s that is hard to understand today if you did not see its rise. My mom and my dad tried to play and always watched, and my brother. So all the people in my family played and watched. No one in my family today gives a damn about tennis, and not one of them could name all of the big three.

Your experience isn't untypical even outside the US. I just quizzed my mum on tennis players past and present and Connors and Navratilova were the only names she could recall for sure, Borg and Mac to a lesser extent. (Couldn't get her to name this one "Wimbledon hotshot" of yore, alas.) She's got no clue about the current Big 3 nor does she care. Too many people in this and other sports forums make the mistake of assuming others are even half as obsessed with pro athletes as they are. I can tell you for a fact that my mom is familiar only with the big names (Pele, Maradona, Jordan, etc.) and a few lesser ones she casually follows purely out of national pride.

skaj, just because you did not find her attractive doesn't mean nobody else did. Where t.f do you get off telling me to go back and see their pictures? And then you say I have a problem with you? Really? Do you even read what you write?

Pretty sure that, relatively speaking, Borg would be considered more attractive than Graf by their respective opposite sex. But yeah, it seems to have never occurred to your nemesis that when a group of people accuse him of having an odd Jedi complex maybe the problem is not their lack of reading comprehension.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I read what I write, you apparently don't. I didn't talk about how I myself feel about Graf's looks. I just pointed out that Borg is conventionally good looking and attractive while Graf is absolutely not, so that could definitely not be the reason for the both of them.

To you. As a straight male, I am not fascinated by his looks. It's alright but there have been more handsome players than him. And more to the point, it was in the 80s that two 'unconventionally' attractive, tall and long legged female stars broke through in tennis - Graf and Gabby- so don't be going around throwing the definite article where it is not applicable. For me, Sharapova and Ivanovic were my favourites in that department but I have met many, particularly those older than me, who swore by Steffi's looks. Newsflash: Stardom based on looks doesn't depend on skaj's liking or not.

I don't know why you are seeing something personal in this...
Eh, because you ask me to see their photos as if I haven't. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I need to go look at their photos again. Did you realise for a sec you were talking about two of the biggest tennis stars from a period before internet and social media? Those two are both household names and you think I need to go look at them so I can align with your infallible, uber-objective perspective? Sorry, you are not the cat's whiskers that you fancy yourself to be.
 
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Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I think the East-West (Europe) divide is a bit overblown. I know Lendl is usually pigeonholed as this Ivan Drago we in the West used to root against, but then Mecir seems to have been a crowd favorite from the get-go despite achieving far less and you can't tell me the guy didn't have a wicked sense of humor himself.

My girl Navratilova is a more complicated case due not only to her eventual US citizenship but also to her vocal LGBTQ activism and anti-communism which challenge easy ideological narratives.

And my boy Djokovic has always been something of a dweeb compared to Fed and Rafa, which is what turned me into a lifelong fan in the first place but alienated him from many in this extrovert-friendly world. I seriously doubt he would've been as popular as either Fedal had he been born and bred in a New York, Paris or London.

I don't know, though, what Mecir's popularity would have been had he in fact been an achiever. As a goofy court jester, he was alright. I will give that his game was any day more appealing to watch than Lendl's but Borg's game wasn't particularly appealing either.

About Djokovic, well, Connors used to actually get the crowd behind him for his antics so idk maybe people would have been tolerant about Djokovic's relatively more mild antics had he not been from Serbia. I would not bring up this angle had I not seen anti-Serb invective thrown in the direction of Djokovic or his supporters on more than one occasion on this forum. It may NOT be a thing for everyone or may not be to the same degree but now that I have seen it, I know it exists.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
I think the East-West (Europe) divide is a bit overblown. I know Lendl is usually pigeonholed as this Ivan Drago we in the West used to root against, but then Mecir seems to have been a crowd favorite from the get-go despite achieving far less and you can't tell me the guy didn't have a wicked sense of humor himself.

My girl Navratilova is a more complicated case due not only to her eventual US citizenship but also to her vocal LGBTQ activism and anti-communism which challenge easy ideological narratives.

And my boy Djokovic has always been something of a dweeb compared to Fed and Rafa, which is what turned me into a lifelong fan in the first place but alienated him from many in this extrovert-friendly world. I seriously doubt he would've been as popular as either Fedal had he been born and bred in a New York, Paris or London.



Your experience isn't untypical even outside the US. I just quizzed my mum on tennis players past and present and Connors and Navratilova were the only names she could recall for sure, Borg and Mac to a lesser extent. (Couldn't get her to name this one "Wimbledon hotshot" of yore, alas.) She's got no clue about the current Big 3 nor does she care. Too many people in this and other sports forums make the mistake of assuming others are even half as obsessed with pro athletes as they are. I can tell you for a fact that my mom is familiar only with the big names (Pele, Maradona, Jordan, etc.) and a few lesser ones she casually follows purely out of national pride.



Pretty sure that, relatively speaking, Borg would be considered more attractive than Graf by their respective opposite sex. But yeah, it seems to have never occurred to your nemesis that when a group of people accuse him of having an odd Jedi complex maybe the problem is not their lack of reading comprehension.
Djokovic's personality was a bigger factor for his popularity in his early days than either of the other 2; although he was a little arrogant and behaved badly at times, he had a love-hate relationship going on with the fans - one day they're asking him to do his Nadal impression and play JMac at USO, the next day they're booing him for the fight with Roddick (yes, I know, different years). The "Djoker" part of him did allow the Western crowd to warm to him and for some time he was just as well-recognized and popular as the other 2. (HEAD aggressively marketing Djokovic and Sharapova together helped, too).

I wouldn't really say him being Serbian is the reason for his lesser popularity to Federer - that's a more recent phenomenon post-2014 during his 2nd wave of dominance. You could really just chalk it up to him being a less exciting player post-2014 than his 2011 aggressive fist-pumping incarnation. He dominated like Fed without the box-office tennis. It still never really affected his image outside the English-speaking world, but at places like Wimbledon and USO the difference was pretty stark. And Novak learned to deal with it, like at W19 - kept his head down and fought back for that insane win over Fed in a Davis Cup-like atmosphere.
 

skaj

Legend
To you. As a straight male, I am not fascinated by his looks. It's alright but there have been more handsome players than him. And more to the point, it was in the 80s that two 'unconventionally' attractive, tall and long legged female stars broke through in tennis - Graf and Gabby- so don't be going around throwing the definite article where it is not applicable. For me, Sharapova and Ivanovic were my favourites in that department but I have met many, particularly those older than me, who swore by Steffi's looks. Newsflash: Stardom based on looks doesn't depend on skaj's liking or not.


Eh, because you ask me to see their photos as if I haven't. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I need to go look at their photos again. Did you realise for a sec you were talking about two of the biggest tennis stars from a period before internet and social media? Those two are both household names and you think I need to go look at them so I can align with your infallible, uber-objective perspective? Sorry, you are not the cat's whiskers that you fancy yourself to be.


To me Borg's looks resemble ideals of beauty and attractiveness much, much more than Graf's do. To me Sabatini's looks resemble ideals of beauty and attractiveness much, much more than Graf's do. Meaning, many more people, now or in the 80s, would agree that Borg and Sabatini are much better looking and more attractive than Graf. For this discussion it is not important what you and I or our acquaintances find to be attractive and beautiful, but what masses find to be attractive and beautiful. You don't agree with this? You think that for a woman Graf is as conventionally attractive as Borg is for a man? Or that she is as conventionally beautiful as Sabatini? Fine with me, enjoy your opinion.

I wasn't literally telling you to go and look, I was just using a more fun way of pointing out how odd your post was. I am sorry if that offended you, I will try to remember your nick and write in a more robotic manner when replying to your posts, if you are so sensitive.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
This is a PSA: guys, it's ok to think Borg was hot even if you're straight. You're welcome.
Quoted for truth.

image.jpg
 

DMP

Professional
What a lot of you are missing is that Borg was perfect for PR hype, so the press made him into whatever they wanted. He had a shy smile, a gentle way of talking, and was no nonsense on the court. He played faster than the others, normally did not complain, and he had the kind of looks that people could market. Other than that he was well managed and kept his mouth shut.

He was my favorite player at the time, but I'm only 6 years older, so he was someone we young guys could relate to, I guess. I absolutely loathed Mac and did not like Connors much better. To me they were both national embarrassments. I don't get the idea Bjorn is particularly bright (I may be wrong), but when you smile and keep your mouth shut, people are free to imagine all sorts of positive qualities that may or may not be there.

To understand his rock star status you just had to be there. I know people who don't know who Roger Federer is, as unbelievable as that sounds, but I don't remember anyone not knowing who Borg was. Tennis had a popularity in the 70s that is hard to understand today if you did not see its rise. My mom and my dad tried to play and always watched, and my brother. So all the people in my family played and watched. No one in my family today gives a damn about tennis, and not one of them could name all of the big three.

Yes, nailed it. The player I would say came closest to emulating Borg was Becker. Burst on the scene as a junior, with a big personality to match. Just didn't have the dedication that Borg did, and didn't have the rivals with contrasting styles that Borg did with Connors and McEnroe. Edberg was just too nice and quiet, and wasn't 'cool' enough to generate wide public interest.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Yes, nailed it. The player I would say came closest to emulating Borg was Becker. Burst on the scene as a junior, with a big personality to match. Just didn't have the dedication that Borg did, and didn't have the rivals with contrasting styles that Borg did with Connors and McEnroe. Edberg was just too nice and quiet, and wasn't 'cool' enough to generate wide public interest.
Becker also had a far more interesting playing style. Big serve, net rusher, diving for volleys, he was entertaining on the court. Borg didn't really have that, he was the steady topspin baseline grinder (with an ugly @$$ backhand, sorry Borg fans)
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Becker also had a far more interesting playing style. Big serve, net rusher, diving for volleys, he was entertaining on the court. Borg didn't really have that, he was the steady topspin baseline grinder (with an ugly @$$ backhand, sorry Borg fans)
Like I said - and skaj wildly misinterpreted and sent the thread on a tangent - Borg's appeal stemmed more from how he looked. If you want to talk about a rockstar ATTITUDE, that was Connors or Mac. Borg did not voice his opinions, he did not voice ANYTHING, he just had long locks that people were fascinated by. Becker was interesting both in terms of playing style and his personality.

Look at this reaction from Becker at 47:16. All he had done was break Agassi for the first time in a second set he had been getting pounded in up to that point. And he reacted like he had just won the match or at least the set.


Becker was never overtly mean to the other players, though Agassi accused him of indulging in passive-aggressive insults against him. Instead, he just exuded a regal, even arrogant confidence in himself. No comparison to Borg, totally different kind of personality.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Well, Lendl was from East Europe in a time when it was not so cool to be from there. It took them quite some time to warm up to Navratilova too. They are cool with the Czechs now but Serbia is a work in progress. Ivanovic was hot but Djokovic is unfortunately 'only' more relatable than Fed or Nadal which somehow doesn't seem to count for anything. People are going to deny this but there wasn't so much fuss about Djokovic's supposedly bad behaviour when he wasn't winning so much and was just the 'Djoker'. When he became more like the Joker from TDK, Fed and Nadal fanbases declared war on him.

Good point re: cultural differences. Supposedly, Lendl had a wicked sarcastic side (which sometimes came out in his interviews), but his sense of 'funny' was a bit off from what Americans were accustomed to. MN was rather chilly too and considered a bad sport by some (compared to the Ice Princess, Evert). I liked Nole a lot better earlier on in his career when he had a real sense of humor...not sure what happened there...he seemed to become more serious (and grim) as his career progressed. He too, like Lendl, appeared to have some fitness issues, which Nole claims to have solved with a gluten free diet. While I would prefer to "like" the #1 player, that doesn't always happen for many of us, based on our predilections. I found Sampras terribly boring, but would put up w/the nonsense of a Connors or McEnroe because of the added excitement they brought to their matches. Fed is an artist who works magic, while Nole and Nadal are somewhat arguably 'grinders' who never quit. Take your pick.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Good point re: cultural differences. Supposedly, Lendl had a wicked sarcastic side (which sometimes came out in his interviews), but his sense of 'funny' was a bit off from what Americans were accustomed to. MN was rather chilly too and considered a bad sport by some (compared to the Ice Princess, Evert). I liked Nole a lot better earlier on in his career when he had a real sense of humor...not sure what happened there...he seemed to become more serious (and grim) as his career progressed. He too, like Lendl, appeared to have some fitness issues, which Nole claims to have solved with a gluten free diet. While I would prefer to "like" the #1 player, that doesn't always happen for many of us, based on our predilections. I found Sampras terribly boring, but would put up w/the nonsense of a Connors or McEnroe because of the added excitement they brought to their matches. Fed is an artist who works magic, while Nole and Nadal are somewhat arguably 'grinders' who never quit. Take your pick.
Murray referred to Lendl's sense of humour when he had signed him on and Courier said Lendl is not ha ha funny. Right, but I guess as a Brit Murray related better to Lendl's dry wit.
 

muddlehead

Professional
This one's real real easy. You tube the famous tiebreaker w/ Mac at Wimby 1980. It's in HD. Lasts 10 mins or so. You'll see why, in 10 minutes, he is/was the most popular tennis player of all time for many of us.
(PS I'm a huge Lendl fan. Borg is the Beatles. Ivan ...?)
 

Pheasant

Legend
What a lot of you are missing is that Borg was perfect for PR hype, so the press made him into whatever they wanted. He had a shy smile, a gentle way of talking, and was no nonsense on the court. He played faster than the others, normally did not complain, and he had the kind of looks that people could market. Other than that he was well managed and kept his mouth shut.

He was my favorite player at the time, but I'm only 6 years older, so he was someone we young guys could relate to, I guess. I absolutely loathed Mac and did not like Connors much better. To me they were both national embarrassments. I don't get the idea Bjorn is particularly bright (I may be wrong), but when you smile and keep your mouth shut, people are free to imagine all sorts of positive qualities that may or may not be there.

To understand his rock star status you just had to be there. I know people who don't know who Roger Federer is, as unbelievable as that sounds, but I don't remember anyone not knowing who Borg was. Tennis had a popularity in the 70s that is hard to understand today if you did not see its rise. My mom and my dad tried to play and always watched, and my brother. So all the people in my family played and watched. No one in my family today gives a damn about tennis, and not one of them could name all of the big three.

Exactly. Tennis courts were full when I was growing up in the 1970s. There were signs that read, "if people are waiting, then you can only play for 60 minutes". They had a practice backboards on the sides of these courts to warm up until it was your turn to play. And those warmup backboards were always full. Everybody played back then. Every neighborhood had several tennis courts. All of our schools had them, including junior high school. And they were almost always crowded.

My sister was an all-coference player that won several awards. She and her tennis teamates all worshipped Borg. He was this modest shy guy with a very pretty game, as she described it. And she didn't mind looking at him. Borg seemed like a rock star at that time; he really did.

Nowadays, I can invite a buddy over, drive a couple of miles to find the nearest tennis court, and actually play. I never had to wait. And oftentimes, there's nobody in the court next to me. We are the only ones there most of the time. Growing up, that never happened once. I had a court 1 block from my home. We'd bike there, then usually wait 15-30 minutes before a court opened up to play.

Borg, despite not being American, was like a rock star here.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Exactly. Tennis courts were full when I was growing up in the 1970s. There were signs that read, "if people are waiting, then you can only play for 60 minutes". They had a practice backboards on the sides of these courts to warm up until it was your turn to play. And those warmup backboards were always full. Everybody played back then. Every neighborhood had several tennis courts. All of our schools had them, including junior high school. And they were almost always crowded.

My sister was an all-coference player that won several awards. She and her tennis teamates all worshipped Borg. He was this modest shy guy with a very pretty game, as she described it. And she didn't mind looking at him. Borg seemed like a rock star at that time; he really did.

Nowadays, I can invite a buddy over, drive a couple of miles to find the nearest tennis court, and actually play. I never had to wait. And oftentimes, there's nobody in the court next to me. We are the only ones there most of the time. Growing up, that never happened once. I had a court 1 block from my home. We'd bike there, then usually wait 15-30 minutes before a court opened up to play.

Borg, despite not being American, was like a rock star here.
That's exactly what I remember. Tennis at that time was something everyone wanted to try. And it was so easy to play, because you just picked up a stock racket and a can of balls. Most of us used nylon, because gut was too expensive and required more upkeep. It was a simple sport, and those old rackets were like clubs with tiny racket heads. We never thought about any of this. It's just how things were. Every time I see modern players hit tweeners I think how impossible that would be with those old wooden rackets. Also, when I see players with two handers splay the back foot out to the side in such an incredibly awkward looking way, I think how that just could not work back then. You can't get enough power. That's why you never saw Evert or Borg do that. It didn't work. Modern players don't have deformed forearms like Laver, from hitting excess stopspin, because today everyone can do it. I remember hitting big topspin in table tennis, the way all the players now do in tennis. I don't remember anyone using a lot of wrist in tennis as they do now. I believe what people like Sock and Krygios now do what was then just plain impossible, so much wrist.

But I need to add that Borg had a "buggy arm" topspin forehand that looked remarkable like Nadal's finish, so this is one of many things these two clay magicians had/have in common.
 
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Olli Jokinen

Hall of Fame
I think the East-West (Europe) divide is a bit overblown. I know Lendl is usually pigeonholed as this Ivan Drago we in the West used to root against, but then Mecir seems to have been a crowd favorite from the get-go despite achieving far less and you can't tell me the guy didn't have a wicked sense of humor himself.

My girl Navratilova is a more complicated case due not only to her eventual US citizenship but also to her vocal LGBTQ activism and anti-communism which challenge easy ideological narratives.

And my boy Djokovic has always been something of a dweeb compared to Fed and Rafa, which is what turned me into a lifelong fan in the first place but alienated him from many in this extrovert-friendly world. I seriously doubt he would've been as popular as either Fedal had he been born and bred in a New York, Paris or London.



Your experience isn't untypical even outside the US. I just quizzed my mum on tennis players past and present and Connors and Navratilova were the only names she could recall for sure, Borg and Mac to a lesser extent. (Couldn't get her to name this one "Wimbledon hotshot" of yore, alas.) She's got no clue about the current Big 3 nor does she care. Too many people in this and other sports forums make the mistake of assuming others are even half as obsessed with pro athletes as they are. I can tell you for a fact that my mom is familiar only with the big names (Pele, Maradona, Jordan, etc.) and a few lesser ones she casually follows purely out of national pride.



Pretty sure that, relatively speaking, Borg would be considered more attractive than Graf by their respective opposite sex. But yeah, it seems to have never occurred to your nemesis that when a group of people accuse him of having an odd Jedi complex maybe the problem is not their lack of reading comprehension.
Empirically speaking I think that your mom should maybe not be the basis of all research regarding the fame of past greats of tennis.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Exactly. Tennis courts were full when I was growing up in the 1970s. There were signs that read, "if people are waiting, then you can only play for 60 minutes". They had a practice backboards on the sides of these courts to warm up until it was your turn to play. And those warmup backboards were always full. Everybody played back then. Every neighborhood had several tennis courts. All of our schools had them, including junior high school. And they were almost always crowded.

Nowadays, I can invite a buddy over, drive a couple of miles to find the nearest tennis court, and actually play. I never had to wait. And oftentimes, there's nobody in the court next to me. We are the only ones there most of the time. Growing up, that never happened once. I had a court 1 block from my home. We'd bike there, then usually wait 15-30 minutes before a court opened up to play.

Borg, despite not being American, was like a rock star here.

So true....I think the boom lasted until the mid-80's or so here in the US...then tennis took off in Germany due to Becker and Graf. When Sampras, Courier and Chang broke through, you might have thought there would be a resurgence in the US, but it just didn't happen. Lots of tennis courts in my neck of the woods got turned into skateboard parks!
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
but alienated him from many in this extrovert-friendly world
Are you suggesting that Novak is an introvert? I never got that feeling. In fact his goofiness, his imitation pranks etc suggest that he is not an introvert. I definitely think that him being from the Eastern Europe belt has certainly to do with his popularity and of course the obvious gnawing away of records from his more famous colleagues.
Graf and Gabby
Graf was considered good looking for sure. I figure that anyone who is even decent looking and keeps their mouth shut becomes popular.
 

HitMoreBHs

Professional
Borg was much better looking (at least the hordes of girls who mobbed him daily at Wimbledon thought so)...

That mania was in no small part propagated by the trashy British tabloid press doing their usual invasive and incessant long lens photos, daily media gossip, half truths etc for the sake of paper sales in an era when the social media devoid Gen-X had only such sources to feed their obsessions. That he was so successful at Wimbledon only made him tabloid press fodder for longer since he was around for the entire fortnight 5 years running.

Borg was the lifeblood of many a free lance press photographer back in the day.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
No, I reacted to what you wrote. See the part in bold. So, Borg attracted a large female fan following not for the similar reasons, his reasons were his good looks. Graf's were definitely not her good looks. He was conventionally physically attractive, she certainly wasn't.

Again, you don't know that. Conventionally attractive is not the only yardstick, unconventionally attractive will also do. You mean to say there were no Gaby fans for her looks? I swear I know guys who don't even watch tennis much and adore her looks.
In the second part of your post you are again focusing on me, giving your highly unnecessary opinions about my(reminder: a stranger in an internet forum) personality, in order to explain something from the discussion(s!?!) that isn't even the case. I don't know why are you so obsessed with me, maybe you should see someone about that.

I am not obsessed with you, I did not quote you in my first response to this thread. It was you who inserted yourself in a non existent debate and decided to pick up a fight. And then you complain I am making it about you. No, if you are so stubborn that you keep arguing about something like looks, that just because you don't find somebody attractive means it is necessarily the case that she wasn't, I can't help you.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
That mania was in no small part propagated by the trashy British tabloid press doing their usual invasive and incessant long lens photos, daily media gossip, half truths etc for the sake of paper sales in an era when the social media devoid Gen-X had only such sources to feed their obsessions. That he was so successful at Wimbledon only made him tabloid press fodder for longer since he was around for the entire fortnight 5 years running.

Borg was the lifeblood of many a free lance press photographer back in the day.

Even the popular trashmags can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Borg just naturally exuded rock star like good looks and charisma (at least by comparison to what had gone before). The trashmags just picked up on it. The teeny boppers needed no encouragement. :cool:
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
That mania was in no small part propagated by the trashy British tabloid press doing their usual invasive and incessant long lens photos, daily media gossip, half truths etc for the sake of paper sales in an era when the social media devoid Gen-X had only such sources to feed their obsessions. That he was so successful at Wimbledon only made him tabloid press fodder for longer since he was around for the entire fortnight 5 years running.

Borg was the lifeblood of many a free lance press photographer back in the day.
The media gossip never changes, does it? Nowadays you have all the tenn1sworldusa types writing whatever they can about Federer, Djokovic, and Nadal even if it's complete Bullsheet, and we fans lap it up.
 

HitMoreBHs

Professional
Even the popular trashmags can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Yeaa, I used to think the trashy tabloid press editors had superhuman abilities to sway public opinion. And then the HRH Andrew BBC interview bus crash happened, and I realised that even they can’t salvage the fatal combination of being thick and entitled.
 

NonP

Legend
Your experience isn't untypical even outside the US. I just quizzed my mum on tennis players past and present and Connors and Navratilova were the only names she could recall for sure, Borg and Mac to a lesser extent. (Couldn't get her to name this one "Wimbledon hotshot" of yore, alas.) She's got no clue about the current Big 3 nor does she care. Too many people in this and other sports forums make the mistake of assuming others are even half as obsessed with pro athletes as they are. I can tell you for a fact that my mom is familiar only with the big names (Pele, Maradona, Jordan, etc.) and a few lesser ones she casually follows purely out of national pride.

Heard from Mom this morning that the "Wimbledon hotshot" she had in mind was indeed Navratilova, along with Evert. So Martina and Chrissie are bigger stars in her tennis universe than any of the Big 3 (men). Looks like Uniqlo ain't getting the most out of their annual $30M check to Fed!

Back to the replies:

I don't know, though, what Mecir's popularity would have been had he in fact been an achiever. As a goofy court jester, he was alright. I will give that his game was any day more appealing to watch than Lendl's but Borg's game wasn't particularly appealing either.

About Djokovic, well, Connors used to actually get the crowd behind him for his antics so idk maybe people would have been tolerant about Djokovic's relatively more mild antics had he not been from Serbia. I would not bring up this angle had I not seen anti-Serb invective thrown in the direction of Djokovic or his supporters on more than one occasion on this forum. It may NOT be a thing for everyone or may not be to the same degree but now that I have seen it, I know it exists.

My guess is that Mecir would've been that much more popular with greater success. I'm personally not as enamored with his game as his die-hard fans here (I'm partial to the big game and prefer to see crushing serves and FHs to mere finesse), but I don't remember even a single casual fan speaking of Mecir in such Drago-ish terms as were reserved for Lendl and don't think that divergence of reactions would've changed a whole lot regardless of the Big Cat's resume.

And I actually don't think it's Novak's antics that rub people the wrong way, but rather the desperation of his carefully choreographed attempts to be liked. Which brings me to....

Djokovic's personality was a bigger factor for his popularity in his early days than either of the other 2; although he was a little arrogant and behaved badly at times, he had a love-hate relationship going on with the fans - one day they're asking him to do his Nadal impression and play JMac at USO, the next day they're booing him for the fight with Roddick (yes, I know, different years). The "Djoker" part of him did allow the Western crowd to warm to him and for some time he was just as well-recognized and popular as the other 2. (HEAD aggressively marketing Djokovic and Sharapova together helped, too).

I wouldn't really say him being Serbian is the reason for his lesser popularity to Federer - that's a more recent phenomenon post-2014 during his 2nd wave of dominance. You could really just chalk it up to him being a less exciting player post-2014 than his 2011 aggressive fist-pumping incarnation. He dominated like Fed without the box-office tennis. It still never really affected his image outside the English-speaking world, but at places like Wimbledon and USO the difference was pretty stark. And Novak learned to deal with it, like at W19 - kept his head down and fought back for that insane win over Fed in a Davis Cup-like atmosphere.

I've already talked about his flap with Roddick and can't say he didn't deserve it in the slightest. (When you accuse the crowd of being against him from the start you can't expect them to behave any other way.) Anyway those impressions Novak used to do were never that good. Of course the public still ate them up when he was a talented upstart who might finally break the Fedal stranglehold on men's tennis, but as he started winning the manicured predictability of his antics became more and more obvious. It's probably no coincidence that he mostly stopped doing his impressions when he began to be known less as a legit contender than as something of a class clown.

And Novak was never going to win the highlight reel battle with Fed or even Rafa. Could that be why he's behind both in worldwide popularity? Perhaps, but while I can see why Fed would always get the better of Novak I don't see how any objective observer could conclude that my boy is almost 50% less exiciting (per the # of Twitter followers) than Rafa. Which in turn leads us to....

Are you suggesting that Novak is an introvert? I never got that feeling. In fact his goofiness, his imitation pranks etc suggest that he is not an introvert. I definitely think that him being from the Eastern Europe belt has certainly to do with his popularity and of course the obvious gnawing away of records from his more famous colleagues.

Not suggesting, I'm pretty sure he is. Just as many actors excel in their art precisely because they're introverts Novak's putting on these shows may well indicate a certain degree of overcompensation on his part. In fact their widely perceived awkwardness is a dead giveaway that the guy is an introvert trying to play an extrovert. I'd say that more than anything else is why he has yet to command (and probably never will) the same level of popular adulation as either Fedal. By way of their prevalence alone extroverts dictate the ways of the world while introverts struggle to be heard (including by fellow introverts), and Novak is at least vaguely cognizant of that reality and tries to accommodate, with limited success.

Graf was considered good looking for sure. I figure that anyone who is even decent looking and keeps their mouth shut becomes popular.

Of course Graf was/is considered attractive. I honestly couldn't count the number of times I've seen straight dudes drool over her (or straight women scrutinizing her famous gams with envy), or call Agassi lucky for marrying her.

Now did the thirst level for Graf ever reach Borg's in his heyday? Probably not, but Dolgo was simply drawing an analogy, not equating the two.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Heard from Mom this morning that the "Wimbledon hotshot" she had in mind was indeed Navratilova, along with Evert. So Martina and Chrissie are bigger stars in her tennis universe than any of the Big 3 (men). Looks like Uniqlo ain't getting the most out of their annual $30M check to Fed!

Back to the replies:



My guess is that Mecir would've been that much more popular with greater success. I'm personally not as enamored with his game as his die-hard fans here (I'm partial to the big game and prefer to see crushing serves and FHs to mere finesse), but I don't remember even a single casual fan speaking of Mecir in such Drago-ish terms as were reserved for Lendl and don't think that divergence of reactions would've changed a whole lot regardless of the Big Cat's resume.

And I actually don't think it's Novak's antics that rub people the wrong way, but rather the desperation of his carefully choreographed attempts to be liked. Which brings me to....



I've already talked about his flap with Roddick and can't say he didn't deserve it in the slightest. (When you accuse the crowd of being against him from the start you can't expect them to behave any other way.) Anyway those impressions Novak used to do were never that good. Of course the public still ate them up when he was a talented upstart who might finally break the Fedal stranglehold on men's tennis, but as he started winning the manicured predictability of his antics became more and more obvious. It's probably no coincidence that he mostly stopped doing his impressions when he began to be known less as a legit contender than as something of a class clown.

And Novak was never going to win the highlight reel battle with Fed or even Rafa. Could that be why he's behind both in worldwide popularity? Perhaps, but while I can see why Fed would always get the better of Novak I don't see how any objective observer could conclude that my boy is almost 50% less exiciting (per the # of Twitter followers) than Rafa. Which in turn leads us to....



Not suggesting, I'm pretty sure he is. Just as many actors excel in their art precisely because they're introverts Novak's putting on these shows may well indicate a certain degree of overcompensation on his part. In fact their widely perceived awkwardness is a dead giveaway that the guy is an introvert trying to play an extrovert. I'd say that more than anything else is why he has yet to command (and probably never will) the same level of popular adulation as either Fedal. By way of their prevalence alone extroverts dictate the ways of the world while introverts struggle to be heard (including by fellow introverts), and Novak is at least vaguely cognizant of that reality and tries to accommodate, with limited success.



Of course Graf was/is considered attractive. I honestly couldn't count the number of times I've seen straight dudes drool over her (or straight women scrutinizing her famous gams with envy), or call Agassi lucky for marrying her.

Now did the thirst level for Graf ever reach Borg's in his heyday? Probably not, but Dolgo was simply drawing an analogy, not equating the two.
I think Nadal's popularity is highly overstated and Djokovic's is understated. Sure, he's more popular in the Americas and a few European countries, but outside of that he's nowhere as big as Federer or even Djokovic in many cases. Nadal also has more Twitter stans than Federer, but that obviously doesn't mean he's a bigger icon than the Maestro.
Of course, neither Nadal nor Djokovic can compare to Federer in terms of their global celebrity status, which is partly because (as Fed fans never get tired of mentioning) their playing styles aren't as fun to watch.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
Not suggesting, I'm pretty sure he is. Just as many actors excel in their art precisely because they're introverts Novak's putting on these shows may well indicate a certain degree of overcompensation on his part. In fact their widely perceived awkwardness is a dead giveaway that the guy is an introvert trying to play an extrovert. I'd say that more than anything else is why he has yet to command (and probably never will) the same level of popular adulation as either Fedal. By way of their prevalence alone extroverts dictate the ways of the world while introverts struggle to be heard (including by fellow introverts), and Novak is at least vaguely cognizant of that reality and tries to accommodate, with limited success.
Interesting take. I always thought Rafa was a bit shy, moreso than his illustrious colleagues. His English speaking skills were mocked quite a bit especially in the early days when he was challenging authority so to speak- he is almost like a different person now. I usually love introverts because I feel the struggle in them since I go through the same rut everyday in a world that loves to yap, which is excruciatingly painful. I never got the introvert vibes from Nole. Its a new perspective. Perhaps that is why I was drawn to him myself? I will have to recollect his actions and tie them up to characteristics of an introvert and see them in a new light, I suppose.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Interesting take. I always thought Rafa was a bit shy, moreso than his illustrious colleagues. His English speaking skills were mocked quite a bit especially in the early days when he was challenging authority so to speak- he is almost like a different person now. I usually love introverts because I feel the struggle in them since I go through the same rut everyday in a world that loves to yap, which is excruciatingly painful. I never got the introvert vibes from Nole. Its a new perspective. Perhaps that is why I was drawn to him myself? I will have to recollect his actions and tie them up to characteristics of an introvert and see them in a new light, I suppose.
I really can't see Djokovic being an introvert. If he is one by nature, he's done an exceptional job doing the opposite, because the tennis world initially fell in love with him for his funny, outgoing personality. Everything about him, from his big fist pumps and working the crowd during matches, to his off-court personality with his practical jokes and impersonations to his talent for speaking different languages, etc, points to a highly extroverted personality. Easy to admire and root for, but harder to relate to.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
I really can't see Djokovic being an introvert. If he is one by nature, he's done an exceptional job doing the opposite, because the tennis world initially fell in love with him for his funny, outgoing personality. Everything about him, from his big fist pumps and working the crowd during matches, to his off-court personality with his practical jokes and impersonations to his talent for speaking different languages, etc, points to a highly extroverted personality. Easy to admire and root for, but harder to relate to.
This was pretty much how I saw it too. The obvious introvert for me was Sampras. On the women's side, I would think Nav, Henin are obvious choices.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Dolgopolov's posts with all the personal attacks just reek of entitlement and condescension. Imagine thinking your own opinion is factually correct, and that anyone who disagrees ought to know their place and shut up. :rolleyes:
However, as a male tennis fan I can attest that Graf was fairly attractive in her prime, and I can imagine that played some, however small role in her popularity. Nothing like Borg, though. He looked like some kind of Viking hero, which must've added to his allure during his period of domination.
OTOH I have no problem with a different opinion. I do have a problem if you (as in skaj) misunderstand the post and then, to compound the issue, think yourself entitled to tell me go look at the photos of the two of the biggest stars in tennis. A joke, eh? Not buying, sorry. Methinks skaj would like to grant self endless alibis for their condescension. It's not even for the first time. And if somebody is condescending to me, you can bet your ass I will hound you in the argument over and over and make you regret you said it unless you have the grace to accept you were wrong to say that. I have no compunctions about that. I am polite but I ain't rolling over for anyone, don't see why I should.
 
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Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Of course Graf was/is considered attractive. I honestly couldn't count the number of times I've seen straight dudes drool over her (or straight women scrutinizing her famous gams with envy), or call Agassi lucky for marrying her.

Now did the thirst level for Graf ever reach Borg's in his heyday? Probably not, but Dolgo was simply drawing an analogy, not equating the two.
Amen, thank you. The Agassi part, especially. Very funny to see people turn around now and pretend it was never a thing. Yes, the ultra glam Kournikova epoch hadn't arrived but by that standpoint, Borg can hardly match Fognini either for sheer style. Case in point: Sissy shares some of the Greek God with vacant stare features of Borg, but doesn't get the drools to anywhere close to that extent. One has to look at why a player appealed to people in HER time, not transpose it to today's standards. Nobody, not that I can recall, cheered Sampras, Sampras in neutral venues but loud chants of Steffi! Steffi! were not unremarkable at that time. Steffi was not a better player than Sampras, well at least not by a wide distance barring the calendar slam, and she hardly spoke so what do people want to attribute those cheers then but to roided hormones?
 
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Azure

G.O.A.T.
Amen, thank you. The Agassi part, especially. Very funny to see people turn around now and pretend it was never a thing. Yes, the ultra glam Kournikova epoch hadn't arrived but by that standpoint, Borg can hardly match Fognini either for sheer style. Case in point: Sissy shares some of the Greek God with vacant stare features of Borg, but doesn't get the drools to anywhere close to that extent. One has to look at why a player appealed to people in HER time, not transpose it to today's standards. Nobody, not that I can recall, cheered Sampras, Sampras in neutral venues but loud chants of Steffi! Steffi! were not unremarkable at that time. Steffi was not a better player than Sampras, well at least not by a wide distance barring the calendar slam, and she hardly spoke so what do people want to attribute those cheers then but to roided hormones?
Ah tough to answer that. May be for the female stars that is how it goes and still doesn't completely explain I suppose. I have no explanation for why some men are more popular than others. Factors of country of origin, style, looks, timing, media influence - the list is long.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Ah tough to answer that. May be for the female stars that is how it goes and still doesn't completely explain I suppose. I have no explanation for why some men are more popular than others. Factors of country of origin, style, looks, timing, media influence - the list is long.
Country of origin could be a factor in other circumstances but like I said, Graf got neutral crowds behind her. At both AO and RG especially. Wimbledon too was extremely fond of her. Strangely, USO wasn't ever so enamoured of her (and historically too, the USO crowd does not warm up to introverted players even if Americans generally might appreciate them more). It got so that in the 95 final, Seles was urging the crowd to appreciate Graf's winners and clapped all alone because nobody in the crowd was. Would that she had been more ruthless and just focused on beating Graf instead!

But again, as a straight male very much privy to so called locker room talk, I have encountered so many guys and particularly people who are not even close to as invested in tennis as the good ol' folks here at TT, drooling over her looks. Older guys were still so much in thrall over their teenage infatuation over her looks that they would rate her even above Kournikova, Ivanovic or Sharapova. Now THAT blew my mind, hahahaha.
 

skaj

Legend
Again, you don't know that. Conventionally attractive is not the only yardstick, unconventionally attractive will also do. You mean to say there were no Gaby fans for her looks? I swear I know guys who don't even watch tennis much and adore her looks.


I am not obsessed with you, I did not quote you in my first response to this thread. It was you who inserted yourself in a non existent debate and decided to pick up a fight. And then you complain I am making it about you. No, if you are so stubborn that you keep arguing about something like looks, that just because you don't find somebody attractive means it is necessarily the case that she wasn't, I can't help you.

What is this, opposite Monday? I am really not sure what to think, are you trolling or you really don't understand.

1) You cannot know something like that, just like you cannot know that Graf was popular in good part because of her looks. It is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that, unlike in the case of Borg, her looks were not an important factor when it comes to her popularity, not at all - because she was not considered good looking by the masses/modern standards(on a contrary). If you think differently, fine with me.
2) I have said that Sabatini, unlike Graf, was conventionally good looking, so I think that many people were her fans because of that. I don't understand your spin.
3) I quoted the post, I responded to what was written because I didn't agree with it. I did not write about you or your personality, nor am I interested in those. You did that.
4) I have said in this thread already - who I or you think is attractive is irrelevant for the discussion. What's relevant is the standard, what masses find attractive.
 

skaj

Legend
And look at this, at 1:25 I swear Jay Leno is checking her out. She seems to have been quite sporting about it.



Yes, he is charming his female guests and giving them compliments, that was his approach in the show. Letterman also.
 
Up until the early 1970s, the sport of Tennis was viewed by many as being a Sport for the Elites!

Even though many of the great champions up until then had come from very humble backgrounds, at the Grass Roots level, Tennis was not perceived as the Working Class Sport - that was reserved for things like the various flavours of Football, Baseball, Cricket and Basketball.

There was an incredible amount of "Tradition" and "Etiquette" that was involved in playing Tennis. And the people who ran the sport did so with those two things at front of mind.

The Open Era arrived and the sport started to become more professional. However, the sport was still driven by Tradition. In the early 1970s, the players who were dominating the sport still held the Traditions and Etiquette of the sport close to their hearts.

By the mid 1970s, the money in Tennis really started to take off. More and more players were attracted to the sport in pursuit of making money. Players like Nastase and Connors seemed to pay less attention to the Tradition and more attention to doing whatever it took to win!

Borg arrived. Here was a player who was the Prototype Modern Player of the Future. But he still demonstrated a great respect for the Traditions of the Sport. He showed incredible respect for the Officials and for his opponents. He honoured the sport every time he walked onto a Tennis court. For these reasons, he was loved by the Tennis Traditionalists. But at the same time, his looks and the way he played the game was very attractive to the average fan of sport. The fact that he won a lot helped as well.

I recall that when Borg started to dominate the sport, virtually every player, no matter how good they were, tried to copy Borg's roll the racquet head over the ball topspin forehand. A lot of players try to mimic Rafa's buggy whip forehand. But EVERYONE was trying to mimic Borg's stroke, literally everyone!

(As for the rest of the topic ... Lendl was never loved mainly because of his Eastern European connection and because he was so disliked in the Player's Dressing Room. Sampras was the consummate Tennis professonal. He easily connected to tennis fans who appreciated his skills, but he didn't really connect with the public at large. That could be mainly because Tennis had become soooo Professional by Sampras's time. And Sampras's inability to perform at a high level in Europe probably worked against him.)

Borg became "The Beatles" of Tennis. His success at Wimbledon made him the "King of Pop" so to speak. His fame reached all corners of the globe. When McEnroe arrived, his Bad Boy antics actually enhanced Borg's reputation. McEnroe was the Rebel. Borg, the Champion of the Traditionalists. Tennis was still a "Traditionalist" sport well into the 1980s.

The Borg/McEnroe movie has come in for a lot of criticism, especially from McEnroe himself. But the vibe of the movie conveys exactly what it felt like to be following Tennis in 1980.

In his playing days, Borg was an Enigma. If you look at the history of the sport and analyse all of its greatest champions, to this day, they are all Enigmas.

Imho, Borg transcended the sport. Few tennis players have done that ... Laver, Agassi maybe, and Federer.

For me, Borg actually saved the sport of tennis from oblivion. He played at a time when Tennis was losing it's global popularity. Borg is the main human link between the Traditional Game (pre 1975), and the Modern Professional Athletic Game we know today. He paved the way for a huge period of European dominance and popularity in the sport.

I think it is very fitting that the first two Captains of The Laver Cup are Borg and McEnroe. It is a testament to those three players and to Roger Federer to have come up with that blend for such a great Event.
 
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King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Up until the early 1970s, the sport of Tennis was viewed by many as being a Sport for the Elites!

Even though many of the great champions up until then had come from very humble backgrounds, at the Grass Roots level, Tennis was not perceived as the Working Class Sport - that was reserved for things like the various flavours of Football, Baseball, Cricket and Basketball.

There was an incredible amount of "Tradition" and "Etiquette" that was involved in playing Tennis. And the people who ran the sport did so with those two things at front of mind.

The Open Era arrived and the sport started to become more professional. However, the sport was still driven by Tradition. In the early 1970s, the players who were dominating the sport still held the Traditions and Etiquette of the sport close to their hearts.

By the mid 1970s, the money in Tennis really started to take off. More and more players were attracted to the sport in pursuit of making money. Players like Nastase and Connors seemed to pay less attention to the Tradition and more attention to doing whatever it took to win!

Borg arrived. Here was a player who was the Prototype Modern Player of the Future. But he still demonstrated a great respect for the Traditions of the Sport. He showed incredible respect for the Officials and for his opponents. He honoured the sport every time he walked onto a Tennis court. For these reasons, he was loved by the Tennis Traditionalists. But at the same time, his looks and the way he played the game was very attractive to the average fan of sport. The fact that he won a lot helped as well.

I recall that when Borg started to dominate the sport, virtually every player, no matter how good they were, tried to copy Borg's roll the racquet head over the ball topspin forehand. A lot of players try to mimic Rafa's buggy whip forehand. But EVERYONE was trying to mimic Borg's stroke, literally everyone!

(As for the rest of the topic ... Lendl was never loved mainly because of his Eastern European connection and because he was so disliked in the Player's Dressing Room. Sampras was the consummate Tennis professonal. He easily connected to tennis fans who appreciated his skills, but he didn't really connect with the public at large. That could be mainly because Tennis had become soooo Professional by Sampras's time. And Sampras's inability to perform at a high level in Europe probably worked against him.)

Borg became "The Beatles" of Tennis. His success at Wimbledon made him the "King of Pop" so to speak. His fame reached all corners of the globe. When McEnroe arrived, his Bad Boy antics actually enhanced Borg's reputation. McEnroe was the Rebel. Borg, the Champion of the Traditionalists. Tennis was still a "Traditionalist" sport well into the 1980s.

The Borg/McEnroe movie has come in for a lot of criticism, especially from McEnroe himself. But the vibe of the movie conveys exactly what it felt like to be following Tennis in 1980.

In his playing days, Borg was an Enigma. If you look at the history of the sport and analyse all of its greatest champions, to this day, they are all Enigmas.

Imho, Borg transcended the sport. Few tennis players have done that ... Laver, Agassi maybe, and Federer.

For me, Borg actually saved the sport of tennis from oblivion. He played at a time when Tennis was losing it's global popularity. Borg is the main human link between the Traditional Game (pre 1975), and the Modern Professional Athletic Game we know today. He paved the way for a huge period of European dominance and popularity in the sport.

I think it is very fitting that the first two Captains of The Laver Cup are Borg and McEnroe. It is a testament to those three players and to Roger Federer to have come up with that blend for such a great Event.
Wow, seems like I missed out on quite an era. That dynamic of the brash rebel vs the widely loved traditionalist seems quite reminiscent of Nadal vs Federer, or Djokovic vs Federer later on.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Borg was much better looking (at least the hordes of girls who mobbed him daily at Wimbledon thought so) and much more charismatic than McEnroe or Lendl. With his flowing blond locks and Mr. Cool image backed up by his tennis winning ways he was the first rock-star type player to appear on the tennis circuit. First and the best.

Interesting. I wasn't around at the time, but agree with much of what you say. However, was he really more charismatic than McEnroe? I'd say John has a lot of charisma as well, albeit in a very different way.
 
Better looking, more charismatic, more interesting, more of a people person. Dunno, something like that.

One big thing is he was also part of classic rivalries with Connors and McEnroe, amongst others. People also hated Connors and McEnroe for a long time, even in the U.S. So he naturally became the peoples favorite. Sampras and Lendl had virtually no stellar rivalries, the Sampras-Agassi rivalry was fleeting at best, and Lendl-Becker didn't play enough off of grass where Becker would always win. They were generally dominant with no real peer or consistent true rival, so the press labeled them as boring and bot-ish. That neither are particularly likeable personality wise just then made things worse.
 
Wow, seems like I missed out on quite an era. That dynamic of the brash rebel vs the widely loved traditionalist seems quite reminiscent of Nadal vs Federer, or Djokovic vs Federer later on.

The 1970s was a great time to be watching Tennis. Different Professional Tours with different levels of player loyalty. Lots of Big Event Exhibition Matches (eg. Smith-Court -vs- Riggs, Billie Jean King -vs- Riggs, Laver -vs- Borg). Wimbledon with the White Tennis Balls. US Open played on three different surfaces.

The twilight years of Laver. The rise of Connors, Borg, and then McEnroe. A clear demarcation between Clay Court specialists and Grass Court specialists. etc.

The world was a different place. And Tennis reflected it. The world was not obsessed with "money" the way it has become these days. "Professionalism" in Global sports was in its early stages of development.

The "Rebels" who were challenging the Status Quo, stood out like sore thumbs. McEnroe is the first to come to mind. But Connors and Vitas G. were quite rebellious. Nastase was off the planet. And there were others who shook the tree but because of limited success on the court are not remembered by many. "Image" did not dominate the sport the way it does today. Borg never deliberately set out to create an "Image". He just acted as himself. Again the Borg/McEnroe movie is a good guide to what Borg was like in real life. His real life son Leo, and the actor Sverrir Gudnason both portrayed him perfectly in the movie.

In the modern game, with all the Media attention, and all the social media, top players have to be very considerate of the image they portray both on and off the court. One wrong turn could cost them millions of dollars. MONEY is now the King of Tennis, not the Titles, not the actual sport itself. Sadly, this does influence the way the players behave on court. They are not really free to show their complete emotions ... which must be very difficult.

Look at Kyrgios .... he shows people exactly how he feels ... and he often get crucified for it.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
The 1970s was a great time to be watching Tennis. Different Professional Tours with different levels of player loyalty. Lots of Big Event Exhibition Matches (eg. Smith-Court -vs- Riggs, Billie Jean King -vs- Riggs, Laver -vs- Borg). Wimbledon with the White Tennis Balls. US Open played on three different surfaces.

The twilight years of Laver. The rise of Connors, Borg, and then McEnroe. A clear demarcation between Clay Court specialists and Grass Court specialists. etc.

The world was a different place. And Tennis reflected it. The world was not obsessed with "money" the way it has become these days. "Professionalism" in Global sports was in its early stages of development.

The "Rebels" who were challenging the Status Quo, stood out like sore thumbs. McEnroe is the first to come to mind. But Connors and Vitas G. were quite rebellious. Nastase was off the planet. And there were others who shook the tree but because of limited success on the court are not remembered by many. "Image" did not dominate the sport the way it does today. Borg never deliberately set out to create an "Image". He just acted as himself. Again the Borg/McEnroe movie is a good guide to what Borg was like in real life. His real life son Leo, and the actor Sverrir Gudnason both portrayed him perfectly in the movie.

In the modern game, with all the Media attention, and all the social media, top players have to be very considerate of the image they portray both on and off the court. One wrong turn could cost them millions of dollars. MONEY is now the King of Tennis, not the Titles, not the actual sport itself. Sadly, this does influence the way the players behave on court. They are not really free to show their complete emotions ... which must be very difficult.

Look at Kyrgios .... he shows people exactly how he feels ... and he often get crucified for it.
Great post. As for the last line, Kyrgios does more than just say what's on his mind. There are plenty of people who are brutally honest without being arrogant jerks (Fognini and Medvedev for example, even young Djokovic).
 
As for the last line, Kyrgios does more than just say what's on his mind. There are plenty of people who are brutally honest without being arrogant jerks (Fognini and Medvedev for example, even young Djokovic).

But Kyrgios belongs to a different generation that the others you mention.

Will be interesting to observe how some of the other young guys like Tsitispas, Zverev, Rublev, Shapovalov, De Minaur, et al behave if they don't achieve a lot of early success.

I don't think that players like Fogi, Medvedev, and Novak have the same sense of "Self Entitlement" as the guys that have followed them. Time will tell.
 

DMP

Professional
I wasn't around to see Borg play, but I've watched some of his old matches, and many of them, especially his clay duels against Vilas were.....for lack of a better word, boring.

Matchups are what determines if matches are interesting. This match v Panatta gives an entirely different view of Borg's play on clay.


Borg was 18 at the time.
 

heftylefty

Hall of Fame
Borg was and still is one of the coolest athletes ever. More than a few years back GQ had a list of their Coolest Athletes. Only two tennis player made the cut. Borg and Ashe.
 
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