ForehandRF
Legend
No, the thing is that you use every opportunity to diminish his achievements and almost every post of you is about this.
Most overrated player on tour currently?
- Thread starter Yugram
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BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
He is overrated when 70% of the forum is on his willy, proclaiming he is the GOAT despite his disappearing records and relatively poor record against his two main rivals.
Peak Federer lost to Nalbandian on indoors several finals, including WTF. I've seen a 27 year old Federer lose to Ivo Karlovic, and 2006 Federer lost in the 2nd round of Cincinatti to a 19 year old Andy Murray.
2011 Djokovic lost in the WTF to David Ferrer in straight sets (6-3, 6-1) and to Tisparevic and got elimianted in the RR.
Even at their best... a given day, they could lose against a lot of players, not just Nadal.
At his peak on grass, how many players could beat Nadal there other than Nole and Roger? The guy played 5 consecutive Wimbledon finals. It seems that you are just using best-case scenarios for Federer and average scenarios for Nadal.
stingstang
Professional
Zverev by far. It was a miracle he reached the USO final. I can’t remember the last time a men’s player performed at such a **** level every match and got so far. Coric & PCB both should have beaten him but choked. Zverev then chokes final himself with 68mph serves.
Also de Minaur, FAA, Tiafoe.
Also de Minaur, FAA, Tiafoe.
The question wasn't who will win a slam or not, I just added that as a category as I think the players in that list lack the necesary talent/potential/weapons to win a slam. Do I think Kyrgios will win a slam? No. Do I think he is the real deal, ahhh yeah - the bloke is batting at .5 against he big 3 and wins titles without training, if you don't think he's the real deal you've got rocks in your head.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
The only decent trap Shapovalov's made to date is to trap half this forum into thinking that he was going to be a slam contender by now.
Not ruling out the possibility in the future though with this era.
Has kyrgios won anything above 250 level? His game except serve is pretty below average. You don't win slams with serve alone - but you could sometimes beat big players being clutch. I don't buy excuse "he doesnt care of Tennis." It's convenient excuse to cover his failures - it like like Murray's "mental problems". In Reality he doesn't have enough game to win big titles. He is no Nalby or Safin kind of talented headcase. He lacks talent in first place.
He has won at 500 level. I believe Acapulco and Washington.
Apparently Japan as well
Still no Masters. (Even Zverev has 3) May be one or two Slam quarters in his entire career? That doesn't look like player with Slam potential.
He did make a masters final.
Politely Disagree. Not sure beating Rafa in the fourth round of Wimby at 18 puts you in any other category. Not sure there is a player on tour who has come close to beating all of the big three in their first match up.
"His game except serve is pretty below average" -- ...if that was the case Isner, karlovic, raonic etc would have as much success against the top guys as he does. When he is focused his ground game is way way wayyyy above that of other big servers.
It's pretty clear that if he put his head down, worked on fitness / his game, that he would play better. Top 3 server on tour with an underrated forehand, great touch, and most importantly; plays better the bigger the stakes.
Saying he will /won't win a slam is a different question as to whether a player is over/under-rated and I think you're getting them confused purely because I added a category of players who I don't think will ever win one.
Exactly. In a "play for your life scenario", you need to take the peak/prime version of each player on each surface.
Peak/Prime Nadal in Best Of 5 on Grass, Hard and Clay can defeat anyone (including Federer and Djokovic). Peak/Prime Djokovic and Federer have almost no chance against Nadal on clay at an event like Roland Garros.
If I'm picking any player at his peak/prime on all surfaces to play for my life, it would always be Nadal first.
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Tennis_Freak99
Legend
2011 Djokovic would beat peak Nadal everywhere off clay
Nadal beat "peak gluten free Djokovic" at the US Open final in 2013.
A peak doesn't only last for one season when they are winning.LOL!
And Djokovic never beat peak Nadal on Grass. Nadal's grass peak was 2006-2010.
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
2013 Djokovic was Prime, not peak
Get your facts straight. In that case Novak beat peak Nadal on all surfaces, Wimbledon and USO in 2011. LOL
Prime, peak, ....Tomat-O, ToMAHto.
My point stands. Call it prime if you like, as exact peaks are never certain. But Nadal could beat Novak on every surface in slams in his surface primes. Novak could never do it on clay.
There is a reason the slam H2H is 10-6 to Rafa. In the biggest matches (presumably the ones your life will be played for, not some random tour match), Nadal dominates Djokovic.
I enjoy living. I'll stick with my choice of Peak/Prime Rafa on any surface playing for my life. If you wanna take your chances on Novak, good luck to you.
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DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Peak Nadal on grass beat GrassGOAT Federer in the greatest match. 2011 Djokovic couldn't even beat Clayerer. 2008 Nadal would beat 2011 Djokovic on grass. Great match for the attendance, since there's a legit chance of a breadstick being served with the strawberry and cream.
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
Shapo and Kyrgios.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
Idea for a new kid show: Goat Mask!
With Novak Djokovic as Hardgoat! (slides into scene wearing blue bodysuit and mask)
Rafa Nafal as Claygoat! (runs into scene wearing red bodysuit and mask)
And Roger Federer as Grassgoat! (Walks into scene wearing green bodysuit, mask, and matching purse)
Born_to_slice
Legend
Sinner. Kid has potential but the hype is overblown.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Talk about players at the best, choose their worst matches when they were far from it due to being injured/exhausted.
D
Deleted member 775898
Guest
You must be insane to pick Federer over Nadal for a match where your life depends on it, I would never choose 40-15rer to play for my life, NEVER !
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
I would pick young Fed to play for my life. 2004-07 Fed all day. He was 7-0 in Slam finals at one point (and 7-2 in semis). The cracks started to show in his mental armor after Nadal started breaking his confidence.
Even in their best seasons and at their prime they can lose matches to "lesser" players.
What is stupid is just to think that Fed or Nole would be unbeatable in those hypothetical matches on grass and HC and take Nadal's average performances. 2008 Nadal was literally unbeatable on grass and he defeated Djokovic and Roddick (Queens) and Federer and Murray at Wimbledon that year.
So if we are being nitpicky about primes and players at their best, then 2008 Nadal on grass should be as safe of a bet as picking Federer or Djokovic at their best.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
No, because they reached a higher level at their best.
By winning Wimbledon? Just like Nadal in 08?
Zardoz7/12
Hall of Fame
Medvedev
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nadal lost 2 slam finals from a break up in the 5th.
D
Deleted member 775898
Guest
If the match my life depends on it would be a Slam final against Philippoussis, Baghdatis, Gonzales or 35 year old Agassi, then I could consider Mr Ballerina as an option. But otherwise, I'm definitely taking 2008 Nadal or 2011 Djokovic over any version of Fed without hesitation.
D
Deleted member 775898
Guest
And Novak during his prime got routined by Muzza and Stanimal in multiple Slam finals. But nothing comes close to 40-15.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Hey, it's ok. 38 year old Fed choked, but I doubt Djokodal will even be that good at 38.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Are all wins the same? lol
am1899
Legend
Its not only 38 yr old. Same thing happened at 30 and 29. He has lost 3 times from 40-15. Once its a fluke but thrice? I understand in 2010 it was 15-40 but still
mike danny
Bionic Poster
In 2010 he was playing poorly. Did not deserve to win.
In 2011 he choked, but is Nadal getting clobbered in the final much better?
We were discussing mental problems and choking tendency of Fed which is more than any other ATG imo.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Which mostly started after he turned 30. Wouldn't have these issies against the Thiem's and the Zverev's of this world.
asifallasleep
Hall of Fame
LOL, Wow. You guys that liked this comment are clueless.
Of active players, only Andy Murray (five), Novak Djokovic (seven) and Rafael Nadal (18), reached more finals as a teenager!!
20 years old and ranked 21.
6 finals losses and 4 of the guys are way better players at this point:
| Result | W–L | Date | Tournament | Tier | Surface | Opponent | Score |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Loss | 0–1 | Feb 2019 | Rio Open, Brazil | 500 Series | Clay | Laslo Đere | 3–6, 5–7 |
| Loss | 0–2 | May 2019 | Lyon Open, France | 250 Series | Clay | Benoît Paire | 4–6, 3–6 |
| Loss | 0–3 | June 2019 | Stuttgart Open, Germany | 250 Series | Grass | Matteo Berrettini | 4–6, 6–7(11–13) |
| Loss | 0–4 | Feb 2020 | Rotterdam Open, Netherlands | 500 Series | Hard (i) | Gaël Monfils | 2–6, 4–6 |
| Loss | 0–5 | Feb 2020 | Open 13, France | 250 Series | Hard (i) | Stefanos Tsitsipas | 3–6, 4–6 |
| Loss | 0–6 | Oct 2020 | Bett1Hulks Indoors, Germany | 250 Series | Hard (i) | Alexander Zverev | 3–6, 3–6 |
Can Federer or Nole do better than 2008 Nadal on grass? He beat both, plus Murray and Roddick that season and won everything on grass. Maybe they can do equal, but better in a season? Nope.
At 20, Zverev won 2 masters (5 overall titles), finished 4th in the world and had 11 wins over top 10 players including 2 on Federer and 1 on Novak. FAA at 20, has only 2 wins over top 10 players (and both are against Tsitsipas).
He is young and can obviously improve a lot, but he is already falling behind. Teenage records are fine but kinda pointless if you cant keep up.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
They have done better by displaying a higher level of play...
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