NatF
Bionic Poster
As long as I get credit lol.
Who is the best returner of all time
- Thread starter steenkash
- Start date
As long as I get credit lol.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
You already do on my current sig
it's because rafa plays a lot more on clay than nole and he is GOAT with a big G on that surface. and on the clay both serve and return are less important as it is much more often you put the ball in play and points are on average longer there. rafa has played more than 40% of his matches on clay (52% on hard and only 7,5% on grass) while nole has played less than 25% of his matches on clay (64% on hard and 10% on grass). larger percentage clay matches = greater chance of higher percentage return points won.
return points won % on clay
| 12 | SRB | Novak Djokovic | 43.55% |
return points won % on hard
| 19 | ESP | Rafael Nadal | 40.32% |
return points won % on grass
| 18 | SRB | Novak Djokovic | 39.56% |
| 69 | ESP | Rafael Nadal | 37.22% |
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fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
Hey man that's my favorite Nadal clip to troll the brigade with.
Although we can get PimPim second serve acing him too maybe.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
P
PETEhammer
Guest
As an...18? year old I believe?
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Holy f*** that was brutal
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Fedr
D
Deleted member 748597
Guest
Wurm
Professional
Exactly. The friction of the clay grabs at the ball that bit more than on other surfaces and the way the ball digs in to the top surface on impact, thus transferring so much ball speed to the vertical plane, blunts the serve enough to make it that little bit easier to return and fine margins make a big difference in a sport where you can win more than 40% of the points in a set and still lose it 6-0 (...I'm not over this happening to me a couple of weeks ago).
Also, with the modern technology someone like Rafa can be signing autographs for the front row when he's returning and still not have to worry much about someone trying to s&v as their first volley will be a nightmare to control due to how hard hit and loaded with spin the ball is.
The end result is that it's much easier for a relatively speaking average, compared to the all time greats of returning (obviously he's still very good at it by normal player standards), returner such as Rafa to neutralise the serve on clay than when he's playing on other surfaces and thus matches on clay are much less serve dominated than surfaces with faster, skiddier bounces.
It's not like any of this is new.
uscwang
Hall of Fame
Oh sh*t this.. Granted the leaders are clay court specialists or heavy, so that probably is a big factor. Novak gets my vote still.
Cannot argue about the numbers. But I can argue whether returning well is still a good thing.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Karatsev featuring is kinda interesting. Don't @ me.
edberg volleys
Hall of Fame
Novak. Even though Agassi is agassi when it comes to ROS, Nole's ability to return better placed serves is much better. And do not even say that Agassi takes ball earlier than Novak. He (Agassi) toke it very early but so does Novak like all his groundies.
jussumman
Hall of Fame
When you say return well, you mean the quality of the returns? because this statistic measures points won in return game, as the objective measurement...
Shorter guys like Nishikori, Schwartzman, Agassi, the return game is their counter to the ace edge of taller players that neutralizes the match. They have to return well or they have no chance. Djokovic returns better on all surfaces than everyone I think.
P
PETEhammer
Guest
More ad hominem against a poster you disagree with. Rather than attack the argument, you attack the person.
Sad.
ark_28
Legend
Crazy Finn
Hall of Fame
Statistics don't say everything. They might be numerically accurate, but even statistics need context.
Best Offensive Returner: Agassi - took the ball early in an era of fast surfaces and used the return as a weapon. Points that previous comments have brought up about guessing and getting aced are valid, but were also somewhat of a product of the fast surfaces he played on. There might be more fast serves in the modern game, but court surfaces are slower. Standing near the baseline, taking the ball early, taking time away from opponents - no one did it better than Andre.
Best Defensive Returner: Rafa and Murray - Rafa might stand almost in the front row of spectators, but again, it's partly a product of the surface speed and era he plays in. Works great on clay, works decently on other surfaces. Murray was excellent as well at just getting it back.
Best all around Returner: Djokovic - combines most of the defense of Murray and Rafa, and adds the ability to push the opponent back with deep, consistent returns. They usually don't win points spectacularly (though sometimes), but always getting the ball back deep works great in USTA leagues and also on the ATP Tour. No one constantly negates the advantage of the server on a point as consistently as Novak.
The original best Returner: Connors - combined bits of all of the above during the woodie era (of course, Connors himself used that steel T2000 thing) to be very dangerous - even carrying this over the post woodie era.
Gotta mention Nalbandian, Hewitt, and Ferrer here too.
Well, at least it's pulled from the ATP website as opposed to being cherrypicked number salad. But, other than that, yeah...
Best Offensive Returner: Agassi - took the ball early in an era of fast surfaces and used the return as a weapon. Points that previous comments have brought up about guessing and getting aced are valid, but were also somewhat of a product of the fast surfaces he played on. There might be more fast serves in the modern game, but court surfaces are slower. Standing near the baseline, taking the ball early, taking time away from opponents - no one did it better than Andre.
Best Defensive Returner: Rafa and Murray - Rafa might stand almost in the front row of spectators, but again, it's partly a product of the surface speed and era he plays in. Works great on clay, works decently on other surfaces. Murray was excellent as well at just getting it back.
Best all around Returner: Djokovic - combines most of the defense of Murray and Rafa, and adds the ability to push the opponent back with deep, consistent returns. They usually don't win points spectacularly (though sometimes), but always getting the ball back deep works great in USTA leagues and also on the ATP Tour. No one constantly negates the advantage of the server on a point as consistently as Novak.
The original best Returner: Connors - combined bits of all of the above during the woodie era (of course, Connors himself used that steel T2000 thing) to be very dangerous - even carrying this over the post woodie era.
Gotta mention Nalbandian, Hewitt, and Ferrer here too.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
I think we all just need to take a moment and appreciate how Federer got that return a couple inches away from the baseline with a one-hander.
Ace of Aces
Semi-Pro
He’s not quite as good as Djokovic or Agassi against the median ATP serve, but Murray does better against the massive servers than anyone
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
so djokovic then. yeah i agreeThe answer is here
Leaderboard | ATP Tour | Tennis
Statistical measures of the best-performing players in three key categories in men's professional tennis.www.atptour.com
ATP Leaderboard of ROS of all time
ATP Leaderboard of ROS last 52 weeks
GoldenMasters
Semi-Pro
Djokovic.
Club 310 Fedovic
Club 310 Fedovic
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
No. The point of the return is to get the ball into the court where the opponent has to hit at least one more shot. The return GAME is about winning the point. This is precisely why Nadal is considerably down in winning return games on hard and clay, because of his return. It's relatively weak because of his court position. This is why Nadal has arguably the best clay return in the history of the game. His court position does not hurt him on clay.
Wurm
Professional
Diego Schwartzman making it to world #8 isn't about his ability to serve, is it? There's a strong argument for his returning being up there among the very best but he simply can't pull off the defensive returns on the stretch the likes of Novak can so he's not the complete package... Besides, people like to conflate a great player doing an aspect of the game exceptionally well with that player thus being the best ever at it (e.g. Sampras/Federer and serving) so someone such as Schwartzman gets short shrift in such discussions.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
Year after year the return games won on clay is higher than other surfaces for the top 10, top 20, top 50 or top 100 players. This is simply a fact, if you are interested in facts.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
So lightning quick returning serve they couldn’t even take a picture of him.Yup, who can forget that beast Guillermo Perez Roldan and his monstrous return.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
@clayqueen
For those who want facts:
If you are using the ATP as a source, be aware that their stats have always been seriously questionable, but with Covid they have gone to the dogs. There used to be lists of at least the top hundred for each year. Now they are gone.
When you go back farther, it gets worse:
Can we trust this? Now, we can't. Where is Coria?
www.atptour.com
That's just the start of it.
Let's try hard:
No Agassi, and again there are a lot more missing.
How about serving on grass:
www.atptour.com
Sampras is missing.
This is since Covid. All around the world people are getting fired because they are not "essential". That includes anyone competent who used to maintain these stats. Trust NOTHING from the ATP.
For those who want facts:
If you are using the ATP as a source, be aware that their stats have always been seriously questionable, but with Covid they have gone to the dogs. There used to be lists of at least the top hundred for each year. Now they are gone.
When you go back farther, it gets worse:
Can we trust this? Now, we can't. Where is Coria?
Return Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis
www.atptour.com
That's just the start of it.
Let's try hard:
No Agassi, and again there are a lot more missing.
How about serving on grass:
Service Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis
www.atptour.com
Sampras is missing.
This is since Covid. All around the world people are getting fired because they are not "essential". That includes anyone competent who used to maintain these stats. Trust NOTHING from the ATP.
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
The ROS stats haven’t changed in years. I’ve been pointing them out to TV commentators who are also under the impression that Djokovic is the best returner in the history of the game.@clayqueen
For those who want facts:
If you are using the ATP as a source, be aware that their stats have always been seriously questionable, but with Covid they have gone to the dogs. There used to be lists of at least the top hundred for each year. Now they are gone.
When you go back farther, it gets worse:
Can we trust this? Now, we can't. Where is Coria?
Return Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis
That's just the start of it.
Let's try hard:
No Agassi, and again there are a lot more missing.
How about serving on grass:
Service Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis
Sampras is missing.
This is since Covid. All around the world people are getting fired because they are not "essential". That includes anyone competent who used to maintain these stats. Trust NOTHING from the ATP.
I suggest that you use UTS for this discussion. It is great for analysis (you can pick up surfaces and other parameters).
Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Statistics Leaders
Tennis statistics leaders by more than 100 figures filtered by various filters
www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com
HailDjokovic
Semi-Pro
Agassi as the best offensive returner, Djokovic for getting the ball back no matter what type of serve it is. Djokovic is a 2x more consistent returner than Agassi.
I would still take Djokovic as his return has won him numerous Grand Slams + Masters.. He has the most memorable returns in tennis history. Having a break on Djokovic literally means nothing.
And despite the number of Fed/Nadal fans in the forum, look at the poll right now. It's hard to argue.
I would still take Djokovic as his return has won him numerous Grand Slams + Masters.. He has the most memorable returns in tennis history. Having a break on Djokovic literally means nothing.
And despite the number of Fed/Nadal fans in the forum, look at the poll right now. It's hard to argue.
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OldschoolKIaus
Hall of Fame
Gilles Simon.
Easy power, great depth. flat as hell.
Easy power, great depth. flat as hell.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
Yes, this is a much better source, but be warned that they sometimes are unable to fully correct bad stats from the ATP.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
That reasoning is flawed. Having an early break on ANY of these monster returners was no guarantee for winning, which is why Nadal on grass in 2008 was unstoppable. When you are winning 50% of your return games, this is what you need to get to 60% of games:
70/50
In other words, with just 70% of return games he would have been very dangerous and might have snuck in a slam at RG. So you have to look at the balance.
If you are winning 95% of your service games at Wimbledon, you need:
95/25
That gets you to 60% of games, and 60% of game can win and has. In some years considerably less.
Considering serve or return without considering both gets you nowhere.
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Sampras missing - nuff said, stats are flawed.@clayqueen
For those who want facts:
If you are using the ATP as a source, be aware that their stats have always been seriously questionable, but with Covid they have gone to the dogs. There used to be lists of at least the top hundred for each year. Now they are gone.
When you go back farther, it gets worse:
Can we trust this? Now, we can't. Where is Coria?
Return Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis
That's just the start of it.
Let's try hard:
No Agassi, and again there are a lot more missing.
How about serving on grass:
Service Games Won | ATP Tour | Tennis
Sampras is missing.
This is since Covid. All around the world people are getting fired because they are not "essential". That includes anyone competent who used to maintain these stats. Trust NOTHING from the ATP.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The career numbers continually change, but they change slowly. That's not the same as not changing.
The yearly numbers go up and down dramatically.
Regardless, there are at least 3 surfaces (clay, hard, grass), if you do not nuance in variations (indoor hard, outdoor.) If you want to get a good idea of the relative strengths, take the Big 3. Then get the numbers on each surface.
If you are using the all surface stats, you will get things that are incredibly skewed to the surface. Return numbers are way higher on clay, service numbers are way higher on grass. Both are somewhat in between on hard.
You can easily argue for Nadal as having the best return game on clay, though you would really want to take a look at Borg, and maybe Vilas. For hard Nadal is good, but clearly not close to the top.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. Even when all the stats were there, some years the whole year was wrong. In 2003 total points won is utterly wrong. For instance, Fed says 58% of points on hard. That is flat out impossible. Joker made it to 56%. The worst thing is when the ATP screws up, it's forever.
People blindly trust numbers without verifying if those numbers are correct.
skaj
Legend
You'd rather not know the facts.
Which facts?
skaj
Legend
Well, that's one aspect of it. You should check the post #20.
CYGS
Legend
Whatever you say, boomers.
Jason Swerve
Hall of Fame
The Dragon probably served better than half the Top 10 out now.
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
Leaderboard | ATP Tour | Tennis
Statistical measures of the best-performing players in three key categories in men's professional tennis.
www.atptour.com
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Completely agree - one poster in this thread quite rightly asked how they are calculated and complete radio silence from the stat believers. Firmly believe that all data is situational or contextual and cold number study does not reflect that one jot.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
The only numbers I trust totally are games, and that's because they are public record. We can look up scores. Even there we find problems in the early open era because some events were not counted and thus not part of the data. In some cases we can't even find scores. It gets increasingly murky in the 60s and 50s for the pros. But since then it's pretty solid.
But when you look up aces, and points, that's not even accurate if someone miscounts or misrecords. When you get to things like UEs, who decides? If you read about unreturned serves, where is the line? The ball touches the outside of the frame? How about if the ball hits the racket full on but just kind of dribbles down on the court. How about a return that goes into the stands? Or one that hits the chair ump? How low into the net does it need to be to be counted? What about a net cord the falls back? Sure, the point is lost, but it's about an inch away from being a winner. I don't even understand how the define these things.
There are very few pure facts in tennis.
RS
Bionic Poster
uscwang
Hall of Fame
Looking back at that 2011 USO semifinal, I still believe that the ball kid who didn't help Novak with his towel after MP #1 (check out the video at 0:59 to see how Federer was helped), single-handedly changed the course of tennis history.
That long and lonely walk Novak had to take to get his towel, that "are you going to support me now?" gesture, and the reluctant applause that followed created such a dramatic effect, which turned out to be too much for Federer to handle.
RS
Bionic Poster
Bit harsh lol.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
This is ****ing hilarious.
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