NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
Yeah who has the more Madrid titles? Care to tell me. Also, tell me if Rafa is same player in Bo5 on clay as he's in bo3.
Nadal on hardcourt vs Djokovic on clay
- Thread starter NoleFam
- Start date
Yeah who has the more Madrid titles? Care to tell me. Also, tell me if Rafa is same player in Bo5 on clay as he's in bo3.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Less dependent on opponent level.
Having the highest peak and consistency both is superior of course, that's why Fed is the OE best.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Nadal has more Madrid titles than Novak so no. Lol
T
TheNachoMan
Guest
But Nadal fans also argue that there’s only one clay slam so it isn’t a fair comparison to HC.If in the Djokovic cinematic universe we can do enough mental gymnastics to argue that 2 Slams > 6 Slams…
Then are Nadal and Murray also better at Wimbledon than Djokovic?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Fed doesn't have consistency... he fizzled out at HC slams after 2009 until he finally got a resurgence in 2017-2018 AO nearly 10 years later.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Well it might appear "stupid" if your comprehension is....well off. Nadal has played 649 matches on hardcourt and Djokovic has played 316 on clay. That's a difference of 331 matches. Djokovic's record is 26-25. Nadal's is 29-43. I think it's pretty clear what I was saying.
We already know Djokovic had just as impressive wins on clay as peak Federer on hardcourt.
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The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Nope. I've been saying it many times...
13 clay > 12 hc
6 hc = 6 grass
2 grass = 2 clay
21 > 20
Nothing unfair about that...
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Saying because he's better against one player doesn't support your argument. That's because he just matches up better against Federer on every surface. Well...he did when he was younger at least.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Yeah overall 300+ matches... but your sentence was poorly constructed as it implies that Nadal had 300+ more matches v top 5 on hc compared to Novak on clay...
Out of Nadal's 43 losses 10 to Federer and 20 to Djokovic...
Novak's 25 losses 19 were to Nadal (not sure if he was top 5 in all of those matches either) so my point stands. If there was another Nadal running around Novak's record v top 5 would've been worse.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic has 3/9 Madrid titles. That's 33.3%. Nadal has 4/13 titles. That's 30.8%. How do you see this going if Djokovic played Madrid 4 more times including years where he skipped it in 2014 and 2015, at his peak?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
And Novak matches up better against Nadal... so what's your point?
Federer is the other guy on 20 slams, matches vs him are far more significant than matches against Thiem or Davydenko...
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Ok but he still has losing head to heads to Davydenko, Del Potro, etc.
It's a flimsy argument because he won that head to head against prime and late prime Federer. He lost it against older Federer who was not as good as he was when he was younger. Federer shouldn't have had the complete advantage like he did when he got older but he did. This is a strike against Nadal.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Yeah just like Nadal's US Open title lead 4/15 26.6% vs 3/16 18.7%...
It would be far more then if he wasn't forced to skip it in 2012 ,2014 and 2020
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
If in the Djokovic cinematic universe we can do enough mental gymnastics to argue that 2 Slams > 6 Slams…
Then are Nadal and Murray also better at Wimbledon than Djokovic?
This falls in line with Nadal being greater. I said that in the 1st sentence and I don't think anyone would argue who is greater. Clearly it's Nadal because of the Slam count, supported by 2 hardcourt Slams. The question is who is overall a better player on the surfaces.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yeah just like Nadal's US Open title lead 4/15 26.6% vs 3/16 18.7%...
It would be far more then if he wasn't forced to skip it in 2012 ,2014 and 2020
It just helps his percentage that he skipped them...at least 2 of them. Lol.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Novak also has a losing h2h v Thiem and Wawrinka at RG... even 1-1 v Fed at RG, Nadal has 3-1 v Fed.
It's not a strike against Nadal to have a better h2h on hc v Federer than Novak v Fed on clay lol.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
IndoorHCdal sucks, something to factor in for this debate
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
IndoorClayovic got bagelled in a Slam final though
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
You boys are too immature to actually have a decent argument with me. You have to throw around the word stupid because you're scrambling to come back with something legit. Lol. If this topic is too much for you, you could have sat it out.
I gave you a question. You didn't answer it and rambling about some bs that doesn't make sense. Rafa has won less than 10 matches on clay? What are even you talking about?
Wtf is Serbian universe? I'm not Serbian and never been to Serbia. You just stuck your foot in your mouth. Yea I think you're done.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Always. It’s a 24/7/365 job
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He doesn't have a losing record to either on clay though and the sample size is rather small to bring up the head to head with Wawrinka at RG. They only played one match.
He doesn't though, at least not overall.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
spottishwood
Hall of Fame
Classic TTW debate thread
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
Played one indoor clay tournament in his career and made the finalIndoorClayovic got bagelled in a Slam final though
Nadal has had a go at WTF too many times and still didn't win it
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The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Nadal doesn't have a losing record to Davydenko at HC slams either...
He has. Most of his losses come form indoor hc. outdoor hc he still leads comfortably.
RS
Bionic Poster
Federer would still lag behind Nadal in BO5. Sure make the case vs Novak though
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Played one indoor clay tournament in his career and made the final
Nadal has had a go at WTF too many times and still didn't win it
Nadal has missed 7 times... plus got injured during another one where he pulled out. So that's 8....
Wilander is 5th and djokovic is 6th in my opinion
In HCs you have many competitors..Wawrinka,Delpo,Murray,Nadal > on bo5
Novak > on bo3
It’s close though. Fedovic fans tell me clay competition is weak in this era and hard is strong, wonder how that factors in
Nishikori. Even current breed of Next Gens Zverev,Alcaraz,Korda,FAA are better on HC than they are on clay.
Clay competition has been down since 2012. Fed wasn't a factor on clay since 2011. He stopped playing after 2015. Murray tried to fill Federers shoe but wasn't consistent with his performance. Thiem was never a match for Nadal as he won only 1 set out of 3 matches he played against Nadal. It was again djokovic the only worthy opponent for Nadal on clay for the past decade specially at RG.
RS
Bionic Poster
Let it go man.
.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
And Borg won like 40% of the Slams he entered, guess he's way better than Nadal, then.
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
Djokovic needs one more RG to be at best equal IMHO.
Subway Tennis
Legend
Just circling back to the Nadal - Connors hardcourt thing..... Jimmy Connors might be the unluckiest ATG of them all when it comes to circumstantial timing.
I can't help but wonder if Connors may have ended up with EIGHT US Opens if it had always been a hardcourt major during his career.
I can't help but wonder if Connors may have ended up with EIGHT US Opens if it had always been a hardcourt major during his career.
abmk
Bionic Poster
how 8?
he has 5, including 74 on grass, 76 on har tru
even if you add 75 and 77, that'd be 7 tops
but that'd mean 5 in a row (74-78), which is pretty unlikely given with his serve. I can see maybe 6 (maybe grabs one of 75 and 77, but definitely not both)
Anyways given Newk was atleast a little spent from effort in 74 WCT, Connors got lucky with Newk's form dipping in Wim/USO leading to Rosewall upsetting him. Newk beat Connors in AO 75. So its not all bad luck for Connors.
But yes, he probably would've ended with like 8 HC slams if there were 2 HC slams (AO/USO).
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Egg because 2>>>>>6
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
itrium84
Hall of Fame
To the guys that gave Nadal a vote in the poll after seeing all this percentages - Winning less makes you greater?
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
NatF
Bionic Poster
Winning less? How do their slam counts look? Lol
itrium84
Hall of Fame
This thread ain't about the GS tournaments results comparison, but overall surface comparison. They did play other tournaments.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Personally, I think it's fine to argue for Nadal here but give a real valid reason why. Even if we limit it to Slams, look how they matched up against top players.
Nadal
Top 10 | 16-16
Top 5 | 8-8
Djokovic
Top 10 | 13-12
Top 5 | 7-9
They played the same number of matches against the top 5 although it's 1 Slam on clay versus 2 on hard. So I think it's close either way but Slam count doesn't determine who should be better because it's not a 1:1 comparison.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
You don’t get trophies for top 10 win percentage bestie.
D
Deleted member 762343
Guest
"Wayyyy better" is a stretch, maybe you forgot how good Djokovic was at Madrid and Rome 2011.
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