NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Some don't. They get them for playing no one in the top 20. Lol. Sorry but you walked into that one.
Nadal on hardcourt vs Djokovic on clay
- Thread starter NoleFam
- Start date
Some don't. They get them for playing no one in the top 20. Lol. Sorry but you walked into that one.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Some don't. They get them for playing no one in the top 20. Lol. Sorry but you walked into that one.
It’s called tennis
you can keep your stats
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
It’s called tennis
Beating the top 10 is tennis as well.
I had no intentions of giving them up.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I think I saw something somewhere that said that Fed beat more top 10 players at RG than Nadal at USO. Is that true?Beating the top 10 is tennis as well.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yep. 8 vs 7. Nadal has a higher percentage though but Federer played them much more at RG on average than Nadal did at the USO.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nadal at the USO will forever be an anomaly because of his 7-5 record against the top 10.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Agassi is 13-10 at the USO. He has 2 titles.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Probably every multiple time USO champion has a better record against the top 10.
Nadal fully deserved his titles, of course, as he did display a great level in 2010 and a good one in 2013 (don't think he was as good in 2013, fight me
) and nobody can take away his trophies, but this stat is so ridiculous that it can't be ignored
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Probably every multiple time USO champion has a better record against the top 10.
Nadal fully deserved his titles, of course, as he did display a great level in 2010 and a good one in 2013 (don't think he was as good in 2013, fight me
Well it's not a bad record but he didn't play them a lot. We can't knock it though because you can only beat who makes it to the match to play you. Totally earned his USO trophies.
Well I think the USO era after 2012 took a dip and never recovered. Players just often lose early in that Slam or out injured, etc. 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 (weird Slam because of covid) all had pretty weak fields. 2013, 2014 and 2015 weren't that strong either. The latter rounds is where the level of those Slams went up.
jl809
Hall of Fame
Taking a big 3 viewpoint:
W/L against the other 2 ATGs at slams:
HCdal - 5-3
Clayovic - 3-8
W/L against the other 2 ATGs in M1000s:
HCdal - 7-15
Clayovic - 11-20
HCdal has an Olympics SF win over Djokovic but this is hard to compare as there hasn’t been an Olympics on clay (yet)
This is clearly Nadal’s imo. His only unimpressive win in the slams was vs Fed at AO 2014, the others are some strong stuff which Nole hasn’t matched (and even in 2014 Nole went 2-2 against Fed that year on HC, losing right after the AO at Dubai).
Peak for peak, it’s also Rafa:
- at his peak Djokovic struggled with the matchup on clay against Federer, and his clay peak is clearly below Rafa’s clay peak (2011 was a huge achievement though)
- at his peak Nadal was a horrible matchup for Federer on HC (even in Nadal’s pre-peak) and his HC peak (2010-2013) is lower than Djokovic’s, but not by a lot. 2010 vs 2011 would have been a great match, 2012 was coin flip, and 2013 was Nad outdoors and Djok indoors
W/L against the other 2 ATGs at slams:
HCdal - 5-3
Clayovic - 3-8
W/L against the other 2 ATGs in M1000s:
HCdal - 7-15
Clayovic - 11-20
HCdal has an Olympics SF win over Djokovic but this is hard to compare as there hasn’t been an Olympics on clay (yet)
This is clearly Nadal’s imo. His only unimpressive win in the slams was vs Fed at AO 2014, the others are some strong stuff which Nole hasn’t matched (and even in 2014 Nole went 2-2 against Fed that year on HC, losing right after the AO at Dubai).
Peak for peak, it’s also Rafa:
- at his peak Djokovic struggled with the matchup on clay against Federer, and his clay peak is clearly below Rafa’s clay peak (2011 was a huge achievement though)
- at his peak Nadal was a horrible matchup for Federer on HC (even in Nadal’s pre-peak) and his HC peak (2010-2013) is lower than Djokovic’s, but not by a lot. 2010 vs 2011 would have been a great match, 2012 was coin flip, and 2013 was Nad outdoors and Djok indoors
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
By average level, Djokovic on clay is better than Nadal on hardcourt. In terms of achievements, Nadal is ahead (clearly).
Even if you normalize by # of slams on the surface, Nadal has 3/HC slam and Djokovic has 2/clay slam. I don't think the difference in accomplishments can be bridged by the rest of the achievements they have. However, if Djokovic wins another RG, then I would say his achievements are ahead.
To preempt anyone who would say simply "6 > 2", would you say Djokovic on hard court/grass (18 total slams) > Nadal on clay (13 slams)? I wouldn't, since Djokovic's 18 are distributed on 3 slams for a total of 6 on average per slam.
Even if you normalize by # of slams on the surface, Nadal has 3/HC slam and Djokovic has 2/clay slam. I don't think the difference in accomplishments can be bridged by the rest of the achievements they have. However, if Djokovic wins another RG, then I would say his achievements are ahead.
To preempt anyone who would say simply "6 > 2", would you say Djokovic on hard court/grass (18 total slams) > Nadal on clay (13 slams)? I wouldn't, since Djokovic's 18 are distributed on 3 slams for a total of 6 on average per slam.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic is 9-14 in clay Masters against those two. Looping in Federer makes it murky. Djokovic is 6-11 against Nadal in clay Masters. Nadal is 2-10 against Djokovic in hardcourt Masters. Clear edge for Djokovic. The edge for Nadal comes in Slams but he also played Djokovic a lot more at RG than he did at AO, their best Slams.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
yea but he couldn’t even beat 30 year old Fed at the French during his peak season in 2011
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Basically what I think. Nadal has more achievements and probably the most impressive wins at the Slam level. Djokovic has the better average level, thus better across all conditions on the surface.
RS
Bionic Poster
Federer is 3rd best in OE and 5th best all time.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
RS
Bionic Poster
With a 21st slam beating Nadal or Djokovic along the way that is arguable.1st and 2nd respectively
RS
Bionic Poster
If Djokovic gets to 4 RG titles I will give it to him for you
Last edited:
RS
Bionic Poster
abmk
Bionic Poster
that still relates to achievements and not level though. If fed somehow miraculously wins a slam playing mediocre tennis vs say the worst grass court draw, how does that make his level or him better, lol?
I mean it wouldn't remotely compare to Wim 08/11/14/15 from him, esp. Wim 08 right?
RS
Bionic Poster
It adds to achievements more than level yes.
D
Deleted member 762343
Guest
"Even" ? We’re talking about Federer here. That was a peak performance level from him that day. He was out of prime on paper but still able to produce peak tennis from time to time, as 30 years old isn’t that old. And that’s exactly what he did that day, he produced peak tennis. We can’t take only that one single match to conclude Djokovic’s clay peak wasn’t that good, it doesn’t work that way.
Peakdal on HC didn’t have the same consistency as peak Clayovic due to his injuries so there were many less instances of him being in a position where he could lose big matches while being in form.
InsideOut900
Legend
Didn't he play a better match there compared to most of his 2005-2010 performances anyway?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
From a different era.
But anyway... you've let the point fly over your head...
I actually threw that back at the clown suggesting that the percentages were more significant than actually winning titles....
TennisFan3
Talk Tennis Guru
I would put Novak top 3. Nadal, Borg, Novak, Lendl/Kuerten/Wilander.
Go ahead and scream at me for placing Novak over Lendl/Kurten/Wilander, when he has less RG titles.
I will counter by saying Novak will likely get another one soon. Plus Novak had to play (and also beat) the Clay God, which those other guys didn't.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Well.. He shouldn't be losing to a 30 year old Fed at the French if hes having arguably the most dominant season he ever had outside of 2015 should he? Nadal beat that Fed at the French in 2011 and Nadal was nothing to write home about that match. If Nadal already in clay decline by 2011 can beat Fed, then PEAK Djokovic should. Theres really no excuse. 2011 Nole produced some of the highest level of tennis ever. Why would he be losing to Fed whos already 3-4 years past it by that point at all?
You shouldn't be losing to 30 year olds when you're at peak at the end of the day
PerilousPear
Professional
Djokovic actually has a better record against Nadal on clay, than Nadal does against him on hard.
Djokovic is better against the field on clay, than Nadal is against the field on hard.
And if Nadal's better on HC than Djokovic is on clay as VB claims, why does Nadal keep ducking Djokovic on HC, whereas Djokovic just doesn't care at keeps facing Nadal time and time again on clay? I mean, he kept ducking him so much that their meetings on clay and hard are even despite the fact that clay season is about 1/3rd of HC season.
Djokovic is better against the field on clay, than Nadal is against the field on hard.
And if Nadal's better on HC than Djokovic is on clay as VB claims, why does Nadal keep ducking Djokovic on HC, whereas Djokovic just doesn't care at keeps facing Nadal time and time again on clay?
I mean, he kept ducking him so much that their meetings on clay and hard are even despite the fact that clay season is about 1/3rd of HC season.
D
Deleted member 762343
Guest
You’re fixating way too much on the 30 years old thing, it’s a bit ridiculous. It’s not some kind of disease or magical button that automatically lowered irremediably Federer’s level when on. Level of play is all that matters. Also, Claydal wasn’t in decline at all, he had won MC + Barcelone and made it to the final at Madrid and Rome with only Djokovic being able to stop him.
Nadal beat that Federer, so what ? Different matchup, Nadal has a huge matchup advantage over Fed which Djokovic doesn’t. And we’re talking about his best surface while it was Federer’s worst one.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Nadal wins the poll and rightly so.
6 Slams on hard > 2 Slams on clay.
Even if we consider that there are 2 Slams held on hard, if we divide 6 ÷ 2 = 3. Nadal averages 3 titles per Slam on hard, while Novak averages 2 titles per Slam on clay. 3 > 2.
P. S.: Slams are the most relevant all-time great criterion, with other criteria being mere tie-breakers in case two players are tied in the Slam count. If Djokovic wins his 3th RG we may revisit this comparison. Till now, Nadal wins.
6 Slams on hard > 2 Slams on clay.
Even if we consider that there are 2 Slams held on hard, if we divide 6 ÷ 2 = 3. Nadal averages 3 titles per Slam on hard, while Novak averages 2 titles per Slam on clay. 3 > 2.
P. S.: Slams are the most relevant all-time great criterion, with other criteria being mere tie-breakers in case two players are tied in the Slam count. If Djokovic wins his 3th RG we may revisit this comparison. Till now, Nadal wins.
Similar threads
- Poll
