NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
If the conditions were like Madrid then what do you think the answer is? Lol
Yeah who has the more Madrid titles? Care to tell me. Also, tell me if Rafa is same player in Bo5 on clay as he's in bo3.
If the conditions were like Madrid then what do you think the answer is? Lol
Why would higher peak mean better ? What makes that more important than consistency ?
If the conditions were like Madrid then what do you think the answer is? Lol
But Nadal fans also argue that there’s only one clay slam so it isn’t a fair comparison to HC.If in the Djokovic cinematic universe we can do enough mental gymnastics to argue that 2 Slams > 6 Slams…
Then are Nadal and Murray also better at Wimbledon than Djokovic?
Less dependent on opponent level.
Having the highest peak and consistency both is superior of course, that's why Fed is the OE best.
Why do you continue to make stupid comments? I thought you were up for a decent discussion...
Nadal has not played 300+ more matches vs the top 5 on hc compared to Novak on clay.
How many matches vs top 5 have they both had AND against whom? Sorry but beating Tsitsipas on clay is nowhere near as impressive as beating peak Federer on hc...
But Nadal fans also argue that there’s only one clay slam so it isn’t a fair comparison to HC.
Yeah and in 2015 and 2021 Nadal was a shell of his usual self...
Nadal's record v Fed bolsters it quite significantly... obviously older Nadal was two steps slower than his peak... this allowed Federer to take ascendency. But Nadal at his best was more often than not too much for Fed to handle including on HC where his only real success came on indoor hc. Novak otoh, never had any real ascendency over Federer on clay... this includes younger and older Federer... so it's blatantly obvious Nadal better on HC than Novak on clay.
Well it might appear "stupid" if you're comprehension is....well off. Nadal has played 649 matches on hardcourt and Djokovic has played 316 on clay. That's a difference of 331 matches. Djokovic's record is 26-25. Nadal's is 29-43. I think it's pretty clear what I was saying.
We already know Djokovic had just as impressive wins on clay as peak Federer on hardcourt.
Yeah who has the more Madrid titles? Care to tell me. Also, tell me if Rafa is same player in Bo5 on clay as he's in bo3.
Saying because he's better against one player doesn't support your argument. That's because he just matches up better against Federer on every surface. Well...he did when he was younger at least.
Yeah overall 300+ matches... but your sentence was poorly constructed as it implies that Nadal had 300+ more matches v top 5 on hc compared to Novak on clay...
Out of Nadal's 43 losses 10 to Federer and 20 to Djokovic...
Novak's 25 losses 19 were to Nadal (not sure if he was top 5 in all of those matches either) so my point stands. If there was another Nadal running around Novak's record v top 5 would've been worse.
Djokovic has 3/9 Madrid titles. That's 33.3%. Nadal has 4/13 titles. That's 30.8%. How do you see this going if Djokovic played Madrid 4 more times including years where he skipped it in 2014 and 2015, at his peak?
If in the Djokovic cinematic universe we can do enough mental gymnastics to argue that 2 Slams > 6 Slams…
Then are Nadal and Murray also better at Wimbledon than Djokovic?
Yeah just like Nadal's US Open title lead 4/15 26.6% vs 3/16 18.7%...
It would be far more then if he wasn't forced to skip it in 2012 ,2014 and 2020
Ok but he still has losing head to heads to Davydenko, Del Potro, etc.
It's a flimsy argument because he won that head to head against prime and late prime Federer. He lost it against older Federer who was not as good as he was when he was younger. Federer shouldn't have had the complete advantage like he did when he got older but he did. This is a strike against Nadal.
It just helps his percentage that he skipped them...at least 2 of them. Lol.
IndoorClayovic got bagelled in a Slam final thoughIndoorHCdal sucks, something to factor in for this debate
Going by your logic Rafa should get awarded more US open than Fed since his strike rate is better than Fed. Anyone your stupidity doesn't end here.
1st he has less Madrid titles ( % doesn't award you any extra titles)
2- you are suggesting Bo3 clay result will translate in to bo5 result for Rafa while in realit Rafa has won less than 10 matches on clay in bo5 so don't come up with absurd logic.
May be in Serbian universe 2Clay slams ( that too against non prime Fedal is greater than 6 slams with many coming against prime Fedovic)
Always. It’s a 24/7/365 jobI see, the excuse brigade is in full swing, even in this thread...
Novak also has a losing h2h v Thiem and Wawrinka at RG... even 1-1 v Fed at RG, Nadal has 3-1 v Fed.
It's not a strike against Nadal to have a better h2h on hc v Federer than Novak v Fed on clay lol.
Always. It’s a 24/7/365 job
Played one indoor clay tournament in his career and made the finalIndoorClayovic got bagelled in a Slam final though
He doesn't have a losing record to either on clay though and the sample size is rather small to bring up the head to head with Wawrinka at RG. They only played one match.
He doesn't though, at least not overall.
Federer would still lag behind Nadal in BO5. Sure make the case vs Novak thoughWhat if Federer was better in these “2nd clay Slam” low bouncing/faster clay conditions (Hamburg/Madrid) than either Djokovic or Nadal?
Played one indoor clay tournament in his career and made the final
Nadal has had a go at WTF too many times and still didn't win it
Wilander is 5th and djokovic is 6th in my opinionWhat's your list? Nadal, Borg, Lendl, Kuerten, Djokovic in some order...or Wilander instead of Kuerten? Can't be no less than 6 though. I say top 5 myself.
Hardcourt - Djokovic, Federer, Sampras, Agassi, Nadal - this is the order for most hardcourt Slams but Nadal wouldn't be in your top 5?
Yea based on this, he does. With another clay Slam with faster conditions than RG and he may have done more damage than in Paris.
In HCs you have many competitors..Wawrinka,Delpo,Murray,Nadal > on bo5
Novak > on bo3
It’s close though. Fedovic fans tell me clay competition is weak in this era and hard is strong, wonder how that factors in
Let it go man.Less dependent on opponent level.
Having the highest peak and consistency both is superior of course, that's why Fed is the OE best.
And Borg won like 40% of the Slams he entered, guess he's way better than Nadal, then.ok Nadal has won 21/63 slams while Novak has won 20/66 so Nadal is better. Case closed, own it and move on bud.
Djokovic needs one more RG to be at best equal IMHO.We know Nadal is greater, because he has 6 Slams and Djokovic has 2, while there are 2 Slams on hard and 1 on clay. However, who is really the better player on the surfaces in question?
Nadal
Win percentage - 78.4%
Grand Slam - 84.3%
Masters - 77.5%
vs top 10 - 50.3%
vs top 5 - 40.3%
Finals - 48.1%
Titles won percentage - 25/160 - 15.6%
Djokovic
Win percentage - 80.4%
Grand Slam - 84.4%
Masters - 80.1%
vs top 10 - 58.5%
vs top 5 - 50.0%
Finals - 56.3%
Titles won percentage - 18/76 - 23.7%
Just circling back to the Nadal - Connors hardcourt thing..... Jimmy Connors might be the unluckiest ATG of them all when it comes to circumstantial timing.
I can't help but wonder if Connors may have ended up with EIGHT US Opens if it had always been a hardcourt major during his career.
NadalWho played better Djokovic RG 16 or Nadal USO 13?
To the guys that gave Nadal a vote in the poll after seeing all this percentages - Winning less makes you greater?We know Nadal is greater, because he has 6 Slams and Djokovic has 2, while there are 2 Slams on hard and 1 on clay. However, who is really the better player on the surfaces in question?
Nadal
Win percentage - 78.4%
Grand Slam - 84.3%
Masters - 77.5%
vs top 10 - 50.3%
vs top 5 - 40.3%
Finals - 48.1%
Titles won percentage - 25/160 - 15.6%
Djokovic
Win percentage - 80.4%
Grand Slam - 84.4%
Masters - 80.1%
vs top 10 - 58.5%
vs top 5 - 50.0%
Finals - 56.3%
Titles won percentage - 18/76 - 23.7%
To the guys that gave Nadal a vote in the poll after seeing all this percentages - Winning less makes you greater?
This thread ain't about the GS tournaments results comparison, but overall surface comparison. They did play other tournaments.Winning less? How do their slam counts look? Lol
To the guys that gave Nadal a vote in the poll after seeing all this percentages - Winning less makes you greater?
Why is Djokovic so close the poll. The Wim thread was enough and now we have this.
Personally, I think it's fine to argue for Nadal here but give a real valid reason why. Even if we limit it to Slams, look how they matched up against top players.
Nadal
Top 10 | 16-16
Top 5 | 8-8
Djokovic
Top 10 | 13-12
Top 5 | 7-9
They played the same number of matches against the top 5 although it's 1 Slam on clay versus 2 on hard. So I think it's close either way but Slam count doesn't determine who should be better because it's not a 1:1 comparison.
Thats true. Nadal's peak on hards was wayyyy better than Nole's on clay