Djokovic 2018-2023 vs Federer 2004-2009
- Thread starter Kralingen
- Start date
mike danny
Bionic Poster
But I thought age doesn't matter.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
But times have changed and they have changed big time. Djokovic and Nadal no longer have that argument.
RS
Bionic Poster
You posted the video I think
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I don't think it's that age doesn't matter. Just less than you believe it does. Lol.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
They kind of still do when they won half of their Slams during that era.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, easy to speak from your position since there is nobody to expose Djokovic's age.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, Djokovic won only 7 slams in that era. I don't remember anyone grouping 2015 and 2016 in the strong era.
And that's also assuming that EVERY slam won in 2004-2007 was weak which couldn't be further from the truth so that amounts to at least half of Fed's slams not being bad.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Well you can group them however you want, but he won all those Slams when Federer, Murray and Wawrinka were top 5 and contending for Slams. Only Nadal was out of form duuring that time.
No one said this. I'm just pointing out what the coaches and former players thought about his era.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yeah, after 100 years and 11-12 slams won.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic didn't slow down like everyone else in their 30s. News at 11.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
And with the exception of Wawrinka neither were playing prime tennis.
Might as well say Fed won the majority of his slams when Agassi, Nadal and Djokovic were top players and contending for slams.
Well, they had their own opinion, but I'm sure they didn't actually take their time to dissect the details because that's what you have to do to judge competition. Wimb 2013 and USO 2013, for example, weren't tougher slam wins than many of Fed's in 2004-2007.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Sure, neither did Federer and Nadal that much. But Djokovic in his 30's is certainly not 3 times the player 30's Fed was like the slam count suggests.
Razer
Legend
You are quite sure of what the renowned coaches and former players did/did not do better than you.
Why don't you coach top 10 players or turn pro yourself ? You sound like an expert
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Murray wasn't playing prime tennis? He had the best year of his career in 2016.
Why would we when we know he didn't? Djokovic wasn't even playing Slams in 2003 and 2004.
I don't think they needed to since it was a clear assertion for them.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Well they did not play at the level he has in his 30s so far. Neither moved how he does just for starters. Twice the player?
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RS
Bionic Poster
Lol you were loading this up.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Federer, of course.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
We all see what we want to see...lol
WeekendTennisHack
Hall of Fame
You'd have to be a buffoon to not realize what he's saying. Notice how he's carefully choosing his words and avoiding direct comments.
Alcaraz is in perfect position.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Correct. Smacking Roddick and Baghdatis (Roghdatis) around left and right before even entering his prime wasn't really the toughest route to title accumulation in the Open Era, nor was it particularly good for Roger in the long run as he was a bit spoiled by the Roghdatis years and took some time to adjust when a couple ATGs expected him to earn his keep at the table.
pedro94
Semi-Pro
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
There is zero evidence here that he's saying it's a weak era and he's saying the opposite. If anything, he's saying they're great players, especially Alcaraz. Of course we all know what he meant about Roger and Rafa because they are two of the greatest of all time and of course we know playing these players is not the same challenge. It still doesn't mean he thinks it's weak.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
You have to admit he looks a bit like a troll when in resting face. Not just here, but in many PR situations lol
WeekendTennisHack
Hall of Fame
LOL, is English your native language?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Is it yours?
Holmes
Hall of Fame
I think you need to listen to the interview again my friend. All he's saying is he had more consistency in his rivalries with Fedal than the current gang. It takes some applied thought to translate that into, "ergo, the current crop are weak, since I don't play any one of them as consistently as Fedal."
WeekendTennisHack
Hall of Fame
Buffoonery at its finest.
It would have killed me if I had never grown past 14 to be fair. Some of these posters from other camps clearly didn't it seems.
Raz goat
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I'd argue they did. Not consistently or on every surface, but they certainly didn't play any worse than Djokovic as a whole. It's just that Djokovic managed to win more slams with a weaker level due to weaker opponents.
About the same really. Djoker is only better on clay.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He was still significantly better in 2012-early 2013. His slam finals vs Djokovic in 2016 were underwhelming to put it mildly. Not a strong era stalwart.
But he was a top guy in 2007, a year Fed won 3 slams.
No, it wasn't, as Djokovic didn't play well in those finals and the draws were weak for the winners. Classic case of name over form that even the experts are not above.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
Of course, Federer’s 2004-2009 peak was higher than Djokovic’s 2018-2023 peak. Federer was in his mid-20s and Djokovic is in his mid-30s. If that comparison is even in doubt, that would be very sad for Federer. On the other hand, Djokovic’s 2011-2016 peak is arguably higher than Federer’s 2004-2009 peak. Both ATP points and more especially Elo, which takes into account level of competition, bear this out. In any case, all three 6-year periods are astounding numbers and achievements. The point that almost everyone here seems to be missing is that Djokovic didn’t have one of these stretches of greatness. He had TWO.
The cause of the differences in the numbers are clear. Djokovic’s 2018-2023 stats are from an older player who played a smaller schedule and saved himself for slams and had a weaker field (just not as weak as his detractors claim nor as strong as his supporters claim). This period was also significantly disrupted by a pandemic and a freak default that likely cost Djokovic between 2 to 4 additional slams. Federer’s 2004-2009 seasons have slightly better numbers than Djokovic’s 2011-2016, and that’s explained by Federer only really having Nadal, baby Novak, and baby Murray as heavy competition during that period while Djokovic had Nadal, Federer himself, peak Murray, and peak Wawrinka in 2011-2016. Despite having 1 more slam in 2018-2023 than in 2011-2016, Djokovic clearly achieved more in 2011-2016 due to being better everywhere else but slams. Like Federer’s 2004-2009, Djokovic’s 2018-2023 only really had Nadal, Medvedev, and recently Alcaraz as heavy competition.
What people are missing about 2018-2023 is that while the competition is easier, Djokovic is older, so for him to be getting 12 slams in his 30s is still a massive achievement. Again though, Djokovic hasn’t declined as much as his detractors say but has declined more than his supporters admit.
I’m going to write something that Federer fans should love. If 2004-2009 Federer switched places with 2011-2016 Djokovic, meaning Federer was 22 in 2011, he would have performed about as well as Djokovic and achieved about the same numbers, not just from 2011-2016 but from 2011-2023. The reason for this is that there is just not a huge difference between their levels as much as one side or the other may want to believe. The only qualification I would make is that Federer always had more trouble with Nadal than Djokovic and that would likely still be the case. Sure, Federer may take advantage of Nadal’s dip during 2015-2016 and own Nadal on hard courts thereafter, but he’ll still likely never beat Nadal at RG. Matchups matter. And as great as 36-year old Federer was in 2017/2018, he still wasn’t quite as great as 36-year old Djokovic was this year (45 wins to 5 losses, 27-1 at slams).
The cause of the differences in the numbers are clear. Djokovic’s 2018-2023 stats are from an older player who played a smaller schedule and saved himself for slams and had a weaker field (just not as weak as his detractors claim nor as strong as his supporters claim). This period was also significantly disrupted by a pandemic and a freak default that likely cost Djokovic between 2 to 4 additional slams. Federer’s 2004-2009 seasons have slightly better numbers than Djokovic’s 2011-2016, and that’s explained by Federer only really having Nadal, baby Novak, and baby Murray as heavy competition during that period while Djokovic had Nadal, Federer himself, peak Murray, and peak Wawrinka in 2011-2016. Despite having 1 more slam in 2018-2023 than in 2011-2016, Djokovic clearly achieved more in 2011-2016 due to being better everywhere else but slams. Like Federer’s 2004-2009, Djokovic’s 2018-2023 only really had Nadal, Medvedev, and recently Alcaraz as heavy competition.
What people are missing about 2018-2023 is that while the competition is easier, Djokovic is older, so for him to be getting 12 slams in his 30s is still a massive achievement. Again though, Djokovic hasn’t declined as much as his detractors say but has declined more than his supporters admit.
I’m going to write something that Federer fans should love. If 2004-2009 Federer switched places with 2011-2016 Djokovic, meaning Federer was 22 in 2011, he would have performed about as well as Djokovic and achieved about the same numbers, not just from 2011-2016 but from 2011-2023. The reason for this is that there is just not a huge difference between their levels as much as one side or the other may want to believe. The only qualification I would make is that Federer always had more trouble with Nadal than Djokovic and that would likely still be the case. Sure, Federer may take advantage of Nadal’s dip during 2015-2016 and own Nadal on hard courts thereafter, but he’ll still likely never beat Nadal at RG. Matchups matter. And as great as 36-year old Federer was in 2017/2018, he still wasn’t quite as great as 36-year old Djokovic was this year (45 wins to 5 losses, 27-1 at slams).
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer and Djokovic level wise are the same. Nole took better care of his body and will now remain as the sole GOAT.
Both are better level wise than Nadal.
Both are better level wise than Nadal.
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
Has to Federer for me but Djokovic's numbers are extremely impressive as well. I subjectively think Fed had the tougher competition too.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Easy to assume true, but could just have lucked out. He was pretty buggered for 18 months that time after all. Could have been more terminal.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
We can compare this wrist issue with Federer's knee. But Djokovic doesn't have career long issue like Federer's back issues. Federer lost to pretty routine players from 2012 onwards because he was not fit all through the year. Particularly at USO it was more of an issue.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
True, but what forms the origin of that? I don't have enough data to conclude Fed's back stayed an issue because he didn't do pilates and chugged too much Moet & Chandon.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Less discipline.
Mazz Retic
Hall of Fame
Add one more YEC + YE#1
For Djokovic, '18-23 wasn't his strongest; '11-16 was.
His '11-16 compared favorably with Federer's '04-09. Djokovic had a dip within that time period, but recovered nicely in '15. He beat top-form Federer twice at WB in '14-15. And in '11, he took down the undisputed champion, Nadal, 7-0 in finals. In '11-16, Djokovic must've denied Federer and Nadal four great slam chances each.
By '09, Nadal hadn't attained his top form yet, and yet drove Federer crazy.
His '11-16 compared favorably with Federer's '04-09. Djokovic had a dip within that time period, but recovered nicely in '15. He beat top-form Federer twice at WB in '14-15. And in '11, he took down the undisputed champion, Nadal, 7-0 in finals. In '11-16, Djokovic must've denied Federer and Nadal four great slam chances each.
By '09, Nadal hadn't attained his top form yet, and yet drove Federer crazy.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
But this is about those specific periods, not whole careers.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Hewitt wasn't declined. Baghdatis, Blake or Baghdatis weren't really among the best players of the era. Haas, Coria or Ferrero were better.
I suppose he included it in the slams missed due to COVID.
