Serena's ommision from female GOAT discussions in part due to racism?

When people talk about the greatest female tennis player of all time they mention Navratilova or Graf mostly. On occasion you hear the names Evert, Court, Wills, Lenglen, and Connolly brought up. And for those whiny "what if" babies only Seles on occasion. While many acknowledge Serena as a top 10 player all time nobody discusses her as even a candidate for the greatest female tennis player ever. To me this is simply ridiculous. I dont expect everyone to agree she is the greatest ever, but she should atleast be in the discussion and considered for that title. It is clear to me racism has alot to do with her constant ommision from the greatest female player ever discussions.

Navratilova or Graf the greatest ever? Navratilova won half her slams at one slam, and Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

If you cant dominate your current field you shouldnt be compared to the legends of the game. Serena has only finished #1 one time in her career. Goats dominate number 1 for many years in womens tennis.

Hey Kenny, I know I said your thread was the worst this year. I was wrong

cuddles, before the hooded types off-road their way into this thread, you should know that the Serena=GOAT conversation takes may turns depending on the person talking; some think she's easily on the GOAT list, while others do not, so there is no sweeping rejection of her likely status.

But let's be honest: racial hatred has followed the Williams (independent of Richard's behavior or comments) since they emerged on the pro circuit (you will soon read some of the racially based comments in this thread), however, there are others who simply judged SW for her abilities, competition and effects on the overall sport.

In any case, more than anyone since Graf's generation, no one is more deserving of being in the GOAT discussions and HoF entry than Serena.

Nothing to do with race.

Is Safina ridiculed because she's white?

I don't think so.

Is Jankovic ridiculed because she's a horse?

Perhaps.

I wouldn't call Serena a GOAT because she hits every shot off balance and the ground shakes when she walks.


In addition, she considers tennis balls an appropriate food source, even offering to shove them down people's throats.

I think they are probably the greatest part time champions ever. I mean that in the good sense. Anyone that can go on a pro tour year after year win what at least 1 slam a year or something like that. While doing that they open up businesses completely removed from tennis (clothing line, interior design, jewelry line, acting in major sit-coms etc) in their 20's?? NO ONE else has done that. And for all of those reasons I think they stand out as unique. Thats a lot of grace.

Now if I was gonna put money on them to win a 250 tourney, I wouldn't. And I don't blame them for that either.

Yes, that.... and also the fact that she's miles away from being the GOAT.

Serena only shows up for slams, well 3 of them. She doesn't have the endurance to dominate the tour throughout an entire year. Look at this decade.

Years ended as #1:
Davenport 3
Henin 3
Serena 2

She flat out doesn't care for non-slam events (excluding Miami) and even if she did she often doesn't have the endurance of playing 4-5 days in a row. She's been injury-prone on-and-off the past 6 years while her fitness has been an issue as well.

That said, she's one of the best ever. But not anywhere near the Evert/Graf/Navratilova/Court level. Serena's talent arguably dwarfs those GOAT contenders, but her attitude/fitness/motivation knocks her down.

Cantankersore said:

Depicting black people as animals is a common form of racism. When people attempt to insult Federer, they don't do it by referring to him as an animal. Anyway, I think she is obviously a great tennis player, but her commitment to the game will be a bit problematic to her legacy. All of that GOAT stuff is nonsense though. If you like her game, enjoy watching it while she still plays. If not, don't watch her.

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BS

people use animal depictions on other players who are not black

Like Nadal; People say he is a topspin monkey or runs around like a rabbit, also he's sometimes called a bull! Jankovic is a horse, for example.

Racism has nothing to do with hating on Serena Williams. Notice that she is hated on MUCH more than Venus? Yeah, but they're both black. Right?

It's not a race issue, it's a personality issue, mostly. Well, atleast on TW I think it is. Can't speak for the common casual tennis fans.

Obviously there are people with prejudices who will cheer against certain people regardless of the person's personality or likeability.

Serena has a low level of likeability.

cuddles26 said:

It is clear to me racism has alot to do with her constant ommision from the greatest female player ever discussions.

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On what basis did you come up with this opinion?

Navatilova won 59 GS titles total (18 singles), Serena has won 23 (11 singles). Certainly race MUST be the deciding factor!

People like you are whats wrong with the civil rights movement.

And if your American, you have no choice but to watch her since they broadcast all her matches regardless of whoever else is playing.

Back on topic.
I'm fed up with this racism stuff. We are so politically correct anymore that even mentioning race can get you labeled as a racist. Serena is not considered a GOAT because she doesn't have the record to back it up. You can argue hypotheticals all you want, but you either have the record, or don't. She doesn't. No GOAT for her.

Grampy said:

And if your American, you have no choice but to watch her since they show all her matches regardless of whoever else is playing.

Back on topic.
I'm fed up with this racism stuff. We are so politically correct anymore that even mentioning race can get you labeled as a racist. Serena is not considered a GOAT because she doesn't have the record to back it up. You can argue hypotheticals all you want, but you either have the record, or don't. She doesn't. No GOAT for her.

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I'm tired of 90% or more of accusations of racism being completely meritless. Absolutely no shred of evidence whatsoever to back up the claim...

If everyone was so racist against the Williams', then why do they take up all the TV coverage and always play on the stadium courts???

Looks like GJ011 has branched off and spread. We now have a Serena version.

soyizgood said:

Serena only shows up for slams, well 3 of them. She doesn't have the endurance to dominate the tour throughout an entire year. Look at this decade.

Years ended as #1:
Davenport 3
Henin 3
Serena 2

She flat out doesn't care for non-slam events (excluding Miami) and even if she did she often doesn't have the endurance of playing 4-5 days in a row. She's been injury-prone on-and-off the past 6 years while her fitness has been an issue as well.

That said, she's one of the best ever. But not anywhere near the Evert/Graf/Navratilova/Court level. Serena's talent arguably dwarfs those GOAT contenders, but her attitude/fitness/motivation knocks her down.

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Good for Serena the WTA has few tourneys set up like the ATP 1000. If the WTA did it would be easy to see who has the juice.

cuddles26 said:

When people talk about the greatest female tennis player of all time they mention Navratilova or Graf mostly. On occasion you hear the names Evert, Court, Wills, Lenglen, and Connolly brought up. And for those whiny "what if" babies only Seles on occasion. While many acknowledge Serena as a top 10 player all time nobody discusses her as even a candidate for the greatest female tennis player ever. To me this is simply ridiculous. I dont expect everyone to agree she is the greatest ever, but she should atleast be in the discussion and considered for that title. It is clear to me racism has alot to do with her constant ommision from the greatest female player ever discussions.

Navratilova or Graf the greatest ever? Navratilova won half her slams at one slam, and Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

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I've thought about this; and think you're wrong. Serena is just too inconsistent to be a GOAT contender. If she had made a career decision to focus solely on tennis, I think her consistency would be much much better and she would be mentioned with Graff and Navratilova and Court. because one of these three is the GOAT, no question about it.
Some people DO dislike Serena because of racisim. It's definitely there. But I really do not think that that is why she is left out of these discussions.

@ the OP:

Umm....no.

and sharapova's "ommision" from female GOAT discussions is due to reverse-racism.. or is it?

cuddles26 said:

Navratilova or Graf the greatest ever? Navratilova won half her slams at one slam, and Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

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And serena won more than half (6 to be precise) of her grandslams against her sister -- may the results were all "fixed" ?

Blinkism said:

BS

people use animal depictions on other players who are not black

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Please study history. Whether in Europe, Japan, Mexico, or the United States (as well as other lands) the ape/monkey slur in writing or illustration has been used extensively against black people for centuries, where few other groups ever found themselves targeted by this specific animal group. How can you not know this?

Racism has nothing to do with hating on Serena Williams. Notice that she is hated on MUCH more than Venus? Yeah, but they're both black. Right?

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...yet the "monkey," "baboon," "gorilla," or "ape" slurs have been used against SW (and oft-times her sister) for years by the likes of some of the creatures posting on this board. Mere coincidence? Hm?

Serena has a low level of likeability.

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That USO finals ratings chart for the past 10 years proves you wrong. Fans are watching her for a reason, hence the reaon any final with her (or her sister) easily topped the non-WS-participating ratings for other players (including some of the men's finals as well).

As if on time, other seem to recognize SW's as someone other than the pariah certain people would wish her to be...

http://www.glamour.com/women-of-the-year/2009/serena-williams

cuddles26 said:

...
Navratilova or Graf the greatest ever? Navratilova won half her slams at one slam, and Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

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Serena won all of her slams when no other all-time great was playing (Graf retired in August 1999).

In her best season ever (2003) Serena had a winning percentage of 92.68. Graf had six and Navrativa five seasons with a winning percentage of 93 of better.

Serena had 11 losses to non-top-30 players after her 16th birthday.
Graf only 2.

Serena has won each slam at least once.
Graf has won each slam at least four times.

Graf has a higher winning percentage than Serena on each surface - clay, grass, HC and indoor carpet.

Navratilova has 167 singles titles, Graf 107 and Serena 35.

longst said:

I think they are probably the greatest part time champions ever. I mean that in the good sense. Anyone that can go on a pro tour year after year win what at least 1 slam a year or something like that. While doing that they open up businesses completely removed from tennis (clothing line, interior design, jewelry line, acting in major sit-coms etc) in their 20's?? ...

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Yes, this jewelry designing is a really time-absorbing job ...
:lol::lol::lol:

Joe Pike said:

Serena won all of her slams when no other all-time great was playing (Graf retired in August 1999).

In her best season ever (2003) Serena had a winning percentage of 92.68. Graf had six and Navrativa five seasons with a winning percentage of 93 of better.

Serena had 11 losses to non-top-30 players after her 16th birthday.
Graf only 2.

Serena has won each slam at least once.
Graf has won each slam at least four times.

Graf has a higher winning percentage than Serena on each surface - clay, grass, HC and indoor carpet.

Navratilova has 167 singles titles, Graf 107 and Serena 35.

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What he said!!!

She's definitely the GOAT if you consider her effort/reward ratio.

JeMar said:

She's definitely the GOAT if you consider her effort/reward ratio.

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By this metric, Safin should be high on the GOAT list

Blinkism said:

By this metric, Safin should be high on the GOAT list

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Yeah, he'd definitely be up there, but I really think Serena takes the cake. And the cookies. And the ice cream.

At least Safin shows up to matches in shape. Serena has often shown up to tournaments looking like she spent the previous week in an R.V. camped outside of Golden Corral.

The reason Serena is not in the discussion as the GOAT with Court, Graf, Evert, Nav, and if you want to stretch it out Moody and Lenglen is because she has not dominated the game with the longevity with which they did. And no dominating 4 tournaments a year (the slams) does not count. Serena has a good chance of ending her career with not even 50 singles titles overall, and yet you want to even try to argue she deserves to be discussed equally with people like Martina and Chris both of whom have at least 150 singles titles? Sorry that does not compute. Graf won at least 4 of every major and a slew of other titles, Court has won 2 calender slams and a ton of non slam titles otherwise.

Nothing Serena has achieved in her career has come anything close to those achievements. Sorry, but thats the way it is, she could have, but she didn't. It seems to me that you are just bringing this out because none of your other arguments regarding Serena in the other threads you have started convinced anyone so you just think this will convince people or either scare people into keeping quiet so you can claim a victory. Yes, Serena has been treated unfairly because of her race, based on some posts on this board in the past and things I have heard people say about her yes, that is something that has impacted her. But to generalize that to say its a qualifying factor against her being the GOAT is a step that you are taking, very dangerously, and considering Serena doesn't have the achievements to be put up there with them anyway, makes little sense.

LDVTennis said:

What he said!!!

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According to the OP, having dark skin is worth AT LEAST 100 singles titles!

Damn, I'm going to sound like a glory hunting ******* BUT

22 is TWICE 11


Yeah. :shock:

Serena is nothing compared with the great Graf Nothing....

Yes and no. I do not believe she has yet achieved enough for even serious consideration for GOAT status, she has to add to her already extraordinary achievements for that. I do believe tennis and game wise she already might be the greatest ever, and started another thread about that, but still her already great career needs to be futher bolstered to be in any kind of consideration for that actual title.

That said there is some obvious racial bias against Serena Williams all the same IMHO. While people are within their rights to not like her or things about her personality, playing style, whatever, the over the top hatred she seems to garner from many corners, and many of the references made towards her and even her sister seem to stray towards racial implications.

As Blinkism in the post above has touched on, as well some other posters, I do think that it's more personality and inconsistent/inferior tennis VERY frequently, including the Majors that hurts Serena Williams in this analysis. Just think how she would be judged differently if she carried herself like so many other great players, like Laver, Borg, Sampras, Evert, Blake, etc, etc...She REALLY hurts her reputation by being quite difficult in many respects. She rarely IF EVER credits her opponent, if it's not Venus on the other side.

Now, just imagine if she was the female version of Arthur Ashe, or even much more like Venus!

Yet, I think unquestionably, she has faced SOME if not A LOT of racism both growing up and as a pro. I'm sure she has faced NUMEROUS occasions, in the U.S. and elsewhere, where people have tried to use race against her, often very subtly, and at times, not so subtly.

Arthur Ashe and Althea Gibson, both of whom faced far WORSE racism than she has overall were wonderful role models for her, but she has not followed their stellar examples of how best to deal with the racism she has encountered. That's not easy to pull off though. It requires incredible strength of character, poise, and grace.

Let's face it, tennis STILL in many circles, ALL OVER THE WORLD, tends to still be a primarily white and affluent game, often played at high levels in "country club" environments, which do PURPOSEFULLY exclude Black players to this very day. Just go around the U.S. and the World and you'll find PLENTY of private clubs that STILL do not admit black members, and other "minority" members. That has to have an impact on those that grow up within such environments and people tend to carry around certain prejudices because of it. I think that's very sad but true. I do think things are changing though at a fairly rapid rate, thankfully.

my gut says if i need someone to play for my life; give me an angry/hungry serena over anyone else.

cuddles26 said:

Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

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it would still be better than Serena... so yes... i see why you imagine it's racism why people dont compare her to Graf!

not again, stop this racial BS
she will never be anywhere close to GOAT

Gorecki said:

it would still be better than Serena... so yes... i see why you imagine it's racism why people dont compare her to Graf!

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Actually before the horrific Seles stabbing Graf had 11 slams, same as Serena now. So no you dont know if Graf would still have more, let alone if she would have been able to get more than Serena might end up with.

THUNDERVOLLEY said:

cuddles, before the hooded types off-road their way into this thread, you should know that the Serena=GOAT conversation takes may turns depending on the person talking; some think she's easily on the GOAT list, while others do not, so there is no sweeping rejection of her likely status.

But let's be honest: racial hatred has followed the Williams (independent of Richard's behavior or comments) since they emerged on the pro circuit (you will soon read some of the racially based comments in this thread), however, there are others who simply judged SW for her abilities, competition and effects on the overall sport.

In any case, more than anyone since Graf's generation, no one is more deserving of being in the GOAT discussions and HoF entry than Serena.

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Thanks for your refreshing and well thought out comments. You are right that for me to generalize completely isnt entirely fair. There are some that do give Serena her due and recognize she is possibly in the discussions with the very greatest women players in history (as she should be). Those who have reasonable and objective arguments who dont feel that way are welcomed, but it is a shame that there are many who take off their hoods and expose a certain racial hatred whenever Serena's name comes up as you said. Definitely since the retirement of Graf, Serena is the one who has shown herself to be next in line in the chain of the very greatest players in history.

cuddles26 said:

Actually before the horrific Seles stabbing Graf had 11 slams, same as Serena now. So no you dont know if Graf would still have more, let alone if she would have been able to get more than Serena might end up with.

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if you think Seles was going to upset Graf at Wimbledon stabbing or not, i have a nice Beach house in Mars i could sell you for 20000$

Serena Williams is the greatest female player in history. Yes even greater than Graf, Navratilova, and Evert. Deal with it losers.

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my oh my... isnt that a bit racist...

Gorecki said:

if you think Seles was going to upset Graf at Wimbledon stabbing or not, i have a nice Beach house in Mars i could sell you for 20000$

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What Seles might or might not have achieved in her own career we will never know. It is obviously sad a player who had GOAT potential as she did was robbed of that chance by an obsessed criminal, yet at the same time I agree one cant ever be certain. I even mentioned earlier in this thread those "what if" Seles worshippers who try to argue her as the female GOAT based on a what if dont have much to back up their claims. However on the other hand while what Seles might have lost she can never get back, ALL of Graf's accomplishments post stabbing should be properly devalued due to this incident as Seles's extreme dominance of the womens game and success vs Graf leading up to the stabbing is too severe to not taint Graf's post stabbing achievements. Sadly the Seles stabbing ultimately diminishes both Seles and Graf. We will never know what Seles might have achieved, nor do we know how real half of what Graf achieved is either. Both are of course great players and ambassodors for the game, but ultimately neither IMO is a fitting choice for the female GOAT title for the reasons I just stated.

Now as for Seles never beating Graf at Wimbledon here is some food for thought:

-Seles at only 16 lost to the same player Graf lost to at Wimbledon- Zina Garrison. However Seles's loss to Garrison was closer than Graf's, giving indication Graf might have even lost to Seles in the semis that year.

-Seles had to miss Wimbledon at age 17.

-Seles at 18 reached the Wimbledon final, at the same age Graf did. Whereas Graf at 18 was spanked by an aging 30-something Navratilova, Seles beat her in the semis.

Yes Graf did very easily beat Seles in her first Wimbledon final. However while Seles was unlikely to beat an on fire Graf in that match regardless the grunting controversy, there is little doubt it impacted her performance and made the match more one sided than it would have been. When it comes to the future it is silly to think an 18 year old girl would not improve alot on grass in the future. Look at how much Graf improved on grass from her first Wimbledon final at 18 where an aging Navratilova bullied her around the court. Why would one not assume Seles to make drastic improvements on grass past the age of 18 as well. Furthermore Graf does not play as well in every Wimbledon final as she did in the 92 final vs Seles. In fact she played more perfectly in that final than nearly all her Wimbledon finals.

Graf in the 93 Wimbledon final won only 2 out of 12 games in the last 2 sets vs Novotna before Jana's embarassing choke. Graf lost at Wimbledon 94 to Lori McNeil. Graf in the 95 Wimbledon barely beat clay court specialist Sanchez Vicario in the final, 7-5 in the 3rd set. Yet she was a lock to keep beating a maturing Seles there somehow? Nice fanatical viewpoint but doesnt make it more truthful.

Even if Graf did win another 1 or 2 Wimbledons it is quite possible that is all she would have won. The younger Seles had won every French, Australian, and U.S Open the 3 years before the stabbing, minus the 90 U.S Open which Graf still didnt win. Graf's last non Wimbledon prior to the stabbing was the 1990 Australian Open. Seles was over 4 years younger and had more improvement ahead than Graf, yet Graf was already reduced to only having chances to win Wimbledon. Dont kid yourself to believing Graf's grossly inflated slam tally and consensus GOAT status amongst many was not greatly aided by the criminal act of a lunatic fan of hers.

Speaking of Graf here is something interesting to peak at, particularly in a thread about Serena:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE6a...2669164A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA8A7yE74Qk&feature=PlayList&p=A0EE23CA2669164A&index=28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ezBuQs4a3A&feature=PlayList&p=A0EE23CA2669164A&index=29
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YTz4kZ7fz8&feature=PlayList&p=A0EE23CA2669164A&index=35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFDHvi7moVs&feature=related

While it was a very close win for Serena, Graf often looked like a rag doll vs all of Serena's power. She was completely forced on the defensive and needing help from a horde of Serena's errors to even hang close. The match was out of her hands, it was pretty much all up to Serena. If some of you Graf fanatics peak at those clips I posted you will see exactly what I mean, for those who dont remember this match well. Granted while this was not prime Graf, it was not prime Serena either, and Graf was certainly closer to her prime than Serena was hers.

Graf's timing was perfect. She came into her prime just around the same point Navratilova and Evert were aging out of theirs. Then in the middle of her career Seles came and Gunther conveniently removed her. Then she piled up a bunch more slams before going down with age and injuries just as players like Venus, Serena, Davenport, and Hingis emerged. She never truly faced great oppostion, her best opponents were people like Sanchez Vicario who probably is only a 1 slam winner without the Seles stabbing, and Pierce.

Navratilova likewise also had great timing. She came into her own and won nearly all her slams after Court and King were already retired, well in King's case playing at nearly 40 on butchered knees, and when Goolagong and Evert were already past her prime, and when Graf and Sabatini were pre pubescent teenagers not close to their primes yet.

Cuddles, why even debate this if you are going to ignore the facts. There are SIX women who have more slam singles titles than Serena. How in the hell does that make her the GOAT? Racism? Please! You are the biggest racist on this board.

raiden031 said:

Cuddles, why even debate this if you are going to ignore the facts. There are SIX women who have more slam singles titles than Serena. How in the hell does that make her the GOAT? Racism? Please! You are the biggest racist on this board.

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First of all I white, so how on earth would I be racist towards Serena. I just happen to give Serena her due and look past shallow things like the color of her skin which some are unable to do. I never said she had to be the undisputed GOAT. I just said it is unfair she is not even brought up in discussions about the female GOAT or given serious enough consideration for the title. As for the slams titles one needs to look at the forest around the trees. I already explained some but lets go through each:

Court (24 slams)- 11 of her 24 slams came at the then joke Australian Open which none of the top players apart from the Austrailans even played. Her slam count is quite obviously heavily inflated by this as she failed to win more than 5 slams at any of the 3 fully attended slam venues. Furthermore at the biggest event on her her best surface- grass, she won only 3 Wimbledons, not exactly a strong GOAT promotion.

Graf (22 slams)- as already mentioned she won 11 of those 22 after her biggest rival, who was dominating womens tennis completely winning 7 of the last 9 slams, and was 4 years younger than Graf, was taken out of the game by a criminal stabbing act.

Evert (18 slams)- as far as record goes she probably has the greatest claim to being the greatest ever. The thing that works against her though is her powerless and incomplete game, and the fact when still near her best she was so thoroughly dominated by Navratilova.

Navratilova (18 slams)- Well for starters even though Wimbledon is the greatest event in the World, that she won half of her 18 slams at Wimbledon is a mark against her versatility and worthiness to be the greatest ever if we are talking beyond just grass. It doesnt reflect well on her completeness to have managed only the same # of slams at 3 combined slams played on red clay, green clay/mostly fast hard courts, and slow grass/slow hard courts as just 1 slam played on fast grass. Relativel speaking her abilities to win across all surfaces look rather limited for someone who would be the greatest ever.

Lenglen and Wills Moody- Both great players but lets face it there was hardly any legitimate competition for them back then. The game was another universe from today, even for those who think the current field is weak.

Jean King- She has 12 slams but she isnt a serious greatest ever candidate. She was overshadowed by both Court early on and Evert later on in her career.

Seles and Connolly- less slams than Serena already anyway.

Not to mention the fact Serena's career is clearly not over and she likely has more slams to come.

cuddles26 said:

First of all I white, so how on earth would I be racist towards Serena. I just happen to give Serena her due and look past shallow things like the color of her skin which some are unable to do. I never said she had to be the undisputed GOAT. I just said it is unfair she is not even brought up in discussions about the female GOAT or given serious enough consideration for the title. As for the slams titles one needs to look at the forest around the trees. I already explained some but lets go through each:

Court (24 slams)- 11 of her 24 slams came at the then joke Australian Open which none of the top players apart from the Austrailans even played. Her slam count is quite obviously heavily inflated by this as she failed to win more than 5 slams at any of the 3 fully attended slam venues. Furthermore at the biggest event on her her best surface- grass, she won only 3 Wimbledons, not exactly a strong GOAT promotion.

Graf (22 slams)- as already mentioned she won 11 of those 22 after her biggest rival, who was dominating womens tennis completely winning 7 of the last 9 slams, and was 4 years younger than Graf, was taken out of the game by a criminal stabbing act.

Evert (18 slams)- as far as record goes she probably has the greatest claim to being the greatest ever. The thing that works against her though is her powerless and incomplete game, and the fact when still near her best she was so thoroughly dominated by Navratilova.

Navratilova (18 slams)- Well for starters even though Wimbledon is the greatest event in the World, that she won half of her 18 slams at Wimbledon is a mark against her versatility and worthiness to be the greatest ever if we are talking beyond just grass. It doesnt reflect well on her completeness to have managed only the same # of slams at 3 combined slams played on red clay, green clay/mostly fast hard courts, and slow grass/slow hard courts as just 1 slam played on fast grass. Relativel speaking her abilities to win across all surfaces look rather limited for someone who would be the greatest ever.

Lenglen and Wills Moody- Both great players but lets face it there was hardly any legitimate competition for them back then. The game was another universe from today, even for those who think the current field is weak.

Jean King- She has 12 slams but she isnt a serious greatest ever candidate. She was overshadowed by both Court early on and Evert later on in her career.

Seles and Connolly- less slams than Serena already anyway.

Not to mention the fact Serena's career is clearly not over and she likely has more slams to come.

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Let's see. You knock Court for only winning 3 Wimbledons, but what? Serena only has 3 herself. Oh and Serena has no more than 4 majors at any particular venue (oh yes, that oh-so prestigious AO) even when playing in such a weak era... hmmm

Evert's incomplete game? Evert actually won over 50% of the events she played in. A 90% winning record and oh she actually put full effort in all of her tournaments, unlike Serena. Evert won a major for 13 straight years. Serena didn't win any in 2004 (yet Russians won 3 of them) or 2006 (yet Mauresmo won 2 of them) which would normally be peak years for her.

Navratilova's fitness and endurance level puts Serena to shame. She actually made the most of her talents, could play a complete season year after year without breaking down, was going deep at majors even at 40.

I don't particularly like Serena, but I've given her praise along with criticism. You are a ********** struggling to find any real logic for your argument.

cuddles26 said:

First of all I white, so how on earth would I be racist towards Serena. I just happen to give Serena her due and look past shallow things like the color of her skin which some are unable to do. I never said she had to be the undisputed GOAT. I just said it is unfair she is not even brought up in discussions about the female GOAT or given serious enough consideration for the title. As for the slams titles one needs to look at the forest around the trees. I already explained some but lets go through each:

Court (24 slams)- 11 of her 24 slams came at the then joke Australian Open which none of the top players apart from the Austrailans even played. Her slam count is quite obviously heavily inflated by this as she failed to win more than 5 slams at any of the 3 fully attended slam venues. Furthermore at the biggest event on her her best surface- grass, she won only 3 Wimbledons, not exactly a strong GOAT promotion.

Graf (22 slams)- as already mentioned she won 11 of those 22 after her biggest rival, who was dominating womens tennis completely winning 7 of the last 9 slams, and was 4 years younger than Graf, was taken out of the game by a criminal stabbing act.

Evert (18 slams)- as far as record goes she probably has the greatest claim to being the greatest ever. The thing that works against her though is her powerless and incomplete game, and the fact when still near her best she was so thoroughly dominated by Navratilova.

Navratilova (18 slams)- Well for starters even though Wimbledon is the greatest event in the World, that she won half of her 18 slams at Wimbledon is a mark against her versatility and worthiness to be the greatest ever if we are talking beyond just grass. It doesnt reflect well on her completeness to have managed only the same # of slams at 3 combined slams played on red clay, green clay/mostly fast hard courts, and slow grass/slow hard courts as just 1 slam played on fast grass. Relativel speaking her abilities to win across all surfaces look rather limited for someone who would be the greatest ever.

Lenglen and Wills Moody- Both great players but lets face it there was hardly any legitimate competition for them back then. The game was another universe from today, even for those who think the current field is weak.

Jean King- She has 12 slams but she isnt a serious greatest ever candidate. She was overshadowed by both Court early on and Evert later on in her career.

Seles and Connolly- less slams than Serena already anyway.

Not to mention the fact Serena's career is clearly not over and she likely has more slams to come.

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by extension of your logic:

Serena: won more than 50% of her slams against her sibling.. fixed matches don't count

fed_rulz said:

Serena: won more than 50% of her slams against her sibling.. fixed matches don't count

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Provide verifiable evidence of these alleged "fixed" matches, otherwise, it is more biased BS.

THUNDERVOLLEY said:

Provide verifiable evidence of these alleged "fixed" matches, otherwise, it is more biased BS.

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more biased than:
- discounting all of graf's grandslams post-seles stabbing?
- dismissing martina because she won more than 50% of her slams at wimbledon?

i was just extending the OP's moronic logic to demonstrate how stupid it sounded..

we should be talking about racism only if (and when) serena wins 18+ slams, and she still then is not part of the GOAT discussion. Her accomplishments, as they stand today, are not GOAT-worthy. Until then all this "racism" talk is biased BS.

soyizgood said:

Let's see. You knock Court for only winning 3 Wimbledons, but what? Serena only has 3 herself.

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Court's career is over. Serena's is not. Hence the difference. Only the delusional think Serena will end up with only 3 Wimbledons. That said Court is greater than Serena for now, but I could see Serena being up with her eventually.

soyizgood said:

You knock Court for only winning 3 Wimbledons, but what? Serena only has 3 herself.

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Grass is Court's best surface. Hard courts is Serena's. Yet Serena has already matched the # of Wimbledon titles that Court won in her career with more to come.

Oh and Serena has no more than 4 majors at any particular venue (oh yes, that oh-so prestigious AO) even when playing in such a weak era... hmmm

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EVERYONE plays at the Australian Open these days, which wasnt the case at all when Court played, not even close. Serena has not always faced a weak field. The field from 1999-2005 when she won 8 of her current 11 slams was one of the strongest ever. With Henin and Clijsters back, and Maria getting healthy again, it will be hard for anyone to bring up the weak era argument anymore, and Serena will just infuriate the haters that much more if she keeps winning vs those 3 back on tour and as her main competition.

Evert's incomplete game? Evert actually won over 50% of the events she played in. A 90% winning record and oh she actually put full effort in all of her tournaments, unlike Serena. Evert won a major for 13 straight years. Serena didn't win any in 2004 (yet Russians won 3 of them) or 2006 (yet Mauresmo won 2 of them) which would normally be peak years for her.

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Learn to read properly. I acknowledged that it was hard to knock Evert's record or anything about the circumstances it was achieved under. I even stated as far as achievements go she probably has the best claim of anyone to being the greatest ever. What I being incomplete was her game. She had a nothing serve, not a good volley, a very weak overhead, she wasnt a phenomenal athlete, she did not hit with enormous power off the ground ever for her own time, and she didnt slice that well. She won with absolutely peerless precision and consistency from the baseline, as well as incredible mental strength. Her achievements cant really be questioned. However the actual quality of her overall game compared to other greats can be. That along with the fact that Navratilova completely dominated her when she was still near her best makes it hard to seriously argue her as the greatest player ever.

Navratilova's fitness and endurance level puts Serena to shame. She actually made the most of her talents, could play a complete season year after year without breaking down, was going deep at majors even at 40.

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Navratilova was not always the fitness queen. She wasted away most of her talent until she was age 25. She won only 2 slams before her 25th birthday despite flooring someone like Evert as far as overall talent and athletic ability. Of course Martina somehow gets a free pass for wasting the entire first half of her career and Serena gets all the slack for at times underachieving.

I don't particularly like Serena, but I've given her praise along with criticism. You are a ********** struggling to find any real logic for your argument.

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You are a Safinatard, and that puts everything to shame.

Seles would only consistently beat Graf at the AO and the FO (even then it would be fairly close matches). Graf would definitely beat her at Wimbledon and probably have a good shot at taking her out at the USO.



Even with no stabbing, it's not a given Seles beats Graf every time they meet in a slam.

'If I could, I'd take this phukin thread and shove it down your phukin throat'

Serena is racist towards Asian line Umps.