Serena's ommision from female GOAT discussions in part due to racism?
- Thread starter cuddles26
- Start date
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Unfortunately, for you, it doesn't work that way. **YOU** are the one alluding that Graf benefited from Seles' stabbing, and therefore her numbers are padded.
**I** stated she still had to win the slams she did after the stabbing. In any case, her numbers blow Serena's out of the stratotosphere.
you are correct>> there is a "double standard".
Standard # 1: Serena's numbers.
Standard # 2: Other players numbers.
Conclusion: other players records blow Serena's out of the stratotosphere.
And how does this apply to her numbers compared to the others?
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
nothing like fierce competitors like Kuznetsova, Schnyder, Jankovic, Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Bartoli, Myskina, Dementieva....
cuddles26
Banned
Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Dementieva, Safina, are all much better players than clowns like Martinez, Fernandez, Date, Huber, Coetzer, Maggie Maleeva, Rubin, Schultz McCarthy, Majoli, Spirlea, way past their primes Zvereva and Sukova, 14 and 15 year old diapered Hingis, and early U haul version of Davenport.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
so i gather that you think your opinions are facts... :-?
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
muahahahahahaha, lmaoa!!!
Seriously, why do you even post, when it is clear you don't even play tennis.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
oh.. Cudlles... btw... dismissing Rubin is a bit racist wouldn't you say?
That's pretty funny, because I'm pretty sure the term "ghetto" today is used as a term to refer to people who have a certain set of behavior / attitudes. Do they have to be black to be "ghetto"? No, they don't. Like I said, it can refer to hispanics, asians, whites, etc.
BTW, I do know where the term "ghetto" comes from. I know the history behind the word, and I know the history of how it came to North America. And in fact, the term "ghetto" has been associated with non-blacks (Jews, Irish immigrants, Italians, Poles, etc.) far longer than it has been associated with blacks in America.
But hey, you're the one who's stereotyping Black Americans with the term "ghetto." So who's being racist now? I'm the ignorant one? I'm not the one who solely associates an entire race to a word that you deem negative. Like I said, what Chad did was NOT racially motivated. It was based on the attitudes and behaviors displayed by Serena Williams. And that, is at worst, discrimination based on those attitudes and behaviors, and not her race.
The basis of your argument is that ghetto somehow only refers to black people. I dare you to go outside and tell that to a black person and see if they become offended. Ghetto does not only refer to black people; it can refer to any race. For someone who wants to be the Al Sharpton of Tennis-Warehouse, you sure do stereotype alot.
Last edited:
cuddles26
Banned
OK what are your opinions of the players I mentioned. Most of them were regular round of 16 loser in slams who couldnt score even a single win over Graf or Seles if their life depended on it. Do you really think those players are better than the second tier top players of today like the Serbian girls and the various Russian challengers apart from Sharapova.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
in fact, if anyone should feel insulted by the use of the word Ghetto, are the Jewish... as the word was carved to describe the Borghetto, the italian jewish boroughs.
cuddles26
Banned
No Rubin is a mediocre era filler full of them in the empty Graf post-stabbing era. That she is black or white is irrelevant to that fact, Huber and Majoli and youngest Maleeva and Coetzer are white, but they are basically the same non relevant nobody that the 93-96 era Graf won nearly half her slams against composed of. Pigeons for Graf to devour, little snacks she popped in the microwave and casually enjoyed for dinner with a smile. Just as whether Serena is black or white should be irrelevant to her immense greatness, other than maybe as in addition being a trailblazer for other black women in a predominantly white sport which is all the more impressive.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
no. to me they are pretty much the same level as tier 2 players back in the graf days. you are the one dismissing Grafs Competition. you are the one making judgments. you are the one resorting to generalizations...
so i see the logic in your arguments...
T
TheMagicianOfPrecision
Guest
No, Gorecki is right. Although i sense you are being sarcastic.
LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..............................
I'm pretty sure Althea Gibson was 10000000000000000000000000x more of a trailblazer than Serena Williams could ever hope to be. Or are you going to say her era was weak?
You don't know who Al Sharpton is, but in America, he is a black preacher who is constantly trying to bring up racism in situations that.... well.... basically he's doing "reverse racism" half the time, attempting to make any crime or action against blacks appear to be racially motivated when it really wasn't.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
so it's all about serena. Right? she started it all... all the great Black tennis champions from the past, like Ashe and Noah, Garrison and Mcneil are fireworks to entertain the racist tennis world... :-?
what can i say...
so it's all about serena. Right? she started it all... all the great Black tennis champions from the past, like Ashe and Noah, Garrison and Mcneil are fireworks to entertain the racist tennis world... :-?
what can i say...
They don't count. Their era was weak remember.
T
TheMagicianOfPrecision
Guest
Yes I do, a reverant who held a great speech at MJ:s tribute in Staples Center.
Ghettos were present at lots of places before it was even recognized in USA.
USA has no history compared to some places in Europe and the Middle east etc
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
No Sweat Tmop. he was being sarcastic...
90% if the time Nam and me are in agreement.
.dropshot winner
Hall of Fame
True, I was just talking about that with my brother yesterday.
Some pavements I use daily in Zurich are older than every (non-Indian) historic object in the states. Kind of funny when you think about it.
T
TheMagicianOfPrecision
Guest
Absolutely. I can imagine
USA is a very young nation where things have happened really fast in a short period of time.
dropshot winner
Hall of Fame
Absolutely. I can imagine
USA is a very young nation where things have happened really fast in a short period of time.
There's nothing wrong with beeing a young nation, but when I hear some americans talk (mostly politicians) you almost get the feeling that they think that the states are as old as the Roman Republic, when in fact it was mostly Buffalos at a time when other nations already had a national identidy.
T
TheMagicianOfPrecision
Guest
Talker
Hall of Fame
Serena has no stats to argue with in a GOAT discussion, we all know that.
As far as racism, it can take two forms, taking away credit when it's deserved or giving credit when it isn't deserved because of race.
In this case the discussion is giving credit to Serena (including her in the GOAT discussion) when it isn't deserved, it is illogical given all the data and it would point to either racism to the person arguing that Serena should be in the discussion or the person arguing for Serena is biased in some other way.
In any case, if you were to look at the numbers without knowing anything about race, Serena is lacking in many areas.
Another reason could be that Serena acts like a spoiled 16 yr old.
As far as racism, it can take two forms, taking away credit when it's deserved or giving credit when it isn't deserved because of race.
In this case the discussion is giving credit to Serena (including her in the GOAT discussion) when it isn't deserved, it is illogical given all the data and it would point to either racism to the person arguing that Serena should be in the discussion or the person arguing for Serena is biased in some other way.
In any case, if you were to look at the numbers without knowing anything about race, Serena is lacking in many areas.
Another reason could be that Serena acts like a spoiled 16 yr old.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
Once Henin was at her best in 06-07, Serena was well past her best, yet Henin still needed great performances to take her out. And you forgot about the 07 Miami final, where Serena played horribly yet still somehow won in 3.
Serena 02-03 would take down Henin on HC 7 times out of 10.
cuddles26
Banned
so it's all about serena. Right? she started it all... all the great Black tennis champions from the past, like Ashe and Noah, Garrison and Mcneil are fireworks to entertain the racist tennis world... :-?
what can i say...
You definitely have a point about Ashe, and NamRanger about Gibson. However McNeil and Garrison cant be counted as true trailblazers. Garrison despite being a top 5 player for several years never won a slam title, and had embarassing head to heads like 1-27 vs Navratilova, and something similar to that vs Evert, Graf, and Seles, so simply wasnt a championship calibre player, even to a small degree. Furthermore she did nothing as far as off court influence other than whine and complain alot. She was not interesting, captivating, or personable like the Williams sisters.
McNeil was even far less accomplished a player than Garrison. She never made a slam final, and I am not sure if she even ever won a singles title. If it wasnt for her career moment upset of Graf at Wimbledon 94 nobody would even know her name. She was simply not an important enough fixture to make any impact, even if she had a more influential personality than the abrasive Garrison.
The Williams sisters are the next true trailblazers for their race in this sport in the wake of Gibson and Ashe.
Kenny022593
Professional
Joe Pike
Banned
Joe Pike
Banned
Would be risky if Serena had to play Testud, Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder, Rubin, Petrova, Zvonareva, Jidkova, Farina Elia, Schiavone, Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer, Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Na Li, Azarenka, Zakopalova or Stosur.
She might lose ...
LafayetteHitter
Hall of Fame
Obama was voted President, there is no such thing as racism.
Joe Pike
Banned
Don't play dumb - Seles was stabbed with 19 and returned to the game at 21.
Same age Navratilova won the first of her 18 slams.
Joe Pike
Banned
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
...you still avoid admitting Seles' fate had no bearing on Graf's post-stabbing victories against players not on Seles' level. If they are inferior to Seles, then cough it up, as the anti-Serena crowd are quick to do about her competition.
Further, you need to address how others with as many slams are routinely considered among the all-time greatest, yet when SW is mentioned as sharing that status, such virulent rants against Serena occur often?
Who is reguarded as a goat that has the same number of titles as serena?
who are the "others" that you're referring to?
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
No one is denying Serena is a top 10 all time great. The thing people are arguing is that she is a candidate at this point to be the actual greatest player of all time. Judging by the overwhelming response to the OP, you are the only one that really seems to think Serena right now deserves to be on equal level with the 4 who are most always hailed as the greatest. Serena does not have the numbers, that is why most people rant whenever anyone calls her anything close to the actual greatest of all time.
Also, to address an earlier post you made about how people are so critical of Serena and so much more so than the other 4 women. Firstly, Graf is always criticized for the results of the stabbing, granted the most vehement critics have pretty much been banned on this board she has been criticized. Nav has been downgraded for her results being in what some perceive as a weak era and Court's Australians are at least cut in half by most everybody because of weak fields. Evert is detracted for the blown H2H advantage and beatings handed her by Martina. However the reason that those people are routinely called the absolute greatest is because once they hit their strides they dominated the game for years at a time and cared everywhere, both at the slams and outside them, and got bountiful results to prove that. Serena has not done that, she has not matched Nav, Graf, Evert and Court in this respect, which I think has been explicitly stated several times in this thread and other threads about Serena. Even if she somehow gets the same number of slams as them (highly doubtful but lets give her the possibility), he non slam numbers and seeming general lack of accomplishment in that area will always hold her back. A player who may not even end her career with 50 singles titles be called the absolute greatest player of all time when there are players who won 2 or 3 times as much?Sorry, but I really don't understand how you cannot see why this makes some people angry and leads them to question the intelligence of people saying she deserves equal status to those women despite having nothing on her resume that comes close?
The reason Serena gets it so much more is because she is the current player who is going to end up highest on the GOAT list unless Henin somehow pulls a miracle in her comeback. Most people on here are not old enough to accurately discuss anyone beyond graf because the majority of posters, unless I am mistaken, are 25 or younger around here it seems. people jump on Serena because she is the current player, its the same reason that there are so many Fed is lucky Nadal is lucky threads and you don't see that many similar threads about past players like Borg, Laver, Lendl and the like. Current players always get more attention and usuualy criticism then past ones, thats how things usually work.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Learn, because your comment shows a complete ignorance of the evolution of the slur in relation to race in North America's development, the displacement/disparity of blacks in said regions, and the phenomenon of propaganda generated to equate a race with a negative state of being.
Briefly, if you truly knew the etymology related to its North American usage, then you would know to avoid stating something as incorrect, since the early and post Ellis Island immigrants heavily associated with the term died fairly early as they were eventually able to assmimilate in ways the PTB would not allow for blacks. As migrating blacks lived in areas (temporarily sharing, then) abandoned by the EI-ers, society would only see the black populations explode in said areas from the early decades of the 20th century to the present day, with the popular propaganda being used against blacks longer than you could possibly realize. It became the standard slur used for decades for everyone from the man on the street, to politicians and the media--all selling and linking this region/condition as a unified, wholly negative, racially based way of being.
Dreaming is nice, but eventually, one must wake up.
Do you even know any black people? Have you ever spent real time with black people? ...and I do not mean at work, or school, or passing by a few at Wal-Mart, but really know them--and from different economic, ideological and political backgrounds? I do, sonny-boy, and have for a good portion of my years, and innmerable friends (no matter the background) have decried the ghetto stereotype for all of the reasons stated here.
Go tell them all how wrong they are.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
You are kidding, right?
11 slams and counting is generally considered one of the greats in most estimations, but as this thread proves, ONE person is not so great achieving the same thing. Remember, this is the same board where certain members have tried to argue Henin being the greatest of this generation above SW--when SW had more slams. Figure that one out.
A couple of members offered that theory, but the majority defend Graf in one way or another, and have yet to take a critical look at her opponents post-stabbing to apply the same criteria of "real opponent" that is used with SW's competition.
Who among the TT-ers really do this, save less than a handfull? In the media, she's still hailed as one of the greatest if not the greatest in the views of some. Criticism barely gains ground with Martina.
That's not the meida's general impression, nor the majority view in the Former Pros forum.
Funny. Players who lucked their way into winning a single slam--but do not have some record-making number of match wins overall will likely get into the HoF, which will include Ivanovic, Martinez, Myskina and others. In the event they get in, will you criticize the nominating board for essentially elevating these players to a great status? Because HoF inductees--no matter the sport--are seen as being...great. So if the day should come, and Ivanovic takes her dizzy ass up to the stand to accept entry, will you (or anyone else) say she does not belong there? If so, why?
That speaks volumes...for other reasons.
Joe Pike
Banned
Graf didn't beat her own sister in most of her slam finals.
But Sanchez (5 times), Navratilova (4 times), Seles (3 times), Evert (once) and Hingis (once) among others.
Do I know black people? Try growing up in the 3rd Ward of Houston, a neighborhood / area that is predominantly black and hispanic. You don't know anything about my background, so how bout you go and take a nice cup of STFU.
All this fancy schmancy talk and you are still making the same claim which is false, that ghetto somehow only refers to black Americans. This is false, and any half respecting black person would be totally offended that you are making the claim that using the term "ghetto" is a racist remark and that it only refers to black people. In fact, I'm beginning to think the only racist person here is you. The term "ghetto" has been by Americans TODAY (read : TODAY) as a term to describe people who come from a lower economic status and have a certain set of behaviors and attitudes. Blacks do fit this category, as well as hispanics, whites, asians, middle easterns, etc.
The worst part is it is very obvious that you actually have an education, but you are so blinded by your infatuation with Serena Williams that you can't even concede that the other side may actually be right. That only goes to show how pathetic you actually are.
Last edited:
The sad part is Al Sharpton the II is incapable of telling the difference between discrimination and racism, even with an education which he obviously received based on the grammar and structure of his posts.
Cup8489
G.O.A.T.
i like how you're complaining that Graf's era was weak, and she won 22 majors, but half against supposedly mediocre opponents. so you're saying she won 11 against quality opponents, the same number serena has TOTAL?
by your own logic you just proved why Serena is NOT the GOAT. or rather, by your fallacious statements, because it's certainly not logical to say that Serena is the GOAT based on what you said here.
Last edited:
Lionheart392
Professional
This is total pwnage.
