Examples of coaches ruining players

Gonzalito17

Gonzalito17

Banned
We all hear about the success stories - Agassi and BG, Roddick and BG, Sampras and Tim Gullikson, Edberg and Pickard, Agassi and Nick Bollettieri. But coaches are not perfect and don't always get the job done, sometimes they fail with a player. I just heard of a a kid from Spain who at 12 won the big tourney in France at 11 and then defended the title at 12, not even Nadal did that. This kid was better than Nadal at 12. Then the coaches supposedly changed his game and they ruined the poor kid, now the kid is 19 and nothing special.

Then there was Todd Martin who while paired with Djokovic and Fish got nothing accomplished. Not that Martin doesn't know tennis but he just didn't connect with those players and or perhaps they weren't ready to ascend. Bad timing.

We hear so many success stories about coaches who create champions and star players but there must be just as many examples of great young talents who were ruined because they had subpar or even bad coaching. Please discuss.... Thanks,
 
batz

batz

G.O.A.T.
Lendl hasn't ruined any players, but he has ruined things for some TT posters.

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mmk

mmk

Hall of Fame
Biggest coaching mistake ever: whoever decided that Sharapova should switch to playing right-handed.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
batz said:
Lendl hasn't ruined any players, but he has ruined things for some TT posters.

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Lendl ruined Brad Gilbert so hard as a player that it unleashed the coaching beast within the Brad.
 
norbac

norbac

Legend
smoledman said:
Connors ruined Roddick.
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Nah, that was Andy's brother who ruined him. Roddick actually showed a bit of a resurgence with Connors, winning in Cincinnati, reaching the US Open final while giving Roger a tough fight, and reaching the semis in Australia (beat down not withstanding).
 
S

SStrikerR

Hall of Fame
Let's stick to pros, not juniors. Success in the juniors means nothing, especially at a young age. A 12 year old being nothing special by 19 isn't shocking. That happens all the time.
 
Gonzalito17

Gonzalito17

Banned
I remember Andy Murray alluding something about his brother being miscoached when he was 12 or 13 or 14 and it ruined him.
 
Gonzalito17

Gonzalito17

Banned
Connors and Murray would have been an interesting combination, doubt Lendl is the only man who could have unlocked the major champion inside of Murray.
 
Clarky21

Clarky21

Banned
Gonzalito17 said:
We all hear about the success stories - Agassi and BG, Roddick and BG, Sampras and Tim Gullikson, Edberg and Pickard, Agassi and Nick Bollettieri. But coaches are not perfect and don't always get the job done, sometimes they fail with a player. I just heard of a a kid from Spain who at 12 won the big tourney in France at 11 and then defended the title at 12, not even Nadal did that. This kid was better than Nadal at 12. Then the coaches supposedly changed his game and they ruined the poor kid, now the kid is 19 and nothing special. Then there was Todd Martin who while paired with Djokovic and Fish got nothing accomplished. Not that Martin doesn't know tennis but he just didn't connect with those players and or perhaps they weren't ready to ascend. Bad timing.

We hear so many success stories about coaches who create champions and star players but there must be just as many examples of great young talents who were ruined because they had subpar or even bad coaching. Please discuss.... Thanks,
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And just who is this phenom that you are talking about? If he was actually any good I am sure we would have heard about him by now.
 
jaggy

jaggy

Talk Tennis Guru
Who was the left handed chick I think she was swiss and her coach was nuts, made her drink oranje juice all the time or something. Big skinny bint, cant rememember her name.
 
D

dangalak

Banned
Gonzalito17 said:
Nobody ruined Roddick the game just passed him by, or he hit his plateau earlier than certain other great players.
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I loathe it when people use the words "the game passed him by". It's code for "I know little and am trying to appear smart."

jaggy said:
Who was the left handed chick I think she was swiss and her coach was nuts, made her drink oranje juice all the time or something. Big skinny bint, cant rememember her name.
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Patty Schnyder? :)
 
D

davo81

New User
There are SO MANY crazy things to be told about Patty Schnyder and her "coaches". Unfortunately she likes to sue everybody hence I'll be quiet.
 
Zarfot Z

Zarfot Z

Professional
Donald Young's parents = worst coaches by far.

They transformed their son from a Junior world number 1 to a 17 consecutive losing streak failure.
 
jaggy

jaggy

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes it was Schnyder although im not sure what Id have worth suing for. A pair of Adidas Stan Smiths are about all I am worh
 
D

davo81

New User
Young is still top 160. I think other junior stars have done similarly or worse. Junior rankings are distorted by the fact that the true top juniors are already pros by that age. Interesting trivia fact: the guy who was year-end junior world number one the year after Young is exactly one spot below Young right now. The 2007 year-end junior world number one is top 90 right now - also not stellar. The 2008 year-end junior world number one is top 240 right now. The 2009 year-end junior world number one (almost 20 years old now) is top 730 right now. The 2010 year-end junior world number one (20 years old now) is top 540 now. The last year-end junior world number one that has been really successful is the one from 2004: Gaël Monfils.
 
T

thejackal

Hall of Fame
Clarky21 said:
And just who is this phenom that you are talking about? If he was actually any good I am sure we would have heard about him by now.
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Sounds like carlos boluda. But then again he beat christian harrison at les petits as way back when because he was twice his size at age 12
 
Vcore89

Vcore89

Talk Tennis Guru
smoledman said:
Connors ruined Roddick.
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Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?
 
Jonny S&V

Jonny S&V

Hall of Fame
Vcore89 said:
Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?
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...umm, no... #hisonlygrandslam
 
Bobby Jr

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
I think you could argue that Bollettieri has ruined a series of players. He had tons of kids who had potential come through his system who turned out to be unimaginative ball-bashers. While they had some success I get the feeling that a few would have done better if their teaching had included more emphasis on match-craft.
 
decrepitude

decrepitude

Rookie
Not ruining a player exactly, but I always felt Stefanki ruined Tim Henman's serve. Pre Stefanki, Tim had a serve that was erratic but a weapon when it went in. Stefanki made it more safe by slowing it down to get a greater percentage in, but that left Tim without that weapon.
 
M

Mister drool

Rookie
Well... I'm a coatch, and i ruin my students all the time.
Its fine, they dont complaint.
AHAHA

but really, having a bad relation with the ONE person you have to rely on... Its bad in tennis and everywere else!
 
S

scotus

G.O.A.T.
Vcore89 said:
Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?
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How did Brad Gilbert ruin Roddick's career?

Brad Gilbert never tried to turn Roddick into a pusher or grinder.

It was under Gilbert's tutelage that Roddick had the most formidable 1-2 punch of servce and forehand.

Roddick's sole slam win also came when Gilbert was coaching him.

Gilbert knew very well Roddick's strengths and weaknesses, and Gilbert wasn't so concerned about strengthening Roddick's weaknesses as much as about turning his strengths into world-class weapons and using them to exploit the weakness of his opponents.

If there was the single greatest mistake Roddick made in his career, it was dumping Gilbert that early in his career.
 
P

pound cat

G.O.A.T.
No coach ruins a player. The player hires and pays the coach and if the player isn't getting the results he wants with that coach, fire him and get someone else.
 
Ash_Smith

Ash_Smith

Legend
decrepitude said:
Not ruining a player exactly, but I always felt Stefanki ruined Tim Henman's serve. Pre Stefanki, Tim had a serve that was erratic but a weapon when it went in. Stefanki made it more safe by slowing it down to get a greater percentage in, but that left Tim without that weapon.
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This was the one that instantly jumped into my mind when I read the thread title.
 
Vcore89

Vcore89

Talk Tennis Guru
scotus said:
How did Brad Gilbert ruin Roddick's career?

Brad Gilbert never tried to turn Roddick into a pusher or grinder.

It was under Gilbert's tutelage that Roddick had the most formidable 1-2 punch of servce and forehand.

Roddick's sole slam win also came when Gilbert was coaching him.

Gilbert knew very well Roddick's strengths and weaknesses, and Gilbert wasn't so concerned about strengthening Roddick's weaknesses as much as about turning his strengths into world-class weapons and using them to exploit the weakness of his opponents.

If there was the single greatest mistake Roddick made in his career, it was dumping Gilbert that early in his career.
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I'm sure A-Rod and BG had an amicable parting of ways but I'm pretty sure A-Rod wasn't amenable to what BG wanted him to be. BG thought there's much more to be had but A-Rod thinks otherwise. A-Rod's singular slam was a result of working with his brother more so than BG's mentoring.
 
Gonzalito17

Gonzalito17

Banned
They did not part amicably. I remember not long after they split and BG interviewed Roddick on court after a win and Roddick was cold as ice, did not even acknowledge BG as his old pal. It was very cold and distant. There was clearly some issues there but since then they have worked it out and they do the friendly fist tap on TV after interviews now.
 
Gonzalito17

Gonzalito17

Banned
thejackal said:
Sounds like carlos boluda. But then again he beat christian harrison at les petits as way back when because he was twice his size at age 12
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Yes it was Carlos Boluda, I heard he was a terror and a great player but coaches messed up his game by changing his backhand. Also probably the pressure and expectation of everyone expecting him to be better than Nadal and then when it doesn't happen, the mind falls apart. It's so hard to come up in tennis as the can't miss star, so much different when you come up unknown and don't have to deal with all the pressure and expectation and all eyes on you. Dreadful impossible pressure for a kid in his teens to deal with.
 
J

jrs

Professional
Fathers of Jelana Dokic and Mary Pierece.

But lot of time the players don't have the dedication and discipline to become pros.

I once took lessons from coach who played at the ATP level - he said he was hired by junior to take her pro - but she just refused to work on what he wanted her to work on...he ended up being fired and she hired someone else ...and went no where...she's now teaching tennis at club level.
 
T

Tcbtennis

Hall of Fame
Vcore89 said:
Fair to say Brad Gilbert ruined A-Rod's as well? Lendl at least took Murray where BG failed. Evidently, a coach whose strategy of winning ugly (pushing and all) is not to be mentioned in the same breadth as an 8-time winner (both Connors and Lendl achieved 8 GSes and 2 WCTs)?
Click to expand...

I would have to guess that you never read Brad Gilbert's book, Winning Ugly. You are not alone in misconstruing the essence of the book just based on its title. It is about how Brad Gilbert was able to win against some of the best players of his day (Connors, McEnroe, Sampras) not with a killer forehand or massive serve but with his ability to think on the tennis court. Hence, he states that he won ugly. It's not about pushing or gamesmanship at all, though a lot of people think that is what he is referring to. His book is perfect for the recreational tennis player and I think a lot of pros would gain something from reading this book also.
 
wilkinru

wilkinru

Professional
Tcbtennis said:
I would have to guess that you never read Brad Gilbert's book, Winning Ugly. You are not alone in misconstruing the essence of the book just based on its title. It is about how Brad Gilbert was able to win against some of the best players of his day (Connors, McEnroe, Sampras) not with a killer forehand or massive serve but with his ability to think on the tennis court. Hence, he states that he won ugly. It's not about pushing or gamesmanship at all, though a lot of people think that is what he is referring to. His book is perfect for the recreational tennis player and I think a lot of pros would gain something from reading this book also.
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True, but with weapons - Agassi - Brad took him to another level in his 30s.

He took Roddick to a USO win also, using the strengths and hiding the weaknesses with them.

Brad likely tried to show him more and get the backhand more consistent, he did not happen like he wanted and they split up.
 
T

thejackal

Hall of Fame
Gonzalito17 said:
Yes it was Carlos Boluda, I heard he was a terror and a great player but coaches messed up his game by changing his backhand. Also probably the pressure and expectation of everyone expecting him to be better than Nadal and then when it doesn't happen, the mind falls apart. It's so hard to come up in tennis as the can't miss star, so much different when you come up unknown and don't have to deal with all the pressure and expectation and all eyes on you. Dreadful impossible pressure for a kid in his teens to deal with.
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its also not easy to make it on tour when you're 5'5 at age 12, and 5'7 at age 19. Id say that's just as big a factor if not bigger. he just didnt grow
 
N

nereis

Semi-Pro
That's true. It's incredibly difficult to succeed on tour if you're below 5'11, and even then you're considered 'small.'

Consider that much of Nadal's success has been the fact that he matured incredibly early and burst onto the scene all muscles standing 6'2 at 16-17.
 
brettsticker86

brettsticker86

Rookie
scotus said:
How did Brad Gilbert ruin Roddick's career?

Brad Gilbert never tried to turn Roddick into a pusher or grinder.

It was under Gilbert's tutelage that Roddick had the most formidable 1-2 punch of servce and forehand.

Roddick's sole slam win also came when Gilbert was coaching him.

Gilbert knew very well Roddick's strengths and weaknesses, and Gilbert wasn't so concerned about strengthening Roddick's weaknesses as much as about turning his strengths into world-class weapons and using them to exploit the weakness of his opponents.

If there was the single greatest mistake Roddick made in his career, it was dumping Gilbert that early in his career.
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agree ten-fold. It was when roddick split with gilbert and started working with Dean Goldfine. It was then that roddick began the "i need to play high percentage, running the baseline tennis". Killed his game.
 
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