How fast do recreational players serve?

Fuji · Apr 2, 2014

So I decided to get some footage of my own serve and use it on the speed app today!

My "Best" serves with some dead balls and a demo frame were 104, 100, 100, 100, 99. All first serves. My second serves ranged from 80-85 as slice serves. Nothing too crazy.

That being said, I'd hazard a guess that with my normal frames and fresh balls I could hit about 110 tops with this app.

-Fuji

LeeD · Apr 2, 2014

Totally agree.
You are younger, faster, stronger than me.
I wonder, what are your match play second serves? When you need them, not just hitting them against a radar gun.
Mine are closer to 75, with twists going at least 10 mph slower.

GuyClinch · Apr 2, 2014

So I decided to get some footage of my own serve and use it on the speed app today!

My "Best" serves with some dead balls and a demo frame were 104, 100, 100, 100, 99. All first serves. My second serves ranged from 80-85 as slice serves. Nothing too crazy.

That being said, I'd hazard a guess that with my normal frames and fresh balls I could hit about 110 tops with this app.

Sounds legit. Kick serve usually about 30mph slower then a first serve. But we have really settled nothing on this thread.

There are two camps:

Camp 1: A 100mph serve - almost no one really hits it - though a lot of people think they do. Its rare - like the ability to crank an 85 mph fastball out to left field. (If you get a chance to try this - you will discover its ***** hard).

Camp 2: A 100mph serve is dog standard. Most men who play 100 times or more a year and are under the age of 40 will hit them. So yeah the average serve might not top 80 - but the people on the internet don't really count those people.

A good real life comparison to this would be powerlifting. The general standard to be strong is bench 300/ Squat 400/ Deadlift 500. In reality hardly anyone does this - if you look at all the gym members in the world. There are so many little old ladies and small kids and injured dudes just stretching that the number of people who can do this is probably 1 in a 1000. Heck it might be 1 in 10,000.

But if you went to some powerlifting forum - a lot of the members could do that. It's the same thing here..albeit to a smaller extent.

Fuji · Apr 3, 2014

LeeD said:
Totally agree.
You are younger, faster, stronger than me.
I wonder, what are your match play second serves? When you need them, not just hitting them against a radar gun.
Mine are closer to 75, with twists going at least 10 mph slower.

My second serves during match play probably float around that 70-80MPH mark. The fastest second serve I hit was 85MPH, but I realistically won't hit that too often during play. I wouldn't be surprised if my kick serve was about 65-70; it's pretty slow through the air.

Averaging around 100 on first serve isn't that crazy. I have one of the bigger serves for my level, and I know play one guy at my level that serves bigger than I do.

-Fuji

Fuji · Apr 3, 2014

GuyClinch said:
Sounds legit. Kick serve usually about 30mph slower then a first serve. But we have really settled nothing on this thread.

There are two camps:

Camp 1: A 100mph serve - almost no one really hits it - though a lot of people think they do. Its rare - like the ability to crank an 85 mph fastball out to left field. (If you get a chance to try this - you will discover its ***** hard).

Camp 2: A 100mph serve is dog standard. Most men who play 100 times or more a year and are under the age of 40 will hit them. So yeah the average serve might not top 80 - but the people on the internet don't really count those people.

A good real life comparison to this would be powerlifting. The general standard to be strong is bench 300/ Squat 400/ Deadlift 500. In reality hardly anyone does this - if you look at all the gym members in the world. There are so many little old ladies and small kids and injured dudes just stretching that the number of people who can do this is probably 1 in a 1000. Heck it might be 1 in 10,000.

But if you went to some powerlifting forum - a lot of the members could do that. It's the same thing here..albeit to a smaller extent.

Haha that's for sure. It's tough trying to get some good information out of here.

The biggest thing is that there is a difference between the average and the max. My average first serve is going to be floating around that high 90's mark, I don't change much from bucket serving to serving under pressure, on my first serve at least. I rarely go for the "huge" bomb of 105+ in a match, it's just too wild a lot of the time.

The second serve idea is interesting though. I think I drop quite a bit of speed on my second serve during match play, I would guess at least 5MPH, if not more on average.

Also, regarding your camps. The people that are in my level, I've only seen a handful of guys serve bigger than me. I have one of the "biggest" serves for my level at my club. It's all relative though, I have video evidence of my buddy who plays varisity tennis hitting 110 to 120MPH on the same app. Right now I'm in the camp, that most people can break 100 with enough practice and coaching, but the biggest thing is the technique. I actually have really funky technique (my serve looks almost identical to Tomic's) and I feel if I cleaned up the shoulder a bit I could go bigger.

-Fuji

ilovetennis212 · Apr 6, 2014

I'm 5'9 short guy.
It's been 6years I start to play tennis.
Never had chance to take a lesson from USTA coach.
I'm slow learner.
I will clock 120mph someday.
106mph max so far.
96mph in video.
Any critics are welcome.
http://youtu.be/F7vLoZNV6xw
And that pink bag is my wife's bag. Lol

JoelDali · Apr 7, 2014

GOATing......

shindemac · Apr 7, 2014

GuyClinch said:
There are two camps:

Camp 1: A 100mph serve - almost no one really hits it - though a lot of people think they do. Its rare - like the ability to crank an 85 mph fastball out to left field. (If you get a chance to try this - you will discover its ***** hard).

Camp 2: A 100mph serve is dog standard. Most men who play 100 times or more a year and are under the age of 40 will hit them. So yeah the average serve might not top 80 - but the people on the internet don't really count those people.

Are there still people in camp 1?! Serving 100mph is not that impressive a feat. I think anyone young and fit can hit this number if they put in the time. It's only a big deal cause people see it's 3 digits, and they probably never put it in the time, so they assume it must be impossible. But once you start practicing, you realize 100mph is a low bar for someone fit and healthy.

JoelDali · Apr 7, 2014

Can a 4.0 get a point of Seppi? I think not.

TennisCJC · Apr 7, 2014

We had a fat tall guy around 6' 3" or so on our team years ago. He could hit a serve over 100 MPH but maybe 1 in 5 went in at best. His biggest serves were over 110 mph in my estimation. He sucked and played the lowest position on the team because A. he had no 2nd serve and DF-ed all the time, and B. the rest of game was erratic too.

But, he could hit a serve very, very hard. His motion was not horrible and he had a little spin. But, he just didn't have enough technique or spin to get it in more than 10-20% of the time so it was pretty worthless. He also didn't seemed concerned with improving it either. He just like to walk up to the line, toss it up and smack the heck out of it.

5263 · Apr 7, 2014

ilovetennis212 said:
I'm 5'9 short guy.
It's been 6years I start to play tennis.
Never had chance to take a lesson from USTA coach.
I'm slow learner.
I will clock 120mph someday.
106mph max so far.
96mph in video.
Any critics are welcome.
http://youtu.be/F7vLoZNV6xw
And that pink bag is my wife's bag. Lol

Try this....step up to the svc line with that same set up (maybe even with the radar set up a bit higher close to net height) and see what you get. I bet you can break 100 by a bit...will you try it?

shindemac · Apr 7, 2014

5263 said:
Try this....step up to the svc line with that same set up (maybe even with the radar set up a bit higher close to net height) and see what you get. I bet you can break 100 by a bit...will you try it?

I've already done this, and the speed will be higher. I haven't tried to account for all the variables, but there's definitely a big discrepancy between pro radar guns and consumer models, esp. looking at that Sandler match.

LeeD · Apr 7, 2014

100, it's possible.
110, it's possible.
120, no chance, because you're too old to really change all that much in your game.

hray4clay · Apr 7, 2014

Fuji said:
So I decided to get some footage of my own serve and use it on the speed app today!

My "Best" serves with some dead balls and a demo frame were 104, 100, 100, 100, 99. All first serves. My second serves ranged from 80-85 as slice serves. Nothing too crazy.

That being said, I'd hazard a guess that with my normal frames and fresh balls I could hit about 110 tops with this app.

-Fuji

Can a "regular" person buy a piece of equipment that he can use to measure the speed of his serve and what would that equipment cost, praytell?

Fuji · Apr 7, 2014

hray4clay said:
Can a "regular" person buy a piece of equipment that he can use to measure the speed of his serve and what would that equipment cost, praytell?

I just used my iPhone and the "servespeed" app. Just record yourself serving and input some personal data to retrieve your MPH/KPH speed. I read that it's almost identical to Pro radar speeds within a couple MPH, so it gives relatively accurate speeds.

The app is available on the apple app store for free.

-Fuji

WildVolley · Apr 7, 2014

hray4clay said:
Can a "regular" person buy a piece of equipment that he can use to measure the speed of his serve and what would that equipment cost, praytell?

You can buy a radar gun. TW sells the Pocket Radar for $200. You can find other radar systems of varying quality from about $60-$2000. I think there are a number around $200 these days that work very well.

ilovetennis212 · Apr 7, 2014

LeeD said:
100, it's possible.

110, it's possible.

120, no chance, because you're too old to really change all that much in your game.

I'm just half old of your age..
But I know I'm too old for tennis age (17 - 30) since I'm 31yrs old. Lol
Wish there's someone around me who break down my technic.
I will post 110mph soon

ilovetennis212 · Apr 7, 2014

hray4clay said:
Can a "regular" person buy a piece of equipment that he can use to measure the speed of his serve and what would that equipment cost, praytell?

http://www.hockeymonkey.com/proguar...-trac-x.html?gclid=CJfY-aud0L0CFbFaMgodjkoANg

GuyClinch · Apr 8, 2014

Speed Trac gets very poor reviews. I would not champion that - it seems to consistently score much lower then a Juggs radar gun.

I think the frame rate method is more accurate..YMMV.

ilovetennis212 · Apr 8, 2014

GuyClinch said:
Speed Trac gets very poor reviews. I would not champion that - it seems to consistently score much lower then a Juggs radar gun.

I think the frame rate method is more accurate..YMMV.

speed trac x read slower than actual speed of the ball. Because it reads when ball is coming close to speed trac.
Pro's gun read the speed of the ball right after service contact is made.
You can add +5mph to speed trac x radar's speed to get more accurate speed.
Frame rate method is more accurate if you have time to calculate all your serve of the matches.
With speed trac x, I kinda notice what's wrong with my service motion when the speed shows low. And I can study on my muscle memory of aces (+100mph) service motion at the court.
I think that's the benefit of having any speed gun at the court.

mightyrick · Apr 8, 2014

GuyClinch said:
Speed Trac gets very poor reviews. I would not champion that - it seems to consistently score much lower then a Juggs radar gun.

I think the frame rate method is more accurate..YMMV.

Huhuhuhuh huhuhuhuh eheheheh.... you said... juggs....

Dimcorner · Apr 13, 2014

Ok so I did a semi test.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=8293952&postcount=218

JoelDali · Apr 13, 2014

Crickets...

Nostradamus · Apr 13, 2014

Speed Trac X sucks big time. Not accurate. just to prove it. I hit some Groundies at same speed and it Varied by 15-20 MPH.
so I suspect same thing is happening with Serves too

ilovetennis212 · Apr 13, 2014

Nostradamus said:
Speed Trac X sucks big time. Not accurate. just to prove it. I hit some Groundies at same speed and it Varied by 15-20 MPH.
so I suspect same thing is happening with Serves too

It's speed reading range is not that wide compared to pro's gun.
Of course it varies by 15+ MPH unless you hit the ball directly toward speed gun.
It varies with your hitting angle and ball's trajectory.
It will read your groundies much slower than actual speed if you are loopy top spin hitter.
I can't complain with $130-affordable-radar-gun.

psv255 · Apr 13, 2014

Nostradamus said:
Speed Trac X sucks big time. Not accurate. just to prove it. I hit some Groundies at same speed and it Varied by 15-20 MPH.
so I suspect same thing is happening with Serves too

Not sure if it sucks, but did the frame count and Speedtrac on the same 2 FHs and came up with 77 frame count 71 radar, and 75 frame count 73 radar. So my unit underestimates in the 3-7% range, or frame count overestimates by up to 8% relative to each other.

Steady Eddy · May 28, 2018

LeeD said:
4some I played with today...
1. Rightie chopper, first serves around 65 mph, second's maybe 45...
2. Rightie big hitter, 25, a college baseball player, first serves 90, second serves double faults at the same speed.
3. My partner, weak 4.0 but super consistent.....first serves 60, 2nd 40.
4. Lefty using only slice serves, first maybe 85 (but 10 aces in 2 service games), seconds maybe 65.
5. Next court, 12 year old, first serves maybe 80, seconds closer to 45.
6. Next court, 15 year old, first serves maybe 85, seconds maybe 45.
7. Next court, 4.0 topspinner, first serves 80, same with second serves.
8. Next court, 3.5 lefty chopper, 1st serves 50, second serves 35 at best.

This is the kind of information I'm looking for.

After a 4 year hiatus, I'm starting to play doubles again. I think this is a pretty good description of how fast most of the players serve. They rarely double fault ( the group I'm in), and actually hit up on their second serves, allowing gravity to pull it into the box. Player #3 sounds like how most of them serve. Nobody tees off on a 60 mph serve, and often errors are made on it.

I used to always try to spin my serves in, but now that I'm rusty and getting older, I'm thinking of changing it. I think a serve going as slow as 60 mph doesn't need spin as gravity has pulled it down plenty before it crosses the service line.

A high toss isn't needed either, and the low toss isn't bothered by the wind and makes the sun less of a problem. At that speed aces won't happen very often, but neither will df's, and since the returner doesn't get two chances it might lead to holding serve more often than not.

zaph · May 28, 2018

The reality is virtually non of you serve over 100mph. If you have it on a properly calibrated and operated speed gun, I will believe you, otherwise.

We have one guy at our club whose serve is miles better than anyone else, he really can hit the 120's and the different between his serve and the other people who claim to have a fast serve is night and day. If he hits the corners you are not only aced, you don't move before it hits the back fence. You can't swing at it, only block and forget about returning from the baseline.

Most rec players have slow serves, that is the reality. Hardly surprising you can't match the pros, you're not that good. Put it another way, I can take a swing at the serves of the other players who claim to have 100mph plus serves. if I can do it, there is no way they are that fast.

Now maybe the members here are more realistic about their abilities than the people I play against, but I doubt it.

FiReFTW · May 28, 2018

zaph said:
The reality is virtually non of you serve over 100mph. If you have it on a properly calibrated and operated speed gun, I will believe you, otherwise.

We have one guy at our club whose serve is miles better than anyone else, he really can hit the 120's and the different between his serve and the other people who claim to have a fast serve is night and day. If he hits the corners you are not only aced, you don't move before it hits the back fence. You can't swing at it, only block and forget about returning from the baseline.

Most rec players have slow serves, that is the reality. Hardly surprising you can't match the pros, you're not that good. Put it another way, I can take a swing at the serves of the other players who claim to have 100mph plus serves. if I can do it, there is no way they are that fast.

Now maybe the members here are more realistic about their abilities than the people I play against, but I doubt it.

Do you think its bad technique? Because someone who is young and fit should be able to at least serve around 100mph for sure, considering how very short WTA girls serve with not optimal technique.

Nostradamus · May 28, 2018

Steady Eddy said:
Back in the 80's, a shopping mall would offer players the opportunity to have their serve speed measured with a radar gun. They'd post the highest speeds. One time the guy in front of me even got his into the 130's!

But most people were surprisingly slow. Including me. I got into the upper 70's, but didn't break 80. Also, they listed the fastest speed for a female, and it was 80, even.

A lot of people self report serves of over 100 mph. How do they know? Might a lot of people be mistaken over their serve speed?

Serving Over 100 MPH, on practice serves about 2-3 times in 50 tries.............LOL. Ask yourself, is that really accurate assessment ???? Most Rec players serve 60-90 MPH depending on level.

Having said that though.......... I think Rec players can Serve much much better and Harder if they practice the serve all the time and do some strength exercises to increase the power on the serve. But 90 % of rec players, almost NEVER practice the serve or do strength increasing workouts.

FiReFTW · May 28, 2018

Nostradamus said:
Serving Over 100 MPH, on practice serves about 2-3 times in 50 tries.............LOL. Ask yourself, is that really accurate assessment ???? Most Rec players serve 60-90 MPH depending on level.

Having said that though.......... I think Rec players can Serve much much better and Harder if they practice the serve all the time and do some strength exercises to increase the power on the serve. But 90 % of rec players, almost NEVER practice the serve or do strength increasing workouts.

What do you think are the most important muscles to strenghten for a great fast explosive serve?

Nostradamus · May 28, 2018

FiReFTW said:
What do you think are the most important muscles to strenghten for a great fast explosive serve?

Leg muscles, CORE strength. and shoulder muscles.

Nostradamus · May 28, 2018

ilovetennis212 said:
http://www.hockeymonkey.com/proguar...-trac-x.html?gclid=CJfY-aud0L0CFbFaMgodjkoANg

This is piece of Garbage. is completely inaccurate. it doesnt' measure true speed as the ball comes off the racket face like at the ATP tour tournaments

FiReFTW · May 28, 2018

Nostradamus said:
Leg muscles, CORE strength. and shoulder muscles.

Yes pretty good picks, what about hips do you think they also play a big role?

Nostradamus · May 28, 2018

FiReFTW said:
Yes pretty good picks, what about hips do you think they also play a big role?

Hip is part of the CORE strength. it is more important on groundies than serves. leg and Gluteus strength is very important on serves. and bigger butt, I think girls like that too

Ft.S · May 28, 2018

I played singles with a barely 3.5 player about a month ago on a court with PlaySight. According to the system my opponent's first serves - which were waiter tray flats - average 84-86 mph, seconds were between 65-68 mph. I had most of my firsts between 92-94 mph and fastest 'in' serve was 96, fastest barely missed one was 100. My first serve in % was 43, and my opponent's were 38.

Last week I played doubles against a 3.0 and 3.5 pair, the 3.0 player had flat serves there were far higher in speed than the opponent I played singles against earlier in the month, so I can only guess they were way above 90 mph, but this 3.0 player's first serves were maybe in 25-30% of the time (we did not have playsight on this court).

So, maybe we are underestimating our serve speeds; although accuracy is no where near where it should be of course

FiReFTW · May 28, 2018

Nostradamus said:
and bigger butt, I think girls like that too

I like it too, on girls

zaph · May 28, 2018

FiReFTW said:
Do you think its bad technique? Because someone who is young and fit should be able to at least serve around 100mph for sure, considering how very short WTA girls serve with not optimal technique.

Bad technique is a big part of it, I have seen all sorts of weird and wonderful serve techniques. Players who leap sideways when they serve, lean backwards or serve it virtually at head height. My serve technique is awful. My favourite is what I call the stealth waiter serve. This is the player who thinks they don't waiter serves and starts off with the right technique, then switches to a waiter serve before contacting the ball.

Often the bigger servers are big serves just because they are tall and strong. Which is great for them, but it doesn't give them much incentive to learn the serve properly. They can muscle it with any old technique and it will fly. Others have found that slower serves with more spin or give their opponent no pace are more effective.

For others it is physical. I am short and lightly built, some of the people I play have 50 or more pounds on me. Even if I hit it with perfect technique I doubt I could serve big.

richardc-s · May 28, 2018

Nostradamus said:
Leg muscles, CORE strength. and shoulder muscles.

For people with solid technique who use their whole body while serving I would say your pick is good, however most people have rubbish technique and muscle the ball.

Based on that I would say an average guy who wants a faster serve without improving his technique should just build up their upper body strength.

This is a video of my serve...

I would say my technique is alright, nothing amazing. But I do a lot of weight training so I have the strength to muscle the ball (5ft11 225lbs). The serves in this video are all slices with a bit of top, although the last 2 serves are hit flat (and miss!)

Any ideas how fast they are?

S&V-not_dead_yet · May 28, 2018

zaph said:
For others it is physical. I am short and lightly built, some of the people I play have 50 or more pounds on me. Even if I hit it with perfect technique I doubt I could serve big.

Do you think you will serve faster if you gain 50lbs? Seems unlikely [unless it's muscle]. And you're not going to get any taller [assuming you're past your growth phase]. So the only thing left is technique.

Use Schwartzmann and Cibulkova as your models, if need be.

Also, you don't have to serve big: serving accurately will probably win more points. Unless you're a, say, 5.0, where most guys serve big AND accurately, you'll do fine, IMO.

ChaelAZ · May 28, 2018

My serve might git the 90’s right now but more in the 80ish range anymore. Maybe if I sort out the neck and shoulder I’ll get back up there.

Overall I don’t see much more than a a few consistent 90ish servers

Probably posting from the court between sets.

movdqa · May 28, 2018

I have a friend, 6'5", construction worker, and he's had his serve radar measured over 120 MPH. But the percentage of the tennis population that tall is likely small.

S&V-not_dead_yet · May 28, 2018

ChaelAZ said:
My serve might git the 90’s right now but more in the 80ish range anymore. Maybe if I sort out the neck and shoulder...

Hint: the neck should go above the shoulder.

ChaelAZ · May 28, 2018

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Hint: the neck should go above the shoulder.

Ughhh, I knew I was doing it wrong but I found a video on Youtube...

Probably posting from the court between sets.

FiReFTW · May 28, 2018

richardc-s said:
For people with solid technique who use their whole body while serving I would say your pick is good, however most people have rubbish technique and muscle the ball.

Based on that I would say an average guy who wants a faster serve without improving his technique should just build up their upper body strength.

This is a video of my serve...

I would say my technique is alright, nothing amazing. But I do a lot of weight training so I have the strength to muscle the ball (5ft11 225lbs). The serves in this video are all slices with a bit of top, although the last 2 serves are hit flat (and miss!)

Any ideas how fast they are?

Your underestimating urself, your technique is pretty good man.

Serve speed looks nice, tho you could serve faster if you really explode more and be more explosive, it seems like your casually serving, not really pushing off with full 100% effort, was that conscious or maybe ur not aware of it?

richardc-s · May 28, 2018

FiReFTW said:
Your underestimating urself, your technique is pretty good man.

Serve speed looks nice, tho you could serve faster if you really explode more and be more explosive, it seems like your casually serving, not really pushing off with full 100% effort, was that conscious or maybe ur not aware of it?

Thanks. Yea I'm lazy with my lower body, it's not deliberate but I know I do it. I have tried to get the lower body more involved but I only play a few hours a week and I don't have the time (and patience) to revamp it.

Using that serve speed app it showed the serves varied from 85-110mph. Don't know how accurate that is but I'd be happy if it were true.

FiReFTW · May 28, 2018

richardc-s said:
Thanks. Yea I'm lazy with my lower body, it's not deliberate but I know I do it. I have tried to get the lower body more involved but I only play a few hours a week and I don't have the time (and patience) to revamp it.

Using that serve speed app it showed the serves varied from 85-110mph. Don't know how accurate that is but I'd be happy if it were true.

Using a tool to calculate speed based on frames per second I calculate ur slice serves are around 80-85mph, while your flat serves are around 85-100mph (Its hard to calculate them because you hit them long).

Pretty good speed, specially considering that you could be exploding and putting much more into them if you wanted to.

Chadillac · May 28, 2018

Nostradamus said:
This is piece of Garbage. is completely inaccurate. it doesnt' measure true speed as the ball comes off the racket face like at the ATP tour tournaments

100 on one of those (sitting at the net) would be what mph coming off the string bed in your opinion?

A friend of mine was hitting 120+ on one of those, had very good serve.

movdqa · May 28, 2018

Chadillac said:
100 on one of those (sitting at the net) would be what mph coming off the string bed in your opinion?

A friend of mine was hitting 120+ on one of those, had very good serve.

It might be interesting to see if an Apple Watch could measure speed as it does have one or more accelerometers. My Garmin chest strap has several accelerometers as well (it measures a lot of stuff related to running). Same thing with the Garmin Pod. I think that these could at best be placed on the shaft (for the Apple Watch), or higher up for the strap or the pod. It might be interesting to see if there's an off-the-shelf solution to measure velocity and transmit it to a phone.

Chadillac · May 28, 2018

movdqa said:
It might be interesting to see if an Apple Watch could measure speed as it does have one or more accelerometers. My Garmin chest strap has several accelerometers as well (it measures a lot of stuff related to running). Same thing with the Garmin Pod. I think that these could at best be placed on the shaft (for the Apple Watch), or higher up for the strap or the pod. It might be interesting to see if there's an off-the-shelf solution to measure velocity and transmit it to a phone.

There is probably an app, but i think it would be dependant on the camera frame capture speed. Your watch probably only does 30 fps, i see the iphone8 can do 60 if you unlock (non apple user).

Not real sure how the radar works.

How fast do recreational players serve?

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