2017 Halle SF - [1] Roger Federer vs Alexander Zverev
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pame
Hall of Fame
Well I'm more hoping Fed gets the double decima in slamsMatching Rafa's least of 3 Decima's
Rafa is the Decima guy, No chance of Rog getting 10 WIMs or 10 Cinci
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Maybe mindset would've been a better choice of word. It just makes me cringe whenever I hear a player say they're rooting for one of their fellow competitors to win a big tournament. I don't even recall guys coming out with such comments ten years ago, let alone back in the days of McEnroe and Connors.
pame
Hall of Fame
'Cos he's a 35-year old idiot?
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
He played an incredible match on grass when it mattered most, i.e. in the Halle final vs an up and coming dangerous young player.
IMO this Federer and the way he has been playing all year would beat 2015 Djokovic at Wimbledon.
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
fair enough. You're right. Zverev's a contender, of course he should limit himself to 'best of luck' at Wimbledon.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
D2011 wouldn't be complaining if Zverev had made the comment to Djokovic. He's full of it.
abmk
Bionic Poster
He was playing even better in the 2015 SF vs Murray (&QF vs simon) I think. Level dipped in the final.
So not necessarily.
He'd need to play at that level to win. Not so sure he's at that level. Z wasn't that great today , after all.
the way fed's been playing this year so far, I might take him vs djokovic in USO 15 final, but not necessarily the wimby 15 final form.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
We disagree. That's fine.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Precisely.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Of course you stand by what you said. You always do, and it's an admirable trait, but let's not pretend like a 2015 Djokovic would be lost against this "improved" Federer even on grass. Federer has played exactly one really good match on grass this year, and I'm not even convinced he's improved on any surface. He's just not playing anyone that's having an ATG season like Djokovic was in 2015. Which should be relatively easy for you to understand so you often talk about the relative weakness of 2014-2016 (I do generally agree there however).
And if I can be honest for a second, you may be letting your Djokovic bias cloud your judgement, but you can forget I said that if you want since you apparently never let your bias cloud your judgement when analyzing matches.
Anyhow, I'd still take a 2015 Djokovic over this Federer. Federer's been pretty good, but he's not hit that level yet IMO (he may never have to due to aforementioned factors).
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
lmao some truth to this comment tbh. i do find it funny when people self praise themselves as purely objective when there is always a little bit of hidden bias even in the most "objective" comments. only like a few users who are purely objective, like zagor imo and even then he would admit to being biased as well.
pame
Hall of Fame
Let's face it, even if Nadal were knocked out in an early round, you'd still favour him winning the Championships over Roger+1
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Let's face it, even if Nadal were knocked out in an early round, you'd still favour him winning the Championships over Roger
Well, I am a keen proponent of the Nadal being knocked out of the Championships in the first round.
As for the rest I am trying to stay level headed.
Nadal has one huge advantage over Federer and it is that he is more powerful.
That would help him hold easier on grass which would be key, if it comes to such final and also be pivotal for breaking down Federer's FH by hitting just enough from the uncomfortable positions in which no doubt Federer will put him.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I could only see part of this match as I had to go out but based on what I saw and what he did previously in the tournament, it's nowhere near the serving clinic that he put up against Murray in 2015. Missed some easy volleys today as well. I know this is just a tune up but the Fed we have seen so far on grass this year would get crushed by 2015 Djokovic. Whether or not he needs to bring ATG level tennis to win his 8th Wimbledon is another matter. But it's far from great at the moment.
Mainsacross
Semi-Pro
The level of fail on this post is off the spreadsheets.Zverev is more improved than Federer, sorry to tell you that mate.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...etterer-than-federer-on-grass-in-2017.592709/
Unless Zed comes out flat (a possibility, but not a probability given the strong finishes in his last two matches), toaster burns incoming for Federer's fanny. Zed in 2.
Zverev far superior to Federer in every aspect of the game, even dropshot and lob:
Break it down:
Serve: Zverev more pace, spin, and variety
Forehand: Zverev more authority
Backhand: Zverev can hit 3 or more topspin backhands in a row
Volleys: Zverev more punch, touch, and feel
Overall, not a very flattering situation for peak player against fresh-poking youngster.
@SoBad has spoken
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
I never said 2015 Djokovic would be lost against this Federer did I? I said IMO 2015 Djokovic would not beat the Federer we've seen so far this year. If Federer pushed Djokovic in 2014, I don't see how Djokovic would beat Federer with an improved bh and ROS.
I don't think I'm letting my anti-Djokovic bias get in the way because when Djokovic was at his best, I was predicting he would win all the time, i.e. against Nadal in 2011, against Federer at Wimbledon in 2015, etc so don't put words in my mouth please.
As for you, your own biases get in the way plenty when you are claiming to be objective especially where Nadal is concerned.
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Zed came out a bit flat in the big lats in no small part due to Fed. Had a nice game to hold at love for his last serve game and had a break point early in the 2nd. Very much like Djokovic vs. Thiem at Rome sad to say. Of course I don't have anywhere near the same vibe about Fed's chances ongoing as I had about Nole for RG. Fed is the favorite for Wimbledon hands down now. Hopefully Zverev doesn't have another fiasco at a slam.
Looks like Fed's stats may have understated his form a tad.
Not a bit flat, my dear, that was just atrocious. I did say Fed would handle him, but not man-handle him. It didn't help that Star Select HD was showing extended highlights of Fed-Sampras simultaneously. What a contrast between what 19 year old Fed could do against the then King of Grass and...ahem...Fed looked faster today than Zverev. And being honest, that wasn't a surprise. What was a surprise was how much Zverev was pressing, overhitting wildly to lose points way too soon. Even ball basher Khachanov had shown more patience yesterday. I guess only Khachanov and the elder Zverev posed problems at all to Fed. Wish Sascha could learn some of those grass court skills from his big brother.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Nope. I never let me biases get in the way of my predictions of matches. Check my history and you'll see that I was predicting Djokovic would win tons of matches when he was playing at his best. Zagor is pretty darn objective but there have been a few matches this year where his biases got in the way of him making a great prediction, i.e. Djokovic vs Nadal in Madrid 2017 for example. He was insisting Djokovic would likely come out of grave and pull off the win.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
2015 Djokovic beat 2015 Fed in 4 sets. And it was 1 tough set where Fed gave his all and 3 relatively easy sets for Djokovic, esp 3rd and 4th. So don't see a dramatic turnaround to a Fed win from there. With his fitness, 2015 Djokovic would be too strong for Fed to just wear out. He was also serving too well for Fed to just fire return winners. He would have forced Fed into long rallies just as he did back then and the result would not have been different. Rather, I would expect an even easier win for Djokovic because Fed's movement is a trifle down from 2015 even. Go back and watch that and USO 2015. Fed played really well in both matches but shots that would have been winners against other players came back off Djokovic's racquet, sometimes with interest.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
Who cares. Honestly, players never peak at Halle. The only important thing about Halle is that Federer got some match rhythm after a long lay-off. Any conclusions about his form are irrelevant, except that he'll be fine for Wimbledon.
mightyjeditribble
Hall of Fame
As a Fed fan, I think this is a bit of wishful thinking. Roger is playing pretty well this year, maybe as well as in 2014. But I'm not convinced he is better, apart from against Nadal on HC where his backhand has been doing better. Other than that, he's not had to face a peak Djokovic as he did in 2014, and maybe a few more close results have gone his way rather than the other way around.
Don't get me wrong, I am ecstatic at Fed's form, and playing at this level T this stage is amazing. But let's not get carried away. I reckon he could give peak Djokovic a match at this level and even beat him, but it's hardly a foregone conclusion.
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
We're not just talking about predictions here but okay idk. wht it's so hard to admit you can be biased as well in your evaluations. ALSO AGAIN CALLING YOURSELF THE MOST OBJECTIVE DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. 99 percent sure that claim should come from others. Also difference is zagor admits he has biases and doesn't go around proclaiming he is objective
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Oh no, I am just building on what Steve said to cc509 about this Fed beating 2015 Djokovic. No, level isn't that high...yet. Maybe it will be fine by Wimbledon, but that's maybe.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
Sartorius
Hall of Fame
Before this match Fed said it was up to him to change a few things from last year. Obviously Fed wasn't at full gear last year but Zverev still beat him in impressive fashion, there were a lot of rallies and he played a very steady match. And while today Zverev didn't seem at full gear and often missed his spots with the first serve, Fed made sure this was going to be a different affair right from the get go. No extended rallies, a lot of slice and drop shots. He executed them all, plus his serve was great and just looked sharp on his feet. Loved the break point in the second set where it looked like the first long rally of the match, then Fed made the effort to cut a slice short and passed Zverev with his forehand.
It's great that he at least bags one grass title this season considering how he started the year, sadly he doesn't have a chance to play more. I expect a good run from him at Wimbledon but it will be a lot tougher I feel, he certainly isn't a lock, and who knows what happens in the next years.
It's great that he at least bags one grass title this season considering how he started the year, sadly he doesn't have a chance to play more. I expect a good run from him at Wimbledon but it will be a lot tougher I feel, he certainly isn't a lock, and who knows what happens in the next years.
abmk
Bionic Poster
this. Zagor is far more objective than cc509 ever was or could be.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
Lol you keep referencing "oh I claimed djokovic would win when he was playing his best" is a low barometer for objectivity. Not helping your case imo.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
And,doesn't act like either which imo makes all the,difference. Shoot I like to pretendI'm, objective all the time but I know more than often I'm not.
abmk
Bionic Poster
yeah.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
I am biased like everyone else but I don't let it affect my predictions. Honestly. IMO on a grass surface the Federer we have seen this year with his improvements in his bh and ROS would likely come out on top over peak Djokovic. I was not predicting that Federer would beat Djokovic at Wimbledon in 2015 based on the form of both.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Fed followed a similar gameplan like Gasquet but executed much better. And with Zverev being pretty appalling today, it amounted to a blowout.
fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
LOL @ you of all people talking about being objective!
The only reason you are saying I'm not objective is because I like Nadal and not Djokovic and often predict correctly when Nadal will win whether it's over Djokovic or Federer!
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
But I'm not saying I don't have biases. I'm saying I don't let those biases get in the way of my predictions. Zagor is a great poster and one of the most objective ones on this forum IMO but he did let his biases get in the way of his prediction when it came to Nadal vs Djokovic in Madrid 2017 for example. I'm sure he'd be the first one to admit that.
abmk
Bionic Poster
That's funny coz' purely based on their semi performances, one would go with federer -- he played his best tennis possible( at that time) vs murray and djokovic just played well enough vs gasquet to win.
Based on overall performance at Wimbledon, one would have to go with federer as well - djokovic had a 5-set scare vs Anderson in 4th round.
federer played 3 great matches at that wimby -- demolished querrey in 2R, beat simon pretty easily in the QF and that performance vs murray in that SF. He's not yet at that level on grass this year, atleast not consistently. he played well in every match before the final at Wimby. Only the final today comes close.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Well, lucky you, this is one prediction that cannot be tested, not unless Djokovic magically rebounds to his peak in time for Wimbledon. Seriously, this is Halle, man, it's slick grass. Wimbledon will be slower, esp by the final. Conditions much more suitable for Djokovic already and plus he (as in the 2015 version) will serve and return a few times better than Z at the minimum. Will also move better than the clumsy giraffe, take drop shots off the table and force Federer into rallying.
abmk
Bionic Poster
LOL @ you of all people talking about being objective!
I didn't say I was objective. I am biased, I freely admit that. Just less than you think.
and you are far more biased than you think.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
That's my point. You think very highly of yourself in that regard zagor doesn't which is why it comes across as less annoying imo. I can agree with you on certain things but not on this.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
I am biased but I don't let it influence my predictions. Those are two different things.
JohnnyMac Fan!
Legend
You were saying?
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think highly of myself. I'm just telling you that although I'm biased (as we all are), I don't let it get in the way of my tennis predictions. If Djokovic comes back to decent form for example I will predict that he will win matches again.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
So are you saying you think that this Djokovic will do better than Federer at this Wimbledon?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Who is this Djokovic? I am talking about 2015 Djokovic and yes, sure as hell, I think he will beat 2017 Fed at Wimbledon if he beat him in 2015. Nothing has changed so dramatically in two years as to completely turn the tables on what was then a losing BO5 matchup for Fed. He's hitting the backhand better, forehand too albeit less significantly better, but movement is not as good nor is the serve. Even serve botting couldn't get it done against Djokovic because he would just keep up with him and put it past him in the tiebreak.
I agree, Nadal is the greatest clay court player of all time. But since it is clay, who cares????No need to fight over everything. Nadal's dominance at the clay-court tournaments is unprecedented, and isn't matched by Federer's on grass.
Fed has plenty of records of his own that Nadal can't reach. Surely we can acknowledge both.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm talking about the Djokovic we see "today" when I say "this" Djokovic and I don't see this Djokovic beating Federer at Wimbledon in two weeks but then again I don't see peak Djokovic beating this Federer at Wimbledon either. I think peak Djokovic would be a hell of a battle vs this Federer at Wimbledon but unlike in 2014,I don't think Federer would come up short.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
So what will be the Wimbledon seeds be after fed won Halle?
