I may have overstepped
- Thread starter nolefam_2024
- Start date
messiahrobins
Hall of Fame
Well yes perhaps i framed that wrong but he at least could regularly beat all three albeit not as often as they would beat him. . Nobody else in history could.
messiahrobins
Hall of Fame
i didnt get that far.
Rafa.the.Magnificent
G.O.A.T.
Haven't read thread in entirety, just want to say, to me Murray is the top shotmaker around, in the past and even now. I love watching him hit that damn yellow ball, such precision! Mad respect for Murray.
Apun94
Hall of Fame
Nvm, we were talking in another thread. Youre a moron who doesnt know tennis. Forget it
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
GRASScaraz
Rookie
Prime Murray wouldn't be ranked in the Top 5 rn
not even sure if he’s better than Davydenko? Slightly more consistent with a better serve but Davydenko hit a much cleaner ball. Put Davydenko in this era and he can make multiple hc slam finals and probably a rg final seeing as ruud managed it twice.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Holmes
Hall of Fame
You are fortunate to have come forth as you did, when you did. The old punishment for overstepping without admission was the removal of the foot that did the stepping. The current punishment is being banned. The punishment for overstepping and admitting is merely being trolled for the rest of your stay.
Let that be a lesson in mercy to all you youngsters.
Let that be a lesson in mercy to all you youngsters.
Phenomenal
Professional
Good quote: ) I laugh whenever i see. 'Movement to unveil the greatness of Roger'
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Lol yeah Murray equal to Agassi what BS.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Absolutely not. He is combined 5-20 against them at slams and the wins include wins against an exhausted, injured Nadal, a 5 set win against Fed in one of his worst years and two wins against an (on paper) prime Djoko who played really bad though. Murray was incredibly consistent in beating players he should beat, but his best was nothing special at all and nowhere near the big three.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Murray's best wasn't on par with peak Courier, let alone peak big 3.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
What a plot twist.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Sampras, Agassi, Lendl, Borg, McEnroe, Courier, Becker all possessed high enough levels to beat the big 3 regularly on their favored surfaces, and Murray and just about every surface.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
What do you mean by history exactly?
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Naturally of course Murray was always at his absolute best when playing against them. No excuses ever allowed for him but plenty for the 3 best players in history of course!
He still has a better record against the Big 3 than any other player and please don't bore us all by saying past players would have done better because that's just supposition and we just don't know. You can only play against the guys who can play against you.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
At slams where it counts most, Tsonga, Berdych and Wawrinka have better records against the big three. And yeah past players like Pete, Andre etc. would definitely do better that's next to certain.Naturally of course Murray was always at his absolute best when playing against them. No excuses ever allowed for him but plenty for the 3 best players in history of course!
He still has a better record against the Big 3 than any other player and please don't bore us all by saying past players would have done better because that's just supposition and we just don't know. You can only play against the guys who can play against you.
nolefam_2024
G.O.A.T.
I like a stat some YouTuber is usingNaturally of course Murray was always at his absolute best when playing against them. No excuses ever allowed for him but plenty for the 3 best players in history of course!
He still has a better record against the Big 3 than any other player and please don't bore us all by saying past players would have done better because that's just supposition and we just don't know. You can only play against the guys who can play against you.
Spw + rpw. If it's above 100 then you are top tier. Courier reached 107/08 for a couple of years. But Andy reached it for more years.
Nole has been on the list of 100+ forever ofcourse being the court. And same is true for the great Roger and even koc.
Murray returns are better than courier returns. Courier serve is better than Murray returns but he is having shorter peak.
So I do agree with you that others would have struggled vs big 3 just as well, including courier who had 1 more slam than Murray. But he probably was at that level longer than jim courier.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Oh sure because they all won Slam finals against them..........oh wait, only 1 of them did!
As for Pete and Andre etc. we can never know so your opinion is worthless.
Edit: well we do have 1 example of Pete playing rookie Fed when 7 times winner and 4 times defending champion at Wimbledon and it didn't exactly go well for Pete.
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BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Stan won even more slam finals against big three than Murray. If you believe Pete would not go better than 5-20 against the big three at slams I don't know what to tell you.Oh sure because they all won Slam finals against them..........oh wait, only 1 of them did!
As for Pete and Andre etc. we can never know so your opinion is worthless.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Not much you can tell me is there. We have Murray's overall record against the Big 3 and, in this pointless comparison, his is the only 1 that counts.
nolefam_2024
G.O.A.T.
Tsonga Berdych and Wawrinka are all 2/3 years older than Andy Murray. By the time Murray matured, Rafa stopped meeting him out of clay completely. At us open 2011, Murray was 24. Same as Tsonga at 2009 AO ( 1win vs Nadal 0 vs fedkovic in slams)
Murray and Nadal never met again outside of RG. Tsonga Berdych and Wawrinka would win 0 times vs Nadal at rg. Murray had 2 wins vs Nadal by this time already.
Federer lost vs Berdych twice but in QF. Not even in semis. He played very poorly. While he was ranked number 1. But I would even admit Federer had more troubles vs Berdych and Tsonga and Wawrinka on clay than Murray.
But not Djokovic. Berdych beat Djokovic twice at Wimbledon, both of his victories pale in comparison to Andy Murray victories. While Berdych never had another close match vs Djokovic in grand slams while Murray stretched Djokovic to five many times. Murray beat fully peaked Djokovic in slam finals no excuses. While the bird sh it got a hobbled Djokovic who quit in slam and closed the door for the end of the season, only one time in his career.
Now coming to Nadal. I would hate to say but Berdych **** the bed again against the best. Most of the times. When he retired he was on running 20+ match losing streak vs big 4 combined. And especially against Nadal , this guy needed 10+ years to launch his first victory at the slam and second time in his entire career. for shame.
Murray and Nadal never met again outside of RG. Tsonga Berdych and Wawrinka would win 0 times vs Nadal at rg. Murray had 2 wins vs Nadal by this time already.
Federer lost vs Berdych twice but in QF. Not even in semis. He played very poorly. While he was ranked number 1. But I would even admit Federer had more troubles vs Berdych and Tsonga and Wawrinka on clay than Murray.
But not Djokovic. Berdych beat Djokovic twice at Wimbledon, both of his victories pale in comparison to Andy Murray victories. While Berdych never had another close match vs Djokovic in grand slams while Murray stretched Djokovic to five many times. Murray beat fully peaked Djokovic in slam finals no excuses. While the bird sh it got a hobbled Djokovic who quit in slam and closed the door for the end of the season, only one time in his career.
Now coming to Nadal. I would hate to say but Berdych **** the bed again against the best. Most of the times. When he retired he was on running 20+ match losing streak vs big 4 combined. And especially against Nadal , this guy needed 10+ years to launch his first victory at the slam and second time in his entire career. for shame.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Great, Murray has a better record against big three than former great players who never faced them or only at the tail end of their careers. Zverev has better H2H against the big three than Murray if we wanna make pointless comparisons. The initial discussion was whether Murray's best is at the level of the big three and it isn't. Murray was pretty consistent but his peak level is not particularly high, plenty of less succesful players whose peak level is higher.
messiahrobins
Hall of Fame
In the Big 3 Era. Who else bar Murray could beat all three consistently over a period of years as Murray did? Wawrinka had a horrendous record v Fedal and Del potro an awful one v Djoker.
messiahrobins
Hall of Fame
Yes i agree but obviously that is hyothetical as they were all retired by the time the Big 3 were around
messiahrobins
Hall of Fame
Disnt tealise that stat at the slams to be fair.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Lol....Zverev does not have a better record against the Big 3. Nobody does. Murray remains the ONLY player to notch up double digit victories against Federer and Djokovic and has beaten all 3 on their favourite surfaces in big title matches including, in 1 case, multiple Slams!
Mainad
Bionic Poster
That kinda says more about you than it does him.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
This.
Unfortunately some of the haters on here (they know who they are) either wilfully or unwilfully (and ignorance is no excuse) refuse to see this for reasons which have more to do with them than any fair assessment of Murray.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
It’s over Mainad. Murray lost. He ended his career a distant 4th to the Big 3. In fact, he was so far behind them as to no longer even be in the conversation, such is the vast distance and chasm between actual ATGs and Murray. He is included out of pity. Each won 17 more Slams than him.
Accept it and move on.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yes, but you're basically restricting history to this era only. Many players in history could do better against the Big 3 than Murray.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Of course he ended up as 4th best player. Who's trying to argue otherwise? That's still no excuse for the sheer contempt and ignorance you regularly display about his career and achievements.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
But you can have no proof of that so why make statements like that if only to try and dismiss a player you plainly dislike and refuse to rate fairly?
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Zvev's overall record is better. If you restrict ot to slams, Berdych, Tsonga, and Stan are better. Yea if you completely cherry-pick and say beating all 3 on their favourite surfaces in big title matches (including Olympics and Masters) then ok, nobody is better. But well this as I say is pretty cherry-picked stat. Anywho, saying that we cannot prove that Pete would have had a better record against Big 3 than Murray is like saying we cannot prove Nadal would have won even one FO in the 90s, factually correct, but completely absurd to assume otherwise.
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
I've seen Stan do just as well, so I'm pretty confident many players from the past could do better.
messiahrobins
Hall of Fame
I was meaning though actual matches that happened.
I agree with the wider point and think it is too simplistic to call any of the Big 3 as GOAT as i dont think in the 90s they get close to 20 Majors
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
The excellent Murray gif seems to have been deleted. Still got this one though.
Still got this one though.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
You've seen Stan do just as well at the Slams but, unlike Murray, not in anything else and any comparisons with players from other eras is just pointless because you can never match players who only played in different eras.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
And that is extremely relevant since that's where Murray hasn't been able to do better against the Big 3.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
But there are other things besides the Slams including other big titles (WTF, Olympics, Masters etc.) and the #1 ranking of course, none of which Wawrinka achieved (except 1 Masters) but Murray did. Slams are the most important things in tennis but they are not all there is in tennis otherwise you could argue that Gaston Gaudio is just as good as Sinner.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Nobody here denies that Murray is better than Wawrinka or that he is fourth best of that era. What was however claimed is that he is on the level of Agassi or at his best on the level of the big three. This is where people disagree.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Murray's best slam win vs the Big 3 was Nadal at the USO 2008. He never managed to surpass that.
After that, he lost surprisingly easily to Nadal at slams like Wimbledon 2010 and 2011, USO 2011, etc. His other win came against a hampered Nadal at the AO. And against Federer, he always did terribly, even when he was doing well Bo3.
He did better vs Djokovic but that USO match in the hurricane was a ****fest, his more impressive victory was the Wimbledon 2013, although Djokovic was playing terribly, Murray played great and it wasn't his fault Djokovic didn't show up. But then in 2014-2016 he was poor vs Djokovic too.
nolefam_2024
G.O.A.T.
I guess we can say whatever. Subjectively.
But it won't make it true right?
Murray beating Djokovic in wimbledon is his biggest win. Wimbledon final vs world number 1. Vs some semis vs another world number 1 but who has never reached hc slam final.
