Again, the open era does NOT apply to women's tennis, as there was no women's pro tour so that ALL top female players competed in all sanctioned tournaments and slams before 1968. Therefore, in an era of very tough competition, Court won the most slams, most tournaments, and had the highest winning % post 1960. She also won many doubles and mixed doubles in an era when most of the best singles players also competed in doubles. Also, she has the most combined slam wins of any other player, including Navratilova. IMO Court, Evert, Graf, Navratilova and Serena are the tier one ATG players post 1960.
In my opinion Martina Navratilova is the GOAT
- Thread starter prairiegirl
- Start date
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
In my opinion
Otacon
Hall of Fame
In Steffi's era, women's tennis was more fun than the men's, it's just a shame a psychopath deprived us from one of the greatest rivalries ever.In my opinion
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Yeah, one of the great sporting tragedies with Monica Seles. I watched a bit of female tennis back in the 90s, Steffi dominating is what I remember.
Otacon
Hall of Fame
She was the Federer of her time, and the one who really made me like tennis. So I don't quite understand why she's like totally off the radar. She is one of the best-known and most popular sportswomen in the world, I would have liked to see her more often in the media as the selfish fan I am.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Cause 23>18.
And Grand Slams in doubles are not so relevant as GS in singles.
John McEnrore has 7 GS in singles + 9 GS in doubles for a total of 16 GS. Yet almost no one puts him equal or higher in the ATG list than Nadal, Sampras or Djokovic.
I do not know what you are smoking but this list makes absolutely no sense especially that steffi martina and evert are in each other's competition whether you like to admit it or not, and Venus Hingis, Davenport Capriati and Serena were also competition for steffi. steffi serena martina and chrissy all have cases to be goats so no need to tailor create lists that suit your favorite to make them seem better.
Even if you add navratilova or evert in their tally, they still fall short.
Venus Hingis, Capriati and Serena were all teenagers when they played steffi.
I made that that list to defend serena against those who said she had weak competition.
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
Serena's competition FROM 2012 ONWARD has been brutally bad.
Which is why when you match up Serena and Steffi age for age Steffi blows her out.
No one is saying Serena had zero competition in the early aughts.
thats rich coming from you . Serena'd greatness in unquestionable unlike graf.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Figures don't lie, but liars figure
Just answer me, if you are Federer, would you want to face Nadal or (Roddick + Hewitt + ...) x 2?
It's close.
Roddick + Hewitt playing together might just push Nadal playing on his own to 5 sets at Roland Garros.
lololol where is the rule that you have to win slams by a certain age ?
serena competition from 2012 :
Azarenka : 2 slams
Meldoniumpova : 2 slams
kerber : 2 slams
muguruza : 2 slams
that lot is infinitely better than what graf faced post seles stabbing with asv, martinez and pierce
It's called recency bias
Serena is only 1 slam ahead of Graf, but she's vastly inferior in other major stats.
Most GS finals
Rank Name Total
1 Chris Evert 34
2 Martina Navrátilová 32
3 Steffi Graf 31
4 Serena Williams 29
5 Evonne Goolagong 18
6 Venus Williams 14
7 Monica Seles 13
8 Margaret Court 12
8 Martina Hingis 12
8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12
Consecutive GS finals
1. Steffi Graf 13
2. Martina Navratilova 11
3. Margaret Court 6
3. Chris Evert 6
3. Monica Seles 6
6. Steffi Graf 5
6. Martina Hingis 5
8. Martina Navratilova 4
8. Chris Evert 4
8. Arantxa Sánchez 4
8. Serena Williams 4
8. Venus Williams 4
8. Justine Henin 4
Most single titles
Rank Player Singles
1 Martina Navratilova 167
2 Chris Evert 157
3 Steffi Graf 107
4 Margaret Court 101
5 Serena Williams 72
6 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
7 Billie Jean King 67
8 Virginia Wade 55
= Lindsay Davenport 55
10 Monica Seles 53
Most weeks at #1
Rank Player weeks
1 Steffi Graf 377
2 Martina Navratilova 332
3 Serena Williams 319
4 Chris Evert 260
5 Martina Hingis 209
6 Monica Seles 178
7 Justine Henin 117
8 Lindsay Davenport 98
9 Caroline Wozniacki 67
10 Victoria Azarenka 51
Consecutive weeks at #1
1 Steffi Graf 186
= Serena Williams 186
3 Martina Navratilova 156
4 Chris Evert 113
5 Monica Seles 91
6 Martina Navratilova 90
7 Steffi Graf 87
8 Martina Hingis 80
9 Chris Evert 76
10 Martina Hingis 73
Year end No. 1 players
player year
1 Steffi Graf 8
2 Martina Navratilova 7
3 Chris Evert 5
= Serena Williams 5
5 Lindsay Davenport 4
6 Justine Henin 3
6 Martina Hingis 3
6 Monica Seles 3
9 Caroline Wozniacki 2
10 Jelena Jankovic 1
10 Victoria Azarenka 1
Year-End Championships
1. Martina Navratilova 8
2. Steffi Graf 5
= Serena Williams 5
4. Chris Evert 4
5. Monica Seles 3
6. Kim Clijsters 3
7. Gabriela Sabatini 2
8. Martina Hingis 2
9. Evonne Goolagong Cawley 2
10. Justine Henin 2
All surface single winning percentage
Rank Player Wins-Losses Win %
1 Margaret Court 593-56 91.37
2 Chris Evert 1304-144 90.05
3 Steffi Graf 900-115 88.67
4 Martina Navratilova 1442-219 86.82
5 Serena Williams* 785-132 85.61
6 Monica Seles 595-122 82.98
7 Justine Henin 525-115 82.03
8 Billie Jean King 695-155 81.76
9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704-165 81.01
Most singles matches won
Player Wins
1 Martina Navratilova 1442
2 Chris Evert 1304
3 Steffi Graf 900
4 Virginia Wade 839
5 Serena Williams 785
6 Venus Williams 763
7 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
8 Lindsay Davenport 753
9 Conchita Martínez 739
10 Evonne Goolagong 704
Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
Rank Player Matches
1 Martina Navratilova 74
2 Steffi Graf 66
3 Martina Navratilova 58
4 Margaret Court 57
5 Chris Evert 55
6 Martina Navratilova 54
7 Steffi Graf 46
8 Steffi Graf 45
9 Steffi Graf 44
10 Martina Navratilova 41
Most consecutive singles titles
1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Serena Williams 95.1
10 Chris Evert 94.9
Winning Streaks
1. Martina Navratilova 74
2. Steffi Graf 66
3. Martina Navratilova 58
4. Chris Evert 56
5. Martina Navratilova 54
6. Steffi Graf 46
7. Steffi Graf 45
8. Martina Navratilova 41
9. Martina Navratilova 39
10. Martina Navratilova 38
Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
4. 11 - Sharapova (2003-2013)
4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
7. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
7. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
7. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
7. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
7. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)
Most singles titles won in a year
1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
12. 12 - Martina Hingis (1997)
16. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
16. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
16. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
16. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
16. 11 - Serena Williams (2013)
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
Agreed. She's also 1 major ahead of Graf with TWELVE more majors played. Consider also that Graf's last two majors were a win and a runner up.
Again, if you think Serena is the GOAT you (a) think majors is the end all be all (which is odd considering Court has 24 and Evert has 18 while barely playing the AO and skipping RG 3x in her prime for WTT money), and (b) put a ton of weight on hanging around in a weak era vulturing majors.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Sorry, a woman can’t be GOAT.
The women’s field never had, never will, the depth that the men’s does.
The dubs, mixed titles she racked up proves my point: the singles tournament had to be very weak to let her play 2 extra events at the same time.
The women’s field never had, never will, the depth that the men’s does.
The dubs, mixed titles she racked up proves my point: the singles tournament had to be very weak to let her play 2 extra events at the same time.
Tristanwirtz
New User
She isn't mine. I dont even have her top 3. I have Serena as clear #1, Court and Graf very close for #2. I am not even sure if she should be the top of her own era over Evert. Had everyone played the Aussie and French in the 70s Chris would have 24 or 25 majors and Martina only 18 or 19 still. Chris also lost a ton of additional slams to peak martina while Martina only lost out on 2 or 3 slams due to Chris. All things considered I probably have Chris over Martina as well, and even Chris is not top 3.
As for competition arguments dont make me laugh. 82-86 when martina won almost all her slams was the worst and most depth-less field ever. Shriver was often ranked 3rd. A past her prime Chris, a slumping Hana, Tracy Austin done. Besides Chris who was in her poorest form ever in 82-83 and in her 303 thereafter who was there. Shriver, Turnbull also in her 30s, bunge. What a joke. Even the Graf post stabbing field looks strong in comparision. And just look at the pitiful 1983 slam finals to sum up that era at the apex of its pitifulness.
As for competition arguments dont make me laugh. 82-86 when martina won almost all her slams was the worst and most depth-less field ever. Shriver was often ranked 3rd. A past her prime Chris, a slumping Hana, Tracy Austin done. Besides Chris who was in her poorest form ever in 82-83 and in her 303 thereafter who was there. Shriver, Turnbull also in her 30s, bunge. What a joke. Even the Graf post stabbing field looks strong in comparision. And just look at the pitiful 1983 slam finals to sum up that era at the apex of its pitifulness.
Tristanwirtz
New User
Graf would not have 22 slams without the stabbing but she still might have 18 or more. And without the Seles stabbing her competition dwarves martina and chris assuming sales is a 15+ slam winner.
C
Chadillac
Guest
How many people ranking serena number 1 play tennis above a 3.0 lvl? I dont think they know what they are watching
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
No one ever brings doubles into the equation, except for Navratilova. (Even when Court has a superior record to her counting doubles as well)
I bet these same people don’t compile their whole top 10 list combining singles and doubles achievements. They’ll rank Nos 2-10 purely on singles achievements, then miraculously bring doubles into it for Nav.
Such is fanboy/fangirlism.
Tristanwirtz
New User
Evert herself ranks Serena #1. So does Graf. So does Shriver (you know the 3rd best player of most of the strong Martina era, LoL). So do most of Serena's contemporaries. Maybe what you meant is only people who don't play tennis above a 3.0 level think s Serena is not the GOAT. On that you are probably correct, along with a couple bitter cows like martina who will never accept anyone but herself as GOAT.
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
What's someone like Evert or Graf supposed to say? "Nah I'm the best ever"
It's a no-win situation as a former player.
Fans can objectively evaluate. Serena is an all-time great but she has clearly hung around for a long time into a weak era.
Again, based on resumes, if you rank Serena ahead of Steffi you put a LOT of weight on what Serena did at 33+, since matching them up to that point Graf not only beats her in the majors (both wins and finals) but in almost all other categories.
So if Serena's 2015 RG against Errani, Timea and Sfarova, or Serena's 2016 W against Pavlychenkova, unseeded Vesnina and Kerber (who has done squat on tour outisde of one outlier season), or Serena's 2017 AO against Lucic and ancient Venus are enough to move the needle for you to put Serena ahead of Graf, nothing I'm going to say is going to convince you otherwise.
And even given that, Graf STILL beats her in most other categories.
Tristanwirtz
New User
Graf had her biggest rival stabbed and STILL has less slams than Serena. She is lucky to be ranked 2nd behind Serena by most. Serena may not have the best field today but at one point she had venus, henin, hingis, davenport, sharapova, clijsters, capriati all near their best. Graf's biggest career rival is Sanchez Vicario, LOL!
And of course Serena gets a lot of credit over everyone else for what she is doing in her 30s. Nobody else has even come close to it. What do you expect, it to be ignored. No women in history would have achieved what Serena did in her 30s vs any field, that is abundantly clear and a testament to Serena's ability.
Man of steel
Hall of Fame
And who the hell puts any weight on what graf did after the Seles stabbing. She gained weeks at number 1 and numerous slam titles because the best player at the time was taken out of the game for over 2 bloody years.
Serena didn't "hang" around any weak era. She proved herself to be the best player from 00's to 2010 and 2010-now. Graf only did that post peak navratilova - pre seles stabbing. She never asserted her dominance over peak Seles. She had the fortune of having a deranged lunatic (like some trolls in the thread) who took her out of the competition and paved her way back to the spot.
C
Chadillac
Guest
Martina has won twice as many matches and tournaments as serena.
Did chrissy, graf or shriver give a reason why serena is the goat?
Do you have the quote where steffi said serena is the greatest?
17 tues seem to help longevity
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Most former greats get on with their lives, and even if they consider themselves to truly be the greatest, they realise that the sport of tennis is bigger than them - so they'll never continue to brag about their superiority over the current dominator.
Only Navratilova continues to laud her superiority over the greats who came after her.
Sad really.
TennisLBC
Professional
But people hold Steffi Graf over Martina. Were those people wrong, all those years?
Man of steel
Hall of Fame
In my opinion
Better six pack
Better flexibility
Yeah, and Murray is the goat because of the six pack.
C
Chadillac
Guest
Laver is the king of this, if you listen to him talk you would of thought he was a 4.0
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Never understood this 4.0 thing - presumably an American college ranking of how good you are at tennis?
Man of steel
Hall of Fame
Please dont use Seles in H2h post stabbing, makes you look like an idiot
C
Chadillac
Guest
Utr where you from (probably).
Its a tennis rating system, 1.0-7.0. 4.0 is a decent club player
Because you used six pack to say Serena > Graf. What a stupid analogy.Because murray is even considered a GOAT candidate in the first place
What a stupid analogy
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
After almost 31 years of age, Serena won 10 of the next 17 majors
Deon Sanders
Legend
Plus she never threatened the life of an official!
Not even once!
Not even once!
One of the criteria for greatness is longevity not everyone is lucky like graf to take advantage of a weak 10 year period where her competition were 32+ grandmas and prebuscent teenagers. The only competition got stabbed and she was left battling mental midgets like novotna and sabatini
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Graf is the most overrated women's tennis player of all time. She was an awesome player, no doubt, and won the Golden Gram Slam in 1988 until someone better came along. Her name was Monica Seles. Seles dominated and won 3 Slams in '91 and '92 and 7 out of 9 Slams in Graf's prime before her career was ruined by a maniac. She should have been the one who was the greatest from that era with no doubt whatsoever. When Seles was taken out, Graf ran rampant on a bunch of nobody's except for Sanchez Vicario, Novotna and Sabatini who still weren't really a threat to her mostly and racked up the majors. Therefore, there is always going to be doubt when it comes to her.
So I would actually rate Navratilova over her any day of the week and of course Serena. They beat everybody that stood in their way prime for prime and still dominated. Both also had much tougher opposition than Graf did.
So I would actually rate Navratilova over her any day of the week and of course Serena. They beat everybody that stood in their way prime for prime and still dominated. Both also had much tougher opposition than Graf did.
Man of steel
Hall of Fame
Tristanwirtz
New User
My top 10 women all time are:
1. Serena
2. Court
3. Graf
4. Wills Moody (maybe Wills Moody #3 and Graf #4 though, they are almost a dead tie for me)
5. Evert
6. Lenglen
7. Navratilova
8. Connolly
9. King
10. Venus or Henin
honorable mentions: Seles, Bentz, Mallorey, Gibson, maybe Gibson should be #10 given all the racism she overcame and her impact on the game.
Most people have it:
1. Serena
2. Graf
3. Navratilova
4. Court
5. Evert
6. King
7. Venus
8. Seles
9. Henin
10. Hingis
But that is because nobody even acknowledges pre Open Era players anymore. Court and Evert are also underrated since Court has avoided tennis and is a hated homophobic, while Evert purposely downplays herself constantly to the media. Navratilova by contrast is overrated since she builds herself up constantly to the press. Outside of Wimbledon where she is probably the female GOAT still she isn't even close to the GOAT in reality. And Graf would have clearly supplanted her at Wimbledon with 9-10 titles without injuries wrecking her end career, stabbing or no stabbing as Seles is immaterial to Graf at Wimbledon; and either Williams too had they not had to deal with each other and a way tougher grass field (both Williams, Sharapova, Davenport, Mauresmo, Hingis, Henin) than Navratilova or Graf had and either Williams >>>>> Chris Evert on grass who was Martina's only competition there.
That would also be my final point to the very few dumb enough to think Navratilova could ever be over Serena, which is based on nothing more than her playing Evert (who btw Martina claims was easier for her to play at her peak than Mandlikova or Helena Sukova, let alone baby Graf, due to her playing style fitting easily into peak Martina's game, her exact words). The only place Navratilova is above Serena is Wimbledon, nowhere else, she is even behind her at Roland Garros which is by far Serena's weak slam. As for the regular tour Serena has the most Premier equivalent and Tier 1 equivalent and Premier Mandatory equivalent titles of any player in history, the only tournaments that matter, not the tiny tier 3 and tier 4s that sometimes then you only had to win 3 matches which nobody cares about. And at Wimbledon "Evert" most certainly can not be applied to "tougher competition" compared to Serena as already noted Venus obviously >>>> Chris Evert on grass (and I am prepared to laugh loudly in the face of anyone who even dares try to dispute that), and that is Serena's biggest competition on grass. Without Venus, Serena has 9 Wimbledon titles, same as Martina still has without Chris. And a light years tougher field beyond that with Sharapova, Davenport, Mauresmo, Hingis, Henin, Bartoli, and many others vs Martina who only faced Chris, Hana (who underperformed at Wimbledon), Sukova (who never even made it past the Wimbledon quarters), and Shriver. Austin and Jaeger both sucked giant balls on grass, during their brief time in the spotlight before their teenaged retirements, as did Maleeva sisters, Bassett, Bunge, Rinaldi, and the few remaining players who could even qualify as legit top players in the early to mid 80s. All a bunch of clay/hard court style baseliners who hit with excess topspin, usually with two handed backhands and no usable slice backhand, total adversion to the net, and with weak serves, which frankly even Chris was, but was still a great grass player just because she is the great Chris Evert. So even the thin argument of Martina arguably having tougher competition due to Chris goes out the window altogether now, as that doesn't apply in any small capacity to Wimbledon, the only place Serena doesn't have clearly superior record to begin with. In fact with half of Martina's 18 slams coming at Wimbledon, with 2/3 of them coming at Wimbledon and the Australian Open on grass, and with 75% of her major titles coming at Wimbledon/Australian Open (grass then), and the YES on carpet, with Chris probably an inferior carpet player to Serena, Davenport, Hingis, and maybe even Venus and Henin; while 40% of Serena's slams come at Wimbledon on grass; the competition argument for Navratilova which is based ONLY on Evert, and nothing else is even nullified completely. As over a cumulative 50% of the major titles for both are on grass (carpet) due to Navratilova being so heavily reliant on grass, and it has already been established Evert is clearly inferior to Venus Williams on grass. Then specifically adding the U.S Open where Navratilova won another 4 of her slams, bringing her to 16 of 18, and Serena another 6 of hers, bringing her to 13 of her 18, you have Clijsters who has won 3 U.S Opens on decoturf, the exact same number as Evert did in 12 years playing the Open on decoturf as opposed to the 7 or 8 for Clijsters, and Venus, Daveport, and Henin, who are all also arguably close to equal to Evert on the specific surface of fast hard court/faster decoturf, except there are a bunch of them as opposed to just one. And breaking down by specific surfaces we have already covered the majority of slams for both women, and almost all of Navratilova's. So the Evert argument can even now be fully put to bed, good luck to you now.
1. Serena
2. Court
3. Graf
4. Wills Moody (maybe Wills Moody #3 and Graf #4 though, they are almost a dead tie for me)
5. Evert
6. Lenglen
7. Navratilova
8. Connolly
9. King
10. Venus or Henin
honorable mentions: Seles, Bentz, Mallorey, Gibson, maybe Gibson should be #10 given all the racism she overcame and her impact on the game.
Most people have it:
1. Serena
2. Graf
3. Navratilova
4. Court
5. Evert
6. King
7. Venus
8. Seles
9. Henin
10. Hingis
But that is because nobody even acknowledges pre Open Era players anymore. Court and Evert are also underrated since Court has avoided tennis and is a hated homophobic, while Evert purposely downplays herself constantly to the media. Navratilova by contrast is overrated since she builds herself up constantly to the press. Outside of Wimbledon where she is probably the female GOAT still she isn't even close to the GOAT in reality. And Graf would have clearly supplanted her at Wimbledon with 9-10 titles without injuries wrecking her end career, stabbing or no stabbing as Seles is immaterial to Graf at Wimbledon; and either Williams too had they not had to deal with each other and a way tougher grass field (both Williams, Sharapova, Davenport, Mauresmo, Hingis, Henin) than Navratilova or Graf had and either Williams >>>>> Chris Evert on grass who was Martina's only competition there.
That would also be my final point to the very few dumb enough to think Navratilova could ever be over Serena, which is based on nothing more than her playing Evert (who btw Martina claims was easier for her to play at her peak than Mandlikova or Helena Sukova, let alone baby Graf, due to her playing style fitting easily into peak Martina's game, her exact words). The only place Navratilova is above Serena is Wimbledon, nowhere else, she is even behind her at Roland Garros which is by far Serena's weak slam. As for the regular tour Serena has the most Premier equivalent and Tier 1 equivalent and Premier Mandatory equivalent titles of any player in history, the only tournaments that matter, not the tiny tier 3 and tier 4s that sometimes then you only had to win 3 matches which nobody cares about. And at Wimbledon "Evert" most certainly can not be applied to "tougher competition" compared to Serena as already noted Venus obviously >>>> Chris Evert on grass (and I am prepared to laugh loudly in the face of anyone who even dares try to dispute that), and that is Serena's biggest competition on grass. Without Venus, Serena has 9 Wimbledon titles, same as Martina still has without Chris. And a light years tougher field beyond that with Sharapova, Davenport, Mauresmo, Hingis, Henin, Bartoli, and many others vs Martina who only faced Chris, Hana (who underperformed at Wimbledon), Sukova (who never even made it past the Wimbledon quarters), and Shriver. Austin and Jaeger both sucked giant balls on grass, during their brief time in the spotlight before their teenaged retirements, as did Maleeva sisters, Bassett, Bunge, Rinaldi, and the few remaining players who could even qualify as legit top players in the early to mid 80s. All a bunch of clay/hard court style baseliners who hit with excess topspin, usually with two handed backhands and no usable slice backhand, total adversion to the net, and with weak serves, which frankly even Chris was, but was still a great grass player just because she is the great Chris Evert. So even the thin argument of Martina arguably having tougher competition due to Chris goes out the window altogether now, as that doesn't apply in any small capacity to Wimbledon, the only place Serena doesn't have clearly superior record to begin with. In fact with half of Martina's 18 slams coming at Wimbledon, with 2/3 of them coming at Wimbledon and the Australian Open on grass, and with 75% of her major titles coming at Wimbledon/Australian Open (grass then), and the YES on carpet, with Chris probably an inferior carpet player to Serena, Davenport, Hingis, and maybe even Venus and Henin; while 40% of Serena's slams come at Wimbledon on grass; the competition argument for Navratilova which is based ONLY on Evert, and nothing else is even nullified completely. As over a cumulative 50% of the major titles for both are on grass (carpet) due to Navratilova being so heavily reliant on grass, and it has already been established Evert is clearly inferior to Venus Williams on grass. Then specifically adding the U.S Open where Navratilova won another 4 of her slams, bringing her to 16 of 18, and Serena another 6 of hers, bringing her to 13 of her 18, you have Clijsters who has won 3 U.S Opens on decoturf, the exact same number as Evert did in 12 years playing the Open on decoturf as opposed to the 7 or 8 for Clijsters, and Venus, Daveport, and Henin, who are all also arguably close to equal to Evert on the specific surface of fast hard court/faster decoturf, except there are a bunch of them as opposed to just one. And breaking down by specific surfaces we have already covered the majority of slams for both women, and almost all of Navratilova's. So the Evert argument can even now be fully put to bed, good luck to you now.
Last edited:
TahoeTennis
Legend
Unlike yourself, who never will play against, or with women.
I think Wills played 21 slams and won 19. Pre 1968 records should count as Women's tennis was always open to ALL top players who wanted to compete. It is really difficult to rank players from distant era's. As for Martina VS Evert, it is not Martina's fault that 2 slams were on grass for much of her prime years or that many tournaments were on carpet. Great players adjust their games to various court surfaces. The USO was on green clay for three years that helped the Evert slam count. The Court-King era about 1960-75, with Court being the #1 of that era. Then came the Evert-Navratilova era, with Martina slightly above Evert. Then the Graf-Seles era which was somewhat ruined with the Seles stabbing. There was a few year interval between the Graf-Seles before the Williams-Belgians era from 00-08, in which Serena was the overwhelming #1. Therefore, the dominant players of these various eras are: Court, Navratilova, Graf, and Serena who are the tier one ATG post 1960. Tier 2 would be: King, Seles, Bueno, Henin and Venus. Tier 3- Sharapova, Hingis, Clijsters and Davenport.
I think the way Martina is regarded is a great example of the media propping up Serena. They make a big deal about the "Serena Slam." It's actually in her freaking Wikipedia page. Meanwhile, Martina won six in a row from 83 Wimbledon through 84 U.S. Open, but no one talks about a "Martina Slam."
Tristanwirtz
New User
I 100% agree about the Serena slam. It is a stupid and meaningless title. However I don't think it is relevant to Serena's GOAT standing either. For instance I don't think there is a single person who does consider Serena the GOAT who list the Serena Slam as a major reason at all.
I think Martina winning 6 in a row should be recognized (Court also did and hers included a Calendar Slam, while Steffi was 1 game from winning 9 in a row) it should not equal a true Grand Slam. Nor Serena's Serena slam or any non Calendar Slam. Since completing the Grand Slam is not just about physical ability but mental pressure. That is why Serena and Martina played such mediocre to poor matches in the 84 Australian Open and 2016 U.S Open semis respectively. Had they not been aiming for the Grand Slam you likely do not see those same lackluster matches in the same match. Court, Graf, and Connolly deserve credit for passing that mental barrier the others couldn't, as well as Laver.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
I googled, and that would be a doe.
70後
Hall of Fame
speaking of competition, GOAT Navratilova also goatly avoided the first half of the year after 1989. This is not often included in the discussion.
70後
Hall of Fame
And what does that have to do with tennis?
70後
Hall of Fame
What an insult to Federer. I hope you are not a Federer fan.
70後
Hall of Fame
The poster made a fair list. If you say Serena was competition for Graf, it follows that Graf was also competition for Serena. That poster isn't claiming that.
Similar threads
