"My arm is a whip, and the shoulder cracks it."
- Thread starter Kobble
- Start date
H
Hedges
Guest
I can't believe Roddick allowed them to do this:
http://www.tmz.com/2007/05/18/did-mens-fitness-pump-up-andy-roddick/
http://www.tmz.com/2007/05/18/did-mens-fitness-pump-up-andy-roddick/
Roddick's vertical setup is designed to optimally load energy into his shoulder rotation.
1) The height of his setup establishes how deep his shoulder turn will be. He always gets a deep shoulder turn.
2) Having the racquet tip point down is the equivalent of pointing your racquet tip forward in a normal takeback. In other words, by keeping your thumb pointing toward the opponent, you make sure the rotation remains internal through the entire backswing.
3) Using gravity to turn your shoulder means your backswing is more relaxed than a normal takeback. That translates to more shoulder power in the forward swing.
Tricky, could you explain #2 a little more? I don't really understand what you're trying to impart...Thanks!
Yeah, this is something I've been reading about lately, and it's lately changed my views on FH mechanics.
There's basically two kinds of kinetic chain with the arm that can be used with the FH, pressing and pulling. The pressing kinetic chain -- which is what I think easitennis promotes -- generates more native power/pace, but the pulling kinetic chain -- the more traditional WW style -- generates more natural spin, arguably a heavier ball.
There's interesting arguments to be made in favor of both styles. For example, many of the women power players use a "pressing" forehand, which is why they can hit really hard for their body, yet often have balls sail long. Whereas almost all the ATP pros use a "pulling" forehand for a heavier ball, which manifests in the big wiping motions you see.
The key thing is that you want your backswing to match the chain. If you use a backswing that is intended for pressing, but try pulling in the forward swing, you get no power. If you try vice versa, you also get no power. Also the swing will be very awkward.
How is this determined? By where the racquet tip points in the backswing. If the racquet tip is pointed slightly toward the net, then the backswing is designed for pulling. If the racquet tip is perfectly straight up or slightly toward the back fence, then the backswing is designed for pressing. Specifically, it's about the angle made between your thumb and the left side of your wrist. If the angle is "in" or less than 90s, then you're using the pulling chain. If the angle is "stretched" or more than 90s, then you're using the pressing chain.
The key is to maintain this orientation through the entire backswing until your shoulder initiates. If you're pulling, you want to initiate the shoulder forward before you set up the butt cap. If you're doing this correctly, then you want to pull in a slight diagonal toward your finish.
What happens with most people, though, is that they don't keep the orientation in their backswing. Initially in the unit turn, their racquet tip is pointing forward. Their backswing is set up for a pulling swing. Then as they take the racquet back, the racquet tip starts falling backwards until the thumb-wrist line is "stretched." Now, their backswing is set up for a pressing swing. Many people start setting up their butt cap before the shoulder initiates the forward swing. In doing this, they change the orientation of their backswing at the last minute.
The problem there is that, switching chains in your backswing robs the power you're stored in your backswing. And as a result, you start arming the ball or using wrist to compensate. In other words, you want to keep the racquet tip forward until you're ready to pull. You want to keep the racquet tip back if you want to press.
Roddick has a unique setup position. So, in order to keep his thumb-wrist line "in", he initially points his racquet tip down. As he lets the racquet drop, he keeps that thumb-wrist angle "in" (so his racquet tip always points toward the net rather than the side fence) until he is ready to initiate the shoulder and swing forward.
His shoulder rotation thus is preserved, and he can pull with the full power given by the unique takeback. This is an esoteric subject, but it's really interesting.
There's basically two kinds of kinetic chain with the arm that can be used with the FH, pressing and pulling. The pressing kinetic chain -- which is what I think easitennis promotes -- generates more native power/pace, but the pulling kinetic chain -- the more traditional WW style -- generates more natural spin, arguably a heavier ball.
There's interesting arguments to be made in favor of both styles. For example, many of the women power players use a "pressing" forehand, which is why they can hit really hard for their body, yet often have balls sail long. Whereas almost all the ATP pros use a "pulling" forehand for a heavier ball, which manifests in the big wiping motions you see.
The key thing is that you want your backswing to match the chain. If you use a backswing that is intended for pressing, but try pulling in the forward swing, you get no power. If you try vice versa, you also get no power. Also the swing will be very awkward.
How is this determined? By where the racquet tip points in the backswing. If the racquet tip is pointed slightly toward the net, then the backswing is designed for pulling. If the racquet tip is perfectly straight up or slightly toward the back fence, then the backswing is designed for pressing. Specifically, it's about the angle made between your thumb and the left side of your wrist. If the angle is "in" or less than 90s, then you're using the pulling chain. If the angle is "stretched" or more than 90s, then you're using the pressing chain.
The key is to maintain this orientation through the entire backswing until your shoulder initiates. If you're pulling, you want to initiate the shoulder forward before you set up the butt cap. If you're doing this correctly, then you want to pull in a slight diagonal toward your finish.
What happens with most people, though, is that they don't keep the orientation in their backswing. Initially in the unit turn, their racquet tip is pointing forward. Their backswing is set up for a pulling swing. Then as they take the racquet back, the racquet tip starts falling backwards until the thumb-wrist line is "stretched." Now, their backswing is set up for a pressing swing. Many people start setting up their butt cap before the shoulder initiates the forward swing. In doing this, they change the orientation of their backswing at the last minute.
The problem there is that, switching chains in your backswing robs the power you're stored in your backswing. And as a result, you start arming the ball or using wrist to compensate. In other words, you want to keep the racquet tip forward until you're ready to pull. You want to keep the racquet tip back if you want to press.
Roddick has a unique setup position. So, in order to keep his thumb-wrist line "in", he initially points his racquet tip down. As he lets the racquet drop, he keeps that thumb-wrist angle "in" (so his racquet tip always points toward the net rather than the side fence) until he is ready to initiate the shoulder and swing forward.
His shoulder rotation thus is preserved, and he can pull with the full power given by the unique takeback. This is an esoteric subject, but it's really interesting.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
When I see people say stuff like this about Roddick or Nadal, I wonder what they think of themselves, and the rest of the tennis playing world.
No serious player would talk down about another pro, because they understand the countless hours of hard work put in. I mean, most recreational players can not even comprehend the amount of effort that I put into tennis, and I have to fix cars for a living. How can you say someone who is good enough to fly around the world playing tournaments sucks, even if they are 1000 in the world?
J
35ft6
Legend
Interesting. I've noticed something else, too, though, and I'm not so sure if there's a correlation between IT and the direction your racket is facing on the backswing, although I agree mostly with what you said. I'm talking about how closed the racket face is at that transitional stage when backswing becomes a forward swing. Guys who have a completely closed racket face seem to be able to generate a lot more consistent power than guys who have a more open racket face, probably due to being able to pronate the wrist/forearm from that position through the forehand in much the same way you must pronate to generate power on a serve. Some guys have the racket face so closed that the hitting side of the string bed is almost facing behind them, and I'm not so sure if what you talked about, the direction of the racket tip during the backswing, limits or influences this particular feature.
35ft6
Legend
Yeah, these same people will praise the skillz of the local tennis stud but totally rip apart a guy who can beat said local stud 0 and 0 in about 20 minutes.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Hey, I could hang with Roddick for more than 20 mins. I would just bounce the ball a bunch of times between serves, and do lots of toweling off, string straightening, and shoe re-tying between points.
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
On a waist high rally forehand for me, takeback is between jaw and eye high, at the end of my takeback, just before the down/forward swing (My swing is fluid, with no steps, but I am talking about the point in it where the racquet stops going up and back, and starts going down and forward) the hitting face of the stringbed is facing the back fence about head high or a bit higher. At its most extreme the hitting face of the stringbed is paralell to my back, facing straight behind me. In the forward swing when my hand is even with my right hip the hitting face of the stringbed faces straight down, almost paralell to the ground, goes paralell to the ground as my hand is 6"-8" in front of my hip, and is square to the ball a good two feet in front of me.
That is on a heavy topspin rally groundstroke.
When I want to flatten out an eye high ball for one of my 100+mph cross-court forehand (usually winners) The hitting face still faces the back fence, almost paralell to it, but I bring the hitting face around to face the ball much sooner, and swing about straight through it, but still hit the ball way out in front of me.
Dunno if that helps anything, but thats just me. Maybe I am not the person to emulate however, as I do have to fix cars for a living
J
It can. If you keep your racquet tip forward until you pull, the back-to-forward transition will cause the forearm to passively supinate in order to establish the butt cap position. That a facilitates a SRC/SSC, so that the forearm pronates quickly through the stroke, letting you wipe quickly. When somebody's backswing is wrong, they lose this SSC and thus will "bicep" the racquet in order to produce the wiping finish.
When you see somebody's racquet face behind them, it's usually because they reversed their racquet in the unit turn, while keepign the tip forward. In reversing the racquet, the forearm is pronated almost 90 degrees more than a normal position, and the wrist is laid back. In doing this, the SRC increases and thus causes the forearm to wipe more harder and harder. You get more spin. And reversal racquet also lengthens the effective pull-line you have toward ball, as if your arms were extended. Therefore, you get more pace. For that reason, reversing the racquet leads to a heavier ball, and a way of using more conservative grips for spin.
It's especially important to keep racquet tip forward when reversing the racquet, because initially the thumb angle will be a little stretched (thus initially in a pressing movement.) When this is done, the racquet face will point more toward to the back initially.
tricky, can you post an example of a forehand backswing that encourages "pressing" compared to one that encourages "pulling"
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
C'mon Zap - he's number 4 in the world.
I wish I 'sucked' even 1% as much as Roddick!
the reason i said that is because i dont like him
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
i just dont like him thats all. that is seperate from his ability to travel around the world and make millions from playing tennis. besides, i made the comment in context of all pros. i am not comparing him to me, i am comparing him to all other pros. and with all the other pros, he isnt that great. not that fun to watch, not great shots, a pretty good serve, but its just i dont know...nothig spectacular. also after watching him THROW his racket onto Federer's side of the court a couple feet from him in one match when Federer hit a winner off his smash, i have lost respect for him. YOU never ever EVER throw racket over the net at opponent. same with Kiefer. youtube it if you dont believe me
goober
Legend
Actually in the context of all pros he is in the top 0.1% of players. He has won a slam and has made the finals of 3 others. He is a consistent top 10 player. He is going to the Hall of Fame. But I guess that sucks compared to all other pros.
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
yes it does. in my opinion. and i would never stick someone in the hall of fame for throwing racket at opponent. i guess you wont mind if someone threw their racket at you after you hit an amazing winner. thats you though. also, i made no mention of his record. i mentioned other aspects of his game. but i guess you chose not to reply to what i wrote, and added in your own comments.
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goober
Legend
Well I guess you think that Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Ilie Natase should not be in the HOF? They all have done much worse than throwing racquets and far more often than Roddick ever did.
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
they are not my favorite players.
goober
Legend
Well it is hard to respond to your other comments because they are mostly subjective.
Roddick has a "pretty good serve"- How many pros have a better serve than Roddick? Here are some stats: Roddick currently is #3 in Aces, #3 in % service games won, #6 in % second serve points won and #4 in % 1st serves points won. That is not "pretty good" that is outstanding and definitely has to be considered one of the top 3 servers currently on the ATP http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/matchfacts/
"not that fun to watch"- subjective so I can't really respond. I don't find his game unwatchable compared to other pros.
"not great shots"- serve and forehand are his weapons and he makes great shots with them. Again subjective.
"nothig spectacular"- same
I youtubed the Roddick and throwing racquet and I couldn't find it. Maybe you can make a direct link. Sure I would mind if somebody threw a racquet at me. But throwing a racquet has never kept a player out of the HoF.
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
sweet-you finally got my point. it is what i think. you my friend can think otherwise all you want.
tennisace432
Banned
im pretty sure zapvor is a new player. if you were wondering why i am saying this instead of comparing roddick to another pro is that i agree that serious players wouldnt undermine another pro
only new players like you have no understanding of how much talent it takes to become as good as a player like roddick. for godes sakes if you were 999 in the world then im pretty sure the person spent millions of hours perfecting their game.
needless to say only idiots like you who are novice to the game dont understand stuff like this.
only new players like you have no understanding of how much talent it takes to become as good as a player like roddick. for godes sakes if you were 999 in the world then im pretty sure the person spent millions of hours perfecting their game.
needless to say only idiots like you who are novice to the game dont understand stuff like this.
cam2
Rookie
He probably said the wrong thing, but you don't need to call him an idiot because of it.
You see it more with the WTA players. Really, a different swing from the WW model. Raw swing speed is higher than the WW, but you don't get the same wiping action. And that pretty much describes the modern woman's game.
http://www.easitennis2.com/PowerClinic/StabilityAndPower.htm
Now, in the above example, she (like most of the women players who use this technique) keeps the racquet standing on edge. But it can be done in a figure-8 style, using wrist, so long as you keep the racquet tip pointing toward the back fence. Also, unlike traditional WW model, you can set up the butt cap before initiating the forward swing, although you'll also be forcing the shot a bit more. A lot of the women seem to have the butt cap almost set up before they turn.
It's actually interesting to see that the women and men are taught fundamentally different forms. Huh. Anyhoo, you got Sharapova, Clijsters, Williams sisters, Dementieva, and Petrova as examples. Whereas Henin uses true WW model.
And there's other nuances involved too. Some of the grunting you hear with the women may reflect the swing. In a pressing kinetic chain, the beginning of the forward swing requires a little "nudge" (like the bottom of a bench press), whereas the men's pulling style starts out pretty easy.
Moreover, although linear weight transfer and torso rotation helps both swings, they do it in completely different ways. In a pulling chain, the torso rotation facilitates much of the pure swing speed, whereas the pushing of the feet helps make the swing more linear (thus you drive into ball more.) In a pressing chain, the feet makes the racquet swing accelerate, and a deeper torso rotation helps establish a straighter line toward the ball.
This is manifest if you watch what the men and women favor. Most of the men favor deep unit turns, and setting their feet before taking the shot. Most of the women power players almost jump into the shot, and they like to keep the feet moving forward, stepping into a lot of shots.
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
hahaha i have been playing for almost exactly a year now. at the end of this month will mark my first year. as for the rest of your comment, i say we meet up and play a 5 setter to settle the score, shall we?
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ I would love to come down as a guest hit with the mid atlantic chapter, we don't have to play a 5 setter, but It would be cool to hit with you guys.
J
J
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
yea you should come down and have a hit withh us. our one-day membership fee is only $45 for a limited time!
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
^^What do I win if I beat you?
blackdiamond
New User
Tricky,
First off, I'd like to say that your posts have been extremely educational and I've improved my strokes from the stuff I've learned. Thanks.
I'm a little confused in the pull vs. press kinetic chain. My stroke resembles more of the pull chain, with my racket head pointing forward on the backswing. My forehand feels very much like I'm throwing a ball sidearm. However, I don't feel as if I'm using my pulling muscles, such as biceps and back muscles. I try not to use much arm muscles but rely on my core to turn shoulders, with my arms coming along for the ride.
Am I doing a pull or press chain(or am I doing it completely wrong)?
Thanks again.
Yeah, it's not exact terminology. Couldn't think of a better one at the moment. Most people associate the forward swing of a double-bend as pulling toward ball, so I went with that.
Yeah, that's correct. The biceps-forearm aid the wiping movement, but it mostly comes for the ride. You yourself think solely about the shoulders and the pecs, and avoid thinking about contracting your biceps.
If you're doing the backswing correctly and have a smooth swing, it's extremely likely you're using the right chain. Basically if you swinged "mid-level" . . .
1) If elbow is at or above hand (overall elbow shape resembles a L), you have a pulling movement.
2) If elbow is significantly below hand (overall elbow shape resembles a V), you have a pressing movement
This stuff also helps to explain how different stances affect shot. When you have a more open stance, you get a heavier shot due to the torso rotation. When you have a more neutral stance, you get a more penetrating shot due to the linear transfer creating a more linear swing. By planting off fet in your open stance, you create deeper, heavy shots. By winding yourself quicker in neutral stance you create more pace.
tennisace432
Banned
indeed we should, although i really dont think that the outcome of the match would set rights or wrongs. your comments about roddick shows a complete lack of understanding of how difficult it is to become pro level.
I live in florida specifically.. do you think you can travel down to play me?
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
hahhaa i am just playing with you. i suck at tennis. and my comments do not reflect my understanding of how difficult it is to become pro.
Indrid Cold
New User
zapvor, i think that when roddick threw his racquet at fed, he did it as more of a respect/joke thing. Fed had just hit an unbelievable shot and Andy was smiling the whole time. It was done in good spirit.
But as for Andy in general i do agree. He relies on his serve to carry him through a match instead of taking full andvantage of it with the rest of his game. He comes to the net of the worst approaches and the change in his forehand makes me upset. I do find him watchable though.
But as for Andy in general i do agree. He relies on his serve to carry him through a match instead of taking full andvantage of it with the rest of his game. He comes to the net of the worst approaches and the change in his forehand makes me upset. I do find him watchable though.
blackdiamond
New User
Thanks for the clarifications. According to your descriptions, I think I'm doing a pulling movement, or at least attempting to. I think the pressing movement(majority of WTA players) is completely unnatural feeling to me. It's just not a normal "throwing" motion. It's interesting that you say the pressing movement generates more racket speed. Specifically, what muscles are involved in the pressing movements and how are they different than the pulling movement.
That's absolutely the way it happened. He didn't throw it hard, and it was nowhere near Federer. It was kind of a "my racquet is useless against such a great shot" kind of gesture.
It's sort of the difference between a sidearm/submarine throwing motion (pulling) and a 3/4 throwing style (pressing.) The mechanics looks similar, but the pressing chain uses different parts of the forearm, hand; and it uses triceps over biceps as the pivot, and more of the deltoid area than the pulling chain. The practical difference also reflect the different motions. When you throw overhand, you can throw harder. When you throw in a sidearm or submarine motion, you can impart more spin.
It's an aggressive style that reflects the modern women's game. it's about generating laser shots that can often sail long in game situation. Sharapova really is the poster girl of this FH style. If you break down her mechanics, she does an early takeback, keeps the racquet on edge, and the tip significantly behind her. Then when she's ready to hit the ball, set sets up the cap and sometimes jumps into the shot. Not a lot of torso rotation. The Williams sisters don't keep their racquet on edge, and they have a more natural throwing style to this form. So among the top players, you see pace that starts to look like D1 tourney, but without the spin or heaviness that is associated with the men's game. And that is partially built into the choices made with the stroke.
In any case, the forgotten element with Roddick's set up position is that he points the racquet tip down. If he didn't do this, his backswing would be set up for the pressing-style, and much of that backswing's massive potential energy would be wasted in the process. As his arm falls, he makes sure that his racquet tip stays forward or toward the net, so that he can snap-throw into the forward swing. Or crack the whip, as he likes to put it.
Ten_is
Rookie
Tricky,
I think your explanations require references. - video / pictures and examples. Reading your long comments: "facilitates a SRC/SSC, pressing kinetic chain pulling, etc.. pull v.s. press explanations, bicep, tricep pulling action, raquet tip forward on edge.. seem complicated.
It's all very confusing to me personally. I'm not sure what you are talking about half the time but if you were to show pictures and examples it would make more sense to me.
I think your explanations require references. - video / pictures and examples. Reading your long comments: "facilitates a SRC/SSC, pressing kinetic chain pulling, etc.. pull v.s. press explanations, bicep, tricep pulling action, raquet tip forward on edge.. seem complicated.
It's all very confusing to me personally. I'm not sure what you are talking about half the time but if you were to show pictures and examples it would make more sense to me.
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
yea he did that out of frustration. i am not sure about respect. if he truly respected what Federer did, he wouldnt throw the racket over the net. what really impressed me was Federer walking over calmly,picking up the racket,and handing it back to Andy. that is real class.
if you think throwing the racket over the net at the guy and landing a couple feet away is "nowhere near Federer" i wonder about you. do you play tennis with your racket on the other guy's side of the net?
Yeah, I definitely agree.
To me, a lot of what I yap about is "simple" because almost all of it has to do with how the muscles "feel." But, like you said, it's hard to show without any pictures.
The only place I've found that actively talks about a "pressing" style of forehand is over at easitennis, and it's no coincidence that their examples are primarily female players. If you look at its pictures and diagrams, you can see the difference between that and the WW model. More or less, you end up slapping the ball.
Somewhere on that site there's a clip of the founder demonstrating this swing. He slaps a ball in air at about 80+mph and it's got all this sidespin on it.
Yeah, check out their backswing, particularly the racquet tip. And also check out the elbow bend in their forward swing. At least to me, it's significantly different than the WW model.
What's really interesting is that, if you watch a lot of slo-mo clips of the big WTA hitters, this really is how they hit the ball.
So basically the ATP guys do WW, and many of the WTA players do this. And it seems like a mutually exclusive "institutional" difference between the men and women.
What's really interesting is that, if you watch a lot of slo-mo clips of the big WTA hitters, this really is how they hit the ball.
So basically the ATP guys do WW, and many of the WTA players do this. And it seems like a mutually exclusive "institutional" difference between the men and women.
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