OE top 6 at Wimbledon if we only look at prime level

[messiahrobins]

not at all. For some players it will be easier to play with “old” equipment and for others with “new” equipment.
all we can do is compare outcomes vs their competition

That is nonsense. Have you ever tried to play with a wooden racket? If not try it. No player would find a wooden racket easier to play with for a variety of reasons!

 

[messiahrobins]

or maybe hes just overrated, as some serious boxing experts tend to think

He was never Ali level, but at his peak he probably was Foreman level. I rate Lennox Lewis alot but peak Tyson would have beat him as Lennox had a suspect jaw.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

That is nonsense. Have you ever tried to play with a wooden racket? If not try it. No player would find a wooden racket easier to play with for a variety of reasons!

Tbf I think what he meant was “easier” relatively to the competition who also have to play with wooden racquets.

 

[Razer]

Even with Seles out, Graf’s competition is not worse than Serena’s. Had the stabbing never occurred, then Steffi’s competition would have been considerably better than Serena’s and that does not yet take into the account the age shift you are an avid supporter of. Steffi’s last two slams she played where W-F.

Steffi's competition is irrelevant.... the fact she she has only 11 slams before the stabbing means that we never know how many she would have lost if that did not happen.... who knows maybe Seles would have wiped out Steffi and she would have retired with 13-14 slams? When a younger ATG enters her 20s then the older ones becomes a proper pigeon.... History has shown this, look at Fedal ... So no, Graf has no argument man.... please don't sell Graf's greatness to me, I just cannot buy that,..... You have more chance of convincing me on Borg than Graf

or maybe hes just overrated, as some serious boxing experts tend to think

Never

Tyson was 5'10 (Tiny for a heavyweight) and he raised so much hell.... If he was 6'3+ in height like George Foreman types then he probably would not have lost to anyone on earth, Iron Mike Tyson was the baddest man on the planet, it is not hype, he was ferocious and a savage.....

 

[NoleFam]

Yes but that loss to Murray is a big black mark.

We both know Djokovic would have made Murray pay for that 2013 title if he had the chance. Lol. In 2014 or 2015, Djokovic would taken care of him.

 

[RS]

What about if Novak had to travel back in time to the 80s and use a tiny wooden racquet, wear god awful shoes, and play on tricky low bouncing grass in a time where SnV was the main strategy? No egg either and tough to find gluten free food. Why don’t we go the other way? How would the modern guys do when subjected to the older conditions?

Look at this ****ing racquet man! Look at it! They didn’t even have color back then!

That image is so good to look at.

 

[messiahrobins]

Tbf I think what he meant was “easier” relatively to the competition who also have to play with wooden racquets.

Wooden rackets would help McEnroe far more than Borg. Wooden rackets would help the touch players. What Borg, with his style, achieved with a wooden racket is insane tbh. Had he won the USO and Sampras won an FO, they would be my GOATS.

 

[GabeT]

That is nonsense. Have you ever tried to play with a wooden racket? If not try it. No player would find a wooden racket easier to play with for a variety of reasons!

lol, yes, I grew up with them.

And no, we have no idea if Borg would have done as well in the modern era. He never trained under those conditions

 

[RS]

We both know Djokovic would have made Murray pay for that 2013 title if he had the chance. Lol. In 2014 or 2015, Djokovic would taken care of him.

This was a debate once funny enough some people thought Murray would beat him in 2015 if they played.

 

[messiahrobins]

Steffi's competition is irrelevant.... the fact she she has only 11 slams before the stabbing means that we never know how many she would have lost if that did not happen.... who knows maybe Seles would have wiped out Steffi and she would have retired with 13-14 slams? When a younger ATG enters her 20s then the older ones becomes a proper pigeon.... History has shown this, look at Fedal ... So no, Graf has no argument man.... please don't sell Graf's greatness to me, I just cannot buy that,..... You have more chance of convincing me on Borg than Graf



Never

Tyson was 5'10 (Tiny for a heavyweight) and he raised so much hell.... If he was 6'3+ in height like George Foreman types then he probably would not have lost to anyone on earth, Iron Mike Tyson was the baddest man on the planet, it is not hype, he was ferocious and a savage.....

So using your argument had Nadal not suffered chronic injuries from 2014 onwards, Federer not got old, Murray not need an artificial hip replacement, then Djokovic would not have 24 slams.
I get your point, but i think Seles was too one dimensional to be a long term problem for Graf and by the time of the stabbing Graf had her figured out anyway. Maybe she stops Graf getting 22 majors and Graf 'only' got to say 18 to equal martina and Chrissy, but Graf would still be GOAT as she did a Golden Calendar Slam. In fact eve with 10 Majors she would be GOAT given 1988. That wont ever be done again by anyone.

 

[Razer]

This was a debate once funny enough some people thought Murray would beat him in 2015 if they played.

Djoker would have crushed Murray in 2015 if they had met. A man who can beat Novak or even go 5 does not get straight setted vs Federer.

 

[NoleFam]

This was a debate once funny enough some people thought Murray would beat him in 2015 if they played.

Lol, they can't be serious. You need peak Sampras and peak Federer to try and beat 2015 Wimbledon final Djokovic.

 

[messiahrobins]

lol, yes, I grew up with them.

And no, we have no idea if Borg would have done as well in the modern era. He never trained under those conditions

So you are telling me a guy with Borg's talent would be worse with more physios, better rackets and balls? Sorry, but that is absurd.
I know where you get this idea from, it is an idea peddled by McEnroe when he couldnt compete eventually with Lendl Becker and other big hitters. Dont get fooled though, that is McEnroes ego talking and attempt at saving face. The reality with McEnroe was that his reflexes had dimmed by 1985 after his career break and given his game was so reliant on god like reflexes and touch and precision that 2% drop was catastrophic for him as it often is for that ilk of player, Edberg another example.

 

[Kralingen]

We both know Djokovic would have made Murray pay for that 2013 title if he had the chance. Lol. In 2014 or 2015, Djokovic would taken care of him.

Almost certainly would have in 2014, Murray was tragic that year. A bit better in 2015 but obviously Fed is a much worse matchup than Djoko is on grass for him.

But I’m not so sure it would’ve ever been an easy win vs Murray on grass, the 5-0 sets has to mean something. Even when not at his best post injury, Muzz played Novak pretty close in 2014/2015 on other surfaces so it wouldn’t have just been a foregone conclusion.

 

[NoleFam]

Even with Seles out, Graf’s competition is not worse than Serena’s. Had the stabbing never occurred, then Steffi’s competition would have been considerably better than Serena’s and that does not yet take into the account the age shift you are an avid supporter of. Steffi’s last two slams she played where W-F.

Really? You must not have been that impressed with the WTA from 1999-2009 then? I agree with everything from 2012 onwards being on the level of Graf's competition though.

 

[NoleFam]

Almost certainly would have in 2014, Murray was tragic that year. A bit better in 2015 but obviously Fed is a much worse matchup than Djoko is on grass for him.

But I’m not so sure it would’ve ever been an easy win vs Murray on grass, the 5-0 sets has to mean something. Even when not at his best post injury, Muzz played Novak pretty close in 2014/2015 on other surfaces so it wouldn’t have just been a foregone conclusion.

I just think in 2013, Djokovic played a bad match. I actually think his grass form was better that year than 2012. In 2012, Djokovic did not play as well as he was capable of on grass. He said he was very disappointed with his level after that SF and felt he had played better leading up to the match. Credit to Federer for making him play worse though. At the Olympics, again he wasn't good enough. He lost to Murray and Del Potro. 2015 Djokovic would have hammered Murray though. Just too brutal on serve, return and forehand.

 

[Kralingen]

I just think in 2013, Djokovic played a bad match. I actually think his grass form was better that year than 2012. In 2012, Djokovic did not play as well as he was capable of on grass. He said he was very disappointed with his level after that SF and felt he had played better leading up to the match. Credit to Federer for making him play worse though. At the Olympics, again he wasn't good enough. He lost to Murray and Del Potro. 2015 Djokovic would have hammered Murray though. Just too brutal on serve, return and forehand.

I tend to agree but why are we so sure? Didn’t Cilic and Anderson (especially Anderson) have him on the ropes in 14/15? It’s not like he was playing some unimpeachable tennis the entire tournament, at the very least he had some bad hiccups that made him vulnerable. When the match got tight in 14 vs Fed he really choked the 4th and needlessly let it go 5 as well.

So that speaks to some hidden vulnerability in that level that could show up vs better opponents who stress his game (such as Murray).

Point is I think you should respect Murray’s grass game enough to say it’s not just gonna be a “hammering” or whatever exaggerated term you want to use.

 

[GabeT]

So you are telling me a guy with Borg's talent would be worse with more physios, better rackets and balls? Sorry, but that is absurd.
I know where you get this idea from, it is an idea peddled by McEnroe when he couldnt compete eventually with Lendl Becker and other big hitters. Dont get fooled though, that is McEnroes ego talking and attempt at saving face. The reality with McEnroe was that his reflexes had dimmed by 1985 after his career break and given his game was so reliant on god like reflexes and touch and precision that 2% drop was catastrophic for him as it often is for that ilk of player, Edberg another example.

Borg showed undeniable talent in the conditions he played and trained for. That much we know with certainty.

But we have no idea how he would have fared in different conditions. among other things the sport today is much faster and physically demanding than in Borg‘s time. Maybe he would have adapted well. Maybe not.

 

[tennis_pro]

Losses in 4th rounds or Qfs don't count much in my book, players can have losses in 1st week or even in 4R/QF due to lapse of form, when someone reaches the final or even the SF then all eyes are on you as you are in form and you are then judged by how good you are.

Sound like some lameass BS excuse.

 

[NoleFam]

I tend to agree but why are we so sure? Didn’t Cilic and Anderson (especially Anderson) have him on the ropes in 14/15? It’s not like he was playing some unimpeachable tennis the entire tournament, at the very least he had some bad hiccups that made him vulnerable. When the match got tight in 14 vs Fed he really choked the 4th and needlessly let it go 5 as well.

Point is I think you should respect Murray’s grass game enough to say it’s not just gonna be a “hammering” or whatever exaggerated term you want to use.

Anderson was goating. It can only be understood by watching the match if you haven't seen it. Djokovic played well but the serve and +1 combo was immense, and Anderson was very solid off the ground. Those two sets were very close. Djokovic straight setted Cilic in 2015. It went 5 in 2014 but we know how good 2014 Cilic was. He did choke vs Federer in the 2014 final though. That's also a harder matchup for him than Murray. He can hurt Djokovic more than Murray can imo. Murray never played the absolute best versions of him on grass like Federer did.

I do respect Murray on grass and he's a great grass player. It's not like I think Djokovic's losses to him were bad losses. Murray did indeed get hammered by Dimitrov in 2014 though, or did we see it differently? Do you think that version would beat Djokovic? He lost in 3 sets to Federer in 2015 as well although a closer match.

 

[Razer]

Sound like some lameass BS excuse.

It is not an excuse, thats how the world judges you. If you are gonna lose then you better lose early, don't reach the big stage and get your butt whooped.

GOATs on a surface should have a clean record in finals in their peak years.... Sampras 7-0 at W, Nadal 14-0 at French....you saw Nadal losing to soderling and even to djokovic in bad form but you never saw him lose in the final.... see thats how it is....

 

[itrium84]

In order.

Federer
Sampras
Borg
McEnroe
Djokovic
Becker

Djokovic

McEnroe

Becker

Borg

Sampras

Federer

 

[tennis_pro]

It is not an excuse, thats how the world judges you. If you are gonna lose then you better lose early, don't reach the big stage and get your butt whooped.

GOATs on a surface should have a clean record in finals in their peak years.... Sampras 7-0 at W, Nadal 14-0 at French....you saw Nadal losing to soderling and even to djokovic in bad form but you never saw him lose in the final.... see thats how it is....

I dont know in what world getting straight setted by a one Slam wonder in your peak in the QF is better than losing to a GOAT candidate in the final in an epic 5 set match. This is what it took to beat prime Fed at Wimbledon instead of being wiped out by a borderline journeyman.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Really? You must not have been that impressed with the WTA from 1999-2009 then? I agree with everything from 2012 onwards being on the level of Graf's competition though.

I mean for their whole careers. Serena’s competition at the beginning was strong, but the last 10 slams she won include some complete who is who of journey women.

 

[NoleFam]

I mean for their whole careers. Serena’s competition at the beginning was strong, but the last 10 slams she won include some complete who is who of journey women.

I agree about the last 10 or 11 but the first 12 at least happened in a pretty strong era. I would say the 2010 AO was the last one in her strong era where she beat Henin in the final and other great players along the way. I don't know if Graf had a multitude of years with that level of competition. It will be hard for me to say Graf's competition was on the same level.

 

[Razer]

I dont know in what world getting straight setted by a one Slam wonder in your peak in the QF is better than losing to a GOAT candidate in the final in an epic 5 set match. This is what it took to beat prime Fed at Wimbledon instead of being wiped out by a borderline journeyman.

Losing to nobodies is indeed better than losing to great players..... It is basic common sense.

Djokovic lost to Stan and Murray but always defeated Federer and Nadal in most crucial matches in the 2010s, thats why he is on 24 slams, if he had lost to Fedal and beat Stan/Murray then his GOAT Case would be non existent because they would have more slams.

So the point is..... Federer is an embarrassment for losing to Nadal.... I donno what kind of Fed fan are you for accepting his loss to Nadal but back in 08-09 we were all pretty embarrassed with those losses to Nadal. We can live with his loss to Novak in 2010s but the losses to Nadal in 2000s are all black marks.

People remember your losses to your biggest rivals, not to nobodies.... Great players always want to beat their rivals at all cost even if it means losing to some 1 slam wonders or even journeymen.....

 

[tennis_pro]

Losing to nobodies is indeed better than losing to great players..... It is basic common sense.

Dude seriously wtf. HOW

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Evolved and absolute levels

1. Alcaraz
2. Djokovic
3. Kyrgios
4. Berrettini
5. Garin
6. Guido Pella

Love it

Edit: Berrettini above Kyrgios tbh

 

[mike danny]

2015 Djokovic at the Wimbledon murders everyone with his prime level maybe with the exception of Sampras on fast 90's grass! Imho...if you want peak levels specifically - Sampras -> Djokovic -> Federer -> McEnroe -> Becker -> Borg (Borg is very overrated on these forums...especially when people talking about grass! He wasn't good on grass, he simply timed his schedule in the way, that he would peak for the Wimbledon coming tuned in! And he was succesful at doing that for 5 cosecutive peak years of his career, but his level on grass in general isn't as good as people make it out to be! LOL)

Djokovic higher peak level on grass than Fed is a joke.

 

[mike danny]

Inb4 Fed fam charge at you

Nah, Sampras having a higher peak on grass than Fed isn't an outlandish claim.

 

[mike danny]

Federer lost to Nadal in 2008!

Can't see how it's worse than losing to Wawrinka.

 

[StefanV]

What's up? @mike danny

 

[mike danny]

What's up? @mike danny

I'm good, you? Ready for the holidays?

Or are you trying to taste that high of success again one more time after Murray ATG thread?

 

[mike danny]

If it’s peak/ Prime level then it’s Sampras and everyone else miles back and left in the dust. No one else is even in the same conversation peak for peak. From there I would say Becker narrowly Then Fed. Then Djoker or Borg then Nadal. But 2008 Nadal peak wise is probably better than Djoker and Borg on grass. But his overrall prime level wasn’t

If we are taking prime/peak levels that is


The only greater peak/prime level force on a surface than Pete on grass was Nadal on clay.

Nadal on clay is in a tier of his own. Way better than anyone anywhere and dwarfs Pete at Wimb.

 

[StefanV]

I'm good, you? Ready for the holidays?

Or are you trying to taste that high of success again one more time after Murray ATG thread?

I am good and ready for the holidays. I will never create a successful thread like that one again.

 

[mike danny]

I am good and ready for the holidays. I will never create a successful thread like that one again.

So you peaked late like Stan, but what a peak that was.

 

[RS]

Nah, Sampras having a higher peak on grass than Fed isn't an outlandish claim.

I was kidding. Don't think Fed fans would bite too hard there.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

2015 Djokovic at the Wimbledon murders everyone with his prime level maybe with the exception of Sampras on fast 90's grass! Imho...if you want peak levels specifically - Sampras -> Djokovic -> Federer -> McEnroe -> Becker -> Borg (Borg is very overrated on these forums...especially when people talking about grass! He wasn't good on grass, he simply timed his schedule in the way, that he would peak for the Wimbledon coming tuned in! And he was succesful at doing that for 5 cosecutive peak years of his career, but his level on grass in general isn't as good as people make it out to be! LOL)

The Djokovic who went over five with Anderson, got Gasquet in the semi (lol) and also lost a set against 33 years old Fed in the final? Does not sound so otherworldly for me.
As for Borg: yes he completely timed his schedule for Wimbledon a la Lendl in his later career. I think this is why he usually appeared in the FO final and then, without playing a grass warmup completely changed his playing style from baseline grinding to SnV within two weeks and in his strongest year 1978 even played DC against Yugoslavia between FO and Wimbledon.
In short: completely clueless statement, I actually should have stopped reading when saying someone who won 5 consecutive Wimblies was not good on grass.

 

[abmk]

2015 Djokovic at the Wimbledon murders everyone with his prime level maybe with the exception of Sampras on fast 90's grass! Imho...if you want peak levels specifically - Sampras -> Djokovic -> Federer -> McEnroe -> Becker -> Borg (Borg is very overrated on these forums...especially when people talking about grass! He wasn't good on grass, he simply timed his schedule in the way, that he would peak for the Wimbledon coming tuned in! And he was succesful at doing that for 5 cosecutive peak years of his career, but his level on grass in general isn't as good as people make it out to be! LOL)

don't forget 15 djoko was down 0-2 vs Anderson in 4th round and only played as well as needed vs Gasquet.

peak sampras/federer easily beat djokovic 15 at Wim. ~34 yo old fed was keeping up for 2 sets easily vs djokovic in the final. Even 3rd set, if fed had not messed up, would be tense.

12 fed beat prime djoko convincingly in 4 sets (their most important match level wise on grass)

prime Mac/Borg/Becker also beat prime djokovic.

15 djokovic is doubtful vs 07/08 nadal of 2nd week too. its about even IMO. LMAO @ bringing in fed/sampras.

Djokovic is the one vastly over-rated on grass on these forums

Oh and borg with 5 wimbledons in a row and 6th final (only losing in tight 4 sets to peak Mac) >> djokovic winning 3 out of 6 wimbledons at prime(11-16), getting thrashed by Murray and convincingly beaten by querrey and fed

Borg win over peak Mac in 1980 and Gerulaitis/Connors b2b in 77 > any win of Djoko at Wim (vs opponent level wise)

Borg had the toughest job switching from baseline grinding at RG to aggressive SnV/net play at Wimbledon in a short time. Are you like trying to be certified as an ignoramus in this regard by suggesting the opposite?

 

[fedfan24]

You have Djokovic ahead of his teacher Becker.
You have Mcenroe put above both of them as if you are so sure.
You have Federer above Sampras despite Nadal beating Federer on a big stage while Nobody could touch Sampras in the big stages.
You have Borg above Djokovic as if you are sure the wooden expert artist Borg will beat Djokovic who is an evolved athlete.


This whole exercise is a big joke ... @NeutralFan

let be honest, late career Sampras would’ve been wrecked by 08 Nadal the bouncy modern grass. He might eke out a tiebreak. Federer was a better, more complete player than Sampras because he could play from the back too.

 

[austintennis2005]

Federer has three 1st round losses at Wimbledon and Sampras has two 1st round losses, before they both figured out the surface. Sampras flat out hated grass and said it publicly until the epiphany happened and he realized it was the best surface for him.

But the reason he switched from 2hbh to one as a junior was build a game best suited to win Wimbledon one day.
Do you have the source of the quote where he says he hated grass?

 

[fedfan24]

Federer is number 1 with Pete in 2nd.

Djokovic can battle it out with Nadal, McEnroe, Becker for 4th place behind Borg.

 

[NoleFam]

But the reason he switched from 2hbh to one as a junior was build a game best suited to win Wimbledon one day.
Do you have the source of the quote where he says he hated grass?

https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/06/sport/tennis/tennis-sampras-wimbledon-grass-federer/index.html

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

But the reason he switched from 2hbh to one as a junior was build a game best suited to win Wimbledon one day.
Do you have the source of the quote where he says he hated grass?

That was also my thought, however, @NoleFam is right, I have read that statement from Pete as well. It is not necessarily mutually exclusive. Fischer trained him to win Wimbledon by changing to a one-hander but nevertheless once he played there the first times he might have felt uncomfortable.

 

[NoleFam]

That was also my thought, however, @NoleFam is right, I have read that statement from Pete as well. It is not necessarily mutually exclusive. Fischer trained him to win Wimbledon by changing to a one-hander but nevertheless once he played there the first times he might have felt uncomfortable.

Yea, see the article I posted above. He's said this more than once though.

 

[RS]

Peak Djokovic vs Peak Roddick 20 matches on grass?

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

don't forget 15 djoko was down 0-2 vs Anderson in 4th round and only played as well as needed vs Gasquet.

peak sampras/federer easily beat djokovic 15 at Wim. ~34 yo old fed was keeping up for 2 sets easily vs djokovic in the final. Even 3rd set, if fed had not messed up, would be tense.

12 fed beat prime djoko convincingly in 4 sets (their most important match level wise on grass)

prime Mac/Borg/Becker also beat prime djokovic.

15 djokovic is doubtful vs 07/08 nadal of 2nd week too. its about even IMO. LMAO @ bringing in fed/sampras.

Djokovic is the one vastly over-rated on grass on these forums

Oh and borg with 5 wimbledons in a row and 6th final (only losing in tight 4 sets to peak Mac) >> djokovic winning 3 out of 6 wimbledons at prime(11-16), getting thrashed by Murray and convincingly beaten by querrey and fed

Borg had the toughest job switching from baseline grinding at RG to aggressive SnV/net play at Wimbledon in a short time. Are you like trying to be certified as an ignoramus in this regard by suggesting the opposite?

Haha that guy’s Borg statement takes the cake in this thread. It is so unbelievably clueless that I am not sure whether it is intentional trolling.

 

[abmk]

But the reason he switched from 2hbh to one as a junior was build a game best suited to win Wimbledon one day.
Do you have the source of the quote where he says he hated grass?

"For years, I felt that grass was unfair. My first few trips there, I thought, 'Ugh! This surface stinks'. I'm holding serve easily, but I'm going to lose, 7-6, 7-6, 7-6. My attitude was very negative, even though my coach Pete Fischer always insisted that I would do well there," Pete Sampras said.

"I had a great game but a c***py attitude" - When Pete Sampras recalled John McEnroe conversation that changed his approach on grasscourt

Former World No. 1 Pete Sampras, widely known for his prowess on grasscourt, once held a strong aversion to the surface, much to the surprise of fans.

www.sportskeeda.com

"When I first came over here, the first three years, I didn't really enjoy grass," Sampras said Thursday on a teleconference call from England. "I thought it was a fast surface that was unfair. I kind of had a negative attitude towards the grass. I just didn't like the speed."

How a hardcourt guy like Sampras learned to love grass

Pete Sampras struggled when he first played on grass. But then he adapted and learned to call it home.

www.espn.com

 

[Razer]

let be honest, late career Sampras would’ve been wrecked by 08 Nadal the bouncy modern grass. He might eke out a tiebreak. Federer was a better, more complete player than Sampras because he could play from the back too.

If Sampras is playing on a bouncy Grass then it automatically means Sampras would be of Nadal's age/at least Federer's age, would be using a better racquet and would automatically playing much better from the back than he did in his era. Federer losing to Nadal has more to do with his mindblock vs Rafa after all this beatings on Clay and the latest one being at FO08, even Fed himself accepted that playing Nadal so many times on clay in the beginning affected the way he approached Nadal, defensive even on quicker surfaces. Sampras would not have such limitations with a better serve and a more clear mind, so all in all Federer doesn't deserve any sympathy for the loss there even thouugh we could say he had not lost for many years and so an odd defeat was coming at the hands of someone..... but then we all know that loss vs Nadal was in the making since years. Nadal really got some glory at the expense of Federer, pretty sure Sampras would not allow that to happen in a Grand Slam Final. He wouldn't even face Nadal on clay so many times to have a mindblock to begin with...

 

[fedfan24]

i think 2015 Murray would lasted longer than the 2 sets Federer did, but djokoivc would win in 4 (more competitive) or 5 sets.