Paris Horror Show Continues

[Meles]

The speed up of WTF and Paris in 2016 through now to 2018 is well documented with Guy Fraudget finally getting his golden goose in Paris. The surface speed change has been well debated here at the end of 2017 and some like watching it and some don't. Count me out as the apparent tennis quality goes down with players more likely to make UEs and we generally have serve dominated affairs. Others like the faster matches and are bored by the intricacies of baseline play. Little doubt these are Museum slam like conditions.

So rather than argue about whether or not the courts should be faster or slower, the question for this thread is who is going to benefit? My take is that really big servers (see Isner and maybe Anderson on a roll) do well and this does make for an interesting contrast with the other beneficiary; the extremely mobile player who still can cover these courts from the baseline and whose serve is made better by the faster conditions to where they can be hard to break. Goffin is exactly this type of player and we saw him play exceptionally well at WTF last year. RBA seems suddenly resurgent and also the diminutive Dzumhur. If these players get hot on serve, they still have enough game to break. A healthy Nishikori might be able to do some damage as well.

The player who may combine all of this is Djoko who was unbroken in Shanghai (one of few to do this at Masters event) and has his peak first serve game here for 2018. Djoko clearly has the mobility to break and has a good chance of doing very, very well on serve in these conditions. Federer won't mind this environment but had a lot of trouble with Goffin last year at WTF and Simon this year in Basel. Nadal can play on fast courts so if his serve game catches fire he cold be a threat.

A lot of more clay court oriented players won't have what it takes. Cilic might finally break loose, but he's been horrible at WTF the last two years in similar conditions. Khachanov and Medvedev have the serve game and maybe enough return game. Tiafoe has a very Sock like game and that worked well last year. Basilashvili not without hope if he can hold serve. Mighty mites Simon, Schwartzman (still can't hold serve well enough), Mannarino, RBA, and Dzumhur, still alive as well.

Bottom line, despite some poor or less impressive results in 2016:
45 / 2016 ATP World Tour Finals
F I Hard Andy Murray Novak Djokovic 6-3 6-4 H2H
SF I Hard Novak Djokovic Kei Nishikori 6-1 6-1 H2H
RR A I Hard Novak Djokovic Dominic Thiem 6-7(10) 6-0 6-2 H2H
RR A I Hard Novak Djokovic Milos Raonic 7-6(6) 7-6(5) H2H
RR A I Hard Novak Djokovic David Goffin 6-1 6-2 H2H
44 / 2016 Paris Masters
QF I Hard Marin Cilic Novak Djokovic 6-4 7-6(2) H2H
R16 I Hard Novak Djokovic Grigor Dimitrov 4-6 6-2 6-3 H2H
R32 I Hard Novak Djokovic Gilles Muller 6-3 6-4 H2H

Djoko's new first serve game should allow him some smooth sailing this time around.

 

[TimHenmanATG]

The organisers and ATP need to swallow their pride, and re-introduce carpet courts, just as it was pre-2007.

Everyone knows where they stand (both literally and figuratively) on the carpet surface.

Either that, or just downgrade the Bercy tournament, and move its Masters slot to somewhere earlier in the year.

 

[Meles]

The organisers and ATP need to swallow their pride, and re-introduce carpet courts, just as it was pre-2007.

Everyone knows where they stand (both literally and figuratively) on the carpet surface.

Either that, or just downgrade the Bercy tournament, and move its Masters slot to somewhere earlier in the year.

LOL. What about indoor wood courts?

 

[SpinToWin]

The organisers and ATP need to swallow their pride, and re-introduce carpet courts, just as it was pre-2007.

Everyone knows where they stand (both literally and figuratively) on the carpet surface.

Either that, or just downgrade the Bercy tournament, and move its Masters slot to somewhere earlier in the year.

HEEEEEELLLL NOOOOO

TO THE NO NO NOOOOOOOO


I swear, the majority of people afflicted with carpet nostalgia haven’t played for extended periods of time on that ****. Not like there aren’t enough injuries as is, no, let’s add ****ty carpet to the mix.

There’s a reason players didn’t want it anymore.

 

[TimHenmanATG]

LOL. What about indoor wood courts?

Indoor wood courts are the boll**ks. None other than Bjorn Borg honed his craft on this surface, at an early age.

If you feel that the Paris-Bercy courts are ridiculously fast for hard indoors, then you've got nothing to lose by supporting the reintroduction of authentically quick surfaces like carpet.

 

[Nostradamus]

Indoor wood courts are the boll**ks. None other than Bjorn Borg honed his craft on this surface, at an early age.

If you feel that the Paris-Bercy courts are ridiculously fast for hard indoors, then you've got nothing to lose by supporting the reintroduction of authentically quick surfaces like carpet.

all the commentators have said this is medium paced indoor court albeit low bouncing in paris. Not fast

 

[TimHenmanATG]

HEEEEEELLLL NOOOOO

TO THE NO NO NOOOOOOOO


I swear, the majority of people afflicted with carpet nostalgia haven’t played for extended periods of time on that ****. Not like there aren’t enough injuries as is, no, let’s add ****ty carpet to the mix.

There’s a reason players didn’t want it anymore.

I casually played on indoor carpet to a decent standard iduring my younger days.

Players constantly whinge and complain about a surface after they lose.: ''The court is too heavy'', ''The bounce is too low'', ''The clay is too slippery'', ''The court is too wet'', ''The clay is too blue''. ''The grass is too green'', etc. etc.

What exactly is personally hazardous about a carpet court?

 

[SpinToWin]

I casually played on indoor carpet to a decent standard iduring my younger days.

Players constantly whinge and complain about a surface after they lose.: ''The court is too heavy'', ''The bounce is too low'', ''The clay is too slippery'', ''The court is too wet'', ''The clay is too blue''. ''The grass is too green'', etc. etc.

What exactly is personally hazardous about a carpet court?

More knee injuries, much easier to tear a ligament/twist your ankle, etc. It’s bad. The majority of my tennis related injuries come from carpet. I’ve played on carpet every winter ever since I started playing tennis. If I could get rid of every carpet court in Germany and replace them with something else, I’d do it in a heartbeat.

 

[toby55555]

TV coverage is not great, the angle of the camera seriously foreshortens the court.

 

[BeatlesFan]

There’s a reason players didn’t want it anymore.

Please list the "injuries" these guys sustained on carpet? And consider these are without any question the four greatest-ever players on carpet. What injuries did any of them ever have from playing on carpet, while playing cumulatively hundreds of matches on that surface?

 

[helterskelter]

Please list the "injuries" these guys sustained on carpet? And consider these are without any question the four greatest-ever players on carpet. What injuries did any of them ever have from playing on carpet, while playing cumulatively hundreds of matches on that surface?

Why aren't Connors and Borg in the conversation? Or even Laver?

 

[WhiskeyEE]

I casually played on indoor carpet to a decent standard iduring my younger days.

Players constantly whinge and complain about a surface after they lose.: ''The court is too heavy'', ''The bounce is too low'', ''The clay is too slippery'', ''The court is too wet'', ''The clay is too blue''. ''The grass is too green'', etc. etc.

What exactly is personally hazardous about a carpet court?

What kind of carpet was it?

I played on an indoor carpet court and it was a fairly hard carpet intended for different athletic activities. The bounce was a bit low but it wasn't hard to move or play on.

 

[Meles]

Indoor wood courts are the boll**ks. None other than Bjorn Borg honed his craft on this surface, at an early age.

If you feel that the Paris-Bercy courts are ridiculously fast for hard indoors, then you've got nothing to lose by supporting the reintroduction of authentically quick surfaces like carpet.

LMAO Wool pants anyone?

 

[Meles]

...

Did Mac just trip over a seem in the carpet in this shot?

 

[Russeljones]

Paris is faster, yeah compared to tectonic plates.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Grass needs to just become part of the history of tennis and get rid of it all together.


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[Deleted member 735320]

Please list the "injuries" these guys sustained on carpet? And consider these are without any question the four greatest-ever players on carpet. What injuries did any of them ever have from playing on carpet, while playing cumulatively hundreds of matches on that surface?

EXACTLY; if anything it is the rackets and the strings that need changing. The players need to stop complaining and realize that they play a GAME for money and earn a spectacular living, even the stinky players.

 

[MLRoy]

Indoor wood courts are the boll**ks. None other than Bjorn Borg honed his craft on this surface, at an early age.

If you feel that the Paris-Bercy courts are ridiculously fast for hard indoors, then you've got nothing to lose by supporting the reintroduction of authentically quick surfaces like carpet.

All the carpet I've played on was not only fast but low-bouncing. How would that solve the fast hard court "problem"...?

 

[MLRoy]

Grass needs to just become part of the history of tennis and get rid of it all together.


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If you played on it, I bet you'd feel differently. You remind me of what I used to be: a tennis addict up for a challenge. If you're an aggressive baseliner, not afraid of the net, it's A LOT of fun. Why should the "Wimbledonians" have all the fun?!

 

[MLRoy]

LMAO Wool pants anyone?

That emaciated (woman? cross-dresser?), having trouble lifting that wood racquet, is probably freezing. Now her "height-challenged" BF knows how to dress. ;^)B

 

[Mainad]

Lol....not much hate lost between those 2 was there?

 

[Shank Volley]

I don't even need to look up event results any more.

Meles posts an angry thread? Next gen players are sh!tting the bed.

Meles posts a thread about how the transition is over? Next gen player just made a third round somewhere.

Can't wait for his verbal org@sm when the Next Gen Finals start and there's literally no way for all of them to lose.

 

[Enga]

Big servers like Isner benefit more on slower indoor courts IMO. They take advantage best of the slower bounce allowing them to get into position to hit huge shots. The lack of random elements like wind and sun makes their serve and groundstrokes more consistent. On a fast indoor court theyre more liable to get wrongfooted or jammed, which benefits crafty point constructors. I think a 140 mph serve is 140 mph no matter what the surface is. Fast surface might make it marginally harder to return compared to the advantages slow indoor courts offer to a big guy.

 

[jackdaw]

Grass needs to just become part of the history of tennis and get rid of it all together.


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Ah how's it going Rafa ?

 

[Meles]

Big servers like Isner benefit more on slower indoor courts IMO. They take advantage best of the slower bounce allowing them to get into position to hit huge shots. The lack of random elements like wind and sun makes their serve and groundstrokes more consistent. On a fast indoor court theyre more liable to get wrongfooted or jammed, which benefits crafty point constructors. I think a 140 mph serve is 140 mph no matter what the surface is. Fast surface might make it marginally harder to return compared to the advantages slow indoor courts offer to a big guy.

And yet Isner has had strong results on the Guy Fraudget special fast indoor courts (final and SF last year knocking Delpo out of WTF and handily defeating WTF winner Dimitrov).

The hits keeping rolling here with a rash of withdrawals as the players are dropping like flies sometimes just practicing at these crazy speeds:
1. Nadal out
2. Raonic out
3. Fucsovics out today as well
4. Ebden in with a bye for Edmund

Paris needs to forget the Forget experiment and Forget as well. This tournament has been a travesty for Nadal the last two years, plus Isner v Murray and Sock v Krajinovic final last year just a horror show.

 

[Boom-Boom]

Please list the "injuries" these guys sustained on carpet? And consider these are without any question the four greatest-ever players on carpet. What injuries did any of them ever have from playing on carpet, while playing cumulatively hundreds of matches on that surface?

aha exactly

BRING BACK CARPET (and wood)

 

[BHud]

Season WAY too long...drop Paris and end with WTF by November 1st. Nobody gives a shat (including the players) at this point!

 

[Otacon]

Paris Bercy should move to February, it would be perfect, but it's a game of musical chairs with other tournaments and it's complicated I guess.

 

[IowaGuy]

The hits keeping rolling here with a rash of withdrawals as the players are dropping like flies sometimes just practicing at these crazy speeds:

I thought slower courts made players more prone to injury, due to the longer points and grinding involved?

 

[Meles]

I thought slower courts made players more prone to injury, due to the longer points and grinding involved?

Seems to only apply to ancienterer types. I just report what I see and a lot of player go down after playing on fast surfaces. Fed, Wawa, Murray, and Djoko all have dropped post Wimbledon in recent years.

Goffin tripped over tarp at RG and out. Zverev this year played three straight long five setters and had leg injury. Nadal 2016 pulled RG, but for such an injury prone player I think 2009 was the only other time for him on clay. Hard courts are the most grueling surface because its not as easy to break as clay so you don't often have lopsided sets so that tends to make the matches longer.

Saw TTW member who plays on carpet in Germany say it was terrrible for injuries (fast surface). Fedal pretty much up in smoke at the end of last year on fast hard. Now they're dropping like flies in Paris. Fast surfaces may be the most dangerous for injury because they are inherently more slippery.

 

[IowaGuy]

Hard courts are the most grueling surface because its not as easy to break as clay so you don't often have lopsided sets so that tends to make the matches longer.

Is there any data on average length of match, by court surface? (normalized for best of 3 or best of 5, of course)

 

[Meles]

Is there any data on average length of match, by court surface? (normalized for best of 3 or best of 5, of course)

Well you have the 5 hour and 45 minute Djoko v Nada Auz final. Nothing to compare at RG. Wimbledon matches can be deservedly long for servebot types, but generally shortest match times.
@Gary Duane might have data and is quick to point out that clay is not as grueling as it seems because often sets are lopsided as serve not as dominated and better player from ground can run wild on both serve and return.

 

[Gary Duane]

Well you have the 5 hour and 45 minute Djoko v Nada Auz final. Nothing to compare at RG. Wimbledon matches can be deservedly long for servebot types, but generally shortest match times.
@Gary Duane might have data and is quick to point out that clay is not as grueling as it seems because often sets are lopsided as serve not as dominated and better player from ground can run wild on both serve and return.

I don't have data on times, but I can tell you this for a fact:

Game% on clay is highest, lowest on grass, in the middle on HC. In other words, the margins at which top players win (and all players most likely) are highest on clay, which is why you can't compare AS stats of guys like Borg and Nadal to other players and get a reasonable idea of how dominant they were. Certainly points must be shorter on grass, on average, but logically there are going to be fewer games on clay per match, since there will be more bagels and breadsticks there. So we have to balance that against longer points, I think. Longer points, but fewer points. How that balances out re time I have no idea.

Has any research been done on that?

There difference in % of games is not huge, so my guess would be that the shortest matches might happen on grass. But I think we are guessing longest matches on HCs because of a few outliers, which may or may not an accurate indicator.

I'd be interested in what the answer to this is.

 

[Gary Duane]

Big servers like Isner benefit more on slower indoor courts IMO. They take advantage best of the slower bounce allowing them to get into position to hit huge shots. The lack of random elements like wind and sun makes their serve and groundstrokes more consistent. On a fast indoor court theyre more liable to get wrongfooted or jammed, which benefits crafty point constructors. I think a 140 mph serve is 140 mph no matter what the surface is. Fast surface might make it marginally harder to return compared to the advantages slow indoor courts offer to a big guy.

Isner, grass, career, service game% = 94%, but 91% on HC and clay.

Roanic, 88% on clay, 91% on HC, 94% on grass.

Anderson: 84% on clay, 87% on HC, 89% on grass.

Isner is unusually successful on clay serving, but still much better on grass.

All these big men lose their serving advantage by losing percentage on return.

The difference between clay and grass seems to be greater than "marginally harder to return".

 

[Red Rick]

But how can it be a horror show if Thiem wins 77% of points on his first serve?

Nishi obliterated Anderson in the 2nd set today. Amazing to watch.

 

[PeteD]

Grass needs to just become part of the history of tennis and get rid of it all together.
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I don't think so . . . grass offers unique opportunities . . .

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Ne'er learn Meles. Isner and Anderson knocked out. They both got as far as they did at Wimbledon BECAUSE it was slow and high bouncing this year. Isner's kick serve was unplayable at Wimbledon this year. But on a fast court, they will get hold of far fewer returns of the opponent as they are big and slow.

 

[BGod]

Downgrade Paris to 500, upgrade Halle to a Masters. Downgrade Canada to 500 and upgrade Basel to Masters.

Yes I know people will cry Federer but he's only getting older, it will absolutely be a legacy push for the GOAT but he more than deserves it, plus it actually make sense to do it as well.

 

[duaneeo]

Shanghai is the out-of-place tournament. There's no reason to have an outdoor hard Masters after the US Open.

 

[Meles]

But how can it be a horror show if Thiem wins 77% of points on his first serve?

Nishi obliterated Anderson in the 2nd set today. Amazing to watch.

LOL. The QFs are pretty awesome. Khach pulled one of his nether regions today against Izzy otherwise draw has a very different complexion.

Nishikori has the talent to beat everyone, but he is too kind to his fans and plays too much. This year an oddity where he was not able to play full schedule due to pathetic play early in comeback; peak Nishikori is upon the world.

 

[Meles]

Downgrade Paris to 500, upgrade Halle to a Masters. Downgrade Canada to 500 and upgrade Basel to Masters.

Yes I know people will cry Federer but he's only getting older, it will absolutely be a legacy push for the GOAT but he more than deserves it, plus it actually make sense to do it as well.

Most fraudulent post of all time; you still got it BGod.

 

[metsman]

LOL. The QFs are pretty awesome. Khach pulled one of his nether regions today against Izzy otherwise draw has a very different complexion.

Nishikori has the talent to beat everyone, but he is too kind to his fans and plays too much. This year an oddity where he was not able to play full schedule due to pathetic play early in comeback; peak Nishikori is upon the world.

Great time to improve the record against top guys for Nish. What was it again?

 

[Meles]

Great time to improve the record against top guys for Nish. What was it again?

Nishikori should have won the USO already, but they stacked the semis with great Djokovic against him, while Cilic got to breeze past Federer into the final all fresh and well-rested.

 

[metsman]

Nishikori should have won the USO already, but they stacked the semis with great Djokovic against him, while Cilic got to breeze past Federer into the final all fresh and well-rested.

All the stacking I can think of was the stacks of money Federer/Djokovic got from throwing those matches. Not a single oddsmaker expected those two mental midgets to do anything lol.

 

[tennis tom]

''The clay is too slippery'', ''The court is too wet'', ''The clay is too blue''

Yup, Roger and Sirena, who won on Tiriac's blue clay in Madrid, weren't complaining--it was only the losers who were complaining. Bring back the blue clay, it was gorgeous, it wasn't the color that was the problem, it was the new court that was laid during a freeze, that caused the issue. If you want a sleeping pill try watching a match on the pink clay of Roland Garros--there's a reason modern courts are mostly blue. Tiriac should try his blue clay again on maybe a Challenger.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Nishikori should have won the USO already, but they stacked the semis with great Djokovic against him, while Cilic got to breeze past Federer into the final all fresh and well-rested.

Nishi draw was brutal, wawrinka, Raonic, Novak and Fed. He was never going to win.
His chance was reduced further with five setter against Wawarinka and Raonic and tough four setter against Novak.
His draw reminded me of Sampras 2001 us open draw.