Rafa is ahead of Pete on the ATG list

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Who's ahead in the ATG List?


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sportmac

Hall of Fame
Toughest competition: Sampras

In the 11 years from Sampras' first slam in 1991 to his last win in 2002, 16 men won slams.

In the 13 plus years from Fed's first slam in 2003 to now, 10 men won slams.

Sampras time:
Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Hewitt, Kuerten, Agassi, Bruguera, Kafelnikof and Courier all won multiple slams.

Fed time:
Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray and Wawrinka all won multiple slams.

Safin won one during each's time.

(that was a quick count - could have missed something)

To add to this, Nadal's first slam was in 2005. In those 11.5 years 7 players have won slams.

Nadal's time:
Same as Fed's

Sampras' era was tougher.

The era of Fed/Rafa/Djoko didn't have the depth of talent in Sampras/Agassi era.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Actually, I'm pretty sure @Sentinel and @stringertom (to name just a few) are bona fide Federer (and Sureshs) fans, and @Dedans Penthouse gets along just fine with them. I think the problem might be that he is allergic to trolls with low IQ.
His record shows that he supports those fan base, and most of the time he goes after Fed fans.

Clever trollers don't get banned.

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Rafa24

Hall of Fame
To add to this, Nadal's first slam was in 2005. In those 11.5 years 7 players have won slams.

Nadal's time:
Same as Fed's

Sampras' era was tougher.

The era of Fed/Rafa/Djoko didn't have the depth of talent in Sampras/Agassi era.

Disagree.

Only 7 players have won slams because because Rafa, Roger and Novak have dominated and won a combined 44 Slams. Then look at masters 1000s. Those 3 have dominated masters 1000s and have 86 Masters 1000s between the 3. The Era is so good there are a lot of other great players that would have won a slam(s) in any other Era.
 

sportmac

Hall of Fame
Disagree.

Only 7 players have won slams because because Rafa, Roger and Novak have dominated and won a combined 44 Slams. Then look at masters 1000s. Those 3 have dominated masters 1000s and have 86 Masters 1000s between the 3. The Era is so good there are a lot of other great players that would have won a slam(s) in any other Era.
Who in this era would be a Becker, Edberg, etc.? Roddick maybe. Davydenko? Tsonga? Berdych? Tipsaravic? Soderling? Simon?
It's a weak era.
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
Who in this era would be a Becker, Edberg, etc.? Roddick maybe. Davydenko? Tsonga? Berdych? Tipsaravic? Soderling? Simon?
It's a weak era.
A weak era with the 3 best players ever....... Roddick would have won 4-6 if not for The big 3. Murray ring a bell? He would have a ton of slams if not for the big 3. Stanimal? Even Ferrer would have won a few. Berdych and Tsonga would have both won multiple slams if you erase the big 3.

Weird how people on here say this is a "weak era" when the experts call this the strongest era ever. And it is and it's not even close.
 

sportmac

Hall of Fame
A weak era with the 3 best players ever....... Roddick would have won 4-6 if not for The big 3. Murray ring a bell? He would have a ton of slams if not for the big 3. Stanimal? Even Ferrer would have won a few. Berdych and Tsonga would have both won multiple slams if you erase the big 3.

Weird how people on here say this is a "weak era" when the experts call this the strongest era ever. And it is and it's not even close.

Depends on what you call weak. 16 people won slams in the 11 years Sampras played. I'd call that a very strong field. 10 won in the 13.5 years since Fed won his first.

As I posted before:

Sampras time - multiple slam winners:
Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Hewitt, Kuerten, Agassi, Bruguera, Kafelnikof and Courier

Fed/Rafa/Djoko time - multiple slam winners:
Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray and Wawrinka

Doesn't do any good to speculate who MIGHT have won. Shoulda/coulda/woulda.
They didn't.

The argument works both ways. They won so much because of weak competition. I could make the argument Sampras could have won 20 if not for such stiff competition.
 
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CHillTennis

Hall of Fame
Difference is Fed often outplays Nadal, dictating the point but then Rafa will make an unbelievable get and stab his racket at the ball and it just sneaks past Federer who has shown more "calculated" skill.

As for "never too old" Nadal just got worse. Once his physical and age advantage was gone Fed's far superior tennis ability is now shining through. Shame Rafa ducked him for the whole person between 2014 AO and Basel 2015.

As for Fed ducking clay, he's simply returning the favour like when Rafa ducked Fed at every HC slam 04-08, every Wimbledon between 2012-2016, most HC tournaments post Wimbledon etc.

To be fair to Nadal, Roger has had a few losses, during the early part of this decade, where he wasn't able to reach the later rounds of a slam and thus avoided a potential beat-down from Rafa.

In 2010, he lost to Djokovic at the US open in five sets (despite holding two match points.)

Had Federer won the match he would have faced Nadal in the finals. Given their form, at the time, Nadal would have almost certainly won the match.

Ironically, the same exact thing happened in 2011. Where Roger had Novak down two sets to love and still wasn't able to finish him off. I believe he also had two match points in this match, although I could be mistaken.

In 2013, Roger was within one match of playing Nadal, in the quarter-finals of the US Open.
His fourth round opponent, Tommy Robredo, beat Roger in straight sets despite having had a 0-10 record against him going in.

There are probably others, as well, but the point that I'm trying to make is that it wasn't due to a lack of hard court proficiency that Rafael Nadal wasn't able to play Roger Federer more often.

That might have been the case in their early years (2007 and before) since his results could be quite erratic back then.

However, he was more than capable of holding his own against Roger on the faster surfaces, once he had reached his prime years.

Not trying to pick on Roger with this comment but I want to be fair to both players.

Nadal is a very credible hard court player. He has to be or he would never have won the US Open twice.

The same number of times that Agassi, Rafter, and Edberg triumphed there.

He's still in elite company with the results that he's had on hard courts.

But his proficiency on clay dwarfs what he's done on the other surfaces to such an extreme level that's he's often criticized for being overly dominant on one surface.
 
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BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
The way that Sampras is dissed here amazes me. I couldn't stand the guy, but the fact remains he won 7 Wimbledon's, 5 USO's, was #1 twice as long as Nadal and was YE #1 six straight years. He and Rafa had the same amount of majors. Yet some here talk about Pete like he was about on par with Roddick or Hewitt!
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
The way that Sampras is dissed here amazes me. I couldn't stand the guy, but the fact remains he won 7 Wimbledon's, 5 USO's, was #1 twice as long as Nadal and was YE #1 six straight years. He and Rafa had the same amount of majors. Yet some here talk about Pete like he was about on par with Roddick or Hewitt!

Pete was in weak era. Or much weaker than Fed, Nadal and Djoker era for sure. YE#1 was from weak era. No career slam, not even a french final and only 11 masters 1000s.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Not enough skill to beat Rafa. It's like a war. If you lose the war, you were just worse than your opponent, even if you threw the grenades with more style. :D


You seem to not understand the meaning of the word "duck". If you are not playing well and simply lose, you are not "ducking". If you are injured and can't play, you are not "ducking". On the other hand, if you could play an event and decide not to play it because you have to attend a 2nd-rate Royal wedding and are convinced your chances of winning against your opponent are so slim that you decide to not try, THEN you are ducking.

Or, as @Dedans Penthouse would say, "skipping"

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;)


As I said before, you seem to not comprehend the actual meaning of "ducking".

What the duck?

:D

Federer has always been the better tennis player, regardless of how many slow HC or clay wins Nadal has over him.
As for the ducking issue; irrelevant, semantics. Same result.

Nadal losing to mugs like Blake, Youzny, Murrayx2, Ferrerx2, Rosol, Kyrgios, Lopez, Brown etc is worse than Fed skipping the clay season as he's already done his fair share on the dirt.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
World tour finals are completely different than US Open. Slow indoor hard with low bounce. Comparing apples to oranges really.

Rafa was 8-2 on outdoor hard against Fed up until this year and now it's 8-5. He is 1-4 on indoor hard against Fed.

But I would have liked to have seen it one way or another as Rafa beat him in Miami that year in straights and then Fed won at the WTF. But I think Miami is much closer to US open conditions than the conditions at the WTF.
Indoor isn't a surface. Hard courts are 10-9 to Federer with most of those being on slow-medium surfaces.

Fed would be favourite at US open due to the faster surface but by 2011 it wasn't as fast as 05-09 so who knows.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
To be fair to Nadal, Roger has had a few losses, during the early part of this decade, where he wasn't able to reach the later rounds of a slam and thus avoided a potential beat-down from Rafa.

In 2010, he lost to Djokovic at the US open in five sets (despite holding two match points.)

Had Federer won the match he would have faced Nadal in the finals. Given their form, at the time, Nadal would have almost certainly won the match.

Ironically, the same exact thing happened in 2011. Where Roger had Novak down two sets to love and still wasn't able to finish him off. I believe he also had two match points in this match, although I could be mistaken.

In 2013, Roger was within one match of playing Nadal, in the quarter-finals of the US Open.
His fourth round opponent, Tommy Robredo, beat Roger in straight sets despite having had a 0-10 record against him going in.

There are probably others, as well, but the point that I'm trying to make is that it wasn't due to a lack of hard court proficiency that Rafael Nadal wasn't able to play Roger Federer more often.

That might have been the case in their early years (2007 and before) since his results could be quite erratic back then.

However, he was more than capable of holding his own against Roger on the faster surfaces, once he had reached his prime years.

Not trying to pick on Roger with this comment but I want to be fair to both players.

Nadal is a very credible hard court player. He has to be or he would never have won the US Open twice.

The same number of times that Agassi, Rafter, and Edberg triumphed there.

He's still in elite company with the results that he's had on hard courts.

But his proficiency on clay dwarfs what he's done on the other surfaces to such an extreme level that's he's often criticized for being overly dominant on one surface.

It would have been a travesty had their only USO match been any of 2010-2013 (although I give him a great chance in 2011)

And I'll give you 2010-2011.

However Rafa avoided Fed many more times than the other way round. All HC majors 04-08. Every Wimbledon since 2012. Every Cincinatti apart from 2013 (Fed's worst year)

On the other hand, Fed showed up to play Rafa on clay 15 times, including 5 RG and most of these matches being finals. According to some here, Fed would've been better off "tanking" these clay SFs so he'd lead the H2H. Crazy.

Another example: in Rafa's worst year 2015 he avoids Fed at Indian Wells, Cincinatti, Wimbledon, USO. All very likely wins for Federer.

But in Fed's worst year 2013 he still manages to meet Rafa at IW, Rome final, Cincy, WTF SF. That's the difference.
 

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
@metsman my comment wasn't really meant for you just all the others who were sort of mocking his name, like he was a complete nobody. Sorry for the confusion. He actually came closer to winning a French than you would think, had 3 set points vs Chang in the 89 semis to go up 2 sets to love. It was a very physical 4 setter, over 4 hours. I think had he won that match, it wouldn't have been a big shock if he beat Edberg in the final, he was sort of the perfect player for 80s claycourt tennis, never got tired, could run down everything, and attack short balls. He was actually among the favorites for the 90 RG title. I mentioned it in the thread for the Davis cup match, why was it deleted? Makes me not want to post in this section anymore.

I have his match with wilander at 86 RG, there were several rallies of over 50 strokes! He sort of out wilandered wilander, which not many could do.
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
Indoor isn't a surface. Hard courts are 10-9 to Federer with most of those being on slow-medium surfaces.

Fed would be favourite at US open due to the faster surface but by 2011 it wasn't as fast as 05-09 so who knows.
Fed would not have been the favorite at the US Open in 2011. He wasn't even the Favorite in Melbourne this year even though Nadal hadn't won a slam in nearly 3 years. They've met 4x in Hardcourt slams and Rafa is up 3-1.

I've seen you say "indoor hard isn't a surface before". Go look at their rivalry stats on wiki it is indeed broken down by, Clay, Grass, Outdoor Hardcourt and Indoor Hardcourt. Indoor Hardcourt is suited to Feds game.

"An important distinction is the relative success of the two players on indoor and outdoor hard courts. In the former, Federer leads Nadal with a 5–1 record, while on outdoor hard courts, Nadal leads 8–5. The quicker conditions and low bounce of the indoor hard courts fit Federer's style, while the slower and high bouncing conditions of most outdoor ones favor Nadal."


Enjoy the indoor hardcourt slams......
 

California

Semi-Pro
The way that Sampras is dissed here amazes me. I couldn't stand the guy, but the fact remains he won 7 Wimbledon's, 5 USO's, was #1 twice as long as Nadal and was YE #1 six straight years. He and Rafa had the same amount of majors. Yet some here talk about Pete like he was about on par with Roddick or Hewitt!

I agree. People have short memories and think what they saw most recently is the best and everything else is garbage. Pete was truly a great player, I don't think he gets the credit he deserves.

I just have one question, do people really think Nadal would have won Wimbledon in the 90's on fast grass? I know this is slightly off topic but I look forward to seeing the replies...
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
I agree. People have short memories and think what they saw most recently is the best and everything else is garbage. Pete was truly a great player, I don't think he gets the credit he deserves.

I just have one question, do people really think Nadal would have won Wimbledon in the 90's on fast grass? I know this is slightly off topic but I look forward to seeing the replies...
Would Pete have won in the 70s with wood racquets? Who cares. The players play with the equipment available and play on the surfaces that are there.
 

California

Semi-Pro
Would Pete have won in the 70s with wood racquets? Who cares. The players play with the equipment available and play on the surfaces that are there.

Actually yes, Pete probably would have won with a wood racquet in the 70's, he had the classic game for it and played with a somewhat similar racquet to a wood racquet. Guess you didn't like the question... I thought it would be interesting to hear others thoughts on the topic. Thanks for yours.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Fed would not have been the favorite at the US Open in 2011. He wasn't even the Favorite in Melbourne this year even though Nadal hadn't won a slam in nearly 3 years. They've met 4x in Hardcourt slams and Rafa is up 3-1.

I've seen you say "indoor hard isn't a surface before". Go look at their rivalry stats on wiki it is indeed broken down by, Clay, Grass, Outdoor Hardcourt and Indoor Hardcourt. Indoor Hardcourt is suited to Feds game.

"An important distinction is the relative success of the two players on indoor and outdoor hard courts. In the former, Federer leads Nadal with a 5–1 record, while on outdoor hard courts, Nadal leads 8–5. The quicker conditions and low bounce of the indoor hard courts fit Federer's style, while the slower and high bouncing conditions of most outdoor ones favor Nadal."


Enjoy the indoor hardcourt slams......

In other words indoor tennis suits the better more skilled player as it doesn't rely on "moonballs" to one handed backhand and running side to side.

In reality Nadal faced a much declined past his best Federer in all their HC slam matches. Had he not been owned by Gonzalez in 07 he would've comprehensively lost to Fed.

I said he'd be my favourite as the courts are quicker.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
The way that Sampras is dissed here amazes me. I couldn't stand the guy, but the fact remains he won 7 Wimbledon's, 5 USO's, was #1 twice as long as Nadal and was YE #1 six straight years. He and Rafa had the same amount of majors. Yet some here talk about Pete like he was about on par with Roddick or Hewitt!

To be fair, some talk of Nadal like he were Muster as well!

Sampras gets dissed mostly by people who saw little of his play, I speculate

Nadal gets dissed by people who 'hate' him for whatever reason - also gets fawned on by people who 'love' him for whatever reason.



I just have one question, do people really think Nadal would have won Wimbledon in the 90's on fast grass? I know this is slightly off topic but I look forward to seeing the replies...

That's a great question.

I don't know is the short answer!

longer answer - I think his game would have developed differently had he been of that era. Nadal's flexibility is amazing.

Frankly, I didn't think he could win Wimbledon in this era - neither did Federer, who commented on how surprised he was to see Rafa in the final in 06 - but he adapted and in 2008, was playing as well on grass as even Federer ever has.

In 2010 US Open, Nadal - the Ken Rosewall server - was suddenly bombing down aces and service winners like Pete Sampras himself.

I am confident that Nadal would have done very well coming to net regularly if circumstances had pushed him to it. McEnroe might go a tad overboard with his volleying skills - but they are very good and if he needed to, I think he could have adapted to be a fine serve-volleyer

Gist - Nadal was adaptable enough to adjust to 90s grass and do well at Wimbledon, with the equipment that would have been available to him - of that I have no doubt

Whether he could win
against Pete Sampras, whose grass court prowess was I dare say as high as anyone's ever, is another matter.

He may have snuck a title in but I don't think he could have done much about Sampras' routine domination at the venue.

Long answer - He'd do well, certainly wouldn't fall flat on his face like the clay courters of that epoch did - but he'd need some luck to actually snag a title

What do you think? Your posts suggest you don't think he'd have any chance at all?
 
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mika1979

Professional
It isnt clear cut. Whilst Nadal is so very very great on clay he has struggled elsewhere at times. Sampras was undisputedly the goat when he retired. In Nadal's favour is that the top end of men's tennis is much stronger than during sampras's time. If Fed is the goat, both djokovic and nadal are very close to him in terms of ability which can't be said for sampras's time
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Yep. Federer and Djokovic's clay peaks have been very high. In particular for Fed I think Rome 06, Hamburg 07, RG 06, 09 & 11. Djokovic 2011 Rome, 2013 MC, 2013 RG etc. Both unfortunate to come against such a phenomenon on clay but both deserved winners of their sole RG title.

Nadal has had great HC peaks but sadly couldn't reach Fed often post Wimbledon or at all between 04-07 at the grand slams (or even 08 - 09 USO).
What you say here is true.

It would be highly disrespectful towards Fed and Djokovic to state that both of them are mediocre clay courters, just because they lost to Rafa at RG enough times between to give their fans PTSD.

They are both superb clay players, right up there with the very best. It's not their fault that they had to go up against the force of nature that is Claydal. A RU at the RG against the CGOAT is an achievement in itself.

It's would be like Nadal fans saying that Nadal sucks on grass and HCs just to claim that Federer and Djokovic had no competition on those surfaces. Like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

And also, surely I'm not the only one who sees the irony in claiming that clay is uncompetitive, when Federer's best slam is held on grass...
 
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Bender

G.O.A.T.
The way that Sampras is dissed here amazes me. I couldn't stand the guy, but the fact remains he won 7 Wimbledon's, 5 USO's, was #1 twice as long as Nadal and was YE #1 six straight years. He and Rafa had the same amount of majors. Yet some here talk about Pete like he was about on par with Roddick or Hewitt!
That's what 90's Clay does to any player he supports.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
To add to this, Nadal's first slam was in 2005. In those 11.5 years 7 players have won slams.

Nadal's time:
Same as Fed's

Sampras' era was tougher.

The era of Fed/Rafa/Djoko didn't have the depth of talent in Sampras/Agassi era.

Or the top players in Sampras era were weaker and couldn't fend off all those other players. I think this is more likely to be true considering that there wasn't a single dominating player on clay. There's other flaws in your logic like counting Hewitt as part of Sampras's era but not Federer's - regardless of when Lleyton won his majors he was more a rival of Federer than Sampras.
 

sportmac

Hall of Fame
Or the top players in Sampras era were weaker and couldn't fend off all those other players. I think this is more likely to be true considering that there wasn't a single dominating player on clay. There's other flaws in your logic like counting Hewitt as part of Sampras's era but not Federer's - regardless of when Lleyton won his majors he was more a rival of Federer than Sampras.

Really? A list of hall of famers and they're weak to you? A list of multiple slam winners and they're weak because there were too many of them?

Flaws in logic? You think a single dominating player on one surface makes for a strong era?

Hewitt doesn't belong in Fed's group because he won multiple slams before Fed's first. That''s like Lendl doesn't get in Sampras' group, or McEnroe. Here, I'll post it again. Note the importance of the years:

Sampras time - 11 years between first slam and last - multiple slam winners DURING THOSE YEARS:
Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Hewitt, Kuerten, Agassi, Bruguera, Kafelnikof and Courier

Fed 13.5 years between first slam and now - multiple slam winners DURING THOSE YEARS:
Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray and Wawrinka


Coulda/shoulda/woulda. The weak era is now. There hasn't been competition for these guys in over a decade. They were dominant in their early 20's and they're still dominant in their early 30's. That is a weak field by any measurement.
 
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NatF

Bionic Poster
Really? A list of hall of famers and they're weak to you? A list of multiple slam winners and they're weak because there were too many of them?

Flaws in logic? You think a single dominating player on one surface makes for a strong era? You think a guy who was at his best and won slams doesn't count because he continued to play at a lower level in someone else's time?

I'm counting only the slams won during their era. Becker won 6 slams, 3 of them after Sampras won his first. All those multiple slam winners won multiple slams while they were competing with either Sampras of Fed. Fed doesn't get credit for Hewitt because he played against him. No slams were won. It's pretty self explanatory. That whole year range I explained.

Coulda/shoulda/woulda. The weak era is now. There hasn't been competition for these guys in over a decade. They were dominant in their early 20's and they're still dominant in their early 30's. That is a weak field by any measurement.

You're chatting nonsense. As per usual from what I've seen.

Agassi was a 3 time major winner for most of Sampras's prime, he spent as much time outside the top 20 as he did as a top 4 player. Obviously if there's only one dominant player on the scene that opens up more opportunities for slam wins for other players. And I would think a dominating player on one surface makes it harder for others to sneak in and win slams. The 90's didn't have a Borg or Nadal, not even a Lendl or Wilander. No ATG's excelled on clay during that decade. Which makes a difference for the field.

For one starting the count from 1990 when Sampras won his first slam is a bit silly. He didn't even make another slam final for another 2 years. You're counting players that were barely in his era and could only by the loosest definition count as his competition. Essentially you're choosing arbitrary ranges that benefit Sampras. Both Edberg and Becker were clearly past their best by 1993 when Sampras hit his prime. The overlap was very small. Becker won just one major after 1991. Jim Courier was done as a top contender after 1993, the first year of Sampras' prime. The early 90's were definitely strong but the bulk of Sampras' prime and peak were devoid of his best rival and the guys you're using to prop up that era were mostly done before he even peaked. Not to mention considering Sampras' record on clay claiming those dirtballers were his competition is absolutely hilarious.

Federer doesn't get credit for fighting off Hewitt but Sampras does? Ok got it. Hewitt was playing his most consistent and best tennis in the majors during 04-05. You going for the record of stupid comments before lunch or something? If Federer had lost early at the 2004 USO, or 2006 AO and 2006 Wimbledon etc...there would be more slam winners right? Or perhaps if there was no Nadal and Federer was going out in the first round of the FO frequently we'd see a deeper and more competitive clay field :D

Looks like Sampras fans need to a sign a waiver when they join the club, leaving logic and sense at the door.
 

sportmac

Hall of Fame
You're chatting nonsense. As per usual from what I've seen.

Agassi was a 3 time major winner for most of Sampras's prime, he spent as much time outside the top 20 as he did as a top 4 player. Obviously if there's only one dominant player on the scene that opens up more opportunities for slam wins for other players. And I would think a dominating player on one surface makes it harder for others to sneak in and win slams. The 90's didn't have a Borg or Nadal, not even a Lendl or Wilander. No ATG's excelled on clay during that decade. Which makes a difference for the field.

For one starting the count from 1990 when Sampras won his first slam is a bit silly. He didn't even make another slam final for another 2 years. You're counting players that were barely in his era and could only by the loosest definition count as his competition. Essentially you're choosing arbitrary ranges that benefit Sampras. Both Edberg and Becker were clearly past their best by 1993 when Sampras hit his prime. The overlap was very small. Becker won just one major after 1991. Jim Courier was done as a top contender after 1993, the first year of Sampras' prime. The early 90's were definitely strong but the bulk of Sampras' prime and peak were devoid of his best rival and the guys you're using to prop up that era were mostly done before he even peaked. Not to mention considering Sampras' record on clay claiming those dirtballers were his competition is absolutely hilarious.

Federer doesn't get credit for fighting off Hewitt but Sampras does? Ok got it. Hewitt was playing his most consistent and best tennis in the majors during 04-05. You going for the record of stupid comments before lunch or something? If Federer had lost early at the 2004 USO, or 2006 AO and 2006 Wimbledon etc...there would be more slam winners right? Or perhaps if there was no Nadal and Federer was going out in the first round of the FO frequently we'd see a deeper and more competitive clay field :D

Looks like Sampras fans need to a sign a waiver when they join the club, leaving logic and sense at the door.
"You're chatting nonsense. As per usual from what I've seen." "You going for the record of stupid comments before lunch or something? "

Yeah, I'll play statistics and argue talent and generations because it's fun. I can have heated, knock down arguments with people and then turn around and completely agree with them on something else.

What I won't do is this childish nonsense of personal attacks because we disagree.

It's just not that important. So, I'm not playing anymore. You win.
 
D

Deleted member 3771

Guest
No one is ahead of Sampras, since he was the best of his era by a mile. Laver said it best:

"Who is the greatest player of all time? I think no one. When you look at these players, you can put them in only an Era, you can be World No. 1 in your own era."
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
"You're chatting nonsense. As per usual from what I've seen." "You going for the record of stupid comments before lunch or something? "

Yeah, I'll play statistics and argue talent and generations because it's fun. I can have heated, knock down arguments with people and then turn around and completely agree with them on something else.

What I won't do is this childish nonsense of personal attacks because we disagree.

It's just not that important. So, I'm not playing anymore. You win.

I'd rather have childish personal attacks than childish logic ;)

16b8189053177965695f847ecfd447be45739ce71a3cadb0fa3765ebd5649334.jpg


It's not like I insulted you that badly anyway :D
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
What you say here is true.

It would be highly disrespectful towards Fed and Djokovic to state that both of them are mediocre clay courters, just because they lost to Rafa at RG enough times between to give their fans PTSD.

They are both superb clay players, right up there with the very best. It's not their fault that they had to go up against the force of nature that is Claydal. A RU at the RG against the CGOAT is an achievement in itself.

It's would be like Nadal fans saying that Nadal sucks on grass and HCs just to claim that Federer and Djokovic had no competition on those surfaces. Like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

There's quite a bit of space in-between considering Fed and Novak mediocre on clay and up there with the very best, they're great on clay (and worthy competition) but that doesn't mean they're 2nd only to Nadal on it. I don't think they're for example as good as Guga (who straight-setted peak Fed in 2004) or Borg at their best on clay, Nadal or no Nadal. Nor do I see them as 5 time FO winners in any era. If anything it would be disrespectful to consider players like Courier (very underrated on clay), Bruguera and Muster (or going back further, Lendl and Wilander) to be some chumps Fed and Novak would easily dispose of because of their majestic FO plate collection.

Players that would have achieved more if not for greats blocking them are dime a dozen, that doesn't mean you start awarding them virtual trophies instead of plates. Ivanisevic and Roddick for example would have been multiple Wimbleodon champions if not for Sampras and Fed, that doesn't mean they're suddenly equal to McEnroe on grass. Not to mention Murray and his 11 slam finals, 8 of them lost to Novak and Fed, that doesn't make him Lendl and Agassi's historical equal all of a sudden. But hey in another era he might have won all of those 11 slam finals which means he has to be up there with Borg and Sampras, I'm really underrating him here and devaluating Novak and Fed's slam wins over him in the process.

Don't see how not considering either Novak and Fed to be the 2nd coming of Borg on clay affects Nadal to any serious degree at this point, the guy has 9 FOs and will soon have 10 barring a one in a lifetime upset. At this point he's the best CC player (and the best player on any single surface) ever regardless of what anyone says.

And also, surely I'm not the only one who sees the irony in claiming that clay is uncompetitive, when Federer's best slam is held on grass...

What irony? Both clay and grass are uncompetitive compared to HC in the 2000s, it's a HC era and has been for quite a while (and it's not like Nadal didn't achieve a lot on HC so I'm not undermining his career here). Wimbledon has more upset potential because of big servers but then again Fed struggled in early rounds in exactly 1 ouf of his 10 Wimbledon finals (2012) so it's not like that works against him (heck, it probably helps him because his biggest rivals can lose earlier).
 
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Bender

G.O.A.T.
There's quite a bit of space in-between considering Fed and Novak mediocre on clay and up there with the very best, they're great on clay (and worthy competition) but that doesn't mean they're 2nd only to Nadal on it. I don't think they're for example as good as Guga (who straight-setted peak Fed in 2004) or Borg at their best on clay, Nadal or no Nadal. Nor do I see them as 5 time FO winners in any era. If anything it would be disrespectful to consider players like Courier (very underrated on clay), Bruguera and Muster (or going back further, Lendl and Wilander) to be some chumps Fed and Novak would easily dispose of because of their majestic FO plate collection.

Players that would have achieved more if not for greats blocking them are dime a dozen, that doesn't mean you start awarding them virtual trophies instead of plates. Ivanisevic and Roddick for example would have been multiple Wimbleodon champions if not for Sampras and Fed, that doesn't mean they're suddenly equal to McEnroe on grass. Not to mention Murray and his 11 slam finals, 8 of them lost to Novak and Fed, that doesn't make him Lendl and Agassi's historical equal all of a sudden. But hey in another era he might have won all of those 11 slam finals which means he has to be up there with Borg and Sampras, I'm really underrating him here and devaluating Novak and Fed's slam wins over him in the process.

Don't see how not considering either Novak and Fed to be the 2nd coming of Borg on clay affects Nadal to any serious degree at this point, the guy has 9 FOs and will soon have 10 barring a one in a lifetime upset. At this point he's the best CC player (and the best player on any single surface) ever regardless of what anyone says.
Of course we cannot be gifting free slam titles to Federer and Djokovic in Nadal's absence, but I while I consider them as being up there with some of the very best, I did not say that they're second best only to Nadal. Nor I do not want to get into whether they are better or worse than XYZ. The assumption is that without Nadal, both Djokovic and Federer may very well have more than one RG each, and few people would seriously claim them to be mediocre on the surface. How many more, if any, was not the focus, but rather the fact that people's perception of how good a player is / was on a particular surface or at a tournament can get twisted greatly by their ratio of finals appearances v finals converted.
What irony? Both clay and grass are uncompetitive compared to HC in the 2000s, it's a HC era and has been for quite a while (and it's not like Nadal didn't achieve a lot on HC so I'm not undermining his career here). Wimbledon has more upset potential because of big servers but then again Fed struggled in early rounds in exactly 1 ouf of his 10 Wimbledon finals (2012) so it's not like that works against him (heck, it probably helps him because his biggest rivals can lose earlier).
That's exactly the irony that I was pointing out. The fact that a Federer fan should dismiss Nadal's clay resume over Sampras' grass resume because clay has no competition, when grass for the last decade has been equally as uncompetitive, if not even more uncompetitive due to the lack of grass tournaments and by extension grass specialists.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Of course we cannot be gifting free slam titles to Federer and Djokovic in Nadal's absence, but I while I consider them as being up there with some of the very best, I did not say that they're second best only to Nadal. Nor I do not want to get into whether they are better or worse than XYZ. The assumption is that without Nadal, both Djokovic and Federer may very well have more than one RG each, and few people would seriously claim them to be mediocre on the surface. How many more, if any, was not the focus, but rather the fact that people's perception of how good a player is / was on a particular surface or at a tournament can get twisted greatly by their ratio of finals appearances v finals converted.

Who called them mediocre and what would be the definition of mediocre? Say two time FO winners which I could see them as in previous eras is far from mediocre for my money.

That's exactly the irony that I was pointing out. The fact that a Federer fan should dismiss Nadal's clay resume over Sampras' grass resume because clay has no competition, when grass for the last decade has been equally as uncompetitive, if not even more uncompetitive due to the lack of grass tournaments and by extension grass specialists.

Well it's not like Pete's grass competition was that stellar. His main rival was Goran (even though no one mentions him first), very talented grass court specialist but also a bit of a headcase (to say the least). Agassi was not equipped to challenge Sampras on grass (despite their 1993 five setter) and other big names people like to throw around were either past their best at that point or haven't even faced Sampras on grass. There's Rafter I guess, but he was at his best on HC.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Who called them mediocre and what would be the definition of mediocre? Say two time FO winners which I could see them as in previous eras is far from mediocre for my money.



Well it's not like Pete's grass competition was that stellar. His main rival was Goran (even though no one mentions him first), very talented grass court specialist but also a bit of a headcase (to say the least). Agassi was not equipped to challenge Sampras on grass (despite their 1993 five setter) and other big names people like to throw around were either past their best at that point or haven't even faced Sampras on grass. There's Rafter I guess, but he was at his best on HC.

I think you need to read the post I was referring to, rather than taking my post in isolation. It would address both parts of your reply.

Edit: here it is
If OP wants to talk about competition...

Sampras had to compete with grass specialists to win Wimbledon. Nadal had a disturbing lack of clay specialists competing with him for RG, they all vanished or got injured when he arrived on scene. Federer/Djokovic had to take up the mantle of facing Nadal at RG, while they are HC or grass specialists (explains the inflated H2H's, but that's another story).

Sampras had it tougher.
He doesn't say 'mediocre' outright but it's pretty much what is being implied here. Or at least not as good as the grass competition in sampras' day, which as you say was not stellar either.
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
Some observations.

1) 140 extra weeks at number 1 + being best player of an era + 5 extra WTFs + 5 titles at two different majors >>>> career grand slam + best record at any single major + 15 extra masters

2) i have never seen any definitive analysis showing that one era is weaker or stronger than another. Only subjective opinions on both sides.

To me therefore, there isn't even an argument that Nadal is greater than Sampras.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Fed also has had TUEs. It is perfectly legal. What about Dr. Fuentes? Do you know anything nobody else does?

But if you go that route, think about the odds of any tennis player coming out of the blue after an extended injury and winning his first sam in 5 years. At age 35. Not very likely by "normal means"*

As a matter of fact, that is so out of the ordinary, that if it doesn't raise a few red flags then you are not being objective.
Rusty, you forgot we are talking about Federer, the GOAT... he does whatever he wants on the court with all players, except peak Djokodal, in which case he generally would let Soderling, Wawrinka or some Querrey dude to do the job before annihilating them.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Sampras' weeks at No1 and YE No1s are a weak argument since he had the likes of grass only specialist Ivanisevic, Agassi (except for 1996-99 were Sampras gained most of his No1 accolades), Geriatric Becker, Pioline, Kafelnikov and Martin. Nadal on the other hand, was at a record number of weeks at No2 (2005-09) because of GOATerer. Then from 2011+ there was Djokovic. If Nadal had the mugs Sampras had, he'd be sitting on 300 weeks at No1.
 

spirit95

Professional
There is no universally accepted rule that the supposed greatest player of one "era" is automatically greater than the second-greatest player of a different era.

But there IS an accepted rule about deciding who is taller than who. Stand them side by side and just look. Ergo analogo no worko

The difference between Sampras and Nadal is that at one time Sampras was clearly the greatest player of the open era. No one could ever say that about Nadal.
 
Why would you be concerned?
As long as you are either a Sampras, Serena or Nadal fans, do whatever you want and he doesn't mind.
^ this from the person who's to "tennis 101" what Paris Hilton is to Kepler’s Laws of Planetary Motion? .That's rich.

v read the below and learn my little one-track-mind fanboy.
tumblr_n26sevIoTr1t04x43o1_250.gif

Actually, I'm pretty sure @Sentinel and @stringertom (to name just a few) are bona fide Federer (and Sureshs) fans, and @Dedans Penthouse gets along just fine with them.
I think the problem might be that he is allergic to trolls with low IQ.
 

Thundergod

Hall of Fame
This best of an era/weeks #1 argument is so asinine. People are really penalizing Nadal for having the GOAT in the early part of his prime and then a potential top 5 of all time at the tail end of his prime? No one in Pete's time has a fraction of the year-long consistency those 2 have. He still has a healthy amount of weeks at #1.

You might has well call the best player of the 1930s better than Nadal too.
 
timnz who is a Fed fan and is a respectful poster, but you once dissed him.

There are many arrogant Sampras, Nadal and Serena fanboy/fangirl at TTW.
- . I like and respect timnz . -. you must've been thinking of jimnz.

- . of course there are some arrogant Sampras, Nadal and Serena fanboys/fangirls lurking about at TTW . - . but that doesn't make me one of them.​
 
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Some observations.

1) 140 extra weeks at number 1 + being best player of an era + 5 extra WTFs + 5 titles at two different majors >>>> career grand slam + best record at any single major + 15 extra masters

2) i have never seen any definitive analysis showing that one era is weaker or stronger than another. Only subjective opinions on both sides.

To me therefore, there isn't even an argument that Nadal is greater than Sampras.
Why does having 5 titles at 2 different majors mean more than actually having a Career Grand Slam? If you think having too many majors at one slam is detrimental, how detrimental is it to have ZERO slams at an event?
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
I will say this. If Nadal wins this RG, and then goes onto end the year number one, I will put him ahead.

Nadal, coming in at 31, has had a slam drought now for a couple of years, very similar to Sampras at the same age. So, winning the RG title, for me would be equivalent to Sampras winning his last USO at the same age. Now, despite Nadal being one slam ahead, Pete's superior number one stats and year end number one for me keeps him equal with Nadal. However, if Rafa goes onto capture the YE1 I will put him ahead.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I will say this. If Nadal wins this RG, and then goes onto end the year number one, I will put him ahead.

Nadal, coming in at 31, has had a slam drought now for a couple of years, very similar to Sampras at the same age. So, winning the RG title, for me would be equivalent to Sampras winning his last USO at the same age. Now, despite Nadal being one slam ahead, Pete's superior number one stats and year end number one for me keeps him equal with Nadal. However, if Rafa goes onto capture the YE1 I will put him ahead.
Welcome back :) One of the best Djokovic fans around. ;)
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
Why does having 5 titles at 2 different majors mean more than actually having a Career Grand Slam? If you think having too many majors at one slam is detrimental, how detrimental is it to have ZERO slams at an event?

in the entire 100+ year history of tennis, only three different men have won 5 majors at two different events. Federer, Borg and Sampras. Nadal is not even close. 5+5 is an incredibly rare and difficult feat, and shows total mastery of two different sets of conditions.

to me this feat, along with the extra weeks at number 1, the extra YECs, and being the undisputed best player of an era, more than makes up for the missing French.
 
in the entire 100+ year history of tennis, only three different men have won 5 majors at two different events. Federer, Borg and Sampras. Nadal is not even close. 5+5 is an incredibly rare and difficult feat, and shows total mastery of two different sets of conditions.

to me this feat, along with the extra weeks at number 1, the extra YECs, and being the undisputed best player of an era, more than makes up for the missing French.
Well, "two different sets of conditions" for Borg means grass and clay, which indeed is impressive. HC and grass? PFFFFF.

How many players have won 9 mayors in the same event, PLUS the Career Grand Slam?

;)
 
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