Tennis strokes and tennis volley means nothing in pickleball doubles

[ByeByePoly]

OK … this is what this past 4.5 singles and doubles tennis player sees watching the 5.0 doubles play in video below. I see a completely different skill set.

Tennis doubles:
- serve can be offense
- tennis strokes matter on return of serve, and in one up one back cross court
- volleys are body/stance/turned assisted using pace of incoming ball to block/punch volley

Higher level pb:
- serve just gets point started … deep with any technique
- ros just gets returner to kitchen … return with any technique
- then server gets to kitchen
- from here point will be decided with all 4 at kitchen dinking, reflex volleying, put away when you can

Here is what I see as the pb skills that probably determines pb level:
- dinking with no damage done … don’t leave high enough for put away
- not a body/stance assisted volley in pb … instead it’s arming skills without body turn … stay nipples to the net
- while nipples to the net, arm/hand/eye “arming” skills to reflex/return opponent kitchen hit
- other very important skill is the ability to lean forward and take a ball in the air and arm a put away that was left to high (my guess is this will be the skill I enjoy the least coming from tennis)

Note: we use “arming” as a pejorative in tennis, and in the ttw tips and technique section. The reason is proper high level tennis strokes from the baseline involve body rotation, including setting feet in different stances (not two feet forward at the kitchen). I’m not using it as a pejorative here for Pickleball doubles at the kitchen … just attempting to observe the important skillsets required for higher level pb doubles. To my eyes/observation … there is simply no time or need for body assistance in the kitchen in air reflex battle. Said another way … if a tennis player doesn’t stop trying to get into tennis volley stance, and if he doesn’t get good at “arming” skills including that uncomfortable looking lean put away … he won’t win at higher levels. His superior tennis topspin fh, or 1hbh slice means nothing. Everything before all four at the kitchen is just foreplay.

I see some of tennis apply to singles. Mainly on passing shots, and what would be a first volley by a tennis s&v player from the service line (accepts everything becomes a swinging volley). Then once at the kitchen … pretty much reverts to pb doubles nipples to the net arming skills. Also in singles … good hands and deception in dink game can win some points because not two guys to cover kitchen on other side.

Anyway … my initial thoughts before I have played much. It will be interesting to see what I think after a couple of months of play.

What say you that have played both tennis and Pickleball. What did I get wrong, what did I get right?

 

[1HBHfanatic]

-IMO/IME it's a comparable skill set, but weight/force is the key factor
-after all, its a very lite plastic ball technique vs a heavy rubber ball technique
-little effort is needed to send a pickleball over that net, from that close of a distance as the kitchen line
-tennis balls are much heavier and NEED proper body weight transfer to counter the force and send it over !!
-being " in a balanced solid/stance" + "good shoulder turn" = winning a volley matchup
-i think you are correct in the assumption that "cross over foot steps" are not as needed in PB as in tennis, but they do help WHEN ONE HAS TIME!!

 

[ByeByePoly]

-IMO/IME it's a comparable skill set, but weight/force is the key factor
-after all, its a very lite plastic ball technique vs a heavy rubber ball technique
-little effort is needed to send a pickleball over that net, from that close of a distance as the kitchen line
-tennis balls are much heavier and NEED proper body weight transfer to counter the force and send it over !!
-being " in a balanced solid/stance" + "good shoulder turn" = winning a volley matchup
-i think you are correct in the assumption that "cross over foot steps" are not as needed in PB as in tennis, but they do help WHEN ONE HAS TIME!!

yes … the pace and weight of the tennis ball dictates body rotation assistance. Also you have the time in tennis. When I watch the 5.0 play above … there is zero prep time on the mutual blasts.

In the pb singles … my tennis s&v kicks in and I see the similarities. Flat dtl pass, add some topspin for more angle on crosscourt pass. I see more s&v on return of serve … actually chip and charge then swinging volley (with or without the tennis shoulder turn). I don’t how see how you get good at pb without good “arming” skills. Ironic just spent 5+ years in ttw tennis tips “no arming” and now ttw pb “yes arming”. Other Karma is my rants over there against mini tennis … now trying a game played entirely in the mini court … with a wiffle. Got to love it.

 

[mikeler]

My top 10 thoughts in no particular order after my first week of playing PB:

1) The arming is kind of like the serve toss, the less moving parts the less that can go wrong.
2) I still serve and volley accidentally but I'm doing it once or twice a day now versus many times.
3) Against most players, a high return with no pace forces the server's team to go against the two returners at net with nothing to work with. I'm sure this is a bad play at higher levels but works well so far from what I've seen.
4) PB players seems nowhere near as serious as tennis players, mainly just there for fun.
5) All ages/genders can give you a good game.
6) The game is much more social and you can meet so many new people with the pickup games that are encouraged.
7) Playing other good players is as tiring as tennis for me. Probably not as much calorie burn but I still work up a decent sweat even in the AC.
8. Lobs in general don't work well but like tennis, a well placed lob over the backhand side can still put you in a good position.
9. A chop return seems to produce more some errors and more pop ups coming back from the serving team.
10. The score is tougher to remember. Call it out everytime.

 

[ByeByePoly]

My top 10 thoughts in no particular order after my first week of playing PB:

1) The arming is kind of like the serve toss, the less moving parts the less that can go wrong.
2) I still serve and volley accidentally but I'm doing it once or twice a day now versus many times.
3) Against most players, a high return with no pace forces the server's team to go against the two returners at net with nothing to work with. I'm sure this is a bad play at higher levels but works well so far from what I've seen.
4) PB players seems nowhere near as serious as tennis players, mainly just there for fun.
5) All ages/genders can give you a good game.
6) The game is much more social and you can meet so many new people with the pickup games that are encouraged.
7) Playing other good players is as tiring as tennis for me. Probably not as much calorie burn but I still work up a decent sweat even in the AC.
8. Lobs in general don't work well but like tennis, a well placed lob over the backhand side can still put you in a good position.
9. A chop return seems to produce more some errors and more pop ups coming back from the serving team.
10. The score is tougher to remember. Call it out everytime.

lol … no kidding … goes against all our ingrained habits to not follow serve in, and not get in kitchen and close the net. The doubles scoring is nuts ... singles is at lease easy to follow. When we (wife) play singles, we play rally scoring and she gets to close the net in the kitchen. The kitchen “allowance” happened at first by accident. We were having a good point … and she closed the net and slapped a winner. I asked “were you in the kitchen”? Her face was priceless … “yes I was”. She didn’t say the kitchen was stupid … at least out loud.

From our brief time … return of serve and coming in is the fun part … not serving and forced to stay back. Also … hard to know if you are stepping on line in kitchen when you are staring at Mr Wiffle. I thought avoiding tennis serve foot faults was bad enough … now it’s the entire point.

 

[mikeler]

Yeah, I've heard people call out others for being in the kitchen. That's the last thing I focus on is people's feet!

 

[LeeD]

You all base impressions on too little input.
I've seen pBall played at 6.0 tennis level, singles, with topspin HARD groundies, underspin volleys, baseline rallies, heavy loopy topspin serves, passing shots, and overheads, low and half volleys, just like advanced tennis.
Of course, if you play pBall with 70 year oldsters, it's dink and chop.

 

[LeeD]

I'm like a bad 3.5 in pBall, hold conti grip for every shot, mostly flat serves and groundies, lots of sides pin low shots.
I also play right handed. Tennis left.

 

[ByeByePoly]

You all base impressions on too little input.
I've seen pBall played at 6.0 tennis level, singles, with topspin HARD groundies, underspin volleys, baseline rallies, heavy loopy topspin serves, passing shots, and overheads, low and half volleys, just like advanced tennis.
Of course, if you play pBall with 70 year oldsters, it's dink and chop.

Are you talking about doubles … this observation was based on higher level pball doubles. Yes … very little input for me. I watched some 5.0 doubles youtube, and pro doubles on tv … that’s all. I do not see a doubles game very dependent on groundstrokes. Obviously I see them in singles.

 

[LeeD]

Are you talking about doubles … this observation was based on higher level pball doubles. Yes … very little input for me. I watched some 5.0 doubles youtube, and pro doubles on tv … that’s all. I do not see a doubles game very dependent on groundstrokes. Obviously I see them in singles.

Sorry, was watching 2 25 year olds playing singles on the next court.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm like a bad 3.5 in pBall, hold conti grip for every shot, mostly flat serves and groundies, lots of sides pin low shots.
I also play right handed. Tennis left.

We have started out whiffing some backhands … always past tip of paddle. So weird. When we just hit singles with Onix Pure 2 ball, we get into good rally whiff-free. Step on the indoor doubles court today with really low bouncing ball and whiff bh ros, mostly wife 2hbh. So weird after decades of tennis.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Sorry, was watching 2 25 year olds playing singles on the next court.

Yeah … singles … particularly passing shots the tennis stroke shows up.

 

[LeeD]

Yeah, spacial awareness is so different. I hold way down on the grip to get some extra RHS for groundies, and reach for the kitchen.
Still don't know how to keep score, but 49 years of tennis put me in the upper 1/4 in open play doubles.
I usually just hit with my 2.5 girlfriend, so hardly ever see hard or heavy spin shots.
Like tennis, early prep and swing thru the ball helos.

 

[ByeByePoly]

My top 10 thoughts in no particular order after my first week of playing PB:
2) I still serve and volley accidentally but I'm doing it once or twice a day now versus many times.

We played the open play thing … and you are totally right. Meet a lot of people … have fun with all ages and levels.

Your comment about your s&v reminds me of what my wife kept doing. She wouldn’t run in right after the serve. But then if they hit a high pretty deep ros she would run in and smack it in the air. The other teams were “teaching” us the entire 2 hours. Indoors … couldn’t even hear opponent call score … which we needed to hear because we often had no idea.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

We played the open play thing … and you are totally right. Meet a lot of people … have fun with all ages and levels.

Your comment about your s&v reminds me of what my wife kept doing. She wouldn’t run in right after the serve. But then if they hit a high pretty deep ros she would run in and smack it in the air. The other teams were “teaching” us the entire 2 hours. Indoors … couldn’t even hear opponent call score … which we needed to hear because we often had no idea.

-thats why i think PB is taking off so fast
-just being nimble enough to move is the #1 criteria to "fun PB", strength and tennis ability, not so much
-i also like the fact that im meeting people i would not otherwise meet on a tennis court (badminton, racquetball, pingpong, basketball people)


-as for the learning curve of PB
-i think its a very fast and easy learning process
-few mistakes here/there (at the beginning stages) from the few rules it has, but its all part of learning a new game

-the social aspect of PB is good
-its a short quick match (most times) and people are off to play with another 4some

 

[ByeByePoly]

-thats why i think PB is taking off so fast
-just being nimble enough to move is the #1 criteria to "fun PB", strength and tennis ability, not so much
-i also like the fact that im meeting people i would not otherwise meet on a tennis court (badminton, racquetball, pingpong, basketball people)


-as for the learning curve of PB
-i think its a very fast and easy learning process
-few mistakes here/there (at the beginning stages) from the few rules it has, but its all part of learning a new game

-the social aspect of PB is good
-its a short quick match (most times) and people are off to play with another 4some

yep … completely different than tennis where you play with your level (league, club court time, usta).

If they changed to rally scoring it would be faster for rotating in and out.

I don’t see tennis helping a lot in doubles. Ironically the tennis ball feeding to other side of court I have done for decades is the pball serve. The other area it probably helps some is hitting balls in the air at the kitchen… but not as much as what I would have guessed.

Here is our biggest problem … mainly wife 2hbh. I took the ball we were playing with … and dropped it from head level. It bounced up inches. No idea what ball … provided by Lifetime Fitness club. So I did same test with our Onix Pure 2 ball … and it doubled the bounce (from 3” to 6” … lol … no wiffle bounces). So what happens is wife tries to hit her 2hbh ros … which was very consistent in women's 4.0 doubles. Well … no bounce, calculating swing after the bounce fubared compared to tennis, loss of reach with 2hbh, only so much bending knees going to happen and that doesn’t get you to 1 ft bounce. Yeah … not a mystery she is missing past the end of the paddle. I did to at first even with 1hbh … but pretty much past it now. So probably what she needs to do is develop a 1hbh ros when too low … but perfect example where years of 2hbh experience means nothing on the low ones. For that low 1hbh ros … she starts from scratch just like anyone who never played tennis.

After the open play was over … I pull out an Onix Pure 2 ball and we hit balls from baseline. Right from the start long rally … wife isn’t missing a 2hbh. So imo the game is neutered with the ball … no it’s a contest if no bouncing.

We had a lot of fun … but would have more fun with more bounce. It is what it is.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

-the 2hbh in PB does not seem to work for my thinking either, bounce/s too low to be doing it over an over again
-reflex volleys with a 2hbh is something else, and i think that works okai, specially for weaker/strength player
-some of the tennis stuff/movements do not work as well for PB
-switching after poaching a volley for example, not a good thing to do in PB, IMO/IME
-more than half the time, my doubles PB partner does not have "enough time" to shift/switch into my vacated side of the court
-but on a lob switch scenario, same rules (as in tennis) apply, switching and clearing the lane for the player to hit

 

[mikeler]

We played the open play thing … and you are totally right. Meet a lot of people … have fun with all ages and levels.

Your comment about your s&v reminds me of what my wife kept doing. She wouldn’t run in right after the serve. But then if they hit a high pretty deep ros she would run in and smack it in the air. The other teams were “teaching” us the entire 2 hours. Indoors … couldn’t even hear opponent call score … which we needed to hear because we often had no idea.

Yes, it is very loud. I've always struggled to hear with loud background noises, so I have trouble hearing the score indoors too.

 

[ByeByePoly]

-the 2hbh in PB does not seem to work for my thinking either, bounce/s too low to be doing it over an over again
-reflex volleys with a 2hbh is something else, and i think that works okai, specially for weaker/strength player
-some of the tennis stuff/movements do not work as well for PB
-switching after poaching a volley for example, not a good thing to do in PB, IMO/IME
-more than half the time, my doubles PB partner does not have "enough time" to shift/switch into my vacated side of the court
-but on a lob switch scenario, same rules (as in tennis) apply, switching and clearing the lane for the player to hit

Yeah … she is already hitting reflex volleys fine with 2hbh … her best tennis skill is net. The one time we practiced dinks outside, she surprised me how well she did that … including 1hbh dink. The big hole is the ros … too ingrained and actually a plus if she gets a higher ball.

Interesting how the top pros are 2hbh in singles. Before I saw that … I would have thought no way with a paddle. I went back to 1hbh so far … but will experiment with my 2hbh with the 5 1/2” grips on the Prince paddles. One thing hilarious was my first attempts at 1hbh slice. I have a good 1hbh tennis slice … depended on it in tennis singles. First several 1hbh slices with paddle and my same swing path put the wiffle half way up the net. Still working that one out.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes, it is very loud. I've always struggled to hear with loud background noises, so I have trouble hearing the score indoors too.

My hearing is really good and I can’t hear the score. I had my hearing checked a couple of years ago … and young tech running equipment says “wow … you are hearing as good or better than any 20 year old that she had tested”. With that clack clack clack … might be a good thing to have lost some hearing.

 

[LeeD]

2hbh is not so much for baseline play as for volleying.
No urgency for 2hbh ROS because no volley, and oftentimes, 1hbh low short slice neutralizes net player. Only the real fit can hit 2hbh passing shots consistently.

 

[ByeByePoly]

2hbh is not so much for baseline play as for volleying.
No urgency for 2hbh ROS because no volley, and oftentimes, 1hbh low short slice neutralizes net player. Only the real fit can hit 2hbh passing shots consistently.

That is what I told her … no tennis net person to avoid … just get 1hbh good enough to get it in. Ironically … Pickleball ros more like tennis singles … entire width of court to hit into.

 

[treo]

Yes nipples to the net when volleying but when you don't have time, pivot, let it bounce and use a tennis stroke.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes nipples to the net when volleying but when you don't have time, pivot, let it bounce and use a tennis stroke.

Right off the bounce with appropriate stance change is automatic for me from tennis. The lean and in the air dink will most likely be a last option … will much prefer having to move more, including feet and stance and dink off the bounce. But … to my eyes the lean and blast/put away is different and required. By leaning and reaching in some balls will be just high enough to smash that would have dropped too far by kitchen line. This is why tennis players close the net … trying to catch ball at it’s highest point for volley (also better angles and drop volleys for s&v tennis player). And like I said … my initial guess is I will enjoy the lean and hit in the air the least coming from tennis. Every instinct in our tennis body is get your feet and body to the ball.

Same disclaimer here … I reserve the right to come back with a couple of months of play and say I am cool with the lean dink and lean smack. It sure seems like the tall long arm player would have a big advantage on the lean smack.

 

[treo]

Best ways to spot a pickleballer with no tennis background:
Bowling serve motion (common with women)
Frying pan overhead motion with no pronation
One grip all the time
Lazy footwork
Open stance
Flat shots

Best ways to spot a pickleballer with a tennis background:
Bounces the ball before serving and/or has a specific serve routine
Slice backhand and two handed backhand
Split steps and happy feet
Grip changes
Spinny shots

 

[ByeByePoly]

Best ways to spot a pickleballer with no tennis background:
Bowling serve motion (common with women)
Frying pan overhead motion with no pronation
One grip all the time
Lazy footwork
Open stance
Flat shots

Best ways to spot a pickleballer with a tennis background:
Bounces the ball before serving and/or has a specific serve routine
Slice backhand and two handed backhand
Split steps and happy feet
Grip changes
Spinny shots

good list … but this tennis player will hit all Pickleball shots with a continental grip … for slice, flat and topspin.

 

[djNEiGht]

good list … but this tennis player will hit all Pickleball shots with a continental grip … for slice, flat and topspin.

I think I'm the same too and I just lag my wrist a little more/less depending on the action on the ball i'm looking for. I did try but not enough a grip change and my timing was off. prob because I was taking the paddle back far like tennis.

 

[jonestim]

Continental for me 98% of the time as well. I started off hitting groundstrokes with more extreme grips and found that I was dumping a lot into the net.

 

[LeeD]

Also a 1 grip conti player, might switch a bit to efh for serves and dipping passing shots..need topspin around 4.0, which I'm NOT near.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Some comments from Ben Johns about tennis players moving to pickleball

- not a heavy baseline game
- mainly flat strokes from ground (think older traditional tennis), topspin used more on volleys
- tennis players stay out of no mans land, in pickleball get used to half volleys from there
- kitchen will come easier for most tennis players
- tennis players get quick start, but then still then still major learning curve to advance

GOAT @ 23: Ben Johns is a pickleball master with a 'Frankenstein' game | Tennis.com

Ben Johns is just getting started, but he’s already the most impressive player that pickleball has ever known. One reason? Tennis.

www.tennis.com

Obviously we see pros using topspin on singles passing shots, and swinging volleys … but his comments kind of reinforced my initial thoughts about there being too much emphasis on topspin. It’s not a heavy baseline game … singles players aren’t working opponents from corner to corner like tennis. I think you could make a strong case pickleball is more like table tennis in key areas (my no body turn comments earlier) than tennis. The kitchen play to me looks much more like table tennis than tennis, although you don’t take the ball in the air in table tennis. The nipples to the net arming volley is more a table tennis stroke than a tennis stroke … but there will be a learning curve for everyone … tennis player and table tennis player.

 

[treo]

I've seen Jack Foster play in person and he is like the Nadal of pickleball.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've seen Jack Foster play in person and he is like the Nadal of pickleball.

I’ve just started watching so my limited sample size is finals on the Tennis channel, and Google/Youtube … usual suspects Johns, McGuffin, JW, Waters, Parenteau, …). I also went back and watched some Simone Jardim 2016-2020. Pro level always evolves … will be interesting to see boundaries pushed without major paddle and ball change. One of the many things I immediately missed from tennis is a heavy dipping forehand topspin lob. I would normally have a cure for those two at the kitchen they would not enjoy … but the 26g wiffle neutered that.

btw … there is no Nadal with a 26g plastic ball.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've seen Jack Foster play in person and he is like the Nadal of pickleball.

btw … Nadal changed the game with his heavy topspin … s&v died. You will know topspin changed Pickleball when it’s beating Ben Johns and Anna Leigh.

 

[ByeByePoly]

good list … but this tennis player will hit all Pickleball shots with a continental grip … for slice, flat and topspin.

ok … my continental only plan, and 1hbh lasted less than a week.

First … we really like our Prince paddles … wife likes the lighter one, and I will probably be good to go with 8.2 oz (8 oz + .2 oz tournagrip).

Tennis context:
- all backhands continental (1hbh slice, 1hbh drive, 2hbh cont/east 2hbh)
- forehand eastern

Today was checking forehand topspin … and muscle memory grip change just happened. I would say eastern … but a little different feel because of Prince squarish grip. My hand had no problem finding eastern…ish, so not worried about no tennis racquet octagonal shape, but different feel. I hit decent topspin with the Prince … if I get into singles competition I would expect it to be good to go.

So one prediction down.

Next plan was ditching 2hbh and going 100% with 1hbh … more reach and didn’t see any need to hit 2hbh.

That lasted until my first 2hbh swing today. I hadn’t even tried with our other paddles … shorter grip. Yeah … wrong plan again. Nailed first three 2hbhs … including one dtl. That is so weird … how does that even work with a paddle? But I hit it differently from tennis 2hbh. In tennis … I hit straight right arm FHs, and bent/straight 2hbhs with left arm straight at contact for reach and leverage. Not with the wiffle … get close to ball and hit bent/bent and it comes off solid and under control. So my guess … when time and not stretched … 2hbh (groundstrokes, not volleys … we drilled kitchen reflex volleys and 1hbh volley is way to go for me … my tennis 1hbh volley always my best volley)

I think the 2hbh would mainly benefit singles … doubles just get it in and get to kitchen. Might hit it for fun in doubles … and maybe another bad prediction not useful in doubles.

55 F low wind outside … sunny … had a blast. This silly game is addicting.

edit: I tested the Head safety glasses I had bought … see fine with them and will wear them for doubles play … even if only one wearing them.

 

[treo]

Paddletek makes Prince paddles which is why it doesn't have a tennis handle. Most of the other tennis brand paddles have tennis shape handles and they are a must for me because of playing both sports.

Switching grips in pickleball is easy and fast because it can be done with one hand.

I always wear my prescription safety goggles. I hit two people in the eye in a year and got hit once. I regularly see people get hit in the face and know one guy who got permanent eye damage from an overhead to the eye. I played in a men's ladder and about 75% were wearing eye protection.

 

[onehandbh]

Best way to spot a long-time pickleball player.

They wear hearing aids.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Paddletek makes Prince paddles which is why it doesn't have a tennis handle. Most of the other tennis brand paddles have tennis shape handles and they are a must for me because of playing both sports.

Switching grips in pickleball is easy and fast because it can be done with one hand.

I always wear my prescription safety goggles. I hit two people in the eye in a year and got hit once. I regularly see people get hit in the face and know one guy who got permanent eye damage from an overhead to the eye. I played in a men's ladder and about 75% were wearing eye protection.

I just go to eastern … probably weak eastern … so it felt ok. Also thick tournagrip overgrip … so I’m used to feeling less of the bevels even with tennis racquet. I guess Simone Jardim came from tennis … would have guessed the Paddletek and Prince collaboration would have ended up with tennis handle.

Good … glad to hear others wear eye protection. I haven’t seen it watching the pros on tv … other than sunglasses. When we played the one time at Lifetime Fitness … didn’t see any on three courts. I am probably a little more susceptible to retinal tear because of shape of extreme nearsighted eye (had two Lasiks … but shape of eye remains after Lasik). I am also wearing hard scleral contacts which vaults the cornea and rests on white part of eye (sclera) and I don’t think getting them smashed into the eye is a good plan.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Best way to spot a long-time pickleball player.

They wear hearing aids.

Yeah … but they can take them out during play

 

[djNEiGht]

yikes...

I always wear my prescription safety goggles. I hit two people in the eye in a year and got hit once. I regularly see people get hit in the face and know one guy who got permanent eye damage from an overhead to the eye. I played in a men's ladder and about 75% were wearing eye protection.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

....................
I always wear my prescription safety goggles. I hit two people in the eye in a year and got hit once. I regularly see people get hit in the face and know one guy who got permanent eye damage from an overhead to the eye. I played in a men's ladder and about 75% were wearing eye protection.

yikes...

-i wear prescription glasses to play
-i just got hit in the glasses/face
-did not feel and/or sound good
-i thought my glasses broke at the time

-moral of the story "PROTECT YOUR FACE"!!

 

[ByeByePoly]

This thread will probably be my initial tennis to pickleball diary.

Two new things that I have learned:

1) no wrist in tennis … need wrist often in pickleball, particularly high smack volley put away at kitchen
2) lower back massage before heading to pickleball

 

[Dartagnan64]

Switching grips in pickleball is easy and fast because it can be done with one hand.

Why would someone switch grips in PB? It's pretty much a Conti grip sport and the action at net is too quick for grip changes.

 

[mikeler]

This thread will probably be my initial tennis to pickleball diary.

Two new things that I have learned:

1) no wrist in tennis … need wrist often in pickleball, particularly high smack volley put away at kitchen
2) lower back massage before heading to pickleball

Pickleball is rough on the lower back. How do you like that massager?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Pickleball is rough on the lower back. How do you like that massager?

Love it … had it for 3 years. It ends up being fairly versatile. I use it on my lower back and both hamstrings before I leave the house for pickleball. Used it this morning. Then when we get to fitness center, we walk 5 minutes on treadmill and I do brief hamstring stretching. Made for back and neck … feels awesome on back of neck.

I think it was NYTA that recommended it. Norcal also has one.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Great Zane Navratil video for those coming to pickleball from tennis … he explained the kitchen play without using “nipples to the net”

Those of us from the ttw tennis tips technique forum could give him 1000+ words on the use of the non-dominant arm/hand in the 2hbh.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Zane could probably use ”hips past feet, shoulders past hips, shoulder under chin, open stance ok) in his 2hbh lessons. If tennis doesn’t always require closed stance … neither does the wiffle.

edit: also … on closed stance … don’t start uncoiling shoulders until landed on front foot … don’t swing while still stepping.

 

[vex]

superior tennis topspin fh, or 1hbh slice means nothing. Everything before all four at the kitchen is just foreplay.

…

What did I get wrong, what did I get right?

^ that’s the part you got wrong. While groundies aren’t the dominant shot in PB that they are in Tennis, powerful topspin FH drive is crucial. Also you need a solid BH. The game does not begin with all 4 at the kitchen whatsoever. Good teams will pin the serving team at the baseline with the return and never let them move in.

 

[vex]

Why would someone switch grips in PB? It's pretty much a Conti grip sport and the action at net is too quick for grip changes.

You def don’t want conti at the baseline. You need to hit intense topspin FH drives that you aren’t easily doing with conti. Most pros use multiple grips depending on the situation.

 

[ByeByePoly]

^ that’s the part you got wrong. While groundies aren’t the dominant shot in PB that they are in Tennis, powerful topspin FH drive is crucial. Also you need a solid BH. The game does not begin with all 4 at the kitchen whatsoever. Good teams will pin the serving team at the baseline with the return and never let them move in.

I’m at 6 months into pickleball … and thought I would look at my initial observation/guesses about key pball doubles skills and see if they held up. I think most did … but you had pointed out a very important (I would say key) doubles skill that happens before all four at the kitchen.

And that is the serving team trying to get to the kitchen. The rules disadvantage the server getting to the kitchen … and you can only score on your serve. For the serving team the key part of point starts on 3rd shot, drop, drive and drop, teammates advance toward kitchen and sometimes retreat. Your level will be limited based on your serving pre-kitchen advance to the kitchen skills. I know … I finally committed to improving 3rd shot drop skills and the results were immediate.

I think we would probably end up disagreeing on the utility, importance … risk/reward of baseline big pace and spin. Obviously a nice club to have in the bag (I do), but I see very good doubles players without much pace and spin. But to me that isn’t the key point here … the key point is get good at the serving team dance to the kitchen, and receiving team skills trying to make it difficult for the serving team‘s advance.

 

[Bud]

I’m at 6 months into pickleball … and thought I would look at my initial observation/guesses about key pball doubles skills and see if they held up. I think most did … but you had pointed out a very important (I would say key) doubles skill that happens before all four at the kitchen.

And that is the serving team trying to get to the kitchen. The rules disadvantage the server getting to the kitchen … and you can only score on your serve. For the serving team the key part of point starts on 3rd shot, drop, drive and drop, teammates advance toward kitchen and sometimes retreat. Your level will be limited based on your serving pre-kitchen advance to the kitchen skills. I know … I finally committed to improving 3rd shot drop skills and the results were immediate.

I think we would probably end up disagreeing on the utility, importance … risk/reward of baseline big pace and spin. Obviously a nice club to have in the bag (I do), but I see very good doubles players without much pace and spin. But to me that isn’t the key point here … the key point is get good at the serving team dance to the kitchen, and receiving team skills trying to make it difficult for the serving team‘s advance.

Agree.

Things I've noted:

You can't stay at the baseline in PB. You'll lose against the better players, without a doubt.

Get to the kitchen as quickly as possible after returning!

If you're serving, a good third shot drop or a low net clearance, high pace spin drive are key. The drive will usually produce a volley sitter from all but the best players. The drop will neutralize the point.

Learn to slightly adjust backward/forward at the kitchen when you or your partner hit the ball too high. Good chance of getting it back off the smash. The feet must always be moving like tennis. Anticipation is so important.

Never back up dinking. Adjust you body. Practice dinking and half-dink volleys are key.

Recognize when you're playing total defense and reset with a wide angle drop. Going offensive while playing defense will usually lose the point.

Get a good hitting partner to practice effective dinks and quick net exchanges.