Torso rotation on one handed backhand
- Thread starter Curious
- Start date
5263
G.O.A.T.
I'd say false given the way you say it. There are some differences due to the front shoulder involvement in the 1h Bh, but in general, the hips drive the shoulders, which drive the arm/hand....before the arm and hand take over and work up and across for the finish.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
So you’re saying it’s just like the forehand?
5263
G.O.A.T.
I'm saying that it is very similar and that the chain is roughly the same Imo.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Then I wonder why the racket doesn’t flip back at the beginning of forward swing, like we see on the forehand?
C
Chadalina
Guest
More lag time on the 1h bh (top/flat, slice is later), you release the core sooner to propel the arm like a catapult.
1h Backhand prep starts with the butt-cap pointed to the ball, so where could it flip to? Its already flipped.
"ATP Style" forehand has a "flip" because the prep doesn't involve pointing the buttcap to the ball-- buttcap points automatically as a byproduct of the drag&lag effect, which is what people are referring to when they mention the flip
Last edited:
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Thank you. About the main question, do you think the torso and hips/legs initiate the swing just like the forehand? On the forehand(at least on shadow swings) that’s how I can do it but on the backhand no matter how hard I try my arm swings at the same time with the rest .
5263
G.O.A.T.
the racket head does lag into the slot on the Bh
Uhh, I think for the most part yes. I think ideally youd be pushing and rotating with the leg to initiate the rotational acceleration.
On the forehand it's external hip rotation driving the rotation, while the one handed backhand utilizes internal hip rotation.
Try giving yourself a hug, life if you were wearing a straight jacket, and using the internal hip rotation to rotate your shoulders. I think this could help you get a feel for the timing/ synchronization
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Are you talking about hip as a general term or true anatomical hip joint rotation?
Dragy
Legend
For FH and 1HBH there’re some difference in how torso rotation delivers acceleration to arm:
- For FH hitting side shoulder moves out as rotation takes place, pushing the arm like a radius/rundle in a wheel, if you get what I mean. It’s important to establish strong posture at shoulder joint to secure efficient power delivery. For modern FH arm only pivots at shoulder joint later through the motion, as torso rotation is played out as a source of acceleration.
- For BH hitting side shoulder moves across the target direction. It more of pulls the hitting arm, propelling it out with centrifugal force. It’s important to build up some arm speed before major torso uncoil, hence high takeback and pendulum swing.
Another difference is quantity of segments. FH hinges at shoulder and wrist, BH hinges at shoulder dominantly (there should not be major wrist action to slap the ball).
Try to look at this comparing wrist+racquet action at FH side to all-arm+racquet action at BH side. Both release just into contact.
- For FH hitting side shoulder moves out as rotation takes place, pushing the arm like a radius/rundle in a wheel, if you get what I mean. It’s important to establish strong posture at shoulder joint to secure efficient power delivery. For modern FH arm only pivots at shoulder joint later through the motion, as torso rotation is played out as a source of acceleration.
- For BH hitting side shoulder moves across the target direction. It more of pulls the hitting arm, propelling it out with centrifugal force. It’s important to build up some arm speed before major torso uncoil, hence high takeback and pendulum swing.
Another difference is quantity of segments. FH hinges at shoulder and wrist, BH hinges at shoulder dominantly (there should not be major wrist action to slap the ball).
Try to look at this comparing wrist+racquet action at FH side to all-arm+racquet action at BH side. Both release just into contact.
I don't know the difference, I've only a layman's understanding of kinesiological terminology.
When I say "internal hip rotation" I'm referring to rotating your foot inwards. So, internally rotating your right hip/leg/foot would be like rotating your hip/leg/ foot counter clockwise.
So, Newton third law means that, when standing on one leg, counter clockwise hip rotation would produce clockwise torso/ shoulder rotation.
Make sense?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
For Federer the uppermost body and shoulder joint motion occur early and more together.
For Wawrinka, Justine Henin and Gasquet the uppermost body turns first and presses the chest to the upper arm. Later the shoulder joint is used. I believe that this technique is superior and more widely used by the best one hand backhands.
Two different techniques.
I posted a long thread on the high speed video observations on this issue. Read post #1, and then #51 to end.
One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?
One Hand Backhand - What Force to Start Forward Swing? I have just been watching great one-hand backhands at the Madrid Open. Including excellent slow motion that can be replayed in even slower motion or single frame with my DVR. Often when I try to swing forward for a one hand backhand...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Agree with @Dragy. Kinetic chain is where every next link lags from previous one. The difference is mobility range of the links.
Disagree with @Chas Tennis example of pro players. There is no different techniques. The difference is in mobility of the segments.
Disagree with @Chas Tennis example of pro players. There is no different techniques. The difference is in mobility of the segments.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
For a righty on forehand torso pivots on left hip(imagine you plant on left foot and thrust the right hip forward-think semi open stance ), although the pelvis turns right to left ie rotates it’s still left hip internal rotation as the thigh bone turns inward (relative to its socket-pelvic bone that is).
Are we on the same page or not even in the same book??
Last edited:
Dragy
Legend
What if I’m bad at throwing those things? It’s just a simplified analogy that works for some, not so much for others.
Notorious_Junkballer
Hall of Fame
I see many people, and even pro players, hit OHB almost solely with arm och wrist. The true power comes from the rotating torso. Just take a look at Wawrinka.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Sure but “the torso and the legs start it and the arm/racket are dragged along” sounds a little like a myth to me. Like the view that first legs, then hips, then shoulders, then arm fire in sequence. Even if this is true in theory, there’s no practical value as all happens so suddenly. Who can have control in doing all these in that order lol?
Dragy
Legend
Well, it still happens sequentially for a well-prepared shot.
- you get in position, set your feet;
- you coil and get the racquet back and high;
- you start the pendulum swing, drop racquet below contact point, and rotate torso, and swing outward towards the ball;
- you release and ESR into and past contact.
The closer to contact - the faster, yet still smooth, shorter the stages.
Coil->initiate->power->guide->witness the contact and follow-through.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Well the issue is on the backhand I uncoil the hips, torso, shoulders and swing the arm and the racket all at the same time, not in a sequential manner. Am I doing it wrong? That’s my question.
Dragy
Legend
Video?
FiReFTW
Legend
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I might take one this weekend.Video?
You lock certain parts of your kinetic chain because it is easier to time the shot having fewer moving links. But it is not entirely wrong.
I can find examples of high lever players with locked elbows of wrists in their backhand.
But more moving segments in the kinetic chain give more racquet head speed. So it pays off working on relaxed motion and using all the segments.
I also think tendency towards thinner grips is related to this topic. Mobility of a thinner grip adds another segment above the wrist.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Dragy
Legend
I tested your chest press idea the very first time you posted it. Chest press doesn’t look as high level BHs look. I was lazy, but now made a video demonstration of forceful chest press, enjoy:
You are right about arm and chest but it is not what I was talking about.
I disagree with you statement of two different techniques. There is only one correct technique (kinetic chain) and indefinite number of incorrect. Arm close or far from the chest can be in any of them.
I have been helping a couple of friends on the 1hb.. 1 common issue is the over rotation.
on the fh you won't be punished too bad with over rotation... heck a lot of people hit open stance..
on the bh over rotation will produce late hits. guaranteed. the way I explain is like this - imagine your leg/hip/core/shoulder is the first stage rocket... depending on the situation you may have little or a lot of time to fire this rocket... BUT, it has to STOP at the point that your chest is still facing the side fence, at which point the arm is the 2nd stage rocket and it must fire to DEFEND THE CONTACT POINT.
late hit is the most common problem, almost no exception they miss the ball to the left.
once the ball leaves the opp's racket and you know it's a bh, you can visualize where the contact point is - somewhere about 2ft in front of the hitting shoulder... YOU HAVE TO DEFEND THAT POINT AT ALL COST - which means
- when there is a lot of time, you can fire the entire first stage rocket, BUT AGAIN, STOP WHEN YOU ARE STILL SIDE WAYS.. then let the 2nd stage fire to meet the ball at the contact point;
- when the ball comes with strong pace, you may not have time to fire the entire first stage, you will have a little bit of core rotation, and the hand must go to the contact point to defend it;
- when the ball comes with VERY strong pace, you may not have time to fire the first stage at all, and the hand must go directly to the contact point to defend it - it's almost like providing a wall for the ball the bounce off;
- when the ball comes with VERY strong pace and lands very deep, there is not even room to fire the 2nd stage where you can have the hand out in front, this is where you have to let the left foot step BACKWARDS to create room, so the hand can still defend the contact point while keeping the ball in front of you.
so you see, it all depends, but the bottom line is - the HAND is the KING... it must make the contact out in front, and the rest of the body serves the KING, and may or may not have enough time to perform various amount of rotation.
on the fh you won't be punished too bad with over rotation... heck a lot of people hit open stance..
on the bh over rotation will produce late hits. guaranteed. the way I explain is like this - imagine your leg/hip/core/shoulder is the first stage rocket... depending on the situation you may have little or a lot of time to fire this rocket... BUT, it has to STOP at the point that your chest is still facing the side fence, at which point the arm is the 2nd stage rocket and it must fire to DEFEND THE CONTACT POINT.
late hit is the most common problem, almost no exception they miss the ball to the left.
once the ball leaves the opp's racket and you know it's a bh, you can visualize where the contact point is - somewhere about 2ft in front of the hitting shoulder... YOU HAVE TO DEFEND THAT POINT AT ALL COST - which means
- when there is a lot of time, you can fire the entire first stage rocket, BUT AGAIN, STOP WHEN YOU ARE STILL SIDE WAYS.. then let the 2nd stage fire to meet the ball at the contact point;
- when the ball comes with strong pace, you may not have time to fire the entire first stage, you will have a little bit of core rotation, and the hand must go to the contact point to defend it;
- when the ball comes with VERY strong pace, you may not have time to fire the first stage at all, and the hand must go directly to the contact point to defend it - it's almost like providing a wall for the ball the bounce off;
- when the ball comes with VERY strong pace and lands very deep, there is not even room to fire the 2nd stage where you can have the hand out in front, this is where you have to let the left foot step BACKWARDS to create room, so the hand can still defend the contact point while keeping the ball in front of you.
so you see, it all depends, but the bottom line is - the HAND is the KING... it must make the contact out in front, and the rest of the body serves the KING, and may or may not have enough time to perform various amount of rotation.
no - this is a bad idea and will not work in real battle.... check my post above... it may look like this when the incoming is very slow... but in fast exchanges it doesn't work this way..
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
False.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Many posts here are about what people believe about undefined words. In this case, your definition and my definition of 'different technique'.
Sometimes I search and find threads from over 10 years ago where people are arguing over their individual definitions of poorly defined words. Many old threads look very similar to current threads - there's been little progress.
If I see different forces from different body parts, that's one reason I consider the techniques to be different. But to stop arguments over poorly defined words, I prefer to state the specifics that everyone can see in videos.
Some words are used to cover what is poorly understood. "Kinetic Chain" is a flagship term for that purpose. Segments speeding up sequentially but there's nothing to say about the Stretch Shorten Cycles........
Maybe if you read my thread on the one hand backhand you could find specifics that you don't agree with? In high speed videos, I see air between Federer's chest and arm very early in the forward stroke so there are 0 forces between those two surfaces then. I don't see air for Wawrinka, Justine Henin, Gasquet and others and believe that there are strong forces between those two surfaces then. That video signature defines my use of the term 'different technique'.
Can you show your thoughts in clear frames of high speed video?
Last edited:
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I stepped through a comparison between Mojo28 and Gasquet in the backhand thread. Pictures are from each frame of a video.
Mojo28 puts his straight arm down at too much of an angle in comparison to Gasquet. To understand this, first the rotation axis has to be identified. In Gasquet videos, I saw that his rotation axis was his spine, maybe the upper spine, look at the head and neck. In Mojo28's technique, his arm was down at too large an angle and that moves the racket head closer to the rotation axis. Racket head speed is proportional to the distance from the rotation axis to the racket head. (Later the rotation axis shifts to the shoulder joint, when the upper arm separates from the chest.) Compare arm angles for Mojo28, you and Gasquet.
To help keep the arm higher - and hand farther from the rotation axis - for more racket head speed, the racket can be lowered below the hand by doing ISR including with possible force from the off arm.
Remember our argument over the chest press vs the muscles pulling from behind (your point)? I have a hard time pressing the upper arm with the chest as a habit for no reason. But to start it works better if I stretch the hitting arm back so that I feel a lot of tension on the back behind the shoulder joint, the scapula shifts forward too. You might add more of that stretch and scapular movement to start your demo.
Watch Wawrinka in the next post.
Last edited:
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
This guy hits one of the biggest 1HBH on tour. How would you describe his kinetic chain sequence of events?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
A single explosive motion of all the involved elements of the kinetic chain at the same time. That’s what I think he’s doing, that’s what I feel happens when I’m doing it.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
If he applies his shoulder joint muscles but the upper arm does not move off the chest, what have his shoulder muscles accomplished up until that time?
pros are beautiful to look at.... but usually do not give good reference for amateurs.... the difference in physicality / athleticism is too big.
for amateurs it's easy to tell if a shot is good - can you, or can you not, hit the ball to the intended target with 80% pace at all times, withOUT deceleration.... and if you can swing out of your shoes without losing control, if you want to.
He moves his hips. All the rest above the waist is relaxed. The wave goes through his body all the way to the wrist.
He is not using any muscle above his waist. Being relaxed is the only way to implement kinetic chain. ( Not by intentionally firing 1-2-3 stages of a rocket )
Apparently we all interpret the same videos differently.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
F= mA
Force = mass X Accelertion
Videos do not directly show forces. Forces can often be inferred from accelerations if you can accurately observe accelerations in the videos.
Videos directly show positions in 2 dimensions in each frame. Videos can show velocity using two positions from two frames. They can also show acceleration using 3 frames to first get two velocities. But you have to estimate for the 2D limitation of a camera. If an object goes directly across or up and down in a frame it can be pretty accurate for positions, velocities and accelerations. But if it travels in three dimensions as it usually does, including toward or away from the camera, it is less accurate. 2D camera observing 3D space limitation.
To see the uppermost body accelerate look at several velocities as it turns.
[TERMS. Upper body is defined as the body above the waist. Uppermost body, a term that I started using, applies to the shoulders, or shoulder girdle, or a line between the two shoulders.]
The uppermost body includes pelvis rotation and trunk twisting, separation of shoulders line from hips line and powerful abdominal muscles. Trunk twisting is important for high level ground strokes. Imagine lines between the two shoulders and the two hips and look for them. You need a good back for trunk twisting.
If you want to analyze high speed videos try Kinovea video analysis application and side-by-side comparisons. You could, for example, put red dots on Warinka's shoulders as he accelerates his uppermost body turn to see the uppermost body turn accelerate. You can see the acceleration by eye also.
Experimental version - 0.8.27 (Page 1) — General — Kinovea - Forums
Experimental version - 0.8.27 (Page 1) — General — Kinovea - Forums —
www.kinovea.org
Last edited:
Dragy
Legend
Don’t you get it? I showed particularly how “forceful upper arm press against chest” would look. That’s not how hitting a good BH looks. No air between upper arm and torso doesn’t mean there’s a strong connection. There’s not.
There’s tension in back muscles of course.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
We just disagree on your last point above.
I can't prove with videos that there is force between the chest and upper arm when they appear to touch.
We have F. Lopez & Federer vs Gasquet, Henin & Wawrinka and others to look at. I interpret the Wawrinka video as indicating force between the chest and upper arm. My interpretation is mostly based on the chest and upper arm appearing to initially accelerate and then move together.
I avoid using my own experience since I'd like to first understand the current high level strokes. But I have felt the pressure between the chest and upper arm. I'm a believer.
(The shoulder joint does separate the upper arm from the chest later, before impact, as discussed in my linked thread on the one hand backhand.)
Last edited:
Noo... )) no muscles. Dont use them. You need to start feeling connection between your legs and your wrist. Everything in between is a conductor. Not a source of extra force.
Try timing your shots with relaxed arm an wrist. You will miss many of them but you will eventually get the feeling
F = ma is too much of a simplification. This is a wave process in elastic media. Kinetic chain is a waveguide.
If you are saying that the chest should somehow push or act in any way on the upper arm, this is not true. Sorry I am rarely that categorical in my statements. One can play this way but this is just one of many incorrect ways of doing BH. None of the pro players you mentioned actually pushes his or her upper arm with chest.
The term bio kinetic chain implies just that. That the body operates in a chain of events this is true for every sport that people are releasing or propelling, Being that no 2 bodies are exactly the same means that their bodies may use the chain with slight differences. However that being said in teaching the one handed backhand if we try to get super technical as being stated here we would be looking at almost certain failure. Braden`s technique for teaching backhand seems to work easily for most beginning to learn the 1 handed backhand IMO. His focus was the grip the knuckles and most important the contact point then the follow thru, he felt that the wrist and elbow stay out of the shot till after contact as to control the head better. This absolutely has worked for me in teaching the stroke for generations. I would also invoke Wegners thinking that the brain can not process too many things when playing the game so simpler is better
You are in the middle of the kinetic chain of our discussion ))
