Volkl Cyclone Tour and TRU PRO (formerly Tier One Sports) Black Knight - best co-polys for sensitive elbows

[eah123]

Just wanted to post this here in the hope that it will help players who have sensitive elbows, or are looking for a good co-poly that will help prevent tennis elbow.

When I got tennis elbow, it was from playing with a Babolat Pure Aero 2016 and hybrid of Volkl Cyclone 16 / GOSM 16 at 45/49# for 2 years. Figuring the string setup was fine but the racquet was too stiff, I switched to Pro Kennex Black Ace (315) 2020 and Q+5 Pro racquets with no change in the string setup. I noticed a definite increase in dampening with the PK Kinetic system, but still experienced arm pain after playing.

Then I changed my strings to full bed multi-filament, Pros Pro Superior Gut (1.32 mm = 16g) at 55-60#. The soft string made a huge difference. Little to no arm pain after playing. But while playing with the string, I craved the return to co-poly because of all of the negatives of multi-filament that I experienced: 1) lower spin potential 2) lower durability (string breaks) 3) lower playability time due to string bed "locking" after around 2 weeks. However, I noticed a big advantage of softer strings in addition to comfort: easy string "pocketing", which to me, is the same as "feel". Basically, what feels like balls are held longer by the string bed, which greatly improved my backhand / forehand slices, and touch volleys at the net.

I tried a hybrid of PP Superior Gut with Volkl Cyclone, but did not notice any difference in string bed softness compared to VC/GOSM, and overall lower performance.

Another setup I tried was Tier One Firewire Boost 16 (Firewire/Ghost Wire hybrid) which I strung at 45/45#. I hated this setup. The string bed felt stiff. My arm felt tender after playing with it for a session (1.5 hours normally). Spin was very inconsistent. I think this is because it is fairly extreme in profile (triangular), but as some areas wear down, it generates less spin if you contact the ball there. Power was also very inconsistent. Some parts of the string bed seemed to play fairly dead, while other parts tended to launch the ball.

Finally, I tried Volkl Cyclone Tour 16 at 55# after reading about @g4driver 's extensive experience with the string. The first time I tried, I said to my self, "this is my holy grail of strings!" Basically, all of the advantages of co-poly AND multifilament in a single string, with no need to hybrid. I was shocked how soft the string bed felt, as soft as multifilament full-bed. I feel the same string pocketing, giving me excellent results with slices and touch volleys.

I agree with other reviewers that there seems to be a lot of softening of VCT with the first half-hour of play, which my Gamma tension tester registers as a loss of tension. However, after that break-in period, the feel is very consistent for a very long time. I have over 20 hours of hitting with the same string job, and only see a minimum of notching, and the playability is the same. Also, the loss of tension does not result an increase in trampoline effect.

I figured that there wasn't going to be another string that could give the same results. Then just last night, I cut out Firewire Boost from my other racquet, and put in Tier One Black Knight 16 at 55#. I played 1.5 hours with it today. Wow! Another "holy grail" string?! When I played with it, it felt indistinguishable from VCT 16. Soft as a multifilament, great ball pocketing, good spin potential. Very consistent stringbed. Absolutely no arm pain after playing.

I don't yet have enough hours on T1 Black Knight to know if it will have playability as long as VCT 16. VCT 16 is just outstanding from a playability standpoint, as I people say most co-poly strings are "dead" (lose too much elasticity) after 2-4 weeks. I have been playing with the same VCT16 string for 6 weeks now and still feel the strings have the perfect amount of liveliness. In comparison, when I played with the Volkl Cyclone/GOSM hybrid, I felt the need to restring at least every 4 weeks.

For reference, I play about 5-8 hours/week at around a 3.5-4.0 level and am 47 years old.

Update on Review - See Comment #11

 

[Nollid]

Just wanted to post this here in the hope that it will help players who have a sensitive elbows, or are looking for a good co-poly that will help prevent tennis elbow.

When I got tennis elbow, it was playing with a Babolat Pure Aero 2016 and hybrid of Volkl Cyclone 16 / GOSM 16 at 45/49# for 2 years. Figuring the string setup was fine but the racquet was too stiff, I switched to Pro Kennex Black Ace (315) 2020 and Q+5 Pro racquets with no change in the string setup. I noticed a definite increase in dampening with the PK Kinetic system, but still experienced arm pain after playing.

Then I changed my strings to full bed multi-filament, Pros Pro Superior Gut (1.32 mm = 16g) at 55-60#. The soft string made a huge difference. Little to no arm pain after playing. But while playing with the string, I craved the return to co-poly because of all of the negatives of multi-filament: 1) lower spin potential 2) lower durability (string breaks) 3) lower playability time due to string bed "locking" after around 2 weeks. However, I noticed a big advantage of softer strings in addition to comfort: easy string "pocketing", which to me, is the same as "feel". Basically, what feels like balls are held longer by the string bed, which greatly improved my backhand / forehand slices, and touch volleys at the net.

I tried a hybrid of PP Superior Gut with Volkl Cyclone, but did not notice any difference in string bed softness compared to VC/GOSM, and overall lower performance.

Another setup I tried was Tier One Firewire Boost 16 (Firewire/Ghost Wire hybrid) which I strung at 45/45#. I hated this setup. The string bed felt stiff. My arm felt tender after playing with it for a session (1.5 hours normally). Spin was very inconsistent. I think this is because it is fairly extreme in profile (triangular), but as some areas wear down, it generates less spin if you contact the ball there. Power was also very inconsistent. Some parts of the string bed seemed to play fairly dead, while other parts tended to launch the ball.

Finally, I tried Volkl Cyclone Tour 16 at 55# after reading about @g4driver 's extensive experience with the string. The first time I tried, I said to my self, "this is my holy grail of strings!" Basically, all of the advantages of co-poly AND multifilament in a single string, with no need to hybrid. I was shocked how soft the string bed felt, as soft as multifilament full-bed. I feel the same string pocketing, giving me excellent results with slices and touch volleys.

I agree that there seems to be a lot of softening of VCT with the first half-hour of play, which my Gamma tension tester registers as a loss of tension. However, after that break-in period, the feel is very consistent for a very long time. I have over 20 hours of hitting with the same string job, and only see a minimum of notching, and the playability is the same. Also, the loss of tension does not result an increase in trampoline effect.

I figured that there wasn't going to be another string that could give the same results. Then just last night, I cut out Firewire Boost from my other racquet, and put in Tier One Black Knight 16 at 55#. I played 1.5 hours with it today. Wow! Another "holy grail" string?! When I played with it, it felt indistinguishable from VCT 16. Soft as a multifilament, great ball pocketing, good spin potential. Very consistent stringbed. Absolutely no arm pain after playing.

I don't yet have enough hours on T1 Black Knight to know if it will have playability as long as VCT 16. VCT 16 is just outstanding from a playability standpoint, as I people say most co-poly strings are "dead" (lose too much elasticity) after 2-4 weeks. I have been playing with the same VCT16 string for 6 weeks now and still feel the strings have the perfect amount of liveliness. In comparison, when I played with the Volkl Cyclone/GOSM hybrid, I felt the need to restring at least every 4 weeks.

For reference, I play about 5-8 hours/week at around a 3.5-4.0 level and am 47 years old.

Thanks for this. Very useful for me in particular. I experienced a bad bout of TE and had to change racquets and strings. I went on the same journey from full bed multi to eventually going back to poly. I have tried and like Firewire Boost and Cyclone 16g. Currently, I really like Grapplesnake Tour Sniper. I will try Cyclone Tour and BK. Are you still using the PK's?

 

[eah123]

Thanks for this. Very useful for me in particular. I experienced a bad bout of TE and had to change racquets and strings. I went on the same journey from full bed multi to eventually going back to poly. I have tried and like Firewire Boost and Cyclone 16g. Currently, I really like Grapplesnake Tour Sniper. I will try Cyclone Tour and BK. Are you still using the PK's?

Yes, I am still using PKs. My wife also switched to PK Ki 5 320. I recommend them to all of my friends who are fearful of injury in their "advanced" age.

 

[Nollid]

Yes, I am still using PKs. My wife also switched to PK Ki 5 320. I recommend them to all of my friends who are fearful of injury in their "advanced" age.

I have the Q+ tour pro and have the Q+5 pro on the way. Very good frames.

 

[Ryebread]

Are you a string breaker? Would you consider ditching 16 gauge and going to 17/18/19? Less stiff, typically. Playability is the same. More spin as you climb up. It also has an impact on balance. Which can be good or bad, depending on the player. More head light, with lighter gauges, obviously.
Thx for your share!

 

[tennisintheeighties]

Until now, the best one is the Luxilon Element from my point of view

 

[Sir Faultalot]

Interesting plug for black night. I thought that might be a harsh string given that it’s marketed for advanced players. I’ll have to order a few sets now

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

Interesting plug for black night. I thought that might be a harsh string given that it’s marketed for advanced players. I’ll have to order a few sets now

This is a head scratcher for me as well. Find BK to be muted and low powered fullbed.
Now put GW on the cross, then it does start to feel like a "holy grail" type stringbed.

 

[birdwizard]

Black Knight isn't what I call a comfort poly per se. I find the CYT quite soft though. Kirschbaum ProLine Evolution, Tier One Ghost Wire and Isospeed Cream have all been nice on my elbow.

 

[blai212]

I have found that black colored strings are usually on the deader side (must generate power yourself) Black knight was too low powered for me as well

 

[eah123]

Just wanted to update on my review of T1 Black Knight. It seems like all of the softness experienced during my first hitting session disappeared by the 2nd session. I had to exert considerably greater effort to avoid hitting the ball short. Also, it lost the nice feel on the backhand slice and touch volleys. I tried it for a 3rd hitting sessions today and couldn't stand the harshness after a few hits. So I can't recommend this string any more for people with sensitive elbows.

Volkl Cyclone Tour 16 on the other hand remains perfect in terms of arm friendliness, feel and power. I restrung it after 7 weeks of play, but feel like it could still be playable for another week.

 

[Dartagnan64]

there are no "good" co-poly's for sensitive elbows. Just one's that take longer than others to wreck your elbow.

Interesting that a recreational player would sacrifice long term arm health for more spin. I'm always interested in improving my spin but have acknowledged I have to do it with open string beds and better technique than harmful polyester strings.

Hope VCT remains "perfect" for you but it's still playing with fire. I've been burned too often.

 

[n8dawg6]

Interesting that a recreational player would sacrifice long term arm health for more spin.

Hope VCT remains "perfect" for you

interesting that a person who does not make a living playing tennis would sacrifice joint health by moving at a speed faster than a walk. hyperbole is fun

 

[Devil_dog]

Check me off as another fan of Volkl Cyclone Tour. One of the softest co-polys available, great spin response and also easy on the pocket book. I play a full bed of VCT on a 2021 Babolat PD plus, 17g @ 52#. I will attest that arround 4 weeks of play - the string seemingly loses some control for me. But a fresh set restores the control just fine.

 

[blai212]

Just wanted to update on my review of T1 Black Knight. It seems like all of the softness experienced during my first hitting session disappeared by the 2nd session. I had to exert considerably greater effort to avoid hitting the ball short. Also, it lost the nice feel on the backhand slice and touch volleys. I tried it for a 3rd hitting sessions today and couldn't stand the harshness after a few hits. So I can't recommend this string any more for people with sensitive elbows.

Volkl Cyclone Tour 16 on the other hand remains perfect in terms of arm friendliness, feel and power. I restrung it after 7 weeks of play, but feel like it could still be playable for another week.

I would think that BK would increase in power as it lost tension. I do agree it is quite underpowered so I like to use ghostwire as a cross to soften it up but then it becomes too launchy and the ‘feel’ is gone...touch becomes quite vague

 

[n8dawg6]

Check me off as another fan of Volkl Cyclone Tour. One of the softest co-polys available, great spin response and also easy on the pocket book. I play a full bed of VCT on a 2021 Babolat PD plus, 17g @ 52#. I will attest that arround 4 weeks of play - the string seemingly loses some control for me. But a fresh set restores the control just fine.

youve switched to the pd plus eh? i think we were debating pure aero/pure drive teams at one point. im grooving on the vc100 lately ... almost a reinvention of the APD wheel.

 

[ChanterRacquet]

I am just now testing VCT myself. Got it in a used racquet and loved it. Supposedly strung at 53 lbs, had made it down to 40 by the time I got it. Seems to play well there (dunlop cx 200 os). I get a little elbow soreness, not sure what to make of it as not near as painful as other setups.

Strung one of my other racquets (phantom 100x 290) with VCT at 55, RacquetTune said 54.4 by the time I got home. After drilling with a partner for an hour, overnight, and some serves today I’m down to 49 lbs. Hoping it will drop some more as this frame seems a bit underpowered and I was hoping VCT would lend a hand, but it isn’t quite yet. No elbow pain with this racquet.

I’d just about throw VCT in a Clash 100 if it results in a (co)poly I can play w/out elbow pain. Seems to be a great string.

 

[loosegroove]

How does VCT work in a hybrid with synthetic gut crosses? I've only used it as a full bed and am looking for a soft hybrid for my nephew.

 

[blai212]

How does VCT work in a hybrid with synthetic gut crosses? I've only used it as a full bed and am looking for a soft hybrid for my nephew.

I would use a soft copoly with good tension
maintenance such as ghostwire to soften up the string bed. SPPP and various other strings can do the job as well as long as they provide good feel and tension maintenance

 

[g4driver]

there are no "good" co-poly's for sensitive elbows. Just one's that take longer than others to wreck your elbow.

as a player with a sensitive elbow myself, and as a stringer who strings for a lot of 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 guys with sensitive elbows, VCT 1.30 isn't a good poly, it is an extraordinary poly for these players.

I've strung over 7000 frames in the last 5.5 years snd VCT 1.30mm is without a doubt the overwhelming choice for male 4.0 to 5.0 guys who can't hit with stiffer polys, but don't get TE or any elbow pain from VCT 1.30mm.

VCT 1.30mm intial stiffness rating of 161 ?? is lower than some multis yet remains playable for these players until breakage without giving them TE. VCT 1.30mm strung in the low to mid 50s will lose tension then settle in for a nice ride for much longer than 7-8 hours. lots of 4.0 and 4.5 male clients with sensitive elbow using VCT past 20 hours.

 

[loosegroove]

I would use a soft copoly with good tension
maintenance such as ghostwire to soften up the string bed. SPPP and various other strings can do the job as well as long as they provide good feel and tension maintenance

Thanks. Tension maintenance isn't a huge factor, I'm more concerned with how the twisted and shaped profile of VCT works with synthetic gut crosses. @g4driver , any input here?

 

[Wheelz]

as a player with a sensitive elbow myself, and as a stringer who strings for a lot of 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 guys with sensitive elbows, VCT 1.30 isn't a good poly, it is an extraordinary poly for these players.

I've strung over 7000 frames in the last 5.5 years snd VCT 1.30mm is without a doubt the overwhelming choice for male 4.0 to 5.0 guys who can't hit with stiffer polys, but don't get TE or any elbow pain from VCT 1.30mm.

VCT 1.30mm intial stiffness rating of 161 ?? is lower than some multis yet remains playable for these players until breakage without giving them TE. VCT 1.30mm strung in the low to mid 50s will lose tension then settle in for a nice ride for much longer than 7-8 hours. lots of 4.0 and 4.5 male clients with sensitive elbow using VCT past 20 hours.

yes, VCT 16 at 53 felt softer to me then hyper-g at 43. more pocketing, better feel.

 

[g4driver]

Thanks. Tension maintenance isn't a huge factor, I'm more concerned with how the twisted and shaped profile of VCT works with synthetic gut crosses. @g4driver , any input here?

@blai212 uses VCT 1.30mm with a smooth poly cross at lower tension. But all the clients I have use VCT at 50lbs and 52M/50X for two 5.0C rated men on the low end all the way to 58M/54X for 4.5A (appeal down 5.0) Erik Loesch in his 2013 Aero Pro Drive frames.

For clients who like using syn gut crosses, I have a 6'4" 26-year-old former collegiate basketball player using Volk Cyclone 1.25mm / Babolat Syn Gut 1.30mm crosses and it lasts him a few months playing once or twice a week. He doesn't play a lot due to work. So maybe he gets 12-15 hours out of it. I have no clients with VCT/ Syn Gut, but I do have two 13-year-olds who use VCT 1.30mm full bed. These kids hit with their coach's frames which is a Head Speed Graphene 16x19 and the coach felt the players were both at a level they could hit with VCT full beds. These kids use the exact frame at their coach and the same strings.

 

[onehandbh]

@blai212 uses VCT 1.30mm with a smooth poly cross at lower tension. But all the clients I have use VCT at 50lbs and 52M/50X for two 5.0C rated men on the low end all the way to 58M/54X for 4.5A (appeal down 5.0) Erik Loesch in his 2013 Aero Pro Drive frames.

For clients who like using syn gut crosses, I have a 6'4" 26-year-old former collegiate basketball player using Volk Cyclone 1.25mm / Babolat Syn Gut 1.30mm crosses and it lasts him a few months playing once or twice a week. He doesn't play a lot due to work. So maybe he gets 12-15 hours out of it. I have no clients with VCT/ Syn Gut, but I do have two 13-year-olds who use VCT 1.30mm full bed. These kids hit with their coach's frames which is a Head Speed Graphene 16x19 and the coach felt the players were both at a level they could hit with VCT full beds. These kids use the exact frame at their coach and the same strings.

How would you compare VCT 16 vs Volkl Cyclone 17 (1.25) ? I find VC 16 to be a bit too stiff and harsh (even at low tension), but like VC 17.

For my next reel I might give VCT 16 a try. I usually string VC 17 (full bed) anywhere from 52M/50X to 57M/55X in my yonex 95D

 

[g4driver]

How would you compare VCT 16 vs Volkl Cyclone 17 (1.25) ? I find VC 16 to be a bit too stiff and harsh (even at low tension), but like VC 17.

For my next reel I might give VCT 16 a try. I usually string VC 17 (full bed) anywhere from 52M/50X to 57M/55X in my yonex 95D

my .02, just try a pack of VCT 1.30mm before you buy a reel of it. You might not like it. I find VC 1.25mm (17) stiffer than VCT 1.30mm (16) in my own frames. One solution to all these stiffer polys that I have found to work very well, is to take a slick smooth poly like Ghostwire and use it in the crosses. I can hit with the following: VCT 1.30mm (softest setup) > Hyper G Soft 1.25mm mains / GW 1.22 crosses > Firewire 1.25mm / GW crosses and Hyper G 1.25mm mains / GW 1.22 mm crosses.

Firewire / Ghostwire holds tension the best of those four setups. I can't hit with a full bed of HG 1.25mm or Firewire 1.25mm, or 1.25mm Confidential for three days a week without my elbow getting sore. With VCT 1.30mm or HGS 1.25mm / GW 1.22mm, I can play 6 days a week with no issues. When I use FW/GW if I hit four days in a week my elbow feels it.

When I start playing just 2-3 days a week again, I will switch back to Firewire / Ghostwire as it is a great setup for me to hit 3 days a week without it dropping tension. HGS/ GW seems to die quicker than VCT for me, and I have been using HGS/GW for six months now.

 

[loosegroove]

Thanks @g4driver. I used various shaped polys with synthetic gut crosses for a while until I started shredding the crosses too quickly as I progressed. In my experience, I recall twisted polys were often easier on the crosses than standard shaped polys, so I think VCT is worth a try in a hybrid.

 

[rv75]

my .02, just try a pack of VCT 1.30mm before you buy a reel of it. You might not like it. I find VC 1.25mm (17) stiffer than VCT 1.30mm (16) in my own frames. One solution to all these stiffer polys that I have found to work very well, is to take a slick smooth poly like Ghostwire and use it in the crosses. I can hit with the following: VCT 1.30mm (softest setup) > Hyper G Soft 1.25mm mains / GW 1.22 crosses > Firewire 1.25mm / GW crosses and Hyper G 1.25mm mains / GW 1.22 mm crosses.

Firewire / Ghostwire holds tension the best of those four setups. I can't hit with a full bed of HG 1.25mm or Firewire 1.25mm, or 1.25mm Confidential for three days a week without my elbow getting sore. With VCT 1.30mm or HGS 1.25mm / GW 1.22mm, I can play 6 days a week with no issues. When I use FW/GW if I hit four days in a week my elbow feels it.

When I start playing just 2-3 days a week again, I will switch back to Firewire / Ghostwire as it is a great setup for me to hit 3 days a week without it dropping tension. HGS/ GW seems to die quicker than VCT for me, and I have been using HGS/GW for six months now.

@g4driver Off topic but which poly would you chose as a cross with VS Touch? Looking for the longest lasting option that would remain comfortable

 

[g4driver]

@g4driver Off topic but which poly would you chose as a cross with VS Touch? Looking for the longest-lasting option that would remain comfortable

I string a lot of both Lux 1.30mm and VS Touch 1.30mm / Ghostwire 1.27mm. I used to use Head Hawk as a cross and Wilson Revolve but honestly, I like Ghostwire better personally and the feedback from the client has been well received. It is about the least expensive NG/Poly setup until you get to the $40 per reel poly strings and Ghostwire is outstanding at a very good price IMO.

The best smooth poly for tension maintenance would be Lux 4G but many players don't find 4G comfortable. I have a few clients who use full beds of 4G Soft, as well as clients who use 4G in hybrids, but I have dozens of clients using VS Touch / Ghostwire. I have no clients using a 4G in a full bed

 

[taydbear7]

I'm a big fan of VCT thanks to @g4driver. I just got a set of 18g in and was going to try it in my VCP HD but thinking about going full bed of it in my Vcore 98+. The more I hit with Vcore 98+ the more I'm convince that is my racket.

 

[loosegroove]

I'm a big fan of VCT thanks to @g4driver. I just got a set of 18g in and was going to try it in my VCP HD but thinking about going full bed of it in my Vcore 98+. The more I hit with Vcore 98+ the more I'm convince that is my racket.

If you were a true disciple, you'd have gotten 16g

 

[Dartagnan64]

interesting that a person who does not make a living playing tennis would sacrifice joint health by moving at a speed faster than a walk. hyperbole is fun

Moving faster benefits cardiac health and longevity. So the health risk/benefit ratio still favors running over walking.

For poly strings, the health risk/benefit ratio isn't there. Nothing to do with hyperbole.

What is the appropriate sacrifice for sports performance? It's probably a good question. I would posit that if it takes you out of the game, it probably wasn't worth it. But some people may wish to push their peak and then flame out in glory. Makes sense if you can make millions at a sport. Not sure it makes sense so you can beat your buddy.

 

[g4driver]

If you were a true disciple, you'd have gotten 16g

haha

 

[onehandbh]

my .02, just try a pack of VCT 1.30mm before you buy a reel of it. You might not like it. I find VC 1.25mm (17) stiffer than VCT 1.30mm (16) in my own frames. One solution to all these stiffer polys that I have found to work very well, is to take a slick smooth poly like Ghostwire and use it in the crosses. I can hit with the following: VCT 1.30mm (softest setup) > Hyper G Soft 1.25mm mains / GW 1.22 crosses > Firewire 1.25mm / GW crosses and Hyper G 1.25mm mains / GW 1.22 mm crosses.

Firewire / Ghostwire holds tension the best of those four setups. I can't hit with a full bed of HG 1.25mm or Firewire 1.25mm, or 1.25mm Confidential for three days a week without my elbow getting sore. With VCT 1.30mm or HGS 1.25mm / GW 1.22mm, I can play 6 days a week with no issues. When I use FW/GW if I hit four days in a week my elbow feels it.

When I start playing just 2-3 days a week again, I will switch back to Firewire / Ghostwire as it is a great setup for me to hit 3 days a week without it dropping tension. HGS/ GW seems to die quicker than VCT for me, and I have been using HGS/GW for six months now.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Since I still have a 1/2 or 1/3 of a reel of VC 1.25 left, maybe I'll try a hybrid with Ghostwire 17 (1.22) first. Or maybe GW 16 (1.27).

 

[rv75]

What about color? Does one play softer than the other. And yes, I’ve heard that VCT 16g holds tension better

 

[g4driver]

What about color? Does one play softer than the other. And yes, I’ve heard that VCT 16g holds tension better

95% of my clients like the Anthracite color not for any reason other than it is neutral color. Some 4.0 and 4.0 guys want red, most want Anthracite.

just picked up a PS 97 v13 with broken VCT 1.30mm from a 4.5 that has been using VCT for 5 years

 

[Devil_dog]

youve switched to the pd plus eh? i think we were debating pure aero/pure drive teams at one point. im grooving on the vc100 lately ... almost a reinvention of the APD wheel.

Yeah, dawg, I switched about two years ago. I recall our posts about the "teams" frames! But I gradually bumped up heavier sticks - I needed more plow thru as I started playing guys that hit heavier balls. The Yonex VC100 is a sweet stick with nice flex. I tried out the DR100 but could never escape the Babolat "feel".

 

[Devil_dog]

95% of my clients like the Anthracite color not for any reason other than it is neutral color. Some 4.0 and 4.0 guys want red, most want Anthracite.

just picked up a PS 97 v13 with broken VCT 1.30mm from a 4.5 that has been using VCT for 5 years

Just to add my impressions: Red seems more lively which anthracite seems more muted and holds tension better... Not scientific of course. I use 17g at 52# with both colors.

 

[socallefty]

I am a 4.5 and I prefer HyperG and HyperG Soft by a wide margin over Cyclone Tour - more power, more spin, a bigger sweet spot and less boardy feel at the same tension strung on a Pure Strike Tour. I string in the mid-forties tension as I am in my fifties and have elbow discomfort with stiffer polys or higher tensions - I don‘t play with any of them for more than 15-20 hours.

So, while other player‘s preferences are good to know, you should try different strings yourself as you might have a different perspective.

 

[g4driver]

A full bed of HG along with many other strings is not a string I, nor any competent stringer, would recommend for players with sensitive elbows. If you have a sensitive elbow, I would recommend you start with softer setups than HG. HGS is notably softer to my own elbow.

One of the most recurring comments I get from clients is how they appreciate my approach to helping them find strings they like by removing all bias from their minds when I don't tell them what I put in their frames during their playtest of various strings. The playtest and labor are both free of charge, so there is no pressure for them to pick a string quickly. Most players find a setup within three-string recommendations from me. Some take longer. This process leads to loyal clients who trust me to help them.

@socallefty don't you use Natural Gut mains / HG or HGS crosses? If so, that isn't nearly as harsh on one's elbow as a full bed of HG. You are correct that players should try different strings as most players have preferences. Just make sure you start in the right place. I could write stories of new stringers at expensive clubhouses who learn to string after two weeks on the job and just start putting strings in frames knowing nothing about the client. 4G and elbow issues is a bad combo. This is why I have so many clients from these type tennis clubs.

But some players like myself can hit with four or five setups with no discernable difference in our play. I have two 4.5 guys like that and one 5.0. They all tell me " I am not string sensitive", meaning they can hit with many setups and play just as well with one vs the other. Plenty of clients like HG over VCT, but I have never heard VCT is more boardy than HG from 20 + 4.5 guys who all picked VCT over HG in blind playtests when they knew nothing about the strings in their frames. HG has a massive following among players including 3.0 women with Blade 98 frames (different story). But six or seven of those 4.5 guys using VCT were bumped to 5.0 in Dec 2019 after playing with VCT durIng the 2019 season. It is the archer, not the arrow. Those guys could win with anything they like so they get the credit, not the string. But it is just something for readers on here to note. Players with sensitive elbows can use and win at a level with VCT and get bumped to 5.0 with a string others feel is inferior.

HG is a great string for many players, but it isn't a great string for players with a history of TE who have sensitive elbows. For players who don't have a history of TE, HG works well for many players. Black Knight works better for some of those same players. BK has been well received by some 5.0 clients for what it is worth.

Ghostwire holds tension much better than both HG and HGS and doesn't saw through Natural Gut mains making NG/GW another well-received combo for two 4.5 clients. I don't know one client who would describe VCT as more boardy and less powerful than HG. Stringing 1200 frames a year to a lot of clients gives me a bigger picture to just how varied a player's elbow sensitivity can be at the same USTA level.

At the 4.5 and 5.0 level with players in their 40s to 50s, I have plenty of clients who use both HG and VCT in full beds. Those with a history of TE, have all picked VCT over HG. Those who like HG, but complain of its stiffness like HG/GW. And GW is how I frequently soften stiffer polys

 

[rv75]

I appreciate the advise. I too am playing with natural gut mains due to a sensitive elbow and looking for a long lasting soft poly. I have several hybrid sets of VS Touch/RPM blast. Can’t stand how the bed stiffened as soon as the RPM went dead. I tried regular HG crosses and didn’t find it comfortable. I have a set of HGS 16L and a set of GW 16 and a plan to restring in the next few days. Since NG is so expensive, what’s my best bet?

 

[socallefty]

I usually play with VS17/HG Soft 18 hybrids in matches at 47/44 on a Pure Strike Tour. It plays very well for about 15-18 hours and usually the gut mains break around that time for me on hard courts. If I play a lot of doubles and don’t already break the gut, it seems like the poly crosses go dead around 20 hours as I start feeling a bit of discomfort at that stage. That is longer than HyperG and other soft poly crosses which go dead around 15 hours and stiff polys like RPM Blast/ALU Power which go dead within 10 hours.

I do play fullbed polys in practice sometimes and I usually string them in the mid-forties. My favorite in fullbed and hybrids at this time is HyperG Soft followed by HyperG. I’ve tried ALU Power (which I like a lot for about 6-8 hours), RPM Blast, Tour Bite, Tour Bite soft, Cyclone, Cyclone Tour etc. typically in 17 or 18 gauge. I play about 400 hours a year with about 120 singles matches and 100 doubles matches at the 4.5 level.

@rv75 When you hybrid a poly, it doesn’t change the time duration at which the poly goes dead, but it does feel a bit softer in a hybrid when it is dead (and before). I tend to restring as soon as I feel any discomfort, but most of the time the gut breaks before that with all polys I’ve tried including HG Soft crosses.

 

[socallefty]

there are no "good" co-poly's for sensitive elbows. Just one's that take longer than others to wreck your elbow.

Interesting that a recreational player would sacrifice long term arm health for more spin. I'm always interested in improving my spin but have acknowledged I have to do it with open string beds and better technique than harmful polyester strings.

Hope VCT remains "perfect" for you but it's still playing with fire. I've been burned too often.

I think the main issue is that rec players keep playing with poly to save money even after it goes dead and they are feeling slight discomfort. If they restring right away as soon as they feel any discomfort, they would be fine. Also, many players don’t know that polys play very well with tension in the mid-high forties tension and instead they string close to the tensions they use with soft strings in the mid-high fifties. Poly at tensions in the mid-forties feels much more comfortable than the same string strung 10-15 lbs higher while not having much drop off in control at all.

The old stiff polys like ALU Power and RPM Blast go dead within 8-10 hours and many modern soft polys go dead within 12-15 hours. Very few polys cause no discomfort for more than 20 hours even at low tensions and players should not play longer than that before restringing. I had elbow issues in the past when I didn’t know that as most stringers don’t explain this to you.

Also, if you play with a racquet that has RA stiffness above 70, you should be careful with using poly - in fact I would suggest changing to a more flexible racquet so that you can enjoy polys. I don’t know too many 4.5+ players below the age of 60 who don’t use poly at least in a hybrid.

 

[n8dawg6]

Yeah, dawg, I switched about two years ago. I recall our posts about the "teams" frames! But I gradually bumped up heavier sticks - I needed more plow thru as I started playing guys that hit heavier balls. The Yonex VC100 is a sweet stick with nice flex. I tried out the DR100 but could never escape the Babolat "feel".

perhaps the first time ive seen the babolat feel described in a positive light ...

 

[socallefty]

perhaps the first time ive seen the babolat feel described in a positive light ...

Some associate a ‘stiff racquet’ feel with the Babolat brand as their two most popular models are stiff racquets like the Drive and Pure Aero. But they have always sold more flexible racquets like the Pure Control, Pure Storm, AeroStorm, Pure Strike VS Tour etc. Many of them have been great players racquets with heavy swingweight, thin beam etc.

 

[jmysun]

Anyone know how both of these are full bed in a rf97? How many hours are you averaging and what tension?

 

[SinneGOAT]

perhaps the first time ive seen the babolat feel described in a positive light ...

Babolat and feel? Excuse my chuckling...

 

[g4driver]

@rv75

NG 1.30mm / GW 1.27mm will outlast NG 1.30. / HGS 1.25mm for two reasons:

1) GW 1.27mm holds tension better than both 1.25 HG and 1.25mm HGS
2) GW is a smooth poly that doesn't saw the gut as quickly as shaped or edged poly will.

When you hybrid soft strings with polys, try to minimize the differential between the gauges. I use Lux NG 1.30mm / GW 1.27m in my personal frames when I want to have one frame with gut/poly. But I use HGS 1.25mm/1.22mm GW in my frames. If I were to put 1.22mm GW in the crosses with 1.30mm, the 1.22 mm GW would act like a sharper blade than 1.27mm GW. Think of a saw blade. The small the diameter of the cross, the more it will saw compared to the same string .05mm larger.

FWIW, I have zero clients using NG/ shaped polys or edged polys. That certainly doesn't mean using those setups are inferior in any manner, but they will require more frequent stringing for 99.5% of players who don't want to restring frequently due to cost or effort. Clients who string without breaking strings are probably less than 20 % of my clients.

@socallefty is rare in two ways: 1) he restrings when the poly dies which protects his wrist/elbow and 2) he uses a shaped poly HGS with NG which gets him to replace the setup as the NG breaks around the time the poly cross dies. His setup keeps him from developing TE and his past experience with TE had made him aware of the dangers of hitting with dead poly. Most players aren't in a position to restring with NG/ HGS every 15 hours and they dismiss the dangers of playing with dead poly. I have had TE twice, and know the warning signs and immediately stop using frames when the poly dies.

Some players can't afford Natural Gut even in a hybrid, especially stringing it every 20 hours. But as a stringer who not only understands the danger of dead poly, I also understand most players don't want to restring until they must. So I charge below MSRP price for all players using poly hoping they will restring frequently. Some take advantage of this but many don't. VCT is $10 per pack MSRP. I charge $7 for it. HG and HGS are $12 per pack MSRP, I charge $8 for a full bed or $4 for a 1/2 set.

As soon as I feel HGS die, it is rotated out of my bag and restrung. For clients who play until breakage with poly ( and I do not recommend this), that is where VCT stands apart from most polys in a manner that protects the players. VCT 1.30mm is the one poly I have found that 4.0 to 5.0 men can play with until breakage without giving them TE and they can win with it. One of the 4.5 guys who continue to use VCT 1.30mm until breakage in a PS 97 v 13 is a 52-year-old orthopedic surgeon. He can certainly afford new strings. @MisterP knows him well. He can afford frequent stringing, but he breaks VCT quickly enough that VCT has never hurt him. He has five or six frames, and breaks strings in 2-3 frames per month, and has been using VCT for 5 to 6 years now. I have numerous 4.5 guys and a few 5.0 guys like him. They simply break VCT 1.30mm before it hurts them.

Just try NG / GW and NG / HGS and see which one you like most. You are the only player who has to like a string setup.

 

[socallefty]

@socallefty is rare in two ways: 1) he restrings when the poly dies which protects his wrist/elbow and 2) he uses a shaped poly HGS with NG which gets him to replace the setup as the NG breaks around the time the poly cross dies. His setup keeps him from developing TE and his past experience with TE had made him aware of the dangers of hitting with dead poly. Most players aren't in a position to restring with NG/ HGS every 15 hours and they dismiss the dangers of playing with dead poly. I have had TE twice, and know the warning signs and immediately stop using frames when the poly dies.

Just try NG / GW and NG / HGS and see which one you like most. You are the only player who has to like a string setup.

This is very true. I’ve never understood why well-to-do guys who spend a lot on golf, expensive bottles of wine, good dinners at restaurants without thinking twice about it then refuse to restring their tennis racquets until their strings break. I know so many guys who play with old poly strings even after confessing that they are feeling elbow twinges, but they just can’t bring themselves to restring before their strings break. Then they spend thousands of dollars instead on chiropractors, deep tissue massage therapists and orthopedic surgeons when they get tennis elbow. I’ve made it my mission to educate people at my tennis club to restring poly often, but I have to say that it is a failing mission because mostly my words fall on deaf ears. I have posted this many times here too, but I don’t know if I converted anyone to this way of thinking.

I also play with gut/shaped poly not only because I want the gut to break before the poly goes dead, but also because I haven’t found a good gut/round poly combo that my stringer stocks that is better than gut/HGS and lasts more than 15 hours before I feel discomfort. Gut/ALU Power is great for about 6 hours and my stringer does not stock Tier One or Kirschbaum. While I could buy strings and take it to him, I like to support his small business by buying strings from him that he stocks.

 

[rv75]

@g4driver and @socallefty - thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am one of those who got GE from playing with dead poly because of lack of education. I can now tell when my elbow is not happy. NG is the most comfortable string for me but I have trouble with control which is why I like to cross it with poly. After being unable to play for almost a year, I invested in an alpha ghost 2 so that I can restring as often as needed. VS Touch is expensive though so I am trying to prolong its life as much as possible
If VCT 16g is not going to hurt me, I’m willing to try it and switch to it even if I have to string every couple of weeks. For now, I will use the 6 half sets of VS touch with GW 17g (just got a discounted reel at the famous auction site although I would’ve preferred 16g). I will also try it with HGS since I have a set

 

[n8dawg6]

This is very true. I’ve never understood why well-to-do guys who spend a lot on golf, expensive bottles of wine, good dinners at restaurants without thinking twice about it then refuse to restring their tennis racquets until their strings break. I know so many guys who play with old poly strings even after confessing that they are feeling elbow twinges, but they just can’t bring themselves to restring before their strings break. Then they spend thousands of dollars instead on chiropractors, deep tissue massage therapists and orthopedic surgeons when they get tennis elbow. I’ve made it my mission to educate people at my tennis club to restring poly often, but I have to say that it is a failing mission because mostly my words fall on deaf ears. I have posted this many times here too, but I don’t know if I converted anyone to this way of thinking.

I also play with gut/shaped poly not only because I want the gut to break before the poly goes dead, but also because I haven’t found a good gut/round poly combo that my stringer stocks that is better than gut/HGS and lasts more than 15 hours before I feel discomfort. Gut/ALU Power is great for about 6 hours and my stringer does not stock Tier One or Kirschbaum. While I could buy strings and take it to him, I like to support his small business by buying strings from him that he stocks.

the wife gets annoyed w me bc i restring so often. its always pretty clear when those strings are dead. theyre “sticky”