Watching lady pancake her serve !!

[WildVolley]

He is a big guy with a good throwing motion though - so bam big serves. Like I said if you sent out a a tennis coach to some local varsity sports teams they could find several guys they could coach up to hit big serves in a very short time. Truth is low level league teams are stocked with very unathletic guys who didn't play in alot of team sports in HS..

That JMike guy has a serious throwing ability. I think if you watch his videos you'll see that he's actually left-handed and he's serving over 120mph with his right hand. He has videos of himself throwing a football farther than LeeD could throw at his best.

Discussions of serve speed always bring out weirdness. Admittedly, high serve speeds by amateurs are rare. FYBs had some data which suggested more than half of all rec players don't hit over 80mph. However, I've measured low level players slap in serves at over 90mph with a SW-fh grip. These were low % serves as they were hit with underspin by aggressive young men. These were definitely players below 4.0 level.

Once you get over 100mph the percentage of players hitting that speed gets very small. Whenever someone makes a claim here of hitting over 100mph, a certain number of poasters freak out. The assertion that 4.0 poasters on TTW claiming to hit 120mph is ubiquitous is delusional. Even here, the claims of reaching that level are rare, and most of the poasters claiming such will admit that very high speeds can't be hit consistently. The only players I can recall who talked of consistently hitting over 120mph were either futures-level players or ex-Division 1 players.

 

[movdqa]

That JMike guy has a serious throwing ability. I think if you watch his videos you'll see that he's actually left-handed and he's serving over 120mph with his right hand. He has videos of himself throwing a football farther than LeeD could throw at his best.

Discussions of serve speed always bring out weirdness. Admittedly, high serve speeds by amateurs are rare. FYBs had some data which suggested more than half of all rec players don't hit over 80mph. However, I've measured low level players slap in serves at over 90mph with a SW-fh grip. These were low % serves as they were hit with underspin by aggressive young men. These were definitely players below 4.0 level.

Once you get over 100mph the percentage of players hitting that speed gets very small. Whenever someone makes a claim here of hitting over 100mph, a certain number of poasters freak out. The assertion that 4.0 poasters on TTW claiming to hit 120mph is ubiquitous is delusional. Even here, the claims of reaching that level are rare, and most of the poasters claiming such will admit that very high speeds can't be hit consistently. The only players I can recall who talked of consistently hitting over 120mph were either futures-level players or ex-Division 1 players.

I made the claim of a friend with 120+ MBP Radar-measured serve for a USTA former tournament 4.0 player. I've seen him beat 4.5 tournament players though. He has the size and the strength so that you'd believe it.

There's a video of LeeD serving where the ball lands about 6 feet high on the back fence. The angle is even wider than the video that we just saw on the Ad-side. So was LeeD serving faster than this guy? There may be some variance on the distance to the back fence from the baseline and the nature of the surface may make a difference but LeeD did show some decent heat on his serve.

Yesterday, the guy I was playing (former open player and retired) hit a serve down the middle that hit around 6 feet on the back curtain. I think that it's the fastest serve I've seen him hit. It was a foot long) I couldn't reach it and just watched it. He's been doing a lot of work on his serve lately but his height is a limiting factor. There was also no spin on it. So I guess that you could call him a falling 4.25.

The human body and mind has a great variation for capacity. What percentage of the population could pass a university Physics for Scientists and Engineers course? What percentage of the population could earn a Masters in Electrical Engineering? Sit in on a few of the weeders and I think that the vast majority would think it impossible. How many people could run 10 MPH? Given that over half of people are overweight or obese, I'd guess that most people couldn't envision running that fast. And yet there are a lot of competitive runners that this wouldn't be a big deal for. And then you have people that can run at 15 MPH. I know what the body stresses are like at 11 MPH and I can't imagine running 15 MPH. Ever. And yet there are a few people that can do it. Maybe more than a few. There are lots of levels to every game.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Discussions of serve speed always bring out weirdness.
.....
The assertion that 4.0 poasters on TTW claiming to hit 120mph is ubiquitous is delusional. Even here, the claims of reaching that level are rare, and most of the poasters claiming such will admit that very high speeds can't be hit consistently. The only players I can recall who talked of consistently hitting over 120mph were either futures-level players or ex-Division 1 players.

"I'm certain I've hit over 120mph" -- WildVolley, March 27, 2014. Not just 120 but over 120!

 

[WildVolley]

"I'm certain I've hit over 120mph" -- WildVolley, March 27, 2014. Not just 120 but over 120!

And I was only about a 4.0 at that time(which was years ago - meaning when I hit over 120mph, not when I wrote the post about it). I don't know of any other 4.0 player on here who has made that claim. My one claim hardly makes it ubiquitous.

Though I'm playing above 4.0 at the moment, I don't claim to serve over 120mph anymore because I'm not. Age and shoulder injuries can limit your ability to hit hard serves. I've really backed off on my serving and rarely hit over 100mph these days.

 

[movdqa]

And I was only about a 4.0 at that time(which was years ago - meaning when I hit over 120mph, not when I wrote the post about it). I don't know of any other 4.0 player on here who has made that claim. My one claim hardly makes it ubiquitous.

Though I'm playing above 4.0 at the moment, I don't claim to serve over 120mph anymore because I'm not. Age and shoulder injuries can limit your ability to hit hard serves. I've really backed off on my serving and rarely hit over 100mph these days.

Video?

It would be nice to extrapolate.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

What scares me the most is watching #2 and #3, and thinking these are probably actual TT members that give their opinion in the racquets and/or strings forum.

EDIT: don't mean to offend anyone you know... but I've always thought TT members should mandatory disclose their tennis level, especially when discussing equipment. If I want an opinion on RPM Blast, I want it from someone who hits like me, or close to. NOT from #3.

Lol, I agree with you,...
Last thing I want is someone like my dad (3.0), who's trying out poly <fill in brand>,.. give advice on how the poly <fill in brand> hasn't helped him hit topspin (he also uses a continental grip, and swings barely hard enough to crack an egg)...
or a guy commenting on how poly didn't help his kick serve (but fails to disclose he still uses an frying pan grip).

 

[WildVolley]

Video?

It would be nice to extrapolate.

I've never posted video. Though in my defense, Sureshs has seen me play and can attest that I can serve, though I don't think I hit over 100mph in the doubles match he saw part of this year. That has to be at least as good as LeeD getting players who have hit with him to vouch for his serve speed.

I don't really care if people believe me. I will note that 1) I have a radar gun and 2) measured a number of serves over 110mph in practice the month when I make the claim that I hit a number of first serves in during a match at over 120mph. I'm fairly certain that they were over 120mph because they looked and felt considerably faster than my practice serves. And let me assure you those serves didn't come back.

 

[GuyClinch]

Once you get over 100mph the percentage of players hitting that speed gets very small. Whenever someone makes a claim here of hitting over 100mph, a certain number of poasters freak out. The assertion that 4.0 poasters on TTW claiming to hit 120mph is ubiquitous is delusional. Even here, the claims of reaching that level are rare, and most of the poasters claiming such will admit that very high speeds can't be hit consistently. The only players I can recall who talked of consistently hitting over 120mph were either futures-level players or ex-Division 1 players.

Agree. Key takeaway though - IMHO is that serving is its own thing. It's not really 'fair' - practice time on the court will not necessarily get you serving big. You need to be have decent length - a good throwing motion - and some shoulder flexibility - as well as some coordination and athleticism. Have all of that - and you can serve big.

Its not strictly tennis related - no doubt playing some tennis will get you to your potential faster - but you can play a lot of tennis and never have a big serve. It's almost like a vertical jump.. You can train your vertical - you can grow it - but there is always a chance some dude who doesn't even practice the high jump can out jump some guy who has been working on it for years.

On the flip side its not related to NTRP or tennis experience. Sometimes you will run into a big server that's lower level. They might not stay there long - but it happens. These guys have all the tools needed for a big serve - but just haven't played a lot of tennis yet.

Some players want to believe that tennis is all practice and effort - so this idea bugs them. They also want to believe that anyone who serves big is automatically high level - but again not true. You could be pretty mediocre at tennis and have a big serve. YOu can be pretty damn good and have a slow serve.. Frequently older players fall into this category.. Limited shoulder mobility - limited athleticism - never learned a throwing motion.. But they could still play 4.5 doubles..

 

[shindemac]

I have a friend who was a former college athlete, and he has an advantage in most new sports he picks up. He's a very good thrower because that's what he did, but also things like balance, coordination, hand-eye, etc. all come into play for all sports. Even in college, there were competition better than him and he could never catch up no matter how much he practiced. Some of the things he told me he could do like how far he could throw a football, i prolly wouldn't believe him if someone else told me except when you see him in person and he tells you his background.

Even many years removed from his college days, he's still very athletic. If you can casually join an advanced adult league and be way better than everyone on it, plus hit the ball so hard that you have hurt them because they can't get out of the way fast enough. He doesn't play tennis, but I knew a high school pitcher that hit the back fence like 6 feet up on his first try, so I can't imagine what a college thrower would do. So yes, i've personally seen guys who can throw, and they can serve hard wo ever playing tennis.

I have a radar gun, and I can't throw very hard. I didn't play any throwing sports growing up. But I was able to improve my serve 20mph. As a quick test, take a ball and see how far you can throw it on the tennis court. Can you throw it over the back fence? Reach the back fence? Or even reach the opposite baseline? I think anyone can improve a mediocre serve if they practice if I could do it. You don't have to be a thrower. I think improving athletic ability will net big gains if you are not up to snuff, no matter how good the tennis skills are.

 

[jm1980]

Quite a few kids can bring it into the 80s at the HS level - it depends where you go to school I suppose. But in most schools you have 3 or 4 guys that can do it - mutiply that by 1000's of school - you get quite a few kids. Later on some of these kids will have gone on to pick up rec tennis - and boom you have the big serving low ranked player.. Think of all those college players/hs varsity kids that now work at car dealerships or whatever..

This guy - is like a 4.0 - 4.5 at best - played in HS - but doesn't actually play tennis he is a bodybuilder.. Legit 120mph serve..

He is a big guy with a good throwing motion though - so bam big serves. Like I said if you sent out a a tennis coach to some local varsity sports teams they could find several guys they could coach up to hit big serves in a very short time. Truth is low level league teams are stocked with very unathletic guys who didn't play in alot of team sports in HS..

That's one of the best things about tennis - its very approachable for non-athletes. They think that they can practice and think their way through it. And you can to some extent. But on the serve - having a good throwing motion and good shoulder mobility is like 90% of the battle. So the non-athlete that practices forever can get shown up by some non-tennis player with a few weeks of practice.

This grinds the gears of some people on this forum - but that's how it is. Ask the serve Doctor - when he gets to work with a former throwing athlete - its like most of his work is done..

Way to completely miss the point. Will an athletic person, specially one with a good throwing motion with minimal training outperform most amateur tennis players? Sure. I'm not arguing that.

I'm just questioning how a guy, who has presumably been playing tennis for a while, still stuck at 3.0 with a 100+ mph serve.

PS: Quality of high school athletes varies greatly. In some places the best tennis player may be a 3.0 equivalent while in other places you'll have prospective pros. There aren't that many kids who can consistently throw an 85mph fastball either

 

[Chas Tennis]

Reference on throwing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3785139/

The introductory part gives a detailed discussion of the use of elastic energy by the shoulder for throwing. This throwing description is functionally the same as the biomechanics applied in the tennis serve.

Quoting from the above reference -

"Elastic energy storage has been shown to be an important source of power amplification for many high-powered movements18,19. We propose that several evolutionarily novel features in the human shoulder help store and release elastic energy to generate much of the power needed for rapid humeral rotation during human throwing. According to this model, energy storage occurs during the arm-cocking phase (Fig. 1A), which begins with completion of a large step towards the target. As the foot hits the ground, the arm is already externally rotated, horizontally extended, and abducted nearly 90° at the shoulder, with forearm flexion approaching 90° at the elbow13. As the cocking phase begins, large torques are generated by rapid rotation of the torso towards the target and by the activation of the major shoulder horizontal flexor, Pectoralis major11,16. The positioning of the shoulder and elbow at this time increase the mass moment of inertia around the long axis of the humerus, causing the forearm and hand to lag behind the accelerating torso. Further, a flexed elbow during the cocking phase allows passive inertial forces to externally counter rotate the arm, stretching the short, parallel tendons, ligaments, and elastic components of muscles that cross the shoulder, potentially storing elastic energy in the large aggregate cross-sectional area of these structures (Supplementary Note 4). Then, when the biceps deactivate and elbow extension begins, the arm’s moment of inertia is reduced, allowing these stretched elements to recoil, releasing energy, and helping to power the extremely rapid internal rotation of the humerus (Supplementary Note 5)."

 

[tennis_ocd]

Video?

It would be nice to extrapolate.

This could go on for another 10 pages of testosterone filled stories but you'll never see a 4.0 guy posting video of 120 heat. Bank on it.

 

[movdqa]

This could go on for another 10 pages of testosterone filled stories but you'll never see a 4.0 guy posting video of 120 heat. Bank on it.

What do you mean?

We have that video of LeeD!

And Sureshs is going to get there any day now.

 

[tennis_ocd]

What do you mean?

We have that video of LeeD!

And Sureshs is going to get there any day now.

lol. The only vids of seen of LeeD has that serve bouncing to the back fence on a warm day. All good rec stuff but 120 is a whole other world. Frankly it's big stuff in the best D1/challenger world.

 

[GuyClinch]

That is precisely the point, a guy who serves big should be a pretty good athlete. With minimal tennis practice someone with the athletic ability to serve 100+ would not be a 3.0. Do you know how bad 3.0s are? Real 100+ mphs serves are rare even at 3.5

Would have probably been bumped up this year - but went back to India I guess.... This guy had not just the hardest 3.0 serve I have seen - but one of the hardest serves at the courts at any given time. His serve is straight up HUGE..LMAO. I hope he comes back I will film it. But his second serve is just a total dink - its hilarious. I think his serve percentage on his first serve is fairly low too..

You have to understand he was tight with the captain. He wasn't in it to go up levels - he just wants to help the captain make the playoffs.. lots of sandbagging in NorCal area.. If you play singles in NorCal - you get slotted against the toughest other guys - who are realistically often at least a half level better then your doubles guys..

 

[dgold44]

I am very confident next year I will get bumped to 4.5

4.0 level is just too loaded with hacks and lousy technique but has good athletics and tough competitors.

I could be in Phoenix or Vegas next year and I never ever play outside so maybe 2 years then.

 

[Simon_the_furry]

Quite a few kids can bring it into the 80s at the HS level - it depends where you go to school I suppose. But in most schools you have 3 or 4 guys that can do it - mutiply that by 1000's of school - you get quite a few kids. Later on some of these kids will have gone on to pick up rec tennis - and boom you have the big serving low ranked player.. Think of all those college players/hs varsity kids that now work at car dealerships or whatever..

I'm an HS freshman and I hit with a D1 player (who obviously smokes me every time, lol). He says my average first serve is high 80s-low 90s, although rarely I can hit triple digits.
I'm certainly not the best player around, but I honestly haven't seen that many HS kids who can serve faster than me.

 

[movdqa]

I'm an HS freshman and I hit with a D1 player (who obviously smokes me every time, lol). He says my average first serve is high 80s-low 90s, although rarely I can hit triple digits.
I'm certainly not the best player around, but I honestly haven't seen that many HS kids who can serve faster than me.

You have plenty of time to get bigger and stronger and improve technique.

 

[Simon_the_furry]

You have plenty of time to get bigger and stronger and improve technique.

I know, I'm just running out of time to play D1 :I
My goal is to at least get to D1 college tennis

 

[LeeD]

Friday an off day after morning tennis, so I went to GGPark in SF to watch the high school match's.
Lowell was playing, as was McAteer, against some other high school.
The No.1's all had correct serving form, some guys 6'2" tall, but not fully developed. I'd say, first top/slice serve in the mid 90's MAX, didn't see any flat first serves. Watched for over 2 hours, both competing match's, so 4 No. 1's, 4 No.2's, and 4 No.3's. Average real match play first serve speeds maybe mid 80's, lots of spin.
I'd think a 24 year old with the same prior tennis training would be hitting into the mid 1 and teens, same size, same experience. High schooler's are just not fully physically developed yet.

 

[movdqa]

Friday an off day after morning tennis, so I went to GGPark in SF to watch the high school match's.
Lowell was playing, as was McAteer, against some other high school.
The No.1's all had correct serving form, some guys 6'2" tall, but not fully developed. I'd say, first top/slice serve in the mid 90's MAX, didn't see any flat first serves. Watched for over 2 hours, both competing match's, so 4 No. 1's, 4 No.2's, and 4 No.3's. Average real match play first serve speeds maybe mid 80's, lots of spin.
I'd think a 24 year old with the same prior tennis training would be hitting into the mid 1 and teens, same size, same experience. High schooler's are just not fully physically developed yet.

Certainly not a freshman high-schooler.

I've played against a former junior with a 120+ MPH serve (very tall, thin but muscular). I don't know how he played as a junior but he used the Hyper Pro Staff 95 Stretch would would be considered a heavy racquet by today's standards. Most of the juniors that I see play today have kick serves - I don't see the flat stuff.

 

[LeeD]

No. ONE's are usually seniors.
Small sample group, I do know a 6'7" junior who play's No.3 for Berkeley high who can serve much harder than mid teens, but his mental makeup doesn't allow for missing many first serves, as his game is consistency, standing close to the baseline, and taking time away after the point starts.

 

[movdqa]

No. ONE's are usually seniors.
Small sample group, I do know a 6'7" junior who play's No.3 for Berkeley high who can serve much harder than mid teens, but his mental makeup doesn't allow for missing many first serves, as his game is consistency, standing close to the baseline, and taking time away after the point starts.

Yes, I see gifted kids that are still kids. I think that college fixes those problems.

 

[LeeD]

Of course, recently graduated high schooler can easily serve into the lower 120's.
Walnut Creek, I think Campolindo, has a former No.1 who just graduated, who won the Open division at Berkeley City Open. His top/slice serve had to go 110+, and he was only 5'10" tall. Flattenned out, easy 125+.

 

[LeeD]

Oh....
6'7" kid, junior who just finished his tennis season this year, has a pancake service motion. Not as bad as many, he does turn more than fully sideways, but his trophy position starts with the racket pointing down and back with some off to the side. He's an all State baseball 1st baseman, was invited to go to Puerto Rico with his little brother last week, but declined for his high school's tennis finals.
So, given enough athletics, and some real height, a pancake serve can still go upwards into almost ATP level speeds. This kid is a really thin junior, his Dad a stocky Viking, so when he fill's in, that serve, same motion, is going up to the 130's easy, if he sticks with tennis another 3 years.

 

[meltphace 6]

COACH BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Pardon the redundancy but I'll repeat this theory of mine for the fourth or fifth time in a couple of years: If (1) you're over 35 years of age, and (2) you've been playing regular tennis - let's say at least 2-3 times per week - for at least five years, then you're *almost* as good as you're ever going to be unless you're willing to go to *extreme* lengths to improve (15 hours a week, coaching, etc). Some folks can ramp up the playing a little bit and get some good coaching and maybe improve by a 1/4 or 1/2 an NTRP point over a few years - maybe. But for the vast majority of folks, if you meet criteria 1 and 2, in my opinion, you're about as good as you're going to get.

Again, just my two cents (again).

Yes, most people level off after a couple of years and never get better.
That's because most people never hire a coach. Maybe they take a few group lessons and that's it.
Most you see are too old to learn new tricks, and are a lost cause.
eg: The retired women at the club I play with all frying pan serves.
It's obvious they have been doing this for decades, and will not reinvent their games at this point. Let them have their social fun, they are not trying to be competitive.

However, if you're talking about a 3.0 or 3.5 male in his 30s or 40s, there is a TON of room for improvement.
This is b/c most 3.5 players don't really know how to play. They can't get their serves in. They have absolutely no net game to speak of.
At 3.0 and 3.5 level, you barely know how to play real tennis. You basically know 2 groundstrokes, and some topspin, and play a match around massive gaping holes and those 2 groundstrokes.
My whole life I was facing the wrong way when serving. I had a plink 2nd serve. I used forehand grip for every stroke. I never went to the net or knew how to volley.
And I a 3.5 player

If one makes the decision to actually rebuild their entire game from scratch, there is massive amounts of improvement left on the table.
I am talking quantum leaps within just a few lessons. Even one lesson, if they get a real coach who has a clue.

You can see a change for as little as $1000 in lessons, and a real change with $10,000 in coaching fees. Most people never do this, but it can easily be done.
2 lessons a week of feed and feedback can go a long way to re-learning the entire game (and learning entire aspects like serving and volley and approach that most people never ever learn)

 

[movdqa]

Yes, most people level off after a couple of years and never get better.
That's because most people never hire a coach. Maybe they take a few group lessons and that's it.
Most you see are too old to learn new tricks, and are a lost cause.
eg: The retired women at the club I play with all frying pan serves.
It's obvious they have been doing this for decades, and will not reinvent their games at this point. Let them have their social fun, they are not trying to be competitive.

However, if you're talking about a 3.0 or 3.5 male in his 30s or 40s, there is a TON of room for improvement.
This is b/c most 3.5 players don't really know how to play. They can't get their serves in. They have absolutely no net game to speak of.
At 3.0 and 3.5 level, you barely know how to play real tennis. You basically know 2 groundstrokes, and some topspin, and play a match around massive gaping holes and those 2 groundstrokes.
My whole life I was facing the wrong way when serving. I had a plink 2nd serve. I used forehand grip for every stroke. I never went to the net or knew how to volley.
And I a 3.5 player

If one makes the decision to actually rebuild their entire game from scratch, there is massive amounts of improvement left on the table.
I am talking quantum leaps within just a few lessons. Even one lesson, if they get a real coach who has a clue.

You can see a change for as little as $1000 in lessons, and a real change with $10,000 in coaching fees. Most people never do this, but it can easily be done.
2 lessons a week of feed and feedback can go a long way to re-learning the entire game (and learning entire aspects like serving and volley and approach that most people never ever learn)

Some people can learn a fair amount from video and feedback. I think that most don't learn well this way but it would be a way to save a few bucks.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...aches-can-actually-coach-worth-a-damn.579380/

 

[GuyClinch]

However, if you're talking about a 3.0 or 3.5 male in his 30s or 40s, there is a TON of room for improvement.
This is b/c most 3.5 players don't really know how to play. They can't get their serves in. They have absolutely no net game to speak of.
At 3.0 and 3.5 level, you barely know how to play real tennis. You basically know 2 groundstrokes, and some topspin, and play a match around massive gaping holes and those 2 groundstrokes.
My whole life I was facing the wrong way when serving. I had a plink 2nd serve. I used forehand grip for every stroke. I never went to the net or knew how to volley.
And I a 3.5 player

You are a 3.5 player? What team are you on? Link..

3.5s know how to play tennis.. Might look ugly on video but IRL everyone would think they are 'good' at tennis even..

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Yes, but you can get to 3.5 just by pushing and having basic topspin.
When I say "knows how to play", I mean looking like D1 mechanics.
Proper footwork, strong kicker 2nd serve, solid volley game, etc.
Most 3.5 players are baseline sluggers who have major holes in their game.

 

[GPBurdell]

Yes, but you can get to 3.5 just by pushing and having basic topspin.
When I say "knows how to play", I mean looking like D1 mechanics.
Proper footwork, strong kicker 2nd serve, solid volley game, etc.
Most 3.5 players are baseline sluggers who have major holes in their game.

I will agree that no 3.5 players have all of that...
Doesn't mean they can't play "real tennis"

 

[Dartagnan64]

I will agree that no 3.5 players have all of that...
Doesn't mean they can't play "real tennis"

Exactly I might be a lowly 3.5 but all my non-tennis playing friends think I'm a good tennis player. I would destroy them on the court because they can't play tennis "real or otherwise".

I know how to consistently keep a ball in play, I can go for shots on short balls and I can serve twice as fast as any of them and put spin on the ball. That's the basics of tennis.

The real reason a lot of people don't invest tons of money and time into getting better at tennis is because of diminishing returns. As you get better your pool of competitive opposition shrinks considerably. It's more fun to play recreationally at 3.5-4.0 with a bunch of guys you like than to struggle to find anyone in the 5.0-5.5 world who may or may not be fun to play against.
So you spend all this money, practice thousands of hours so you can no longer find players and leagues to play in.

Sometimes what is best is to learn some fundamentals, work on honing some skills as time allows and play lots of fun matches with friends. Not saying that's for everyone but its not a reason to whine about people not doing their utmost to get better. It's recreation. It's supposed to be fun.

 

[GuyClinch]

Yes, but you can get to 3.5 just by pushing and having basic topspin.
When I say "knows how to play", I mean looking like D1 mechanics.
Proper footwork, strong kicker 2nd serve, solid volley game, etc.
Most 3.5 players are baseline sluggers who have major holes in their game.

That's like saying the local guys at the Y who can't dunk from the foul line have 'holes' in their game and can't play basketball.. That doesn't really make sense. League rated 3.5 IRL - look like guys who are pretty into tennis - that's what they are.

I'd rate it like this..
2.5 - likes tennis - doesn't really know how to play it yet. Can hit some good shots now and then.
3.0 - likes tennis - knows how to play some - not very good yet. hits some shots where that in isolation they look what they know what they are doing.
3.5 likes tennis - knows how to play - considered good by most people who are not in leagues - wives - kids etc. The men can often pound pretty respectable forehands..Can warmup players. Can rally for many balls.
4.0 loves tennis - knows how to play - other league players consider that guy very good. Usually has multiple shots they can hit well.
4.5 great players - knows how to play - random people out at courts will watch them play without having any relationship (fans) - can usually hit serves for aces - forehands for winners. Are often athletic and can cover the court. Usually fit. Random people will ask for advice. Wife will bring food.
5.0 - College player/teaching pro - hitting for fun.. Very few league players this level.. This is almost outside of league tennis.. When they say they don't know their rating - they mean it. They are open level 5.0+ Have played for money or teach for money or played Div. I.
To the untrained eye IRL they look like pros if they have stayed in shape..

What people forget is that league tennis is actually competitive. that means these guys on teams all want to be heroes. So they are expected to outplay their 'forum level' by a long shot.

It's just the opposite on say craig list. There are no 3.5s on craiglist - and any there are just rank beginners.

 

[Bobs tennis]

Guy Clinch-I think your serve is a lot like mine "no racket drop"-I think I would settle for server #6-atleast some drop. I'm really possessed with getting it and when it happens the serve is so much better and smooth.

 

[GuyClinch]

Guy Clinch-I think your serve is a lot like mine "no racket drop"-I think I would settle for server #6-atleast some drop. I'm really possessed with getting it and when it happens the serve is so much better and smooth.

I been practicing throwing some so my serve is working better nowadays. I am actually scared to video it because its work fine right now. Maybe after the over 40 season is over.. I need to win matches for my captain. Likely its still a crime against nature. I am so tall any crap technique would work.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

What a great list of levels.
I agree that a 5.0 can be mistaken for a pro by someone who does not seriously play tennis.
Mechanics and appearances, a 3.5 is farther from a 5.0 than a 5.0 is from a pro.

 

[GuyClinch]

I agree that a 5.0 can be mistaken for a pro by someone who does not seriously play tennis.
Mechanics and appearances, a 3.5 is farther from a 5.0 than a 5.0 is from a pro.

Yup. 5.0 just lack athleticism, size and some fitness a lot of the time.

 

[navigator]

I am talking quantum leaps within just a few lessons. Even one lesson, if they get a real coach who has a clue.

Superb. Then why not come back to us AFTER you've made all of these amazing leaps in skill level and show us how you did it. That would be quite something. In the meantime, my favorite saying: Words are plentiful; deeds are precious. Less typing, more doing. Typing is easy; doing is difficult. Good luck!

 

[Simon_the_furry]

My whole life I was facing the wrong way when serving. I had a plink 2nd serve. I used forehand grip for every stroke. I never went to the net or knew how to volley.
And I a 3.5 player

That is NOT 3.5 play.
When I was a 3.5, I had all three types of serve in my arsenal, used a correct backhand grip, and often attempted net play. I could hit every shot in the book (although, admittedly, not all of them well), save the tweener.
Seriously, that sounds like 2.5 play at best.

 

[Bender]

Well I agree. It's no fun to be a 2.5 who can barely hit over the net. It's more fun to be 6.0.

But let's be real - there is a ceiling for most rec players. Most people don't train for tennis and/or browse nerd forums like we do. As long as people aren't hurting themselves, I say more power to them.

90% of tennis players play with technique that this whole forum would laugh at, I'm guessing. Any one of us could go to our local courts and film locals and upload to here and we could all laugh at them...but really that's quite immature and stupid.

You mean 90% of this forum play with technique that only 10% of this forum have a right to laugh at. I count myself as the 90%.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You may have a point.
Maybe I had the groundstrokes of a 3.5 and nothing else.
But you know what, at 3.5 you can be competitive regardless.
But yea, I'll say high 3.0 who can hit with 3.5

Moot point now since I am now a solid 3.5 and can beat 3.5's

 

[Bender]

Video or this isn't to be believed. I rarely believe braggarts on Internet forums but don't take that as an insult.

I don't think anyone can serve harder, ELeeD serves than LeeD himself.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

That is NOT 3.5 play.
When I was a 3.5, I had all three types of serve in my arsenal, used a correct backhand grip, and often attempted net play. I could hit every shot in the book (although, admittedly, not all of them well), save the tweener.
Seriously, that sounds like 2.5 play at best.

at 3.5 i had a "big" 1st serve (that never went in), dink 2nd serve.
at 3.5 i did not have a backhand
at 3.5 i never came to net
getting to 4.0 was about me learning a consistent topspin serve (ie. 2nd serve), and a backhand
I never started coming to net until ~high 4.0, and i only did that because occasionally i was invited to pay 4.5 dubs (when no one was avail)
getting to 4.5 was about me learning to place my kick serve, and develop a more consistent first serve, and revamp my fh (hawaiian -> sw) to be able to drive/attack with my fh (eg. a weapon)

i still only have 2 serves:
* topslice: used for 1st serves
* kick: used for 1st and 2nd serves
I never hit pure slice

Most stereotypical 3.5's imo are described as:
* no bh (weak at best)
* dinky 2nd serve and/or can't place it consistently
* can't attack or dictate play (worried about just "getting it back")
* no net game (or weak blocking volleys)... doubles is typically 1 up 1 back, with folks diligently covering sidelines.

@Simon_the_furry your 3.5 game is atypical imo...

ps. i still can't hit a tweener

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I think it's safe to say that 3.5 is a total bag of randomness. Who ever gets the ball in will win.

I believe my post about the island of misfit toys is appropos. I posted this when I first played again as an adult.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/440190/

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Addict, can you serve to either side of the box? This is my goal

 

[SinjinCooper]

I don't think anyone can serve harder, ELeeD serves than LeeD himself.

I've heard so much from Lee in these threads bragging about this, and so much about this stuff in general, I just had to look up the vid referenced earlier.

No leg, hip, core, shoulder, or arm. All wrist. 65 mph tops. Second serve is about 40. Asian kid is hitting about 85. Isn't in the same zip code as the purported "110+."

Here's Fed/Stan from last night. Average serve speed was just a hair over 100 mph. Average first serve speed just over 115.

Re-watch the "Pandemonium in the Park" vid and start it at about 2:30. When 100 mph Lee cranks it up, you can count, "One-one-thousand-two..." about to there before the ball arrives at the baseline. Then watch the vid with actual 100 mph serves from last night, and count with the same cadence. "One-one-th..." and you're out of time. Those 105-115 mph serves are getting there about twice as fast as these mythological park serves that are clocking past the century mark.

Which is all fine and dandy if you're into deluding yourself, but for the love of god, stop giving advice on how to serve 120. No 3.5, anywhere, is serving 120 mph. None of them. The biggest, oafiest ball clubbers among them are pancaking it around 90, and they're blowing your mind because you think your 60 mph stuff is going 100, so they MUST be Pete Sampras level.

 

[jm1980]

You're underestimating these speeds:

No leg, hip, core, shoulder, or arm. All wrist. 65 mph tops.
[..]
Re-watch the "Pandemonium in the Park" vid and start it at about 2:30. When 100 mph Lee cranks it up, you can count, "One-one-thousand-two..." about to there before the ball arrives at the baseline.

That particular serve was about 70 mph. Decent speed for a rec serve

Asian kid is hitting about 85. Isn't in the same zip code as the purported "110+."

Asian kid can hit 110. He had his serves clocked at TTW

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Addict, can you serve to either side of the box? This is my goal

lol, of course..

but admittedly kicking to a lefty bh is much less practiced than kicking to a right bh, but I can do it.

if you're gonna practice anything, resist the urge to hit flat serve all the time, focus more on your 2nd serve (spin, whether it's slice, top or kick). for every 1 flat serve you get in, you should spin 3 more in (and be specific about which third of the box you want it to land in).

 

[Simon_the_furry]

at 3.5 i had a "big" 1st serve (that never went in), dink 2nd serve.
at 3.5 i did not have a backhand
at 3.5 i never came to net
getting to 4.0 was about me learning a consistent topspin serve (ie. 2nd serve), and a backhand
I never started coming to net until ~high 4.0, and i only did that because occasionally i was invited to pay 4.5 dubs (when no one was avail)
getting to 4.5 was about me learning to place my kick serve, and develop a more consistent first serve, and revamp my fh (hawaiian -> sw) to be able to drive/attack with my fh (eg. a weapon)

i still only have 2 serves:
* topslice: used for 1st serves
* kick: used for 1st and 2nd serves
I never hit pure slice

Most stereotypical 3.5's imo are described as:
* no bh (weak at best)
* dinky 2nd serve and/or can't place it consistently
* can't attack or dictate play (worried about just "getting it back")
* no net game (or weak blocking volleys)... doubles is typically 1 up 1 back, with folks diligently covering sidelines.

@Simon_the_furry your 3.5 game is atypical imo...

ps. i still can't hit a tweener

I'm at a 4.0 level at this point, but my problem at 3.5 was that I couldn't use much placement and couldn't construct a point.
Now, my problem is not choking when it's time to finish said constructed point, as well as my footwork, which, admittedly, is bad.