What did Murray do to Federer in Shanghai that Djokovic couldn't?

[Djokovic2011]

Isn't it interesting how matchups at certain tournaments work out? For instance, Murray has beaten Federer both times they met in Shanghai, in straight sets no less, and Federer's beaten Djokovic both times they played there(also in straight sets). Conversely however, Djokovic went on to beat Murray the two times they met! Novak's obviously the better player overall so why couldn't he even come close to taking a set off Roger whereas Andy defeated him relatively easily? Do you think it's Murray's cat and mouse style of play that frustrates Fed more on the surface compared to Novak who perhaps tends to give him more rhythm? I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts and also if you can think of examples at other tournaments between three different players.

C'est tout pour le moment.

 

[Mainad]

Now you know full well what the Fedfans on here are going to say, don't you?

Obviously either: Roger wasn't feeling very well on those 2 occasions or (or probably both): who cares about an insignificant mickey-mouse event like Shanghai anyway !

 

[NBP]

Murray was better than Djokovic in 2010, regardless of year-end rank. Murray was also very confident after his US Open win in 2012, whereas Fed was relatively poor in the autumn. And as for Djokovic, it's a fast hard-court, and he ran into a red hot Fed twice. It's not that deep.

 

[Deleted member 512391]

Murray was better than Djokovic in 2010, regardless of year-end rank. Murray was also very confident after his US Open win in 2012, whereas Fed was relatively poor in the autumn. And as for Djokovic, it's a fast hard-court, and he ran into a red hot Fed twice. It's not that deep.

Plus, Murray really choked against Novak in 2012.

 

[Noleberic123]

It could be the match up. Or it could be just a coincidence.

 

[Noleberic123]

Plus, Murray really choked against Novak in 2012.

And then got a tennis lesson in 2015.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Now you know full well what the Fedfans on here are going to say, don't you?

Obviously either: Roger wasn't feeling very well on those 2 occasions or (or probably both): who cares about an insignificant mickey-mouse event like Shanghai anyway !

 

[uliks]

Roger is well past his prime ever since after 2007. He could lose to anybody those years. Murray, Djokovic, Gulbis, Sela, you named...

 

[Mainad]

Murray was better than Djokovic in 2010, regardless of year-end rank. Murray was also very confident after his US Open win in 2012, whereas Fed was relatively poor in the autumn. And as for Djokovic, it's a fast hard-court, and he ran into a red hot Fed twice. It's not that deep.

Murray had also beaten Nadal and Federer back to back in straights in Toronto earlier that year. Djokovic never even made the final of a Masters event in 2010 and, at season's end, Murray had actually more Masters titles to his name than he did (6 v 5). Seems a bit surreal to recall now!

 

[Djokovic2011]

Now you know full well what the Fedfans on here are going to say, don't you?

Obviously either: Roger wasn't feeling very well on those 2 occasions or (or probably both): who cares about an insignificant mickey-mouse event like Shanghai anyway !

In fairness mate, I've rarely seen Fed fans not give Murray credit for those wins(or the one in the 2010 Toronto final). From what I've seen, it's Andy's wins over Roger in 2008-9 that tend to be easily dismissed because RF was going for the slam record at the time so he obviously didn't care much for the Mickey Mouse events.

 

[Mainad]

In fairness mate, I've rarely seen Fed fans not give Murray credit for those wins(or the one in the 2010 Toronto final). From what I've seen, it's Andy's wins over Roger in 2008-9 that tend to be easily dismissed because RF was going for the slam record at the time so he obviously didn't care much for the Mickey Mouse events.

Lol...you and I must have been posting on different message boards, then!

 

[Djokovic2011]

Lol...you and I must have been posting on different message boards, then!

Even t_p thinks Murray was simply too good for Roger in those 2010 Masters finals. If that isn't high praise from a Fed fan, I don't know what is!

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

Plus, Murray really choked against Novak in 2012.

To be fair Novak played very well when he was on the brink of losing too.

 

[Deleted member 512391]

And then got a tennis lesson in 2015.

Yes, but that's not the point. The main assumption was that Djokovic owns Murray in Shanghai, based on their head to head (2-0), which is wrong, because Murray really should have won that Shanghai match and the picture would've looked different now. Credits for Novak for saving those match points, but I don't agree that he owns Murray there.

 

[Noleberic123]

Even t_p thinks Murray was simply too good for Roger in those 2010 Masters finals. If that isn't high praise from a Fed fan, I don't know what is!

I haven't seen t_p for a while. Why are we talking about two masters finals from 6 and a half years ago anyway

 

[InsideOut900]

2010 SF match: Federer played well and outplayed Djokovic who was also playing well,happened countless times on fast HC
2010 F match: Federer was terrible(absolute error machine) and Murray in the zone
2012 SF match: Federer was ok and Murray just better
2014 SF match: Federer played probably his best match of 2014

Bottom line,2014 Fed played way better than 2010/2012 SF's and would likely straight-set 2012 Murray.
Against 2010 Murray it would be a toss-up.

Of course Murray was better in 2010 and 2012 semis than Djokovic in 2014 semi.

 

[Noleberic123]

Yes, but that's not the point. The main assumption was that Djokovic owns Murray in Shanghai, based on their head to head (2-0), which is wrong, because Murray really should have won that Shanghai match and the picture would've looked different now. Credits for Novak for saving those match points, but I don't agree that he owns Murray there.

Who cares about who owns whom in Shanghai anyway?? Again why is this a topic of discussion.

 

[Mainad]

Even t_p thinks Murray was simply too good for Roger in those 2010 Masters finals. If that isn't high praise from a Fed fan, I don't know what is!

Who the heck was t_p? Was he drummed out of TTW by the FedSquad for daring to utter such an unthinkable blasphemy?

 

[Djokovic2011]

To be fair Novak played very well when he was on the brink of losing too.

Yeah, I watched the highlights of that final again last night and the vast majority of the match points were saved by Novak being brave and really going for his shots. IMO that was probably the best Masters match I've ever seen, just extremely high level tennis, incredible athleticism and fantastic drama throughout. I think beating that version of Murray should go down as possibly Nole's greatest ever achievement in a Masters event. Give Andy any version of Hewitt and Roddick and he'd have torn them to shreds the way he played that day and it wouldn't have been pretty.

 

[NBP]

Now you know full well what the Fedfans on here are going to say, don't you?

Obviously either: Roger wasn't feeling very well on those 2 occasions or (or probably both): who cares about an insignificant mickey-mouse event like Shanghai anyway !

Whoever says that is a fool. Fed was gunning for that year-end Number 1 in 2012, so that Murray match was a big one, no two ways about it.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Who the heck was t_p? Was he drummed out of TTW by the FedSquad for daring to utter such an unthinkable blasphemy?

t_p = tennis_ pro.

 

[Mainad]

t_p = tennis_ pro.

Oh right. Wow, he's changed his tune then! Not so long ago I couldn't get him to give Murray ANY credit for ANY of his wins over Federer!!!

 

[mike danny]

Who the heck was t_p? Was he drummed out of TTW by the FedSquad for daring to utter such an unthinkable blasphemy?

tennis_pro

And for the record Murray was brilliant in those masters finals in which he beat Roger in 2010. In Shanghai for instance Roger was playing so well before the final, that I had never really predicted that sort of outcome in the final

 

[Djokovic2011]

Yes, but that's not the point. The main assumption was that Djokovic owns Murray in Shanghai, based on their head to head (2-0), which is wrong, because Murray really should have won that Shanghai match and the picture would've looked different now. Credits for Novak for saving those match points, but I don't agree that he owns Murray there.

I never meant to imply that he owns Murray there, just that he won both matches they played.

 

[mike danny]

Oh right. Wow, he's changed his tune then! Not so long ago I couldn't get him to give Murray ANY credit for ANY of his wins over Federer!!!

Masters Cup 2008, Madrid 2008, Toronto 2010 and Shanghai 2010 were Murray's most impressive victories IMO.

 

[Gazelle]

Now you know full well what the Fedfans on here are going to say, don't you?

Obviously either: Roger wasn't feeling very well on those 2 occasions or (or probably both): who cares about an insignificant mickey-mouse event like Shanghai anyway !

I was going to say 'small sample size' but your first argument is better

 

[Deleted member 512391]

I never meant to imply that he owns Murray there, just that he won both matches they played.

Okay, my bad, but even if we exclude the word "owning", the point is the same. Anyway, InsideOut900 gave a good explanation to your question, imo.

 

[Emperor of Belgrade]

Murray is quite close to Djokovic's level if not as good as him on faster hard courts.

Federer played better against Djokovic.

That probably explains it.

 

[metsman]

Masters Cup 2008, Madrid 2008, Toronto 2010 and Shanghai 2010 were Murray's most impressive victories IMO.

masters cup 08 wasn't really impressive. Fed played one of the worst sets I've ever seen on a faster court in the 2nd and still almost came back in that set. His back was injured for two sets and he still led 4-3 30-0 in the 3rd set. The other 3 I fully agree with

To answer the question...Fed simply played much better against Djokovic than he did against Murray. Why that deserves a thread, I have no idea

 

[Djokovic2011]

Murray is quite close to Djokovic's level if not as good as him on faster hard courts.

Federer played better against Djokovic.

That probably explains it.

I do feel that Federer raises his game more when he plays Djokovic. In 2014 especially he really got up for playing Novak that year, like every match was a matter of life and death to him.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

Yeah, I watched the highlights of that final again last night and the vast majority of the match points were saved by Novak being brave and really going for his shots. IMO that was probably the best Masters match I've ever seen, just extremely high level tennis, incredible athleticism and fantastic drama throughout. I think beating that version of Murray should go down as possibly Nole's greatest ever achievement in a Masters event. Give Andy any version of Hewitt and Roddick and he'd have torn them to shreds the way he played that day and it wouldn't have been pretty.

I watched that match live and I remember he was kind of annoying with that crazy defense, similar to what happened in Doha a few days ago. It was probably even worse back then since Andy won the last two meetings at the Olympics and the US Open so he was a bit of a thorn in the eye at that point.

 

[metsman]

Yeah, I watched the highlights of that final again last night and the vast majority of the match points were saved by Novak being brave and really going for his shots. IMO that was probably the best Masters match I've ever seen, just extremely high level tennis, incredible athleticism and fantastic drama throughout. I think beating that version of Murray should go down as possibly Nole's greatest ever achievement in a Masters event. Give Andy any version of Hewitt and Roddick and he'd have torn them to shreds the way he played that day and it wouldn't have been pretty.

highlights

Exhibit #4599205839 for this passive aggressive clown lol

 

[Noleberic123]

I do feel that Federer raises his game more when he plays Djokovic. In 2014 especially he really got up for playing Novak that year, like every match was a matter of life and death to him.

Wimbledon 2015 says otherwise

 

[Noleberic123]

I watched that match live and I remember he was kind of annoying with that crazy defense, similar to what happened in Doha a few days ago. It was probably even worse back then since Andy won the last two meetings at the Olympics and the US Open so he was a bit of a thorn in the eye at that point.

I almost smashed the TV a few days ago because of his annoying defense.

 

[Noleberic123]

I do feel that Federer raises his game more when he plays Djokovic. In 2014 especially he really got up for playing Novak that year, like every match was a matter of life and death to him.

Also Djokovic won the important match that year. Which was at wimbledon.

 

[mike danny]

masters cup 08 wasn't really impressive. Fed played one of the worst sets I've ever seen on a faster court in the 2nd and still almost came back in that set. His back was injured for two sets and he still led 4-3 30-0 in the 3rd set. The other 3 I fully agree with

To answer the question...Fed simply played much better against Djokovic than he did against Murray. Why that deserves a thread, I have no idea

Fed still wasn't playing badly that match. He really wanted to beat Murray. Both of them wanted to beat each other badly that match.

 

[mike danny]

Also Djokovic won the important match that year. Which was at wimbledon.

And would have won the WTF final as well.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Wimbledon 2015 says otherwise

I was mostly referring to the best of 3 set matches they played and even the '14 Wimbledon final he made Novak fight to the bitter end for his victory.

 

[Noleberic123]

And would have won the WTF final as well.

Most likely.

 

[Noleberic123]

I was mostly referring to the best of 3 set matches they played and even the '14 Wimbledon final he made Novak fight to the bitter end for his victory.

To be fair the match should have ended in 4.

 

[metsman]

Fed still wasn't playing badly that match. He really wanted to beat Murray. Both of them wanted to beat each other badly that match.

he was pretty bad. Really bad in fact given his prime standards on a quicker court. Murray kept letting him back into the match and was on the brink of losing. It was really not impressive. He was really hampered the last 2 sets with serve and movement but hung in there, probably because he didn't want to lose to Murray and he had to win to qualify for the semis. Murray on the other hand fought tooth and nail and stupidly cost himself a shot at winning that tournament!

08 Madrid, very good win, 10 Toronto/Shanghai as well although Fed did not play as well in those finals.

 

[Djokovic2011]

To be fair the match should have ended in 4.

That's true.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

I almost smashed the TV a few days ago because of his annoying defense.

Funny how we are totally fine when our guy occasionally does the annoying defense.

 

[mike danny]

he was pretty bad. Really bad in fact given his prime standards on a quicker court. Murray kept letting him back into the match and was on the brink of losing. It was really not impressive. He was really hampered the last 2 sets with serve and movement but hung in there, probably because he didn't want to lose to Murray and he had to win to qualify for the semis. Murray on the other hand fought tooth and nail and stupidly cost himself a shot at winning that tournament!

08 Madrid, very good win, 10 Toronto/Shanghai as well although Fed did not play as well in those finals.

I think Murray wanted to establish some sort of mental edge on Federer, which is why he felt that he needed to win every match against Roger. Of course, in the majors that backfired.

 

[mike danny]

To be fair the match should have ended in 4.

And the 2015 final really in straights.

 

[Noleberic123]

And the 2015 final really in straights.

Maybe. But don't forget Federer had SPs in the first set. I think a 4 set win was a fair result.

 

[Noleberic123]

Funny how we are totally fine when our guy occasionally does the annoying defense.

Ahahaha I know.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

Plus, Murray really choked against Novak in 2012.

That was a crazy match to watch, with Murray really dominating for a set and 3/4ths. I still remember this insane point with Murray serving for the title at 30-0, and it like completely turned the tide:

 

[NatF]

Yeah, I watched the highlights of that final again last night and the vast majority of the match points were saved by Novak being brave and really going for his shots. IMO that was probably the best Masters match I've ever seen, just extremely high level tennis, incredible athleticism and fantastic drama throughout. I think beating that version of Murray should go down as possibly Nole's greatest ever achievement in a Masters event. Give Andy any version of Hewitt and Roddick and he'd have torn them to shreds the way he played that day and it wouldn't have been pretty.

No ulterior motives right mate? You're full of **** man Again watching the highlights over and over isn't a substitute for watching the full match warts and all.

 

[Djokovic2011]

No ulterior motives right mate? You're full of **** man Again watching the highlights over and over isn't a substitute for watching the full match warts and all.

Got a feeling I'd come to the same conclusion if I watched the full match. I understand how much you love Hewitt and Roddick mate but admitting that Murray is the better HC player(and indeed better overall) doesn't make you any less a fan.