Djokovic has never been further ahead of the field

Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
I can wrap my head around Djokovic continuing to win it all. He is a tremendous player with single-minded focus and dedication.

What I can’t wrap my head around is how, at age 36, he’s somehow moved further ahead of the field than he has ever been.

2023:

55-6
3 Slams
83/84 sets won in Slams
Only 10 total sets dropped in Slams total, including 3 in the Wimby final.
Only 5 sets dropped across the 3 Slams he won
All Slam final wins in straight sets
35-2 on HC
17-4 vs top 10 (losses are Med in Dubai, Rune in Rome, Carlos at Wimby, Sinner in RR, only one loss of actual consequence)
YEC win, dropping a total of 11 games in the knockout rounds
YE #1 by 2390 points

Yes, we’re witnessing the most dominant, most never-in-doubt, most head-and-shoulders that Novak has ever been above the field. There were similarly dominant years, in his career, obviously 2011, 2015, and 2021, but this one takes the cake.

Even in 2015, he had big losses and tough matches along the way - Wawrinka and Murray proving a difficult challenge in AO/RG, taking a combined 8 sets from him, Federer and Murray beating him multiple times in Bo3, Kevin Anderson going up 2-0 at Wimbledon, etc. While Novak won many more matches in ‘15, he was also pushed more when it counted.

In 2021, Zverev took big titles from him in the Olympics and YEC, and Novak struggled to play cleanly at times, going 5 with Fritz, Musetti, Tsitsipas, Zverev in Bo5. His win % was nearly identical, but the biggest battles he had even then - Medvedev, Zverev, and Tsitsipas - have now all been completely solved. Novak straight setted both Tsitsipas and Medvedev in Slam finals in 2023.

How and why is this happening?
 
L

Lauren_Girl'

Hall of Fame
You want the right answer or TTW's? I'll give both.

Correct answer, and what the majority of true tennis fans finally see now : he is the undisputed Goat. He can overcome any challenge from any player of any age on any surface.

TTW : weakest era ever, full of weak era mugs. Amen.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Kralingen said:
I can wrap my head around Djokovic continuing to win it all. He is a tremendous player with single-minded focus and dedication.

What I can’t wrap my head around is how, at age 36, he’s somehow moved further ahead of the field than he has ever been.

2023:

55-6
3 Slams
83/84 sets won in Slams
Only 10 total sets dropped in Slams total, including 3 in the Wimby final.
Only 5 sets dropped across the 3 Slams he won
All Slam final wins in straight sets
35-2 on HC
17-4 vs top 10 (losses are Med in Dubai, Rune in Rome, Carlos at Wimby, Sinner in RR, only one loss of actual consequence)
YEC win, dropping a total of 11 games in the knockout rounds
YE #1 by 2390 points

Yes, we’re witnessing the most dominant, most never-in-doubt, most head-and-shoulders that Novak has ever been above the field. There were similarly dominant years, in his career, obviously 2011, 2015, and 2021, but this one takes the cake.

Even in 2015, he had big losses and tough matches along the way - Wawrinka and Murray proving a difficult challenge in AO/RG, taking a combined 8 sets from him, Federer and Murray beating him multiple times in Bo3, Kevin Anderson going up 2-0 at Wimbledon, etc. While Novak won many more matches in ‘15, he was also pushed more when it counted.

In 2021, Zverev took big titles from him in the Olympics and YEC, and Novak struggled to play cleanly at times, going 5 with Fritz, Musetti, Tsitsipas, Zverev in Bo5. His win % was nearly identical, but the biggest battles he had even then - Medvedev, Zverev, and Tsitsipas - have now all been completely solved. Novak straight setted both Tsitsipas and Medvedev in Slam finals in 2023.

How and why is this happening?
Click to expand...
What is different is the age of his prime rivals.

In 2011 his rivals were Roger/Rafa/Murray, all above 24.
In 2015 Roger Murray Stan, all above 28
In 2022 tbh its Medvedev Alcaraz and then a bunch of other youngsters under age 22. Yes they didn't beat him in most imp matches but they got much better in every match. So I will say almost all under 23 (sinner rune Alcaraz).

The kids are improving at massive speed, although not enough for TTW. Like Raz literally won 2 slams before age 21 but he is a loser here. And next year he will be better, Sinner will definitely be better, and Ruen will definitely be better. So While Nole is ahead of the field, its looking great for the new gen.
 
Djokodalerer31

Djokodalerer31

Hall of Fame
tennis_pro said:
Yea but the field sucks, so it really isn't much of an accomplishment.
Click to expand...

Yes, a big deal you only have to win 27 out of 28 matches competing against the ones, that wants your blood everytime and have to watch out not to lose one's focus (ahem ahem Wimbledon final...), a big freaking deal! Everyone can do that in the tour at the expanse of Novak, right? Oh wait...
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1

Djokovic_is_the_best#1

Bionic Poster
Djokodalerer31 said:
Why does it matter if someone gets good by 36 instead of by 22 or 23 or 24 or whatever? I mean in the end of the day it leads to the same results, then why the heck does it matter? LOL
Click to expand...
He has also dominated like this in 2011, 2015, 2021 and this year. Then had strong seasons in a few other years too. TTW sounding like he just came out of nowhere! lol
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
He was further ahead of the field in 2015 because he was the best on every surface and beating him anywhere was a shock. It was a true shock to the tennis world that he lost the 2015 RG final. He went into that RG match against Nadal as the favorite because he was so dominant and Nadal was off his game. I can't think of any other time someone was the favorite against Nadal at RG (except 2020 when they all got it completely wrong because of the conditions).

This year, Djokovic struggled in clay season (really wasn't a good clay season for his standards) and took multiple losses. In 2015, he took one loss which was a big one. Still, after that loss he went 41-3 winning 2 Slams, ATP finals, 2 Masters and making two more Masters finals. Then he dominated the 1st half of 2016, going 44-3 until the end of RG, winning 2 Slams and 3 Masters. He destroyed the game during that time.
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
He was further ahead of the field in 2015 because he was the best on every surface and beating him anywhere was a shock. It was a true shock to the tennis world that he lost the 2015 RG final. He went into that RG match against Nadal as the favorite because he was so dominant and Nadal was off his game. I can't think of any other time someone was the favorite against Nadal at RG (except 2020 when they all got it completely wrong because of the conditions).

This year, Djokovic struggled in clay season (really wasn't a good clay season for his standards) and took multiple losses. In 2015, he took one loss which was a big one. Still, after that loss he went 41-3 winning 2 Slams, ATP finals, 2 Masters and making two more Masters finals. Then he dominated the 1st half of 2016, going 44-3 until the end of RG.
Click to expand...
Will quote my OP:

Even in 2015, he had big losses and tough matches along the way - Wawrinka and Murray proving a difficult challenge in AO/RG, taking a combined 8 sets from him, Federer and Murray beating him multiple times in Bo3, Kevin Anderson going up 2-0 at Wimbledon, etc. While Novak won many more matches in ‘15, he was also pushed more when it counted.
Click to expand...

Djokovic dropped a combined 14 sets in 2015 Slams and that included multiple 5 setters where he was actually in danger (Wawrinka AO, Murray RG, especially Anderson WB). The closest anyone got to him this year was Djere in a sleepy 3R match where he dominated once he woke up in the 3rd set.
 
J

James_Bolt

Rookie
Djokodalerer31 said:
Why does it matter if someone gets good by 36 instead of by 22 or 23 or 24 or whatever? I mean in the end of the day it leads to the same results, then why the heck does it matter? LOL
Click to expand...
Some people want to decide when it's time to peak, for how long the peak should last, when it's time to decline.
If a player doesn't follow that preconceived pattern, then there is something wrong.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
How is he better than 10 years ago.

Picking and choosing stuff is for agendas. Nole is not better than his peak which was between 2015/2016.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
vulture-looking.gif
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Will quote my OP:



Djokovic dropped a combined 14 sets in 2015 Slams and that included multiple 5 setters where he was actually in danger (Wawrinka AO, Murray RG, especially Anderson WB). The closest anyone got to him this year was Djere in a sleepy 3R match where he dominated once he woke up in the 3rd set.
Click to expand...
Just because he was dropping more sets doesn't mean he wasn't farther ahead of the field. A lot of the time, he played down to the level of the opponent, only raising his level when it was necessary. From Wimbledon 2015 to RG 2016, he went 85-6 which blows that 55-6 from this year completely out of the water. Fall 2014 to mid 2016 Djokovic was on a different level as far as how far ahead he was of the field.
 
Razer

Razer

Legend
Djokodalerer31 said:
Why does it matter if someone gets good by 36 instead of by 22 or 23 or 24 or whatever? I mean in the end of the day it leads to the same results, then why the heck does it matter? LOL
Click to expand...

It matters because biology is same for everyone

Ask Justin Gatlin, he would tell you that his top time should have been somewhere in his 9.6x like his lesser accomplished rival like Tyson Gay or someone like Asafa Powell but it is not, the reason he is missed out on his peak years, so no amount of hard work done in the future can compensate for lost youth.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
Just because he was dropping more sets doesn't mean he wasn't farther ahead of the field. A lot of the time, he played down to the level of the opponent, only raising his level when it was necessary. From Wimbledon 2015 to RG 2016, he went 85-6 which blows that 55-6 from this year completely out of the water. Fall 2014 to mid 2016 Djokovic was on a different level as far as how far ahead he was of the field.
Click to expand...
Are you in the camp that Djokovic did this on purpose? It's a interesting take tbh it's been repeated by Djok fans a few times in the last week that he could have play way better but choose not to save energy.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
RS said:
Are you in the camp that Djokovic did this on purpose? It's a interesting take tbh it's been repeated by Djok fans a few times in the last week.
Click to expand...
It's the reason why he's never won a Slam without dropping a set. I don't think he does it on purpose but subconsciously, sometimes losing focus or urgency until he realizes it's time to raise his game or refocus.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
He was further ahead of the field in 2015 because he was the best on every surface and beating him anywhere was a shock. It was a true shock to the tennis world that he lost the 2015 RG final. He went into that RG match against Nadal as the favorite because he was so dominant and Nadal was off his game. I can't think of any other time someone was the favorite against Nadal at RG (except 2020 when they all got it completely wrong because of the conditions).

This year, Djokovic struggled in clay season (really wasn't a good clay season for his standards) and took multiple losses. In 2015, he took one loss which was a big one. Still, after that loss he went 41-3 winning 2 Slams, ATP finals, 2 Masters and making two more Masters finals. Then he dominated the 1st half of 2016, going 44-3 until the end of RG, winning 2 Slams and 3 Masters. He destroyed the game during that time.
Click to expand...
Pretty much any version of Djokovic would have beaten 2015 Nadal in RG. Maybe even his 2006 version, definitely any version starting from 2007.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
Just because he was dropping more sets doesn't mean he wasn't farther ahead of the field. A lot of the time, he played down to the level of the opponent, only raising his level when it was necessary. From Wimbledon 2015 to RG 2016, he went 85-6 which blows that 55-6 from this year completely out of the water. Fall 2014 to mid 2016 Djokovic was on a different level as far as how far ahead he was of the field.
Click to expand...
Also again picking and choosing what to focus on.

How many sets he lost this year. Was it 0? He lost many this year as well as in 2015.

But then he was also winning everything else in 2015, ATP finals, masters on clay, being undefeated on masters 1000 before finals. But if op wants to only choose the pick, check 2015 Wimbledon to 2016 RG.

How many sets did he lose? He won 2016 AO losing only 3 sets, RG only 2, USO 15 only 1 and Wimbledon 15 only 5. Only 11 sets.
 
weakera

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
There are of course only two possibilities, A- that Djokovic is stronger than ever before, or B- that the field is weaker than ever before, or some combination of the two. There are no other possibilities, this is self-evident.

Personally I find that Djokovic is certainly not stronger than ever before. Not only does his game being better than ever not pass the eye test, this would also run contrary to everything we have ever seen in sports history, witnessing an athlete reach his apex at age 36-37. Short of Barry Bonds, when have we seen that happen? There is a reason.

With that being said, I do think Djokovic plays at a very high level for his age. Not better than ever or even close to it, but still at shall we say a 7.5/10 version of himself, if we're calling 2011/2015 his 10/10. That, *combined with* a field that has not only been depleted of Djokovic-level talent (no more Nadal or Federer, or even Murray or Wawrinka), but perhaps more critically, depleted of players who have the conviction, courage and mental strength to face down Djokovic in big matches, has led to what we are seeing today. And I see no reason why Djokovic cannot win a CYGS in 2024.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Kralingen said:
I can wrap my head around Djokovic continuing to win it all. He is a tremendous player with single-minded focus and dedication.

What I can’t wrap my head around is how, at age 36, he’s somehow moved further ahead of the field than he has ever been.

2023:

55-6
3 Slams
83/84 sets won in Slams
Only 10 total sets dropped in Slams total, including 3 in the Wimby final.
Only 5 sets dropped across the 3 Slams he won
All Slam final wins in straight sets
35-2 on HC
17-4 vs top 10 (losses are Med in Dubai, Rune in Rome, Carlos at Wimby, Sinner in RR, only one loss of actual consequence)
YEC win, dropping a total of 11 games in the knockout rounds
YE #1 by 2390 points

Yes, we’re witnessing the most dominant, most never-in-doubt, most head-and-shoulders that Novak has ever been above the field. There were similarly dominant years, in his career, obviously 2011, 2015, and 2021, but this one takes the cake.

Even in 2015, he had big losses and tough matches along the way - Wawrinka and Murray proving a difficult challenge in AO/RG, taking a combined 8 sets from him, Federer and Murray beating him multiple times in Bo3, Kevin Anderson going up 2-0 at Wimbledon, etc. While Novak won many more matches in ‘15, he was also pushed more when it counted.

In 2021, Zverev took big titles from him in the Olympics and YEC, and Novak struggled to play cleanly at times, going 5 with Fritz, Musetti, Tsitsipas, Zverev in Bo5. His win % was nearly identical, but the biggest battles he had even then - Medvedev, Zverev, and Tsitsipas - have now all been completely solved. Novak straight setted both Tsitsipas and Medvedev in Slam finals in 2023.

How and why is this happening?
Click to expand...
Technology is not evenly distributed. The rich get richer.

Novak is the last of the heavyweight generation beating up on lightweights.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Neptune said:
So Rafa is a mug whenever he loses?
Click to expand...
If a player hits just 3 forehand winners during the match and gets tired after an hour and a half then he is in terrible form. This applies not just to Nadal. For someone like Ruud that would also be considered a horrible performance.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic in 2023 lost sets

1 in AO
1 in RG
2 in USO
4 in Wimby

8 sets. Lost 1 match in these 8 sets
In 2015 Wimby to 2016 RG he lost 11 sets but didn't matter, some servebot taking 2 sets from him didn't bother him and he lost no match.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
nachiket nolefam said:
Also again picking and choosing what to focus on.

How many sets he lost this year. Was it 0? He lost many this year as well as in 2015.

But then he was also winning everything else in 2015, ATP finals, masters on clay, being undefeated on masters 1000 before finals. But if op wants to only choose the pick, check 2015 Wimbledon to 2016 RG.

How many sets did he lose? He won 2016 AO losing only 3 sets, RG only 2, USO 15 only 1 and Wimbledon 15 only 5. Only 11 sets.
Click to expand...
In 2015, he wanted it all. Everything. He still wants to win now but Slams are what really matters. He'll skip a Shanghai or Canada now when he wouldn't in 2015. People could barely beat him back then and they usually did in lesser matches like Doha, Dubai or a RR match. I think he lost more in USO 2015 but point taken.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Razer said:
@Kralingen - Some months back you told me that Alcaraz will bring down Nole and make him look like an old man, you said you have too much respect for Alcaraz's talent to think this would not happen soon. So what has changed now ?
Click to expand...
Everything. Raz is a mug now..

Just 1 month back I showed Rafa suffered exactly the same between 2006 RG to 2007 IW. He was of exactly same age.

So if Rafa can have slump post early success, so can Carlos but no patience.
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
Just because he was dropping more sets doesn't mean he wasn't farther ahead of the field. A lot of the time, he played down to the level of the opponent, only raising his level when it was necessary.
Click to expand...
Why would he do that? What benefit does he get from going down 0-2 to Anderson or needlessly playing badly for stretches in multiple Slam SFs and putting a grueling 5 setter on his legs?
NoleFam said:
From Wimbledon 2015 to RG 2016, he went 85-6 which blows that 55-6 from this year completely out of the water. Fall 2014 to mid 2016 Djokovic was on a different level as far as how far ahead he was of the field.
Click to expand...
Sure in terms of overall winning. When it actually mattered tho he was pushed much more in Slams.
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Razer said:
@Kralingen - Some months back you told me that Alcaraz will bring down Nole and make him look like an old man, you said you have too much respect for Alcaraz's talent to think this would not happen soon. So what has changed now ?
Click to expand...
Well, Alcaraz of the spring and summer looked awesome and obviously beat Nole at Wimby

Post Wimbledon, it is clear he was not up to the task, and that isn’t even anything to do with Novak, he’s losing to random bums left and right.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Kralingen said:
Well, Alcaraz of the spring and summer looked awesome and obviously won Wimby

Post Wimbledon, it is clear he was not up to the task, and that isn’t even anything to do with Novak, he’s losing to random bums left and right.
Click to expand...
So did Nadal at his age.

So did Nole at his age.

Roger was a mug at the same age.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
nachiket nolefam said:
Everything. Raz is a mug now..

Just 1 month back I showed Rafa suffered exactly the same between 2006 RG to 2007 IW. He was of exactly same age.

So if Rafa can have slump post early success, so can Carlos but no patience.
Click to expand...
Nadal's competition back then was one 36 years old and nobody else?
 
weakera

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
Indigo said:
Being imprisoned woke up beast in him. He wanted revenge. He wants his opponents to knee in front of him begging for forgiveness and mercy. He wants all the records in history. He is the impaler, punisher, mummy, robot and terminator in one.
Click to expand...

Do you seriously believe that had that incident not occurred, he wouldn't have had the same results over the last two seasons?
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
StrongRule said:
Nadal's competition back then was one 36 years old and nobody else?
Click to expand...
Nadal being an absolute mug, your favorite same Nadal, he lost to other mugs at that age.

Guys ranked over 100.

Let me find the thread for you just for your enjoyment. Go through it.
 
M

Midaso240

Legend
You must remember last year? Nadal had a winning streak all the way to Indian Wells, won 2 slams, all while being physically compromised. Next year, he'll go into RG as the 3rd favourite (according to odds) without even playing for a year. The big 3 are just a class above, but Djokovic has the big advantage of not having a big physical decline.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Why would he do that? What benefit does he get from going down 0-2 to Anderson or needlessly playing badly for stretches in multiple Slam SFs and putting a grueling 5 setter on his legs?

Sure in terms of overall winning. When it actually mattered tho he was pushed much more in Slams.
Click to expand...
That's not one of the matches I'm talking about. Anderson was in the zone. Anybody would have struggled with him on Court 1 too, where it's also a bit faster. However, he did play down to the level of his opponents in matches like Almagro in Rome, or Simon in AO, or other guys in AO 2016 that he should have put away much easier. We know this because his game went to an entirely different level in that Rome final and that AO SF against Federer. It was like 2 different players because he sensed the urgency of a big match and tougher opponent.
 
pirhaksar

pirhaksar

Professional
NoleFam said:
Just because he was dropping more sets doesn't mean he wasn't farther ahead of the field. A lot of the time, he played down to the level of the opponent, only raising his level when it was necessary. From Wimbledon 2015 to RG 2016, he went 85-6 which blows that 55-6 from this year completely out of the water. Fall 2014 to mid 2016 Djokovic was on a different level as far as how far ahead he was of the field.
Click to expand...
lol don’t bother dude
 
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