mike danny
Bionic Poster
Kind of hard to walk with the mentality that you can win when you're not good enough.
Djokovic has never been further ahead of the field
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
I'll believe he's a major problem once Djokovic doesn't win 3 slams in a year anymore.
GoatNo1
Professional
2023 he was baned from IW och miami.
2022 he wos stolen a YE#1 by politicians.
Noles YE#2 behind of #2 by points:
2013: 770
2016: 630
2019: 840
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Whenever Djokovic has played more aggressively, he has had dominant seasons like in 2011, 2015-16 and now in 2023. This year he decided to hit his FH about 7-10 mph faster than is typical at the AO to keep points short after his hamstring injury, realized he can be dominant that way and kept it up most of the year.
For some reason, he decided to play more conservatively after 2011 and wasn’t as dominant until Becker came along and he played more aggressively in late 2014-1H2016. Then he got injured and while he has been winning a lot since his elbow surgery in 2018 including a very special 2021, he wasn’t bludgeoning his opponents like he did this year.
Hope he decides to keep up his aggressiveness as that is his extra special magic sauce. When he keeps points short including serving big, his age doesn’t matter as much.
For some reason, he decided to play more conservatively after 2011 and wasn’t as dominant until Becker came along and he played more aggressively in late 2014-1H2016. Then he got injured and while he has been winning a lot since his elbow surgery in 2018 including a very special 2021, he wasn’t bludgeoning his opponents like he did this year.
Hope he decides to keep up his aggressiveness as that is his extra special magic sauce. When he keeps points short including serving big, his age doesn’t matter as much.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Firstly, Joker has kept himself in incredible shape so he should be commended for his dedication towards his craft. Guys like Borg and Lendl set the standards as far as preparation goes and I think even among the Big 3 Joker has taken it to a new level. The dude let a square of chocolate melt on his tongue and that’s the last tasty thing he’s had in over a decade. He’s had nothing but berries and twigs since.
Secondly there’s the elephant in the room that is the opposition or in this field’s case lack thereof. We’ve had 3 successive generations who have produced a single ATG level talent in 17 years (more on him later). The #LostGen is appropriately named given that an entire generation produced a single 1x schlem winner who’s an absolute shadow of himself post injury R.I.P. Timmy’s wrist.
The following generation hasn’t faired much better (though they have done better in the big BO3 events courtesy of the Big 3 cutting down their schedules to focus on the schlems). The Mad Lad, Zedrot, Citybus, and Bweh have either all regressed or plateaued this year. Citybus has taken several steps back since peaking in 2021 and Zedrot hasn’t been the same since his ankle injury last year (not that he made a big impact at the schlems to begin with).
The Mad Lad had a great first half of the season in non-schlem events, but he’s added virtually nothing to his game since his breakout year in 2019. Mentally he hasn’t been the same since RAFA took his soul in the 2022 AO F. His ROS position has become an absolute liability against the top players and he has not made any adjustments to solve this issue. Joker, Tiny Carl, and the Sinner have all more or less completely figured him out now. Bweh is a perennial punching bag for everyone in the top 10. He’s a 500 vulture filler who can occasionally make a schlem QF but can go no further than that.
Now we’ve arrived at the #DiamondGen consisting of: the Sinner, Tiny Carl, and the Danish Brat. The Sinner finally won his first MS1000 of his career this year, granted his draw had to fall apart to laughable proportions. He looked great in the YEC up until the F, but even if he won there I wouldn’t be convinced it would translate into schlem success because that has been the case for all these young players who won the YEC sans Mad Lad who played probably the worst Joker in any GS F. Speaking of the schlems, the Sinner like the Mad Lad also plateaued (or worse took a small step backwards) at the schlems. His serve has improved a lot this year, but given his meek performance in the YEC F he still lacks the mental toughness to be a factor in the BO5 format.
The Danish Brat was…there I guess. I think he won a title compared to 3 last year. His schlem results did improve replicating his RG results from last year and making the Wimby QF this year. But as of right now his serve isn’t good enough and his FH is an absolute liability. Combine that with his lack of stamina and he’s not winning a schlem next year. The talent and mentality is there since he’s the only one yet to wet himself whenever he plays Joker.
Lastly, we have Tiny Carl who’s by far the toughest challenger the current tour has to offer. While he has improved this year compared to his very successful 2022 campaign, it wasn’t this massive jump that many people (myself included) were expecting. Like PETE said, any year you win a slam is a success, but it definitely wasn’t as much of a success as it could have/should have been. While his serve has improved and he adjusted to grass incredibly well, he’s now had back to back years where his body and form have fallen off a cliff post-2-1 Open, buds. This year he fell off even earlier after he won Wimby. Now it was amazing that he won Queens and Wimby back to back after having one of the worst physical/mental collapses in recent memory. But frankly he did benefit from a Joker who was incredibly mediocre to straight up bad in large chunks of the match. He still needs to work on his serve since he has to work far too hard to hold against the best returners in the world. He generates way too many BPs to not break serve as often as he should. Probably his two biggest concerns going into the offseason are working on his shot selection and shot tolerance. Physically this is probably the best he’ll ever be. I don’t see him getting any faster/improving his movement beyond where it’s at now. Any physical improvement is going to come down to stamina which while he is in good shape he did cramp up not once, not twice, but thrice in important matches this year they ultimately cost him 3 big titles.
Secondly there’s the elephant in the room that is the opposition or in this field’s case lack thereof. We’ve had 3 successive generations who have produced a single ATG level talent in 17 years (more on him later). The #LostGen is appropriately named given that an entire generation produced a single 1x schlem winner who’s an absolute shadow of himself post injury R.I.P. Timmy’s wrist.
The following generation hasn’t faired much better (though they have done better in the big BO3 events courtesy of the Big 3 cutting down their schedules to focus on the schlems). The Mad Lad, Zedrot, Citybus, and Bweh have either all regressed or plateaued this year. Citybus has taken several steps back since peaking in 2021 and Zedrot hasn’t been the same since his ankle injury last year (not that he made a big impact at the schlems to begin with).
The Mad Lad had a great first half of the season in non-schlem events, but he’s added virtually nothing to his game since his breakout year in 2019. Mentally he hasn’t been the same since RAFA took his soul in the 2022 AO F. His ROS position has become an absolute liability against the top players and he has not made any adjustments to solve this issue. Joker, Tiny Carl, and the Sinner have all more or less completely figured him out now. Bweh is a perennial punching bag for everyone in the top 10. He’s a 500 vulture filler who can occasionally make a schlem QF but can go no further than that.
Now we’ve arrived at the #DiamondGen consisting of: the Sinner, Tiny Carl, and the Danish Brat. The Sinner finally won his first MS1000 of his career this year, granted his draw had to fall apart to laughable proportions. He looked great in the YEC up until the F, but even if he won there I wouldn’t be convinced it would translate into schlem success because that has been the case for all these young players who won the YEC sans Mad Lad who played probably the worst Joker in any GS F. Speaking of the schlems, the Sinner like the Mad Lad also plateaued (or worse took a small step backwards) at the schlems. His serve has improved a lot this year, but given his meek performance in the YEC F he still lacks the mental toughness to be a factor in the BO5 format.
The Danish Brat was…there I guess. I think he won a title compared to 3 last year. His schlem results did improve replicating his RG results from last year and making the Wimby QF this year. But as of right now his serve isn’t good enough and his FH is an absolute liability. Combine that with his lack of stamina and he’s not winning a schlem next year. The talent and mentality is there since he’s the only one yet to wet himself whenever he plays Joker.
Lastly, we have Tiny Carl who’s by far the toughest challenger the current tour has to offer. While he has improved this year compared to his very successful 2022 campaign, it wasn’t this massive jump that many people (myself included) were expecting. Like PETE said, any year you win a slam is a success, but it definitely wasn’t as much of a success as it could have/should have been. While his serve has improved and he adjusted to grass incredibly well, he’s now had back to back years where his body and form have fallen off a cliff post-2-1 Open, buds. This year he fell off even earlier after he won Wimby. Now it was amazing that he won Queens and Wimby back to back after having one of the worst physical/mental collapses in recent memory. But frankly he did benefit from a Joker who was incredibly mediocre to straight up bad in large chunks of the match. He still needs to work on his serve since he has to work far too hard to hold against the best returners in the world. He generates way too many BPs to not break serve as often as he should. Probably his two biggest concerns going into the offseason are working on his shot selection and shot tolerance. Physically this is probably the best he’ll ever be. I don’t see him getting any faster/improving his movement beyond where it’s at now. Any physical improvement is going to come down to stamina which while he is in good shape he did cramp up not once, not twice, but thrice in important matches this year they ultimately cost him 3 big titles.
Azure
G.O.A.T.
Very comprehensive
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Lauren_Girl'
Hall of Fame
Let's not pretend the other recent years were different... If it weren't for covid I believe 2020 and 2022 would've been simililar years.
In 2020 he was scary good. His record was 20/0 before they shut everything down. He beat all the best players of the moment... Shapovalov, Medvedev, Nadal, Raonic, Federer, Thiem, Khachanov, Monfils, Tstisipas. Then no tennis between March and August. He came back and won Rome and Cincinnati. Only a fraudulent DQ, peak Nadal from RG and a stupid Wimbledon director could stop him. In fact in October he was still undefeated when Nadal beat him in RG. 2020 could've been similar to 2021 and 2023 if not for that damn virus.
And in 2022 he only finished 180 points behind Alcaraz if we count Wimbledon points. 180 points knowing he missed 2 Slams and 4 Masters (total of 8,000 points). Imagine the gap there would've been between Djokovic and the field if he'd been allowed to play the 2 Slams and some of the american Masters.
No covid and no vaccine crap, I think he wins 2 or 3 Slams in 2020 and 2 or 3 Slams in 2022. And would be close to 500 weeks at No1.
Azure
G.O.A.T.
Can’t disagree with this. If 2020 had been a normal year, we are looking at more weeks for Djokovic.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
This is true. As well as that he still had incredible seasons in 2016, 2018 and 2019 too. As well as being pretty impressive in 2012-2014 and 2008 even though he just got 1 slam each year.
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wang07
Semi-Pro
He is allowed to enjoy himself, that's the thing. I don't even blame Alcaraz or Sinner too much, the real problem is with that 14 year long gap between Sinner and Djokovic, nobody who was born between them is worth mentioning. Every single player born in the 90s is unremarkable and forgettable in the grand scheme of things.
Texas Tennis Fan
Professional
It is a shame that Nadal is so weak, that he couldn't also take advantage of such a weak field.
Texas Tennis Fan
Professional
We are actually in an era of deniers.
pirhaksar
Professional
Carlos is a great talent, even in the semis he hit through Djokovic and retrieved what would be sure winners. Only concern is given his style, the toll on his body and the tactics around game management needs major improvement. I see him go all out every point for showmanship sometimes…needs a better head. He is only 20 though and will learn fast. If he can keep fit, he will obliterate records. Sinner and Rune of course can develop as well and pose major challenges. Really excited to see how these 3 shape up in 24 months.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
He literally did last year and there were tons of threads made about him vulturing asterisked titles.
ghostofMecir
Legend
Look at the number of events played…
The other thing is that this Djokovic I'm sure, will do the same in what's called the "strong era" if you take Fedal out.
This Nole is an awesome player because what's not to love as a fan of the sport when he puts on a display such as the one a couple of nights ago?
Carlos Alcaraz despite the dip, is one of the most impressive 19/20 year olds ever. Sinner, Rune, and a few others have phenomenal peaks when they get going and honestly I won't be watching the sport I've loved since the 00s if this wasn't the case. 2023 is at the very least, comparable to the time of Federer's zenith.
Federer was a staggeringly great player. He's still the GOAT to many; Nadal was as good if not better. Djokovic wired his game to overcome such incomprehensibly amazing players and now that they're gone, now that he's a war veteran who's still in enviable shape and health, it's obvious why he dominates. He dominated even with those fellow GOATs of the sport around after all.
It's why I believe that if you let this Djokovic lose in 2011, 2015 etc., and remove the two greatest players who've picked up the racquet, he's still going to annihilate the tour. He's simply that good.
And no, he didn't suddenly dominate 2015 again because the field sucked. He doesn't dominate necessarily because the sport sucks. These things happen because these things happen. No two player's story is the same. Novak may or may not dominate the same way again next year because tomorrow is for no man, but I love the sport as much as I ever did growing up and it's an insult to people like us to constantly be shamed, essentially, because this is a bogus era, crap era etc.
In general if a product is bad/not appealing anymore, I just walk away if I perceive it to be so. I did it with WWE, and I did it with Doctor Who. Hell I've done it with Tennis myself but more for reasons such as "what's the point? Fed ain't around anymore". But you get the drift.
I love Alcaraz and it hurts that he went down 1-3 against Djokovic this year. But it's no shame. He isn't a 59-yo plumber. He's Novak Djokovic. Still fit as a fiddle. Still utterly mesmerising when he chooses to be.
This Nole is an awesome player because what's not to love as a fan of the sport when he puts on a display such as the one a couple of nights ago?
Carlos Alcaraz despite the dip, is one of the most impressive 19/20 year olds ever. Sinner, Rune, and a few others have phenomenal peaks when they get going and honestly I won't be watching the sport I've loved since the 00s if this wasn't the case. 2023 is at the very least, comparable to the time of Federer's zenith.
Federer was a staggeringly great player. He's still the GOAT to many; Nadal was as good if not better. Djokovic wired his game to overcome such incomprehensibly amazing players and now that they're gone, now that he's a war veteran who's still in enviable shape and health, it's obvious why he dominates. He dominated even with those fellow GOATs of the sport around after all.
It's why I believe that if you let this Djokovic lose in 2011, 2015 etc., and remove the two greatest players who've picked up the racquet, he's still going to annihilate the tour. He's simply that good.
And no, he didn't suddenly dominate 2015 again because the field sucked. He doesn't dominate necessarily because the sport sucks. These things happen because these things happen. No two player's story is the same. Novak may or may not dominate the same way again next year because tomorrow is for no man, but I love the sport as much as I ever did growing up and it's an insult to people like us to constantly be shamed, essentially, because this is a bogus era, crap era etc.
In general if a product is bad/not appealing anymore, I just walk away if I perceive it to be so. I did it with WWE, and I did it with Doctor Who. Hell I've done it with Tennis myself but more for reasons such as "what's the point? Fed ain't around anymore". But you get the drift.
I love Alcaraz and it hurts that he went down 1-3 against Djokovic this year. But it's no shame. He isn't a 59-yo plumber. He's Novak Djokovic. Still fit as a fiddle. Still utterly mesmerising when he chooses to be.
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That he was painting the lines against the best version of Sinner ever, averaging 130 kmph on groundies isn't the joke that TTW tends to think it is.
There are only biased observations wrt peaks and primes. Mine would be that I've seen enough athletes across sports Excel at Novak's age to be surprised at a beautifully strong Novak doing what he's been doing at this age of his.
Addendum: Federer and Nadal are no ordinary players to instantly be replaced. Keeping this in mind, I'm plenty content with the way Tennis has been today.
I have been a weak era proponent myself at times because I do recognise that today isn't the same as 2012, but is it fair to expect even Alcaraz to be as good as prime Fedal?
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
Only wish GrannyB was still alive to witness Djokovic's historical run to goathood. May she RIP.
nolefam_2024
G.O.A.T.
He crushed them.For 13 years, 2011-2023, Theim (5-7) is the only one with >40% H2H out of all 73 rivalries who played at least 4 matches against Nole..
Next year will be different but Nole would already be 36 at the start of the year and 37 before Roland Garros.
huh?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
He means he was 1 set away from a CYGS
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Are you for real?
He dominated for just one year, in 2011. After that he struggled to win slams in 2012-2014.
But the field did weaken after 2013, that much is a fact. 2014-mid 2016 was not as bad as mid 2016-present, but still weaker than what came before. No better than Fed's best years.
Literally any ATG with great longevity isn't your ordinary Joe, so don't understand why this only applies to Djokovic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
What about the other guys though? They're not even Murray/Wawrinka level. The entire 1989-2002 crop.
Is 2023 that much worse than 2006? It's decent. Maybe weaker, weakest? Tennis is dead level weak? I don't really see it to be that bad. It's alright and I am not complaining. I'm pretty okay with the current bunch but I sure did have gripes with lost gen v2.0
But it is what it is. Since I still like the sport and am entertained, I don't see the point in indulging in weak/weaker/weakest discussions. What I meant by bringing up Fed's best years isn't to mock the great man. He'd have won just the same in any other time because he was simply that good.
Will Djokovic win the same in other eras? My point is, if you remove two of the Goats he had to compete with, he still will. It's not easy to swap Fedal with equal tier peaking players instantly.
Yes Djokovic didn't dominate again until 2015. It was what his journey was. With the mental tools and versatility he has now, who knows? He could have overcome the "chokovic" phase? Feel free to disagree as it may be controversial to say that this one could solve the issues of a 'superior' self but it has happened before. Case in point, Old-erer completely owning Murray as he grew older and reversing the H2H.
Any ATG with great longevity is a tough cookie. Djokovic perhaps is the toughest of them all.
Yeah no amount of defending my liking for today's sport can reasonably explain the 90s gen.
Fabresque
Legend
He's really always been this good since 2011.
The main differences between then and now is adaptation. Modern sports medicine makes it so that the fittest athletes on the planet can continue to win and dominate years down the line. This isn't just a Djokovic in tennis thing. This is literally happening in every other sport. Lebron James had a 40 point night at 38 years old the other day and won a ring at 35. Sidney Crosby at 36 years old is on track for a 110 point season whilst the Pens are pushing for yet another cup with him, Malkin (37), and Letang (36).
And it's not like Nadal hasn't benefited from this, either. His fans can moan and complain but the reality is that he's won a solid chunk of his slams after his "prime" years as well. He had a 2 slam season literally last year at the same age as Djokovic is now, so the argument really doesn't work.
Literally the simplest explanation is exactly what most Djokovic fans are trying to say, that he is just THAT good and has retained an elite level. He's the greatest of all time, no ifs ands or buts about it.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fair enough on your overall post. Just a couple of gripes:
Well, we've seen a 36 year old Djokovic be more dominant in slams than 2006 Federer. What does that tell you?
I've been thinking: if Djokovic is not your ordinary 36 year old (which he isn't), why don't we apply the same logic for Alcaraz too? That he isn't your ordinary 19-20 year old. So why shouldn't there be greater expectations from him?
That the 36 yo Djoker will trail peak Fed in H2H hypothetically, but not completely will be owned, and that he may replicate the results in the absence of peak Fed given that he thrives on quicker conditions these days better than ever before.
Djokovic is imo the greatest 36-yo, as impressive as the Federer's and the Nadals of this era were at the age. But Otoh, I'm not sure if Alcaraz is the greatest 19/20 yo, as impressive as he may be. This explains the 3-1 h2h. If he was any better, he wouldn't be down 1-3 this year.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I certainly don't think all non-Fedalovic players should be treated equally. Players who actually challenged 2006 Fed will always be better in my eyes than players who didn't challenge 36 year old Djokovic.
Fair enough, at least you're honest.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Wait, which players "challenged" 2006 Fed? The guy went 92-5 that season and 4 of those losses were against Nadal
mike danny
Bionic Poster
- 5 sets with Haas and 4 tough sets with Davydenko at the AO. Yes, Fed wasn't 100%, but Djokovic destroyed everyone this year at the AO while not being 100%
- Nadal at RG
- Nadal at Wimb
- Blake and Roddick at the USO
Biotic
Hall of Fame
Baghdatis tried to be #1 in 2006.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Ruud was actually almost close to being no.1 in 2022.
Biotic
Hall of Fame
So would Baggy had Federer been banned from 50% of events.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
He is peaking. Much like 2019 Roger.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Exactly, if you’re going to be compared to Youngdal then I expect Youngdal results/level of play. It’s close but I think there’s enough of a gap in achievements to say RAFA was ahead at the same age. Equal number of schlems, but he had an additional F, 6 (unlucky to not have 7) Ms1000s to 4, and 17 titles to 12. Of course as you mentioned RAFA was competing against peak Fed preventing him from winning big titles like Miami and Wimby. Competition matters as far as results/level of play is concerned. You’d have to believe that 23 Joker at a similar level to 05-06 Fed to argue that Tiny Carl is playing at a similar level to 05-06dal.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Fedal fans try to not understand this?For 13 years, 2011-2023, Theim (5-7) is the only one with >40% H2H out of all 73 rivalries who played at least 4 matches against Nole..
sportsfan1
Legend
This pretty much in the last 10 years. No consistently healthy, prime fedal. Wawrinka was taking away slams from novak but didn't sustain fitness. Thiem challenged but got injured.
Raz, rune, sinner need more time to develop. Med plays too far back.
Tsisti, ruud etc won't challenge novak.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
tbh, when you think about it, take 15 years back, except Fedal, he would have still won the same way against most of them.. so what is the weak field?
Berdych? it's sinner..
His only impressive year is 2011. All yhe other dominant years, he needed his main rivals to be injured or retired or suffered catastrophic loss of form or bumgens as opponents.
2015 - Main rival suffered catastrophic loss of form after appendix op.
2021 - His main rival injured and away. Bumgens as his field.
2022 - His main rival comes back and his win rate drops. Main rival again gets injured. Bumgens as his field.
2023 - Bumgens as his field.
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