I beat the guy 60 60 and he called me "a pusher!"

Gonzalito17 · Dec 16, 2012

storypeddler said:
LOL. I am following this thread with great enjoyment, mainly because I have heard this same debate rage on for years. Apparently a lot of players seem to believe it has to be all one way or the other---it doesn't. Most of us on here aren't suggesting that "pushing" is the best or most desired style of play. Geez, if I had a 5.0-6.0 arsenal of skills, I would attempt much bigger shots and play more aggressively as well. But that's because I would have the ability to make that style work and win with it. It is ludicrous to expect players at the 3.0-3.5 level to use the same style of play as 5.0-6.0 players. Yes, those lower-rated players need to be willing to improve and add to their arsenal of shots, develop bigger and better shots and a larger variety of them if they want to become better players. But guys, the thing is that if those players try to play that bigger game all the time where they are, they will make a huge number of errors and lose a lot of matches 6-0, 6-0. I have seen it too many times. Then most of them grow disenchanted and sour on the game, frequently giving it up entirely because they believe they will never be able to get better or be competitive at any higher level of play. Instead of telling them not to push, or telling them to go for big shots to better their skills, they should be encouraged to do what works best for them, while here and there, as the occasion and opportunity presents itself, try some bigger and more challenging shots. In a tournament or league match, use what works best for you, whatever it takes to get your best possible result. But in practice matches work on your game, attempting shots that are at the top of or just beyond your skill level. In that situation you are not necessarily trying to win but are working on improving your skill set for the matches when winning IS the goal. In practice matches, go for a bit more on your first serve than you normally would. Hit out a bit more on groundstrokes. Try some shots you wouldn't normally feel really comfortable trying. As you get better and your skills improve, you will find those shots less challenging and more a routine part of your repertoire. I will say this---all other shot-making skills being equal, the player with the greatest consistency will win the match 9 times out of 10. Yes, occasionally a player will have an afternoon when he plays out of his head and nothing you do makes any difference against him, but that is by far the exception. If a player has solid big strokes, by all means use them. But if not, he is better hitting good shots that go in 95% of the time than he is attempting great shots that go in 20% of the time. If it is only about hitting hard and loving that, then play however you want. But if it is about maximizing your ability and your chances of beating your opponent, and about developing your overall game, your head is as least as important as your arm on the court. Develop your game all you want in practice matches---try any shot you wish and play balls-to-the-wall if you like. But in matches that matter, hit the very best shots you can consistently repeat. It is the best formula for winning regardless of your level. Fed, Rafa, Nole, Serena, Vica---they all play to their strengths. The smart club players do the same.

Good widsom here.

Mick · Dec 16, 2012

Anton said:
I like working on my technique and getting better. So I personally prefer to rally, rather then compete.

yeah. personally, i would like to win those hard fought points but if my opponent hits a better shots and wins the points, I would cheer for him too. Not important if I win.

Gonzalito17 · Dec 16, 2012

Anton said:
I like working on my technique and getting better. So I personally prefer to rally, rather then compete.

Yes some people just enjoy the feeling of hitting and controlling the ball. But the only way to improve really is to actually compete. It's a totally different tempo and mindset in competing than just hitting the ball back to each other, which can be fun sometimes too. But it's always more enjoyable to be the one who wins the rally or makes the opponent miss his shot, than being the one who hits the ball out or into the net.

Gonzalito17 · Dec 16, 2012

Mick said:
yeah. personally, i would like to win those hard fought points but if my opponent hits a better shots and wins the points, I would cheer for him too. Not important if I win.

yes sometimes it is a thrill to see the opponent hit an amazing shot. last week we had a long rally then I finally hit a slice down the line, a good hard biting slice. He was on the full run and somehow managed to rip a forehand cross court winner off the ball which was barely above his ankle height. Perfect shot, Federer-esque, all you can do is smile and applaud. and wish you could see a video replay of the point )

Mick · Dec 16, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
The best joy in tennis is playing a superior player and finding a way to win. This week I played a former college player and we played five 21 games over two days. He hits better than me, the observers all thought he was winning, but I have more variety and mix it up more I won four out of five games, all the scores were close 22-20, 21-18, 21-19. So you can imagine how hard fought and evenly matched we were. Incredible tennis, every ball was a fight, no free points from either side. It felt so incredible to win these games which all came down to one or two shots and many amazing shots. This is the only way to get better I feel, to play better players and find and figure out a way to win. You don't get better beating overmatched partners though that does maintain your game and confidence. But the only way to improve is to overcome a superior player by surprising yourself and raising your game, which is hard to do. And you learn as much from winning as you do losing IMO.

nice. In that situation, not only do you have to have the tennis ability but also the strategy, and mental toughness to pull through. I agree, when you play against tough opponents it's about problem solving. That's why the coaches of the top ATP pros are making the big bucks

Anton · Dec 16, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
We can play at midtown or vanderbilt at grand central, or outdoors if it's not too cold. nights are best this week or next weekend.

hmm well just let me know where and I should be able to play if it is 6pm or after on weekdays. I'll split the court cost.

Gonzalito17 said:
it's all in good fun Anton, no? Defense is an integral part of tennis, if you can't unleash winners like Rosol or Soderling, you have to be able to play strong defense and counterpunch. Errors kill.

Well we can't even come to agree on what "fun" is, so I don't know how to answer that haha.

Errors do not kill on their own, deferential between winners and errors kills.

Gonzalito17 · Dec 16, 2012

And the fitness. It was so tiring to play this high level tennis with so much running and hard hitting from deep behind the baseline. had to slow down between points and also started taking changover breaks after 15 points which really helped.

Gonzalito17 · Dec 16, 2012

errors are like getting punched in the head in the boxing match. you can only allow yourself so many errors before you get knocked out of the match.

Anton · Dec 16, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
Yes some people just enjoy the feeling of hitting and controlling the ball. But the only way to improve really is to actually compete. It's a totally different tempo and mindset in competing than just hitting the ball back to each other, which can be fun sometimes too. But it's always more enjoyable to be the one who wins the rally or makes the opponent miss his shot, than being the one who hits the ball out or into the net.

When was the last time you worked on your technique?

Mick · Dec 16, 2012

O-Oh.
Sounds like the great Federer is siding with Anton:

Roger Federer and “unforced errors”

Here’s the tennis superstar on his current form in the Australian Open

“I don’t care about unforced errors,” he said. “The guys that love the statistics, they love those things. I don’t care if I make 20 or 60 unforced errors. I don’t care, as long as I’m doing the right things and staying true to my game plan and it makes sense. If I’m just making errors and I can’t hit a winner any more, then I’m in trouble, clearly.”

http://www.boxofcrayons.biz/2011/01/roger-federer-and-unforced-errors/

Anton · Dec 16, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
errors are like getting punched in the head in the boxing match. you can only allow yourself so many errors before you get knocked out of the match.

Ok, then you should be able to answer - how many errors can you make in best of three match and still win?

Mick · Dec 16, 2012

Mick said:
O-Oh.
Sounds like the great Federer is siding with Anton:

Roger Federer and “unforced errors”

Here’s the tennis superstar on his current form in the Australian Open

“I don’t care about unforced errors,” he said. “The guys that love the statistics, they love those things. I don’t care if I make 20 or 60 unforced errors. I don’t care, as long as I’m doing the right things and staying true to my game plan and it makes sense. If I’m just making errors and I can’t hit a winner any more, then I’m in trouble, clearly.”

http://www.boxofcrayons.biz/2011/01/roger-federer-and-unforced-errors/

but of course, like storypeddler has said, we are not Federer

Gonzalito17 · Dec 16, 2012

Anton said:
When was the last time you worked on your technique?

Every time I hit a ball.

Gonzalito17 · Dec 16, 2012

Anton said:
Ok, then you should be able to answer - how many errors can you make in best of three match and still win?

Never counted. But as few as possible. Have played some sets where the opponent said after "Geez you made only two or three errors the whole set."

You see, every shot you get back over the net is like a punch landing in the fight. You try to score as many hits as possible, make your opponents deal with as many different problems as you can possibly give him.

Anton · Dec 16, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
Never counted.

Well maybe you should, because what you'd find is that YOU CAN'T.

You can't say how many errors it would take to lose. You can make a lot of errors and still win if you make enough winners and force enough errors.

Anton · Dec 16, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
Every time I hit a ball.

I don't believe it.

corbind · Dec 17, 2012

storypeddler said:
LOL. I am following this thread with great enjoyment, mainly because I have heard this same debate rage on for years. Apparently a lot of players seem to believe it has to be all one way or the other---it doesn't. Most of us on here aren't suggesting that "pushing" is the best or most desired style of play. Geez, if I had a 5.0-6.0 arsenal of skills, I would attempt much bigger shots and play more aggressively as well. But that's because I would have the ability to make that style work and win with it. It is ludicrous to expect players at the 3.0-3.5 level to use the same style of play as 5.0-6.0 players. Yes, those lower-rated players need to be willing to improve and add to their arsenal of shots, develop bigger and better shots and a larger variety of them if they want to become better players. But guys, the thing is that if those players try to play that bigger game all the time where they are, they will make a huge number of errors and lose a lot of matches 6-0, 6-0. I have seen it too many times. Then most of them grow disenchanted and sour on the game, frequently giving it up entirely because they believe they will never be able to get better or be competitive at any higher level of play. Instead of telling them not to push, or telling them to go for big shots to better their skills, they should be encouraged to do what works best for them, while here and there, as the occasion and opportunity presents itself, try some bigger and more challenging shots. In a tournament or league match, use what works best for you, whatever it takes to get your best possible result. But in practice matches work on your game, attempting shots that are at the top of or just beyond your skill level. In that situation you are not necessarily trying to win but are working on improving your skill set for the matches when winning IS the goal. In practice matches, go for a bit more on your first serve than you normally would. Hit out a bit more on groundstrokes. Try some shots you wouldn't normally feel really comfortable trying. As you get better and your skills improve, you will find those shots less challenging and more a routine part of your repertoire. I will say this---all other shot-making skills being equal, the player with the greatest consistency will win the match 9 times out of 10. Yes, occasionally a player will have an afternoon when he plays out of his head and nothing you do makes any difference against him, but that is by far the exception. If a player has solid big strokes, by all means use them. But if not, he is better hitting good shots that go in 95% of the time than he is attempting great shots that go in 20% of the time. If it is only about hitting hard and loving that, then play however you want. But if it is about maximizing your ability and your chances of beating your opponent, and about developing your overall game, your head is as least as important as your arm on the court. Develop your game all you want in practice matches---try any shot you wish and play balls-to-the-wall if you like. But in matches that matter, hit the very best shots you can consistently repeat. It is the best formula for winning regardless of your level. Fed, Rafa, Nole, Serena, Vica---they all play to their strengths. The smart club players do the same.

I believe I've seen you type huge blocks like that at least three times now so just wanted to point out the readability issue since your content is good.

Put some paragraph breaks in there so we can read it. It's nearly impossible to read 30+ sentences in one huge block like that! Paragraph breaks in a forum need not make sense for content -- just make it readable.

You could very easily break that up into 8 to 10 paragraphs and it will be soooooo much easier for us to read. When I saw the huge block my first instinct was to read the first couple of sentences and the last.

corbind · Dec 17, 2012

Anton said:
Great - where do you want to play?

I work full time but can do evenings or the weekend

Please report back to us in the thread, Gonza and Anton, how the sets go. I'd like to see a few posts by both of you about your post-match thoughts. You each can talk here but ultimately someone will win on the court.

Anton · Dec 17, 2012

corbind said:
Please report back to us in the thread, Gonza and Anton, how the sets go. I'd like to see a few posts by both of you about your post-match thoughts. You each can talk here but ultimately someone will win on the court.

No prob - I'll even take my cam and post the highlights

heninfan99 · Dec 17, 2012

Sounds like you did use the pusher strategy against this guy. There is special kind of fun to be had in feasting on your opponents errors but you could have ripped a few winners here & there...

Gonzalito17 said:
This guy at the courts needed someone to play when i got there and there was one court open. SO we go to hit. I knew I could beat him so I was content to just hit on the far side facing the sun which was I mean straight in your eyes. Then he wanted to play sets. Okay, fine, I win 60 60. After it's over, he doens't say well played. He waits a few minutes and goes into a shpiel about that he plays for fun and exercise, only been playing 4 years. So I comment yeah that's good so do I but to get better you have to have a strong will to win, a very strong desire to improve. Yadayada as I'm walking away after saying goodbye he mumbles something about losing 30 pounds and not caring if he wins or loses, and that ... "you're a pusher." Whoa. It's a snide put down of course, then I say, Yeah well I only needed to play my B game to beat you, I just played defense 90% of the time (with the sun in eyes on the one side) and waited for your error. And also that I've won several tournaments and you don't win tournaments by being just a pusher. After a few more heated words, calling me a braggart, he eventually said he didn't mean pusher as an insult that it was an honest mistake he's only been playing for 4 years. and that was about the end of it. The nerve of someone losing 60 60 and calling you a pusher. End of story )

Gonzalito17 · Dec 17, 2012

I did Henin )

Anton, how about we play Thursday night at New Overpeck Park in Leonia NJ, it's supposed to be in the 50 or 40s temp, good lights there, free courts, hard court. 6:30 or 7?

zam88 · Dec 17, 2012

beating him 6-0, 6-0 wasn't enough.

you should've also knocked him down and urinated on him.

it's the only way they'll bow to your superiority

Mick · Dec 17, 2012

zam88 said:
beating him 6-0, 6-0 wasn't enough.

you should've also knocked him down and urinated on him.

it's the only way they'll bow to your superiority

haha. This is the way to do it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdPpb44qnHA

Anton · Dec 17, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
I did Henin )

Anton, how about we play Thursday night at New Overpeck Park in Leonia NJ, it's supposed to be in the 50 or 40s temp, good lights there, free courts, hard court. 6:30 or 7?

Alrighty, so long as we are sure they keep the lights on still.

storypeddler · Dec 17, 2012

Mick said:
but of course, like storypeddler has said, we are not Federer

LOL. Touche. One other thing---I would be interested in knowing how often Fed has had 60 unforced errors in a match and won.

storypeddler · Dec 17, 2012

Anton said:
Well maybe you should, because what you'd find is that YOU CAN'T.

You can't say how many errors it would take to lose. You can make a lot of errors and still win if you make enough winners and force enough errors.

What you say is true---as far as it goes. If you are considerably better than your opponent them you should theoretically be able to make enough winners to offset a lot of errors. In an even match between fairly evenly skilled players, however, that strategy won't work. When talent is even, consistency almost always determines the victor.

storypeddler · Dec 17, 2012

corbind said:
I believe I've seen you type huge blocks like that at least three times now so just wanted to point out the readability issue since your content is good. Put some paragraph breaks in there so we can read it. It's nearly impossible to read 30+ sentences in one huge block like that! Paragraph breaks in a forum need not make sense for content -- just make it readable.

You could very easily break that up into 8 to 10 paragraphs and it will be soooooo much easier for us to read. When I saw the huge block my first instinct was to read the first couple of sentences and the last.

Understood. Good advice. Thank you.

Anton · Dec 17, 2012

storypeddler said:
What you say is true---as far as it goes. If you are considerably better than your opponent them you should theoretically be able to make enough winners to offset a lot of errors. In an even match between fairly evenly skilled players, however, that strategy won't work. When talent is even, consistency almost always determines the victor.

Well the nature of aggressive game is more unforced errors, but also more winners.

corbind · Dec 18, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
Anton, how about we play Thursday night at New Overpeck Park in Leonia NJ, it's supposed to be in the 50 or 40s temp, good lights there, free courts, hard court. 6:30 or 7?

Anton said:
No prob - I'll even take my cam and post the highlights

Great...let us know guys if it's a "date" for tennis.

Jeu · Dec 18, 2012

"...and if he cries out, I'm gona push it, push it some more..."

heninfan99 · Dec 18, 2012

If I didn't have to be somewhere at 8pm on Thursday I would volunteer as line judge....

corbind said:
Great...let us know guys if it's a "date" for tennis.

Gonzalito17 · Dec 18, 2012

Yes the lights come on there at 5, so I'll see you on Thursday night at 6:30 New Overpeck Park just off rt 95 (NJTurnpike) in Leonia.

Anton · Dec 18, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
Yes the lights come on there at 5, so I'll see you on Thursday night at 6:30 New Overpeck Park just off rt 95 (NJTurnpike) in Leonia.

ok sounds good

dizzlmcwizzl · Dec 18, 2012

OK ... I will be first to make a score prediction. Admittedly I know nothing about these folks other than their TT claims.

I say ... Anton wins a split decision ... He is up 6-4, 0-6, 3-0 when the lights go out ....

Mick · Dec 18, 2012

i don't know who is going to win but I hope Anton won't call Gonzalito a pusher if he loses

Gonzalito17 · Dec 18, 2012

48 hours till all bluffs are called.

Mick · Dec 18, 2012

Gonzalito17 said:
48 hours till all bluffs are called.

who ever loses buy the other guy a soda

Relinquis · Dec 18, 2012

I think Anton will win the match after losing the first set. Either way, he'll probably have more fun.

dyldore · Dec 18, 2012

Mick said:
talking about pushing, one night some years ago, two old guys asked my hitting partner and I to play doubles. We agreed and my hitting partner decided to push. I would rate him at 4.5 because he had beaten 4.5 players. The old guys were probably 3.5+

Well, the old guys thought my hitting partner was the weaker link because of his pushing strokes with no follow through. (he just blocked the ball, 1.5 stroke like you described). That night, the old guys pretty much lost all of the rally exchanges with him and then the sets and match and left without shaking hands. I am pretty sure they were more upset with my hitting partner than me because they hit most of the balls to him

I hadn't checked this thread for a while so here's my late reply

.

If you have pushing-esque strokes that doesn't necessarily make you a pusher, especially if you can control it in any way. If your game consists of that type of play then that's just how you play. I also don't think it makes you a pusher if you decide to goof around and push sometimes.

Like I said, the main thing that makes pushing pushing and makes pushing bad is when a player rallies with full strokes and variation and then when it comes to games they wont hit the same full strokes as they do in practice, it hurts them in the long run. They will win that match but they wont improve because they are not getting any practice hitting more difficult shots in a match situation.

Mick · Dec 18, 2012

dyldore said:
I hadn't checked this thread for a while so here's my late reply .

If you have pushing-esque strokes that doesn't necessarily make you a pusher, especially if you can control it in any way. If your game consists of that type of play then that's just how you play. I also don't think it makes you a pusher if you decide to goof around and push sometimes.

Like I said, the main thing that makes pushing pushing and makes pushing bad is when a player rallies with full strokes and variation and then when it comes to games they wont hit the same full strokes as they do in practice, it hurts them in the long run. They will win that match but they wont improve because they are not getting any practice hitting more difficult shots in a match situation.

yeah. my hitting partner was just goofing around that night. He is a terrific player who can hit super hard from both sides and is pretty lethal at the net. He doesn't practice much but he still plays better than some of us who do. It doesn't seem fair but some people have this ability

matchmaker · Dec 18, 2012

To the OP, this has happened to me also when beating an opponent a long time ago. I just played 2 or 3 rally shots before really attacking, but the problem was that my opponent would always make UEs before I could hit a winner. He didn't call me pusher, but he said I had a really defensive style. Huh? If you can't even handle a rally ball and you UE before I can hit any winners, how do you know my playing style? A well played point often begins aften the second exchange...

TomT · Dec 18, 2012

Mick said:
who ever loses buy the other guy a soda

A soda? You cannot be serious! I suggest at least a case of Dos Equis. After all, it's the beer of choice of the most interesting man in the world. A man that even Chuck Norris will not mess with.

corbind · Dec 19, 2012

TomT said:
A soda? You cannot be serious! I suggest at least a case of Dos Equis. After all, it's the beer of choice of the most interesting man in the world. A man that even Chuck Norris will not mess with.

Tom's right. But the ante should be upped to a six-pack of the winner's choice. Tom and I shall join the actions via the live web cam spectating from our homes with Dos Equis brew in hand. Ah....

heninfan99 · Dec 19, 2012

The Overpeck Park authorities were going to move this to a Monday final but the ATP opposes the move.

Win or lose Anton will have my respect if he actually drives out there. I'm sure they will become fast friends as the love of the game trumps all.

heninfan99 · Dec 19, 2012

I actually originated the Wikipedia entry on Pusher (tennis) years ago after losing to one.

The entry has been edited over the years. IMHO the very best pushers also use psychological warfare. Like asking for the score as you begin your service motion, talking & shouting as a hindrance and etc.

I've grown to appreciate the pusher style but they have no love for the beauty of the game which is why I got into it to begin with. They only love to compete at all costs.

sundaypunch · Dec 19, 2012

A good article with insight from Jack Kramer on defensive play (aka "pushing" to many here).

Revisiting the Wisdom of Mr. Jack Kramer

Relinquis · Dec 19, 2012

It really is a different mindset.

I grew up watching too much Sampras and psychologically feel compelled to go for a winner by the 2nd time my racquet touches the ball on every point. I hit some of my best shots of the year last night, including an in-the-air swinging backhand volley cross court that hits the line... I lost the match 6-4, 6-1.

My current hitting partner is a pusher. I am learning discipline and the need to have a game plan or strategy to build a point. To set myself up for a winner, instead of forcing one.

On our drive from the match...

Relinquis: "hey, did you see that jumping backhand i pulled off in the first set?"
pusherfriend: "yeah. you should have let the ball pass you, it was going out"
Relinquis: "thanks"

Anton · Dec 19, 2012

heninfan99 said:
The Overpeck Park authorities were going to move this to a Monday final but the ATP opposes the move.

Win or lose Anton will have my respect if he actually drives out there. I'm sure they will become fast friends as the love of the game trumps all.

I'm just driving out for some tennis - there are no lit courts here on SI and only 6 inside courts - so getting court time in the winter is PIA.

I swear I'm moving to Cali sooner or later

Anton · Dec 19, 2012

Relinquis said:
It really is a different mindset.

I grew up watching too much Sampras and psychologically feel compelled to go for a winner by the 2nd time my racquet touches the ball on every point. I hit some of my best shots of the year last night, including an in-the-air swinging backhand volley cross court that hits the line... I lost the match 6-4, 6-1.

My current hitting partner is a pusher. I am learning discipline and the need to have a game plan or strategy to build a point. To set myself up for a winner, instead of forcing one.

On our drive from the match...

Relinquis: "hey, did you see that jumping backhand i pulled off in the first set?"
pusherfriend: "yeah. you should have let the ball pass you, it was going out"
Relinquis: "thanks"

I think the key here is to not sacrifice smooth form for harder hitting.

Basically hit as hard as you can while maintaining relaxed arm and balance.

Mick · Dec 19, 2012

heninfan99 said:
I've grown to appreciate the pusher style but they have no love for the beauty of the game which is why I got into it to begin with. They only love to compete at all costs.

In my opinion, the beauty of the game is the point construction and if you are a good player, you should be able to construct enough points to beat a pusher. If not then you aren't as good of player as you thought

If you are the kind of player who would go for a winner at the first opportunity, I think a match against a very consistent player would be more interesting than match against another player who also plays first strike tennis. That matchup would produce a match with no rally and no point construction whatsoever.

I beat the guy 60 60 and he called me "a pusher!"

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