2018 WTF : Roger Federer(2) vs Dominic Thiem (6)

Who wins?


  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
Federer just admitted in an interview on German TV that he wasn’t really motivated to play this tournament. Then yesterday he allegedly considered to just go on vacation, before finally he decided to give it a serious try against Thiem. Then he honestly said this tournament is “nothing special” for him, because he was already there 16 times anyway.
Feel as if this is a bit of reverse psychology 101.

Basically, lower expectations all around. Added bonus if he actually ends up beating the world no. 1 as a disaffected senior citizen prioritizing holiday with the fam. ;)
 

PeteD

Legend
So would I. It sounds utterly contrary to what Fed said in his presser and what he's said all year: he is focusing on winning the YEC. He said he didn't practice yesterday because it was a tactical decision to just enjoy the family for a day.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/13/roge...e-ahead-of-must-win-atp-finals-match-8137019/
I just checked Deutche Welle and Fed sounded completely upbeat.
EDIT: and the Frankfurt paper just posted this (Google translate);
...
Unlike on Sunday Federer showed stable and strong from the baseline this time. With early breaks he sat down quickly in both sets of Thiem and then left the Austrians no chance. Federer, who has already won the year-end tournament six times, is on the hunt for his 100th tournament victory. "That feels good. I am very happy. I showed a reaction after the last game, "said the 37-year-old after his sovereign victory. "I love playing here," added the veteran.

Among the fans in the well-filled O2 Arena "Fedex" is the absolute darling. Already early in the match, the approximately 20,000 spectators cheered him loudly with calls and chants. The Swiss was relieved after his victory, threw his headband into the audience and grinned. With a defeat his off would have been sealed after two group matches.
...
 
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racquetreligion

Hall of Fame
It surprises me many thought Thiem would pip Fed in 3, Doms best days are sadly gone as he doesnt have the hunger that he does for social media and selfies
He is too stiff, overworks his shots with no efficiency as he jumps into almost every shot never throwing caution to the wind. A younger version of Berdych
with less efficiency and similar neurons. Federer at his worst might lose to anyone even a far from his past form Nissin Ninja but not this Selfie Gen.
 

La Grande

G.O.A.T.
I’m nearly home. Another terrific experience. Everytime I’ve watched Roger live he has won :D
I have to say, Roger’s topspin BH held up better than it usually does. So dominant on serve too. Movement still excellent.

But damn... Thiem was horrible. It was great to see some of his shotmaking live, but his head was constantly down and he wasn’t consistent at all.

The support Federer gets... its relentless. I had an Irish guy behind me screaming for him every other point. Nearly busted my ear drums :laughing:

How did you enjoy it @rainingaces @bananaforehand ??
 

George Turner

Hall of Fame
It surprises me many thought Thiem would pip Fed in 3, Doms best days are sadly gone as he doesnt have the hunger that he does for social media and selfies
He is too stiff, overworks his shots with no efficiency as he jumps into almost every shot never throwing caution to the wind. A younger version of Berdych
with less efficiency and similar neurons. Federer at his worst might lose to anyone even a far from his past form Nissin Ninja but not this Selfie Gen.

One of my first ever post on TW :D

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/is-thiem-the-new-berdych.601070/
 
I’m nearly home. Another terrific experience. Everytime I’ve watched Roger live he has won :D
I have to say, Roger’s topspin BH held up better than it usually does. So dominant on serve too. Movement still excellent.

But damn... Thiem was horrible. It was great to see some of his shotmaking live, but his head was constantly down and he wasn’t consistent at all.

The support Federer gets... its relentless. I had an Irish guy behind me screaming for him every other point. Nearly busted my ear drums :laughing:

How did you enjoy it @rainingaces @bananaforehand ??
Found the match a bit boring to be honest, it wasn't a masterclass from Federer nor was it a really entertaining/competitive or high quality match. All that said, had a good evening. I really would have been a bit disappointed if I'd never been able to see Federer live at least once, so that completes all the big names for me.

Agreed with the crowd, I've preferred atmosphere at other matches I've been too where there might be a favorite, but it's not as much as that.
 

AndyM

Legend
Just got home just just got home from work and watch the mighty fed destroy team not impressed at all team totally sucks. Three guys will destroy Federer when he plays them Anderson and in the semi-final whether it's zverev or Djokovic
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
If there's a Federer-Djokovic SF, right? SF specifically?

Ok, please remind me about the bet if I forget.
We could make a real spectacle of this thing...

Set up a thread with a poll and everything. :D

What do you think?
 
I’m nearly home. Another terrific experience. Everytime I’ve watched Roger live he has won :D
I have to say, Roger’s topspin BH held up better than it usually does. So dominant on serve too. Movement still excellent.

But damn... Thiem was horrible. It was great to see some of his shotmaking live, but his head was constantly down and he wasn’t consistent at all.

The support Federer gets... its relentless. I had an Irish guy behind me screaming for him every other point. Nearly busted my ear drums :laughing:

How did you enjoy it @rainingaces @bananaforehand ??

It was excellent @La Grande, loudest I've heard the o2, 106 dbs.

Federer was on form tonight and Thiem looked uncomfortable because of the pressure put on him from the other side of the net.

A simular score to the last time the two met on hard courts. Thiem wins the matches on slow court's, Federer on the fast court's, no real surprise.
 

AndyM

Legend
Except team is in our machine and can't keep the ball in play that's what you need to do against fed make him hit one more shot until Fed Shanks one
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
Hold your horses, it's a long way to go.
Right. But we've got a bit less than two days to lobby on our own behalves.

Because what I'm envisioning here is a straight-up popularity contest (not that it would affect the wager).

e.g., "Whom would you rather take a leave from the boards?" :D
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Boring match.

One conclusion I got from this is that Thiem's approach has not changed in the last 2 years. Point construction is just not in his dictionary.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Right. But we've got a bit less than two days to lobby on our own behalves.

Because what I'm envisioning here is a straight-up popularity contest (not that it would affect the wager).

e.g., "Whom would you rather take a leave from the boards?" :D
I'm more of a 0-1 poster so I already know the answer to that question.
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
I'm more of a 0-1 poster so I already know the answer to that question.
Oh, I don't always aim to please.

I am quite confident that this would be a most enlightening exercise. :laughing:

With reverberations into the new year and beyond.

Because, you see, votes will be made public. :)
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
You can make a thread if you like.
Very cool.

Would love to make it now, in all honesty. Pre-match hype and all that. But I guess if someone doesn't make the date, it'd be a bit of a buzzkill.

Are they guaranteed to meet in the SF? Or is it certain permutations?

I'd be down for the wager even if it's in a final.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Very cool.

Would love to make it now, in all honesty. Pre-match hype and all that. But I guess if someone doesn't make the date, it'd be a bit of a buzzkill.

Are they guaranteed to meet in the SF? Or is it certain permutations?

I'd be down for the wager even if it's in a final.
It's possible they won't meet in the SF. You never know with Federer and he could beat Anderson and top his group while Djokovic is obviously favored to top his.
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
It's possible they won't meet in the SF. You never know with Federer and he could beat Anderson and top his group while Djokovic is obviously favored to top his.
Okay, well would you be good with carrying on with this thing, regardless of whether they meet in the SF or F?

If not, I understand.
 

Federev

Legend
WTF-Semi-Finals-Permutations-768x432.jpg
Here are the scenarios.
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
Ha. You have no ideas how many ideas I'm getting for this thing.

I'll float a couple of them. You tell me whether either hold appeal for you.
  • Tag-team. We partner up with other posters and multiply the consequences.
  • Penalty-match. The wager-winner gets to stay; this we know. But if the masses vote him out, off the island he goes. :laughing:
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Ha. You have no ideas how many ideas I'm getting for this thing.

I'll float a couple of them. You tell me whether either hold appeal for you.
  • Tag-team. We partner up with other posters and multiply the consequences.
  • Penalty-match. The wager-winner gets to stay; this we know. But if the masses vote him out, off the island he goes. :laughing:
What do you mean by multiply the consequences?

I'd keep it simple:
Thread title - who do you think's gonna win a Federer-Djokovic encounter at the WTF?
Poll - Who are you rooting for: #team tennis_pro #team FedFosterWallace
Stake: whoever wins the bet gets to stay. Loser has to take a break from TTW until the new season starts (let's say until the Hopman Cup starts - December 31st). Or to make it funnier the only thing you can post during that time is "fedr"
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
What do you mean by multiply the consequences?

I'd keep it simple:
Thread title - who do you think's gonna win a Federer-Djokovic encounter at the WTF?
Poll - Who are you rooting for: #team tennis_pro #team FedFosterWallace
Stake: whoever wins the bet gets to stay. Loser has to take a break from TTW until the new season starts (let's say until the Hopman Cup starts - December 31st). Or to make it funnier the only thing you can post during that time iis "fedr"
Well, the poll respondents would be voting on us. The Fed-Djo stuff we'd leave to the match thread.

By "multiply the consequences" I just meant increasing the "casualties." The more, the merrier. :D

Many more could get in on the fun. I suppose it could, in theory, get much more elaborate, with duration of the penalties growing exponentially in coordination with losses absorbed by the various teams. But that wasn't on my mind.

This is going to be great. Win-win for everyone.

I, too, was possibly going to go on an extended break anyway, but this would certainly provide an impetus. But I did like the idea of the "vote-out" serving as a back-up. :)
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Well, the poll respondents would be voting on us. The Fed-Djo stuff we'd leave to the match thread.

By "multiply the consequences" I just meant increasing the "casualties." The more, the merrier. :D

Many more could get in on the fun. I suppose it could, in theory, get much more elaborate, with duration of the penalties growing exponentially in coordination with losses absorbed by the various teams. But that wasn't on my mind.

This is going to be great. Win-win for everyone.

I, too, was possibly going to go on an extended break anyway, but this would certainly provide an impetus. But I did like the idea of the "vote-out" serving as a back-up. :)
So it's not really about Federer-Djokovic, is it?
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
So it's not really about Federer-Djokovic, is it?
No backing out now, buddy!

Seriously, though, it certainly began as that, didn't it?

And if it weren't, I have to imagine that neither of us would be here in the first place.
 
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Deleted member 743561

Guest
Ok, give me your best idea.
I gave you the best of the lot. At least concerning the immediate wager.

Ultimately, the concept could be franchised, of course.

P.S. Can game day get here already? :censored::cautious::whistle:
 

Luka888

Professional
Kudos to Fed but Thiem was horrible. 11W, 34 UE ... what to say when a player makes 34UE in less than an hour? He looked like he didn't belong at the tournament. Let's say he had a bad day, maybe he was nervous but still. People who say that Thiem is good for clay and slow HCs only might have a point. I expected a much more interesting, closer match. Could someone teach Dominic how to improve his net play? That was awful too.
On the other hand, I'm happy Fed won. Thiem has nobody to blame but himself.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Yup.

It's the bane of the single handed backhand, more so than the fact that it takes longer to set up.
I've been busy with work, but that started me thinking: has there ever been a player with a 1HBH with the kind of return stats of Agassi, Murray, Nadal, Djokovic? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but maybe I'm missing someone. Borg must have had similar stats, and I think Connors also, all guys with 2HBHs. It seems to me that if we ever get a guy with a 2HBH who also has the kind of net skills that people like Fed have, that guy would dominate like no one we've every seen.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
I've been busy with work, but that started me thinking: has there ever been a player with a 1HBH with the kind of return stats of Agassi, Murray, Nadal, Djokovic? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but maybe I'm missing someone. Borg must have had similar stats, and I think Connors also, all guys with 2HBHs. It seems to me that if we ever get a guy with a 2HBH who also has the kind of net skills that people like Fed have, that guy would dominate like no one we've every seen.
Edberg is the only player with a single hander who's top 15 on 2nd serve return points won on HC. He's 15th.

For the 1st serve return, I think having single or double hander matters less, the numbers are definitely more similar, but I'd guess both have distinctive advantages, but the biggest determinant of 1st serve return game is mostly having great reaction speeds, swings that are very efficient when shortened and a very explosive first step.

That being said, I don't think the main advantage of the single hander is a better net game. I think it's better shots when you don't have your feet planted and I think it's especially a better slice. A great slice controls rallies so well cause there's only gonna be pace in a rally if you want there to be pace, especially if you have a dangerous forehand.
 
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BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
On German version of pay TV channel Sky. And he said it in German, so I translated it. All started with a rather stupid question. “You have a new nickname: ‘Grumpy Fed’. Why were you so grumpy on Sunday?

I thought he would be a bit angry about this question, but no. And then he said all that, including he wasn’t happy to be on court on Sunday. Then yesterday he allegedly didn’t practise and discussed with his team if he really wants to play today
Boring match.

One conclusion I got from this is that Thiem's approach has not changed in the last 2 years. Point construction is just not in his dictionary.
But you have countless people still thinking he will win slams. I don’t think he’ll ever win RG either. Great fitness, zero tennis brain.
 

George Turner

Hall of Fame
But you have countless people still thinking he will win slams. I don’t think he’ll ever win RG either. Great fitness, zero tennis brain.

Thiem's one of these players whose shots appear more effective than they really are, thus fooling fans. Dimitrov is another one, style over substance. In Reality Thiems shots only have the substance when in the correct conditions i.e. a clay court.

Nobody would say Andy Murrays shots look as good as these guys, but they're a lot more effective.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Edberg is the only player with a single hander who's top 15 on 2nd serve return points won on HC. He's 15th.
I've looked at Edberg's stats, and I was wondering about him. I've been deluged by work and have had almost no time to write.

First of all, going by ATP stats is hard for guys whose careers started before 1991 because we don't know if we are looking at peak years only going by such stats. My guess is that Edberg's best years re return are not available, though 1991 was a strong year.

Looking at that year, 53.87% of 2nd return points HC, 8th. Fed in 2006, 53.33%, so pretty close. Fed was 7th. But generally this stat goes down with age.

2003 might have been a great year for Fed, but the ATP is screwed up that year - 56.56% for Fed. And we KNOW that's wrong. It's wrong for everyone. But since he is listed as #7 and they screwed up everyone, probably around 53%.

That seems pretty close.
For the 1st serve return, I think having single or double hander matters less, the numbers are definitely more similar, but I'd guess both have distinctive advantages, but the biggest determinant of 1st serve return game is mostly having great reaction speeds, swings that are very efficient when shortened and a very explosive first step.
We also have to think about how the game has changed. Edberg was weakest on clay, exactly where you'd expect a guy to have more problems who is an attacker. You would expect Novak to be insanely good on clay, but for career he is #7 and is a good bit under a bunch of clay court specialists. He was an overall monster in 2011, but his stats on HC were about equal, and normally they are always lower. Clay is Djokovic's weakest surface, which to me shows that he is not essentially a grinder but more of a blend.

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/2nd-serve-return-points-won/all/clay/all/
That being said, I don't think the main advantage of the single hander is a better net game. I think it's better shots when you don't have your feet planted and I think it's especially a better slice. A great slice controls rallies so well cause there's only gonna be pace in a rally if you want there to be pace, especially if you have a dangerous forehand.
It should not be an advantage, which is why I think we have not yet seen a player who takes full advantage of a 2HBH combined with top notch net skills. And this is a puzzler to me because today there are so many players who also have a good single handed slice.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
I've looked at Edberg's stats, and I was wondering about him. I've been deluged by work and have had almost no time to write.

First of all, going by ATP stats is hard for guys whose careers started before 1991 because we don't know if we are looking at peak years only going by such stats. My guess is that Edberg's best years re return are not available, though 1991 was a strong year.

Looking at that year, 53.87% of 2nd return points HC, 8th. Fed in 2006, 53.33%, so pretty close. Fed was 7th. But generally this stat goes down with age.

2003 might have been a great year for Fed, but the ATP is screwed up that year - 56.56% for Fed. And we KNOW that's wrong. It's wrong for everyone. But since he is listed as #7 and they screwed up everyone, probably around 53%.

That seems pretty close.

We also have to think about how the game has changed. Edberg was weakest on clay, exactly where you'd expect a guy to have more problems who is an attacker. You would expect Novak to be insanely good on clay, but for career he is #7 and is a good bit under a bunch of clay court specialists. He was an overall monster in 2011, but his stats on HC were about equal, and normally they are always lower. Clay is Djokovic's weakest surface, which to me shows that he is not essentially a grinder but more of a blend.

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/2nd-serve-return-points-won/all/clay/all/

It should not be an advantage, which is why I think we have not yet seen a player who takes full advantage of a 2HBH combined with top notch net skills. And this is a puzzler to me because today there are so many players who also have a good single handed slice.
I think there's a greater overlap in coordination between single handers, a slice backhand and net skills than a double hander. Much more wrist control required for the one hander, which is why I think every player would have a better net game if they had a one hander than if they had a double hander

But yeah clay actually negates returning ability and ability to take balls early and control the center of the court.

Djokovic' signature shots, the insane sliders on HC, are standard for everyone on clay which is why it negates his edge. Also deeper, higher and slower play makes it harder to expose an opponents movement, so unless his forehamd is firing it's harder for him to be offensive.

Clay is much more about generating pace than redirecting it, which is where Djoko and Murray traditionally shine
 

mightyjeditribble

Hall of Fame
I just checked Deutche Welle and Fed sounded completely upbeat.
EDIT: and the Frankfurt paper just posted this (Google translate);
...
Unlike on Sunday Federer showed stable and strong from the baseline this time. With early breaks he sat down quickly in both sets of Thiem and then left the Austrians no chance. Federer, who has already won the year-end tournament six times, is on the hunt for his 100th tournament victory. "That feels good. I am very happy. I showed a reaction after the last game, "said the 37-year-old after his sovereign victory. "I love playing here," added the veteran.

Among the fans in the well-filled O2 Arena "Fedex" is the absolute darling. Already early in the match, the approximately 20,000 spectators cheered him loudly with calls and chants. The Swiss was relieved after his victory, threw his headband into the audience and grinned. With a defeat his off would have been sealed after two group matches.
...

Yes, I think that must have been misquoted / mistranslated / misunderstood.

Here is what Fed said after the Thiem match:

... I think I saw it too negative. So for me it was really important to remind myself what a thrill it is to play here at The O2. I love playing in London, always have, always will. It is my 16th year qualifying, so sometimes it's just another match. I think that's maybe what happened to me, and in a very disappointing way.”
On Tuesday, Federer saw highlights of all of the Nitto ATP Finals action over the past 10 years since the tournament moved to London. That added a bit of extra fire to his game.
“I really reminded myself again what a pleasure and what a privilege it is to play in this arena. This is when you start playing better tennis instead of thinking about all the bad things that are going on,” Federer said. “There's no reason to get that negative. The tournament has only just started.”

So, he is not saying at all that it is just another match for him, but rather that at the time he may have let his negative emotions take over too much, and felt that way - but that is not actually what he thinks at all.

https://www.nittoatpfinals.com/en/n...ederer-nitto-atp-finals-2018-tuesday-reaction
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
My gut - Thiem will bend over nicely for his germanic papa.

My head - Thiem should win this in 2 sets if he plays up to his capabilities.

Why would he bend over of Fed? He's got a 2-2 H2H with him including beating him at one of his pet events in Halle
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
But I was right isn't it. ;)

Match has not been played yet. Anyway Thiem was good enough to bagel Nadal and take him 5 sets at the USO even bending over for him as much as he did in that match, so either Nadal isn't much or Thiem decent even bending over
 
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