Did Djokovic and Becker choke against their greatest rivals in Grand Slams?

[McEnroeisanartist]

Djokovic is 28-26 against his greatest rival, Nadal, but 6-9 in Grand Slams.

Becker was 25-10 against his greatest rival, Edberg, but 1-3 in Grand Slams.

Would you say that Djokovic and Becker choked against their greatest rivals in Grand Slams?

 

[PerilousPear]

I feel like "choked" gets thrown far too much around here. Losing to Nadal at RG 6 times isn't considered choking. Apart from 2013, Djokovic hardly had any of those matches in the bag to choke them away.

 

[StrongRule]

No, Djokovic never choked against Nadal in a slam. It's honestly a joke to say that he choked in RG 2013.

 

[ibbi]

I think the only one of Djokovic's matches you could say he may have choked was the 2013 US Open final, but then I think that might have as much to do with the smart way Nadal played him as anything else.

He did double fault away not one, but two Roland Garros finals, but that's choking in a moment (albeit a very large moment), not exactly a whole match defined by such moments.

 

[Djokodalerer31]

I think the only one of Djokovic's matches you could say he may have choked was the 2013 US Open final, but then I think that might have as much to do with the smart way Nadal played him as anything else.

He did double fault away not one, but two Roland Garros finals, but that's choking in a moment (albeit a very large moment), not exactly a whole match defined by such moments.

He choke badly year prior to that against Murray though! That final set against him was a complete disaster! That is after winning previous 2 comfortably!

 

[helterskelter]

With regard to Becker v Edberg, there are a few things worth noting:

1. None of their Slam matches was on carpet, where Becker had a huge advantage over Edberg. So, it's not quite comparing like with like. In four Slam matches on carpet, Edberg would be doing well to get one victory. [Carpet preferable for Becker because, while being fast, it had a pretty even bounce, which helped him on return, and somewhat negated Edberg's superior volleying]. Becker's lead was 13-4 on carpet, and 12-6 on all other surfaces combined.
2. Relatedly, none of their matches was indoors. If Edberg were to beat Becker, it'd need to be outdoors. Becker also beat Edberg indoors on clay in the 1988 Davis Cup final.
3. Becker's lead was 15-9 after Edberg won the fourth of their Slam matches. But Becker then went 10-1 for the rest of their career, and retired injured in his only defeat. Had they played more in Slams during that run, it's likely that Becker would have won.
4. All that said, I believe that Becker twice lost from a break up in the fifth set against Edberg in Slams. He was certainly a break up in the 1990 Wimbledon final fifth set and I believe he was also a break up in the 1989 Roland Garros semi-final fifth set. On both occasions, however, Edberg had earlier blown a two-set lead, so it'd at least have to be said to be mutual choking. Edberg also lost the second set of the 1989 Wimbledon final despite leading 6-5 40-0 ON SERVE (and winning only 1 of the remaining 13 points in the set).

 

[Zetty]

Primetime Nadal is maybe the most clutch player of all time. There was no choking from Djoker except like someone else mentioned maybe in the 2013 US Open final.

 

[N01E]

Can't believe how Novak could choke that RG QF back in 2006. He had it in the bag.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Would you say that Djokovic and Becker choked against their greatest rivals in Grand Slams?

I'd like anyone here to name one match where Boris Becker choked. He was a mental titan, from the very beginning of his career to his last match in 1999. He lost to Edberg in those Wimbledon finals because Edberg out volleyed him and had the greater passing shots on those particular days. Boris also won several slam finals where he was prohibitively the underdog: 1985 WImbledon against Curren and the 1989 USO against Ivan.

Djokovic had many retirements in grand slam matches early in his career against his greatest rival, Nadal. He quit in his 2006 French Open QF. He quit in 2007 Wimbledon semis, both against Nadal. He quit against Roddick in the AO in 2009. I'm not sure if you want to call quitting in a grand slam match a choke, but Becker didn't quit in any slam match. Make of that what you will.

 

[DSH]

Nadal choked in AO 2012 and he failed miserably in Wimbledon 2018.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Nadal choked in AO 2012 and he failed miserably in Wimbledon 2018.

Yeah, but Nadal choked at a specific moment, though it was key, with that backhand, the same way Djokovic choked on a specific moment at RG 2013 which was key.

And not sure how being one point from winning it, means Nadal failed miserably at Wimbledon 2018.

 

[Deleted member 743561]

.

 

[DSH]

Yeah, but Nadal choked at a specific moment, though it was key, with that backhand, the same way Djokovic choked on a specific moment at RG 2013 which was key.

And not sure how being one point from winning it, means Nadal failed miserably at Wimbledon 2018.

It doesn't matter how close he was; the Spaniard could not surpass his black beast and lost an unbeatable possibility (he would have defeated Anderson in the final, I have no doubt) to win Wimbledon again.
And we already know all the future repercussions that would have occurred from writing that chapter.
But we better leave it that way!

 

[DSH]

I know for a fact that this particular poster is fond of circular arrays.

Talking about being wrong!

.
A little amorypaz, you need.

 

[Cashman]

With regard to Becker v Edberg, there are a few things worth noting:

1. None of their Slam matches was on carpet, where Becker had a huge advantage over Edberg. So, it's not quite comparing like with like. In four Slam matches on carpet, Edberg would be doing well to get one victory. [Carpet preferable for Becker because, while being fast, it had a pretty even bounce, which helped him on return, and somewhat negated Edberg's superior volleying]. Becker's lead was 13-4 on carpet, and 12-6 on all other surfaces combined.
2. Relatedly, none of their matches was indoors. If Edberg were to beat Becker, it'd need to be outdoors. Becker also beat Edberg indoors on clay in the 1988 Davis Cup final.
3. Becker's lead was 15-9 after Edberg won the fourth of their Slam matches. But Becker then went 10-1 for the rest of their career, and retired injured in his only defeat. Had they played more in Slams during that run, it's likely that Becker would have won.
4. All that said, I believe that Becker twice lost from a break up in the fifth set against Edberg in Slams. He was certainly a break up in the 1990 Wimbledon final fifth set and I believe he was also a break up in the 1989 Roland Garros semi-final fifth set. On both occasions, however, Edberg had earlier blown a two-set lead, so it'd at least have to be said to be mutual choking. Edberg also lost the second set of the 1989 Wimbledon final despite leading 6-5 40-0 ON SERVE (and winning only 1 of the remaining 13 points in the set).

This is a really good summary.

Up until 1992, Becker only led 7-5 on outdoors and 3-2 on grass. I would argue that once Edberg's back injuries affected his serve, it hurt him against Becker more than most players.

 

[Djokodal Fan]

Let's find out who choked against who outside of clay. Just coz clay is Nadal's Stronghold doesn't mean Djokovic choked on it. It just means Nadal is good on Clay. Real choke job was USOpen 2013 final which even Djokovic cannot explain!

 

[NoleFam]

I'd like anyone here to name one match where Boris Becker choked. He was a mental titan, from the very beginning of his career to his last match in 1999. He lost to Edberg in those Wimbledon finals because Edberg out volleyed him and had the greater passing shots on those particular days. Boris also won several slam finals where he was prohibitively the underdog: 1985 WImbledon against Curren and the 1989 USO against Ivan.

Djokovic had many retirements in grand slam matches early in his career against his greatest rival, Nadal. He quit in his 2006 French Open QF. He quit in 2007 Wimbledon semis, both against Nadal. He quit against Roddick in the AO in 2009. I'm not sure if you want to call quitting in a grand slam match a choke, but Becker didn't quit in any slam match. Make of that what you will.

Djokovic had two retirements against Nadal in their rivalry: one in 2006 and one in 2007. We all know he struggled physically early on but he's only had 2 retirements in the last 8 years, one where he was out of the game for 6 months. Also, Becker retired twice in Wimbledon, once in 1984 and once in 1996, so you are incorrect.

 

[Wurm]

The notion of match-ups seems to evade a few too many people on this forum.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

I'd like anyone here to name one match where Boris Becker choked. He was a mental titan, from the very beginning of his career to his last match in 1999. He lost to Edberg in those Wimbledon finals because Edberg out volleyed him and had the greater passing shots on those particular days. Boris also won several slam finals where he was prohibitively the underdog: 1985 WImbledon against Curren and the 1989 USO against Ivan.

Djokovic had many retirements in grand slam matches early in his career against his greatest rival, Nadal. He quit in his 2006 French Open QF. He quit in 2007 Wimbledon semis, both against Nadal. He quit against Roddick in the AO in 2009. I'm not sure if you want to call quitting in a grand slam match a choke, but Becker didn't quit in any slam match. Make of that what you will.

Against Muster in MC

 

[scotus]

There is not much to say about Chokovic and Choker.

Let's all get back to the subject of Chokerer.

 

[CYGS]

Like how the OP loves to create a troll thread and then dump it immediately after people leave comments and move on to create another one.

 

[mika1979]

Djokovic is 28-26 against his greatest rival, Nadal, but 6-9 in Grand Slams.

Becker was 25-10 against his greatest rival, Edberg, but 1-3 in Grand Slams.

Would you say that Djokovic and Becker choked against their greatest rivals in Grand Slams?

Well not really as they have played 6-7 times at FO where nads is unbeatable. I think more a question of nadal not making it deep enough to play him at the other slam. 7 out of 15 have been french

 

[mika1979]

I'd like anyone here to name one match where Boris Becker choked. He was a mental titan, from the very beginning of his career to his last match in 1999. He lost to Edberg in those Wimbledon finals because Edberg out volleyed him and had the greater passing shots on those particular days. Boris also won several slam finals where he was prohibitively the underdog: 1985 WImbledon against Curren and the 1989 USO against Ivan.

Djokovic had many retirements in grand slam matches early in his career against his greatest rival, Nadal. He quit in his 2006 French Open QF. He quit in 2007 Wimbledon semis, both against Nadal. He quit against Roddick in the AO in 2009. I'm not sure if you want to call quitting in a grand slam match a choke, but Becker didn't quit in any slam match. Make of that what you will.

He also won ten less slams, and had a brief spell at number one so not much to compare

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Djoe's maddest chokery came against Murygoat and Stanibod. The only time he really ought to have been disgusted after a slam loss to Fedal was USO '13, awful mindset there.

 

[CYGS]

Well not really as they have played 6-7 times at FO where nads is unbeatable. I think more a question of nadal not making it deep enough to play him at the other slam. 7 out of 15 have been french

Except Djokovic did beat Nadal on FO.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Djoe's maddest chokery came against Murygoat and Stanibod. The only time he really ought to have been disgusted after a slam loss to Fedal was USO '13, awful mindset there.

I was watching this match back over a week ago, even the commentators were talking about what the heck was Djokovic doing out there. They were coming up with all kinds of explanations, but his mind was completely wack in that match.

 

[ABCD]

Djoe's maddest chokery came against Murygoat and Stanibod. The only time he really ought to have been disgusted after a slam loss to Fedal was USO '13, awful mindset there.

I disagree. All 4 matches Djokovic lost against Murray and Wawrinka were lost deservedly; fair and square. He lost against better players on a day. Choke is when your performance dramatically decline when playing crucial points and I have seen elements of that in Djokovic's loss against Nadal in 2013 RG SF (the net).

 

[StrongRule]

I disagree. All 4 matches Djokovic lost against Murray and Wawrinka were lost deservedly; fair and square. He lost against better players on a day. Choke is when your performance dramatically decline when playing crucial points and I have seen elements of that in Djokovic's loss against Nadal in 2013 RG SF (the net).

If you believe RG 2013 was a choke then you should leave and never watch tennis again. You know nothing about that game anyway.

 

[StrongRule]

I was watching this match back over a week ago, even the commentators were talking about what the heck was Djokovic doing out there. They were coming up with all kinds of explanations, but his mind was completely wack in that match.

I don't know why Nadal doesn't get any credit for USO 2013 here. IMO that was one of the best wins of his career. Djokovic played great tennis in the second set and the first half of the third, then had a triple break point at 4-4 which Nadal saved himself with very clutch play and then somehow managed to break and take the set. I agree Djokovic went down a lot in the fourth set, but who wouldn't after losing the third set like that.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I don't know why Nadal doesn't get any credit for USO 2013 here. IMO that was one of the best wins of his career. Djokovic played great tennis in the second set and the first half of the third, then had a triple break point at 4-4 which Nadal saved himself with very clutch play and then somehow managed to break and take the set. I agree Djokovic went down a lot in the fourth set, but who wouldn't after losing the third set like that.

I don't why you need to be so insecure here. Nobody is taking credit away from Nadal, but Djokovic's head was scrambled a lot in that match, even the commentators were picking up, questioning why he wasn't moving his feet, why he wasn't getting to the net to put away the balls he was doing in previous matches, why his shot selection was questionable. Nadal played very clutch at a key point in the match, that goes without saying, but this conversation is over if you think Djokovic was playing great from start to finish.

 

[StrongRule]

I don't why you need to be so insecure here. Nobody is taking credit away from Nadal, but Djokovic's head was scrambled a lot in that match, even the commentators were picking up, questioning why he wasn't moving his feet, why he wasn't getting to the net to put away the balls he was doing in previous matches, why his shot selection was questionable. Nadal played very clutch at a key point in the match, that goes without saying, but this conversation is over if you think Djokovic was playing great from start to finish.

I said Djokovic played great in the second set and the first half of the third, which is true. Never said he played great in the first and fourth sets. Well, Nadal also was VERY far from playing a great match in USO 2011 final and was mentally broken there. But I never seen anybody taking away credit from Djokovic because of that. However, with USO 2013 final it happens all the time and I don't know why. (not talking about your comments here, but in general)

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I don't know why Nadal doesn't get any credit for USO 2013 here. IMO that was one of the best wins of his career. Djokovic played great tennis in the second set and the first half of the third, then had a triple break point at 4-4 which Nadal saved himself with very clutch play and then somehow managed to break and take the set. I agree Djokovic went down a lot in the fourth set, but who wouldn't after losing the third set like that.

That Djokovic was a slight improvement on Roddick in the 2006 final, a win the dull lot typically doesn't care for.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Simply put, all of Djokodal three USO meetings were only great for half the match. So much for Big 3 matches being always the best by default.

 

[StrongRule]

Simply put, all of Djokodal three USO meetings were only great for half the match. So much for Big 3 matches being always the best by default.

Their rivalry is overrated in general. If we look at the level of play we will not find too many great matches. Only a few.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I said Djokovic played great in the second set and the first half of the third, which is true. Never said he played great in the first and fourth sets. Well, Nadal also was VERY far from playing a great match in USO 2011 final and was mentally broken there. But I never seen anybody taking away credit from Djokovic because of that. However, with USO 2013 final it happens all the time and I don't know why. (not talking about your comments here, but in general)

My question to you is, have you given credit to Djokovic the same way you have given credit to Nadal for USO 2013?

You even said Wimbledon 2018 Nadal choked, AO 2012 Nadal choked

Lets forget about the other matches here for a second. Tell me is there a match in which you give equally the same amount of credit to Djokovic for winning in a slam, as you do Nadal for USO 2013. If yes, please share and your reasons for it.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Their rivalry is overrated in general. If we look at the level of play we will not find too many great matches. Only a few.

All Big 3 rivalries are overrated. Djokodal is statistically the least likely to produce an epic though, highest % of straight-set matches among the three H2Hs.

 

[RF-18]

I said Djokovic played great in the second set and the first half of the third, which is true. Never said he played great in the first and fourth sets. Well, Nadal also was VERY far from playing a great match in USO 2011 final and was mentally broken there. But I never seen anybody taking away credit from Djokovic because of that. However, with USO 2013 final it happens all the time and I don't know why. (not talking about your comments here, but in general)

Nadals USO 13 Djoko win is like Djokos RG win in 15 over Nadal. One for one.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

All Big 3 rivalries are overrated. Djokodal is statistically the least likely to produce an epic though, highest % of straight-set matches among the three H2Hs.

I do agree with this to some extent, many times, one of Federer, Nadal or Djokovic simply didn't turn up.

 

[ABCD]

Nadals USO 13 Djoko win is like Djokos RG win in 15 over Nadal. One for one.

True. Nadal beat Djokovic in USO2013 fair and square and Djokovic beat Nadal in RG2015 also fair and square.

 

[StrongRule]

My question to you is, have you given credit to Djokovic the same way you have given credit to Nadal for USO 2013?

You even said Wimbledon 2018 Nadal choked, AO 2012 Nadal choked

Lets forget about the other matches here for a second. Tell me is there a match in which you give equally the same amount of credit to Djokovic for winning in a slam, as you do Nadal for USO 2013. If yes, please share and your reasons for it.

Err...What? Please bring the comment for the part in bold. I never said that, unless of course I somehow was drunk and didn't know about it. (I don't remember myself ever being drunk in my life so far)

I said many times I give Djokovic credit for his wins against Nadal in 2011-2013, even if Nadal was not at his absolute best there. Wimbledon 2018 too. I didn't say Nadal choked there, I said he missed a great chance, these are different things. Djokovic was also clutch on many points. I admitted long time ago that Djokovic is like 10000000000000 times mentally stronger than Nadal.

Now, what I don't like to hear is about bringing up 2014-2016 Nadal, especially on clay. Only an imbecile like @RF-18 can compare 2013 Djokovic to 2015 Nadal.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

True. Nadal beat Djokovic in USO2013 fair and square and Djokovic beat Nadal in RG2015 also fair and square.

All matches were won fair and square here, the thing being discussed is form, especially the mental state of mind.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Err...What? Please bring the comment. I never said that, unless of course I somehow was drunk and didn't know about it. (I don't remember myself ever being drunk in my life so far)

I said many times I give Djokovic credit for his wins against Nadal in 2011-2013, even if Nadal was not at his absolute best there. Wimbledon 2018 too. I didn't say Nadal choked, I said he missed a great chance, these are different things. Djokovic was also clutch on many points. I admitted long time ago that Djokovic is like 10000000000000 times mentally stronger than Nadal.

Now, what I don't like to hear is about bringing up 2014-2016 Nadal, especially on clay. Only an imbecile like @RF-18 can compare 2013 Djokovic to 2015 Nadal.

And that is all I am saying...Djokovic wasn't at his absolute best in many matches that he lost also to Nadal, including USO 2013, it doesn't mean Nadal doesn't get credit for the win. Do you see now, you just made my point. So not sure why you felt compelled to react in that way.

 

[Deleted member 629564]

I remember Djokovic choked against Federer in 2007 US Open final.

He was up 6-5 40-0 in the 1st set on his own serve and eventually lost the whole match 0-3. Terrible.

 

[StrongRule]

And that is all I am saying...Djokovic wasn't at his absolute best in many matches that he lost also to Nadal, including USO 2013, it doesn't mean Nadal doesn't get credit for the win. Do you see now, you just made my point. So not sure why you felt compelled to react in that way.

If you say he wasn't at his absolute best then it's fine, I fully agree with this. But from your first comment it looked like you think he was mentally out of the game from start to finish. Here I have to disagree because he was close to his best in the second set and the first half of the third set. He hardly made any errors during that time.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

If you say he wasn't at his absolute best then it's fine, I fully agree with this. But from your first comment it looked like you think he was mentally out of the game from start to finish. Here I have to disagree because he was close to his best in the second set and the first half of the third set. He hardly made any errors during that time.

No, didn't I say that Nadal gets credit for the clutch moments? That means there were tight moments that Nadal managed to get through, but that doesn't take away from the fact that for a large percentage of the match, Djokovic's head was scrambled. I saw this match less than two weeks ago again, and remember very clearly the commentating and perplexed views at the way Novak was approaching the match, and it wasn't to do with what was happening on the other side of the net.

So you can disagree all you want, but I will simply not accept that Djokovic was playing great tennis from start to finish in that match. It was two sets at best.

 

[StrongRule]

No, didn't I say that Nadal gets credit for the clutch moments? That means there were tight moments that Nadal managed to get through, but that doesn't take away from the fact that for a large percentage of the match, Djokovic's head was scrambled. I saw this match less than two weeks ago again, and remember very clearly the commentating and perplexed views at the way Novak was approaching the match, and it wasn't to do with what was happening on the other side of the net.

So you can disagree all you want, but I will simply not accept that Djokovic was playing great tennis from start to finish in that match. It was two sets at best.

And what did I say even in my previous comment? He played great in the second set and the first half of the third, decent tennis in the second half of the third set.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

And what did I say even in my previous comment? He played great in the second set and the first half of the third, decent tennis in the second half of the third set.

Look, you jumped in defensive when I cleared with you that Djokovic playing bad doesn't take away from Nadal's win, you somehow think it does, and I assured you it doesn't, so not sure what you are now trying to get out of this exchange.

 

[RS]

Their rivalry is overrated in general. If we look at the level of play we will not find too many great matches. Only a few.

Miami 2011
Montreal 2013
AO 2012
RG 2013
Madrid 2009
Wimbeldon 2018
A step down but still good or better
Hamburg 2008
Rome 2009
MC 2009
Queens 2008
Olympics 2008
RG 2008
Rome 2011
MC 2015
USO 2011
Rome 2014
USO 2010
Miami 2007
Madrid 2011
Olympics 2008
Rome 2012
It is possibly not the best but the quality is still high in the rivalry.

 

[Djokovic2011]

I said Djokovic played great in the second set and the first half of the third, which is true. Never said he played great in the first and fourth sets. Well, Nadal also was VERY far from playing a great match in USO 2011 final and was mentally broken there. But I never seen anybody taking away credit from Djokovic because of that. However, with US Open 2013 final it happens all the time and I don't know why. (not talking about your comments here, but in general)

Probably because Djokovic is the far superior HC player so it's seen as more of an anomaly whenever Nadal beats him on that surface.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Not sure whether this is due to choking but Becker in general had a little bit the habit to have loosing H2H in slams against players he led outside of slams:

Edberg 1-3 in slams (25-10 in overall!!)
Ivanisevic 1-2 in slams (10-9 overall)
Rafter 0-1 in slams (2-1 overall)
McEnroe 0-1 in slams (8-2 overall!!)
Wilander 0-3 in slams (7-3 overall !!!!! all his losses here came at slams

As for Djokovic, other than Nadal I can only think of Stan as a player who bothers him way more at slams than outside. Then again. Stan only seems to peak for slams anyways.