Djokovic Era - Who has he "hurt the most" - Federer, Murray, Nadal

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I agree 100% about Federer. Djokovic could not have hurt Federer the most when Federer owns the important records, that doesn't make sense. But I disagree with you about Nadal. Djokovic prevented Nadal from reaching Federer's slam count and he completely obliterated him in 2011 and continues to do so today. Forget about Murray. Murray isn't in the same league with the other three ATGs, sorry. The correct answer is Nadal.

Sorry, but I won't forget about Murray. The OP asked about him as well as the other 2 and so I will answer. It doesn't matter that he isn't in the same ballpark achievements-wise, he has been prevented from winning more Slams and getting closer to their level by Djokovic. Federer is still the Slam leader and Nadal is still the King of Roland Garros, their achievements are currently set in stone. Nothing Djokovic has done has hurt their legacies as much as Djokovic has potentially hurt Murray's. Without any doubt, he has caused more damage to Murray's career than he has ever been able to do to the other 2!
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Fair points.

If you add YE#1, YEC and Slams together you get these results:

Federer - 28
Djokovic - 19
Nadal - 17



Murray - 2
Wawrinka - 2

Davydenko -1

So, Murray is twice as good as Davydenko but a minimum of 8 times worse than any of the Big Three.

It's a brutal system but the most vital for encapsulating greatness.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
Sorry, but I won't forget about Murray. The OP asked about him as well as the other 2 and so I will answer. It doesn't matter that he isn't in the same ballpark achievements-wise, he has been prevented from winning more Slams and getting closer to their level by Djokovic. Federer is still the Slam leader and Nadal is still the King of Roland Garros, their achievements are currently set in stone. Nothing Djokovic has done has hurt their legacies as much as Djokovic has potentially hurt Murray's. Without any doubt, he has caused more damage to Murray's career than he has ever been able to do to the other 2!

You have a point. Three AO finals, that has got to hurt.
 

xFedal

Legend
Fair points.

If you add YE#1, YEC and Slams together you get these results:

Federer - 28
Djokovic - 19
Nadal - 17



Murray - 2
Wawrinka - 2

Davydenko -1

So, Murray is twice as good as Davydenko but a minimum of 8 times worse than any of the Big Three.

It's a brutal system but the most vital for encapsulating greatness.
I like your system. Novak can easily get 23 by end of Next year. If he repeats this year he will be at 25.
 

mavsman149

Hall of Fame
Fair points.

If you add YE#1, YEC and Slams together you get these results:

Federer - 28
Djokovic - 19
Nadal - 17



Murray - 2
Wawrinka - 2

Davydenko -1

So, Murray is twice as good as Davydenko but a minimum of 8 times worse than any of the Big Three.

It's a brutal system but the most vital for encapsulating greatness.

The descending size font got me excited for Star Wars next month.....that is all
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
kevin-in-disbelief-gif.gif

He still has 17 Slams and more titles. Nothing Djokovic has done so far has affected these particular records in any way.
 
He still has 17 Slams and more titles. Nothing Djokovic has done so far has affected these particular records in any way.

I see where you are going there but I still have to disagree. I mean by that logic we could say Nadal hasnt hurt Federer's career any too. :lol:
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I see where you are going there but I still have to disagree. I mean by that logic we could say Nadal hasnt hurt Federer's career any too. :lol:

Maybe I'm overstating the case by saying they haven't been hurt at all. I just mean that they haven't been hurt by him as much as Murray potentially has.
 

SpicyCurry1990

Hall of Fame
Fair points.

If you add YE#1, YEC and Slams together you get these results:

Federer - 28
Djokovic - 19
Nadal - 17



Murray - 2
Wawrinka - 2

Davydenko -1

So, Murray is twice as good as Davydenko but a minimum of 8 times worse than any of the Big Three.

It's a brutal system but the most vital for encapsulating greatness.

This is unrelated to the topic, but your bolded comment caught my interest. I have often felt that a ratio of slams was a better encapsulation of relative greatness over the raw difference. I came to that conclusion based effectively on how many players each successive slam discriminates you from (using just open era):

1 slam winners - 54 (infinitely better than the thousands to win 0)
2 slam winners - 30 (55% of 1 slam winners, ratio = 1:2 (50%))
3 slam winners - 20 (66% of 2 slam winners, ratio = 2:3(66%))
4 slam winners - 17 (85% of 3 slam winners, ratio = 3:4(75%))
5 slam winners - 14 (82% of 4 slam winners, ratio = 4:5(80%))
6 slam winners - 12 (85% of 5 slam winners, ratio = 5:6 (83%))
7 slam winners - 10 (83% of 6 slam winners, ratio = 6:7 (85%))
8 slam winners - 8 (80% of 7 slam winners, ratio = 7:8 (87%))
9+ slam winners - 5 (The outliers)

Effectively as you win more slams, each successive slam has diminishing returns on value because it discriminates you from less and less people. Once you hit the 9+ mark you are looking at outliers where slam totals become very difficult to gauge proper discrimination because at that point you are dealing with the greatest ever and how many exactly they ended up on becomes an amalgamation of so many other factors (what other outliers played simultaneously and for how long being chief among them).

Using this type of system you would effectively say things like:
The gap between Fed(#1) and Agassi(#6-8) is about equal to the gap between Agassi(#8) and Courier(#14-17)
as opposed to the gap between Fed and Agassi being greater than the gap between Agassi and me in the straight difference system used by most.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
I think Nadal and Federer would gain more directly from not having Djokovic around, but Federer's standing might be unchanged with Djokovic around, whereas there was a chance that Djokovic denied Nadal GOATdom (though I do not believe this). But what of Murray? He's far less sure to win than Federer and Nadal are without Djokovic in the way, I'd wager. Murray would end up in more battles with Federer and Nadal and just lose most of the time anyway.

Hurt the most in terms of net gain: Fed

Hurt the most in terms of how their career would have otherwise been perceived: Hard to say but argument for Nadal if one believes he'd have otherwise become the greatest of the era.

Least hurt: Murray, as he'd be far less likely to convert chances anyway.
 

Charlemagne

Hall of Fame
He still has 17 Slams and more titles. Nothing Djokovic has done so far has affected these particular records in any way.
So true. That's why "hurt" is so relative. Fed has more winners in the vault so to speak, than any male tennis player. Even beyond that is his affect on the game of tennis as a whole. No one can ever take that away, so I think it's silly that ppl think Novak hurt Fed. In a sense yeah, Fed would have more titles, but what else does the man really have to prove? If he wins 18 or 19 or even 20... What more can that do for his record? I think the fact that he's competing at such a high level at 34 has more than solidified the general consensus that he is in fact the greatest male tennis player of all time. I think it's beyond debate- with all due respect to Rafael who I admire greatly. If you're being objective, you have to conclude that the Fed Nole matchup is a classic case of one player being in their prime, and the other player NOT being in theirs.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
This is unrelated to the topic, but your bolded comment caught my interest. I have often felt that a ratio of slams was a better encapsulation of relative greatness over the raw difference. I came to that conclusion based effectively on how many players each successive slam discriminates you from (using just open era):

1 slam winners - 54 (infinitely better than the thousands to win 0)
2 slam winners - 30 (55% of 1 slam winners, ratio = 1:2 (50%))
3 slam winners - 20 (66% of 2 slam winners, ratio = 2:3(66%))
4 slam winners - 17 (85% of 3 slam winners, ratio = 3:4(75%))
5 slam winners - 14 (82% of 4 slam winners, ratio = 4:5(80%))
6 slam winners - 12 (85% of 5 slam winners, ratio = 5:6 (83%))
7 slam winners - 10 (83% of 6 slam winners, ratio = 6:7 (85%))
8 slam winners - 8 (80% of 7 slam winners, ratio = 7:8 (87%))
9+ slam winners - 5 (The outliers)

Effectively as you win more slams, each successive slam has diminishing returns on value because it discriminates you from less and less people. Once you hit the 9+ mark you are looking at outliers where slam totals become very difficult to gauge proper discrimination because at that point you are dealing with the greatest ever and how many exactly they ended up on becomes an amalgamation of so many other factors (what other outliers played simultaneously and for how long being chief among them).

Using this type of system you would effectively say things like:
The gap between Fed(#1) and Agassi(#6-8) is about equal to the gap between Agassi(#8) and Courier(#14-17)
as opposed to the gap between Fed and Agassi being greater than the gap between Agassi and me in the straight difference system used by most.

It's reasonable and logical apart from the assertion that it becomes difficult to gauge proper discrimination because one is dealing with a small number of outliers. The numbers create a shield which creates such an illusory perception (in that the numbers are so low), so you're not wrong in saying it, but ultimately I don't think any amount of luck over a very long career would conspire for a difference of say 9 Slams vs 15 (with all things being more or less equal, meaning assume the players in question would be from the same era). In other words, I'm not going to consider players who have won 9+ Slams as equally good by default because they've all hit a sort of virtual ceiling. However, there are exceptions and I like to look at things on a case by case basis really and exceptions should be identified.

See what you think of the following...

One thing I have thought before is that Slam finals would be more indicative of greatness than wins, which sounds absurd but it's something I've thought about quite a lot. It removes the *luck* factor of not converting as many Slam finals because one's typical opposition has been unusually tough. How bad is Djokovic's Slam conversion rate really when we consider his opposition?

It removes some of the lack of clarity at the lower end also in terms of Slam victories. Wawrinka = Murray but in reality Murray >> Wawrinka.

For the Open Era:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...is_records#Most_singles_finals_.28Open_Era.29
 
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SpicyCurry1990

Hall of Fame
It's reasonable and logical apart from the assertion that it becomes difficult to gauge proper discrimination because one is dealing with a small number of outliers. The numbers create a shield which creates such an illusory perception (in that the numbers are so low), so you're not wrong in saying it, but ultimately I don't think any amount of luck over a very long career would conspire for a difference of say 9 Slams vs 15 (with all things being more or less equal, meaning assume the players in question would be from the same era). In other words, I'm not going to consider players who have won 9+ Slams as equally good by default because they've all hit a sort of virtual ceiling. However, there are exceptions and I like to look at things on a case by case basis really and exceptions should be identified.

Oh absolutely. I think I misrepresented my point. I wasn't saying all at 9+ Should be considered equal. I was saying by using my ratio system, you make it so that all 9+ winners are much closer than a straight difference system. Since it might be hard to properly discriminate between them, you don't get what appears to be wide gaps with a straight difference system, when the difference in reality is not all that great.

At 9 slams a player would be closer in greatness to Federer than a 1 slam winner is to a 2 slam winner. I think that's actually fairly accurate and much more so than saying the gap b/w Fed and 9 is equal to the 9 and the 1 slam wonder.

Fed: Nadal gap = Laver:Rosewall (open era only) gap as opposed to equaling the gap between Ashe and Ferrer.

See what you think of the following...

One thing I have thought before is that Slam finals would be more indicative of greatness than wins, which sounds absurd but it's something I've thought about quite a lot. It removes the *luck* factor of not converting as many Slam finals because one's typical opposition has been unusually tough. How bad is Djokovic's Slam conversion rate really when we consider his opposition?

It removes some of the lack of clarity at the lower end also in terms of Slam victories. Wawrinka = Murray but in reality Murray >> Wawrinka.

For the Open Era:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...is_records#Most_singles_finals_.28Open_Era.29

Its an interesting consideration for sure. I've actually brought this up before many times on this forum but (ironically) not in consideration for Djokovic, but more so for Murray. People think it asinine to suggest he might be a Becker/Edberg/Wilander level player, but by the time he hangs up it, he will likely equal them in slam finals + masters titles (the latter he is already above Wilander and Edberg) and has been losing his finals only to two 10+ slam winners whereas those 3 mainly faced themselves and Lendl (with some early Sampras sprinkled in as well). Your system would reflect my sentiment.

BUT in doing that you remove all value for clutch performance which IS an element of greatness to consider as well. Based on that you would say Lendl>Sampras. Pete should be rewarded for sealing the deal so often. I think it merits more of a case by case basis consideration like you said above in regards to Novak's competition.

The interesting thing to me though is, depending on what happens with Novak from here on out, there is still a chance that Fed/Nadal/Novak wind up 1-2-3 in slams won despite facing off against each other and all stealing slams from each other. Logic should dictate all of them should have been diminished below Sampras. So either

A) Maybe it hasn't made that much of a difference really
B) In reality all 3 of them are WELL above Sampras and they have been diminished to around his level
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Oh absolutely. I think I misrepresented my point. I wasn't saying all at 9+ Should be considered equal. I was saying by using my ratio system, you make it so that all 9+ winners are much closer than a straight difference system. Since it might be hard to properly discriminate between them, you don't get what appears to be wide gaps with a straight difference system, when the difference in reality is not all that great.

At 9 slams a player would be closer in greatness to Federer than a 1 slam winner is to a 2 slam winner. I think that's actually fairly accurate and much more so than saying the gap b/w Fed and 9 is equal to the 9 and the 1 slam wonder.

Fed: Nadal gap = Laver:Rosewall (open era only) gap as opposed to equaling the gap between Ashe and Ferrer.



Its an interesting consideration for sure. I've actually brought this up before many times on this forum but (ironically) not in consideration for Djokovic, but more so for Murray. People think it asinine to suggest he might be a Becker/Edberg/Wilander level player, but by the time he hangs up it, he will likely equal them in slam finals + masters titles (the latter he is already above Wilander and Edberg) and has been losing his finals only to two 10+ slam winners whereas those 3 mainly faced themselves and Lendl (with some early Sampras sprinkled in as well). Your system would reflect my sentiment.

BUT in doing that you remove all value for clutch performance which IS an element of greatness to consider as well. Based on that you would say Lendl>Sampras. Pete should be rewarded for sealing the deal so often. I think it merits more of a case by case basis consideration like you said above in regards to Novak's competition.

The interesting thing to me though is, depending on what happens with Novak from here on out, there is still a chance that Fed/Nadal/Novak wind up 1-2-3 in slams won despite facing off against each other and all stealing slams from each other. Logic should dictate all of them should have been diminished below Sampras. So either

A) Maybe it hasn't made that much of a difference really
B) In reality all 3 of them are WELL above Sampras and they have been diminished to around his level

Absolutely. A simple but effective way to look at it is to just go by rank, which is basically what your system showcases in a roundabout way anyway.

So Open Era (not being precise here):

1. Federer - 17 Slams
..
..
6. Lendl - 8 Slams

..
..
15. Courier - 4 Slams

..
..
..

40. Del Potro - 1 Slam.

Those placements might not be quite right but I think the point is clear: 17-8-4-1 but with ranking gaps of 1-6-15-40.


**

Yes, that is a problem, and my first thought when making the post was the Sampras-Lendl question. It could serve as a good base point but of course one then has to dig deeper. Lendl dealt with many fantastic players though.

I've always thought of Murray as being a notch below Edberg, Becker and Wilander... just a smidgen. So far, the finals stats and career stats kinda back that up, but I've also considered that he's not a notch below but actually on par (never thought superior). I do think Murray superior to Courier, for example, more or less based on his record of reaching Slam finals. Where it gets complicated is judging players also by rank. Murray is punished by not reaching #1, but look at the era he's had to contend with.

As for your last points, I tend to think that the Trifecta are just that good. I do not find the homogeneity argument to be convincing and see it as a double-edged sword. I think it damages the players who might win 0-2 Slams, but not the best. It has made it easier to dominate across surfaces but at the same time if a dominant player then gets usurped, they lose the edge more or less everywhere and have no fortress to depend on. All greats are a product of their time and Sampras actually benefited from the more polarised conditions of his day. That's to say that he'd do worse today in these more homogeneous conditions. The caveat of course would be that if the court conditions happened to trend in the favour of quick court homogeneity, then Sampras would have been even more dominant. For those who moan about the condition similarities these days, I also think that there being 3 "tennis anomalies" for most of the era as compared to 2 for most of Sampras' is a very big deal. I don't expect what Fedalovic have done to be the norm and don't look to blame the current trends regarding playing conditions on the tour. I just believe we're in a very top heavy era with multiple GOATs.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
I should add though that I treat #1 accolades very seriously, and although Murray's been hard done by, there's no excuse at the pinnacle that satisfies me between Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. Nadal's career tempi is one that lends itself to brilliance over 2 weeks and even sustained brilliance over a few months, but typically not the consistent excellence that Federer and Djokovic bring that allow for such terrific world rank #1 accolades. The closest Nadal got was 2010-2011 but his level was outdone by a new kid on the block - simple as that.

Right now, Sampras and Federer have great arguments regarding the Majors and #1 accolades. Nadal lacks the #1 accolades and probably will do forever. Djokovic lacks the Majors but is likely to garner them and have amazing achievements in both areas which is expect of the highest greats. In other words, I see it as likely that from this era, Federer and Djokovic will have the main bases for tennis greatness covered with something to spare, but Nadal will always be lacking relatively to the very greatest regarding #1 achievements.

Further, at some stage the great players of the Open Era do have an excuse. Current players have 4 obvious Majors to go at per year, which was not the case for Connors, Borg or even McEnroe. I'm only really speaking of the time period where the prestige and importance of the 4 current Majors is clear. In using finals as another barometer of greatness, I'd need to account and adjust for the level of opportunity throughout the OE.
 
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SpicyCurry1990

Hall of Fame
Absolutely. A simple but effective way to look at it is to just go by rank, which is basically what your system showcases in a roundabout way anyway.

Those placements might not be quite right but I think the point is clear: 17-8-4-1 but with ranking gaps of 1-6-15-40.

Ya thats basically what it does (with delineations of separation like at say 30/31, 20/21 etc). The roundaboutness of it I think sheds light on why its a reasonable system though (in regards to the ratios lining up fairly well with the number of players it discriminates from throughout history).

Yes, that is a problem, and my first thought when making the post was the Sampras-Lendl question. It could serve as a good base point but of course one then has to dig deeper. Lendl dealt with many fantastic players though.

Ya its a good base point I think. No question Lendl had a lot of tough matches, but you also have to consider some of his wins made up for that. He got Pernfors, Mecir, Mecir in 3 of his wins and a retirement from Edberg (after losing the 1st set) in a 4th (during a year Edberg was #1). He also blew a shot vs Pat Cash at a reasonable Wimbledon in 87.

I've always thought of Murray as being a notch below Edberg, Becker and Wilander... just a smidgen. So far, the finals stats and career stats kinda back that up, but I've also considered that he's not a notch below but actually on par (never thought superior). I do think Murray superior to Courier, for example, more or less based on his record of reaching Slam finals. Where it gets complicated is judging players also by rank. Murray is punished by not reaching #1, but look at the era he's had to contend with.

Right, I've felt the same way. Like for instance if you swapped one of those 3 and Murray's eras I think Murray gets to #1 and adds a few more slams and the one you swapped probably doesn't and loses slams. Wilander and Becker only got to 20 and 13 weeks at #1 anyways. Edberg had many more but he was sort of a transitionary #1 between Lendl and Sampras.

As for your last points, I tend to think that the Trifecta are just that good. I do not find the homogeneity argument to be convincing and see it as a double-edged sword. I think it damages the players who might win 0-2 Slams, but not the best. It has made it easier to dominate across surfaces but at the same time if a dominant player then gets usurped, they lose the edge more or less everywhere and have no fortress to depend on. All greats are a product of their time and Sampras actually benefited from the more polarised conditions of his day. That's to say that he'd do worse today in these more homogeneous conditions. The caveat of course would be that if the court conditions happened to trend in the favour of quick court homogeneity, then Sampras would have been even more dominant. For those who moan about the condition similarities these days, I also think that there being 3 "tennis anomalies" for most of the era as compared to 2 for most of Sampras' is a very big deal. I don't expect what Fedalovic have done to be the norm and don't look to blame the current trends regarding playing conditions on the tour. I just believe we're in a very top heavy era with multiple GOATs.

I agree, I've said this before. I think all 3 have been shorted compared to Sampras, but Fed has gotten benefit over Nadal/Djoker too. Prior to the 31 top 10 wins this year from Nole, the record was 24 shared by Djokovic 2012, Djokovic 2013, Nadal 2013. 12-13 was insanity levels of competition. The season ATP points accumulated by Nole's 1 slam years those seasons were outrageous. His 2013 is above Nadal 08/Fed 09. His 2012 is even above Fed 04/Fed 05/Nadal 10.

Further comparison: Fed statistically performed better at Wimbledon, the USO, and the WTF in the pre-finals in 2015 than 2005 and he finished 2015 with the same number of top 10 wins as 2005.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Ya thats basically what it does (with delineations of separation like at say 30/31, 20/21 etc). The roundaboutness of it I think sheds light on why its a reasonable system though (in regards to the ratios lining up fairly well with the number of players it discriminates from throughout history).



Ya its a good base point I think. No question Lendl had a lot of tough matches, but you also have to consider some of his wins made up for that. He got Pernfors, Mecir, Mecir in 3 of his wins and a retirement from Edberg (after losing the 1st set) in a 4th (during a year Edberg was #1). He also blew a shot vs Pat Cash at a reasonable Wimbledon in 87.



Right, I've felt the same way. Like for instance if you swapped one of those 3 and Murray's eras I think Murray gets to #1 and adds a few more slams and the one you swapped probably doesn't and loses slams. Wilander and Becker only got to 20 and 13 weeks at #1 anyways. Edberg had many more but he was sort of a transitionary #1 between Lendl and Sampras.



I agree, I've said this before. I think all 3 have been shorted compared to Sampras, but Fed has gotten benefit over Nadal/Djoker too. Prior to the 31 top 10 wins this year from Nole, the record was 24 shared by Djokovic 2012, Djokovic 2013, Nadal 2013. 12-13 was insanity levels of competition. The season ATP points accumulated by Nole's 1 slam years those seasons were outrageous. His 2013 is above Nadal 08/Fed 09. His 2012 is even above Fed 04/Fed 05/Nadal 10.

Further comparison: Fed statistically performed better at Wimbledon, the USO, and the WTF in the pre-finals in 2015 than 2005 and he finished 2015 with the same number of top 10 wins as 2005.

Yep on all the non non magenta stuff.. just to let you know I've read it and concur.

**

There's a lot of complicated stuff here. For example, Djokovic's record against the top 10 is unreal this year, but I don't think it necessarily means he's had it tougher this year than he had it in say 2011 - I'd say he hasn't. There is a sterility to the tour right now which has made the top rankings very stable and therefore results more predictable. If a new wave of very talented young players came through in 2016-2017, Djokovic could be just as impressive as he was this year and win 3 Slams etc. but not get anywhere close to 31 top-ten wins due to the state of flux that such an uprising would stir on the tour, where things are less stable and it's far more likely for the lower ranked rising players to play above rank and for those in the top 10, definitively on the way down and finally being shoved aside by new talents, to be playing below rank. In short, the more stable and stagnant the tour, the more chances one is going to get to defeat a top-ten. Make no mistake though, I do not think this was a weak year. The year was fine and Federer provided ample competition, and Stan rocked Djokovic's world at the French Open.

2011-2013 were strong years.. especially 2012 for reasons I've shared with you before, but 2011 and 2013 are noteworthy for featuring two peaking all-time greats, with it being 1-1 in terms of who won those battles. Djokovic has overall had more difficult years than Federer during his peak period if we 2011 and 2004 as starting points. He was punished in that he lost out on YE#1 one year and also won less Slams than he could have done. Going by a finals system, he's at least somewhat compensated. If 2012 and 2013 were a bit weaker, he could have won 2-3 Slams in those years. However, I do believe his 2015 iteration is the best iteration, and is better mentally, strategically and tactically than the Djokovic who played in 2012-2013, and I even prefer 2015 over 2011, even though I think Nadal was a slightly more live hurdle to get past than Federer was in 2015.

As for Federer in 2015, clearly he's at a very high level otherwise he wouldn't have reached the last 3 biggest available tournament finals consecutively. I don't know much about the stats but I'll take your word for it.

For me the explanation is simple. Strategically, Djokovic has mastered his key rivals this year to an extent rarely before seen. Federer does have some issues compared to his pomp, mainly psychological, but he's clearly adapted as he's gotten older and was able to produce prime tennis this year at 3 of the 5 biggest events. In which case, why couldn't he beat Djokovic?

1. Djokovic produced a ridiculous year of tennis and Federer needed to be GOATing in the matches to compete.
2. Djokovic with Becker is waaaaaaay more ready on a strategic and tactical level for matches. He's out-prepared Federer, Murray and Nadal this year by a huge margin. He's mastered the match-ups.
3. As a follow on, Federer was basically as good as Djokovic this year at Wimbledon and the US Open or better but when it came to the specific match-up, Djokovic had the key.
4. This isn't to say Federer isn't disadvantaged regardless of the above points and stats before the big finals. There's something to be said for reaching the peak, descending and then trying to climb it again as opposed to soaring at the highest peak right in the middle of one's pomp on a psychological level.
5. So basically, Federer = Djokovic in terms of tennis against the field at Wimbledon and US Open if we exclude how they do against each other.

Harking back to my opening point:

Top ten wins can be deceiving. While I tout them often on this board and do feel they are a useful representation in many ways of one's ability to peak in a match, the current climate dictates that Djokovic playing this well would achieve 31 wins against top-ten opposition. Nonetheless, this isn't a knock on Djokovic but just a point that it doesn't alone begin to dictate the strength of a year.

**

On why Nadal was a tougher hurdle than Federer.

Nadal was at the top of his game and supremely confident, and Djokovic took that version of Nadal, in full 2010 mode, made him question himself and his game and surpassed his level.

It's different with Federer in 2015, whose pure tennis has been outstanding at 2 of the 4 Slams, but psychologically his situation is drastically different, and unfortunately for Federer that has mattered, and his problems were further compounded by Djokovic's outstanding preparation.

TL;DR

Djokovic has had it tougher so far and is due a regression to the mean, which, much to the chagrin of many Fedal fans, might be happening. Lost out on some Slams through stiff comp.

Djokovic in 2015 was too good.. Djokovic is on the level of former highest all-time greats, therefore Djokovic wins unless a rival produces more or less their best ever year also, so for example as happened in 2011 and 2013.

Top-ten wins don't tell us everything, though they are useful.
 
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weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
He still has 17 Slams and more titles. Nothing Djokovic has done so far has affected these particular records in any way.

Well how is he supposed to take away from what he has already done? By that idiotic definition, no Tennis player has ever hurt another. Are you really so dense that you don't understand that he has hurt him by standing directly in between many more titles?
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Just wanted to say Ill reply tomorrow as need to go now, so I don't leave you hanging. I also still owe NATF a post at some point about Murray vs Hewitt that I was putting off so will probably do that first. Good talk.

Sure thing. Until next time.
 
Maybe I'm overstating the case by saying they haven't been hurt at all. I just mean that they haven't been hurt by him as much as Murray potentially has.

I can see your reasoning. However I think Murray has been hurt more by the joint big 3 effect than any 1 individual. Djokovic's slam damage is pretty much exclusively the Australian Open in fact.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Well how is he supposed to take away from what he has already done?

What are you talking about? Federer won many of those titles with Djokovic in the draw. Djokovic could have hurt him further by taking some of those titles away from him

By that idiotic definition, no Tennis player has ever hurt another. Are you really so dense that you don't understand that he has hurt him by standing directly in between many more titles?

But it's all relative, isn't it? Federer still has more Slam titles than anybody else. Any hurt Djokovic may have caused him has not prevented that, at least so far.
 

Charlemagne

Hall of Fame
Well how is he supposed to take away from what he has already done? By that idiotic definition, no Tennis player has ever hurt another. Are you really so dense that you don't understand that he has hurt him by standing directly in between many more titles?

Don't be mean. All Mainad is saying is Fed has achieved more than any male tennis player, and those achievements are in a vault, and no one can take away or diminish what he has already accomplished.
 

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
Don't be mean. All Mainad is saying is Fed has achieved more than any male tennis player, and those achievements are in a vault, and no one can take away or diminish what he has already accomplished.

That's immaterial in this conversation. No one has lost out on more titles directly because of Nole than Roger. Thus he has hurt him the most. Pretty simple really and the question of who has he hurt most is a simple one. It can't be Nadal or Murray because I don't think they would be closer to Roger or any other place of significance without Novak, as Roger would have benefitted most from his absence.
 

Omega_7000

Legend
A lot of folks have some double standards here. So it's not ok for Federer to go deep in to tournaments and keep losing to Djokovic but it is ok for Nadal to lose early and skip majors.
 
Let's see
At WTF: Fed since Fed was the dominant WTF player when Djoko took over: 3 finals/4 matches since 2012 won over Fed. Very clear-cut change of guard there.
At AO: Murray: 4 losses to Djoko, 3 of them in final, that has got to hurt
At RG: Djoko is the one who got hurt there. Big time. By Nadal who has kept pummeling him before and after 2011. 6 times in all.
At W: Fed again. Last 2 consecutive years, desperate to win 1 last W. Stopped in final by Djoko both times.
USO: Fed redux. It started well at USO for Fed but since 2010, he hasn't been able to pass the Djoko hurdle (3 losses, 0 win)

Conclusion: and the loser is... Fed of course. Djoko has been in his way for 3 WTF finals, 2 W finals and 3 USO.
You have to understand that despite the numbers of the overall head to head, Djoko is being in Fed's way much more than Nadal. That's because Nadal's (prefered) territory was not the same as Fed's. Which means that Fed was mostly not threatened by Nadal at WTF, lost only 1 match to him at W and avoided him altogether at USO. Very different from Djoko who stomped right on Fed's ground (hard court slams, WTF and W).

no.....

if nole 2011 would never raised, nadal would win 3 gs that year!!! he would surprassed federer´s record and all this final than nole won over roger wouldn´t never exist, because nadal would beated roger and destroy roger´s head.

djokovic is saving the record of federer
 

Fedalforever

Semi-Pro
You're absolutely right about grass. In hard court slams, they're 7 to 9 and that's close (currently all 4 slams have equal value, so USO/AO doesn't make a difference. Djoko has won as many AO titles as Fed has won USO and what's cooler about Djoko's feat is that the 5 at AO is an absolute record whereas Fed's 5 at USO is not.)
You not only lack integrity but also the ability to think. The reason Djokovic's 5 at AO is a record is because most players skipped the Aus Open back in the day(not to mention how he really should be on 4 as he cheated Wawrinka out of AO 2013 but anyway). Fed has won HC slams on 3 different surfaces, faker only 2.
 

WYK

Hall of Fame

Federer has a boatload of wins and is in his waning years(well, waning for Federer, at least) as Djoko is firing up. Nadal and slower courts with heavier balls hurt Federer far more than the Djock. In fact, we could probably blame the courts and the balls more than anything. Without those, Nadal would still be playing most of his matches in France.
 

Fedalforever

Semi-Pro
Well, if Murray is such a 'mug' how come he could even benefit from a 'choking' Djokovic? Mugs don't benefit from anything because they are mugs no matter how much their opponent may be trying to choke.

In trying to insult and disrespect Murray (such a familiar pastime on here) you merely make yourself look illogical and stupid! :rolleyes:
Mugs can benefit from choking. Just like KAndy benefitted from Murray's choking at USO(mug vs mug). It is not illogical at all. I wouldn't expect you to have a reasonable view on Murray. That's like expecting victorp, Chico, tennisfan3/yoda, spicycurry3, xfedal to talk sense when it comes to n0le.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Mugs can benefit from choking. Just like KAndy benefitted from Murray's choking at USO(mug vs mug). It is not illogical at all. I wouldn't expect you to have a reasonable view on Murray. That's like expecting victorp, Chico, tennisfan3/yoda, spicycurry3, xfedal to talk sense when it comes to n0le.

That's strange because my views on Murray are about a 1,000 times more realistic than your's are. You need to learn that just because you don't like a player it doesn't necessarily mean they are bad ones. Now I get that you clearly don't like Murray (and don't even try to say otherwise or you wouldn't be spouting such disrespectful rubbish about him) but you shouldn't let that cloud your judgement and spout biased, self-serving nonsense just because you can't manage to come to terms with the fact that he won 2 Slams and, on each occasion, beat a mult-Grand Slam champion in order to do. If that makes him a 'mug' in your book, then I shudder to think what your views are on the entire rest of the tour not named Federer, Nadal or Djokovic. But, then again, rational and unbiased opinion doesn't seem to be your forte so I can't say I would be surprised.
 

Fedalforever

Semi-Pro
That's strange because my views on Murray are about a 1,000 times more realistic than your's are. You need to learn that just because you don't like a player it doesn't necessarily mean they are bad ones. Now I get that you clearly don't like Murray (and don't even try to say otherwise or you wouldn't be spouting such disrespectful rubbish about him) but you shouldn't let that cloud your judgement and spout biased, self-serving nonsense just because you can't manage to come to terms with the fact that he won 2 Slams and, on each occasion, beat a mult-Grand Slam champion in order to do. If that makes him a 'mug' in your book, then I shudder to think what your views are on the entire rest of the tour not named Federer, Nadal or Djokovic. But, then again, rational and unbiased opinion doesn't seem to be your forte so I can't say I would be surprised.
Murray got lucky...it happens. He's basically a David Ferrer with more luck. A pusher who has defeated Djokovic once since Wimbledon 2013 in a million tries.....and who got breadsticked by 2015dal on indoor HC LOL Even young Borna spanked him.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Murray got lucky...it happens. He's basically a David Ferrer with more luck. A pusher who has defeated Djokovic once since Wimbledon 2013 in a million tries.....and who got breadsticked by 2015dal on indoor HC LOL Even young Borna spanked him.

Lol...2 Slams, 6 more finals, 11 Masters titles, Olympic gold (beating Djokovic and Federer back to back) and 15 more titles....no-one gets THAT lucky! Not even a half-way decent attempt to troll. You're just a hater and you've been exposed. You're clearly not worth wasting time trying to have a rational discussion with and so.......

.......cheerio!
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
And where has it gotten Fed??? Exactly the same place as Murray: Cincy title/Canada title.
Your contempt for Murray is confounding me. I thought you reserved it for Djoko. But apparently, it's just for anyone not named Fed. People are trying to tell you that points don't lie and that Murray earned the right to that 2nd spot and he didn't just earn it through consistency since he won more tier 1 than Fed. Not talking about finals there, talking about titles.
Let it go. Fed is a great player but Murray's season can compare to Fed's and certainly doesn't deserve your venom. Whatever the minor differences, Murray, Fed and Wawa are the only 3 players who beat Djoko this year in big events. Fed should get credit and Murray/Wawa shouldn't? In the name of what? Fed fanboyism?

Where has it gotten Fed? It's gotten Fed to two slam finals and 1 WTF final which places him above Murray despite what the rankings say. And you know what, more people including tennis analysts agree with me. I'll take their word over over-zealous fans on a tennis forum. Here is the latest rating of all players this year from tennis.com:

2. Roger Federer (Previous: 7)
Remember this: Federer is 34. And he’s been the second-best men’s player this season, regardless of what the rankings say. The Swiss wasn’t far off from winning an 18th major, and making the final in London was confirmation of his superb year.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2015/11/tenniscom-top-25-november-25/56886/#.VlcUZXarTIU

So Vero, please take you "tier 1" made up agenda-based nonsense elsewhere. In the real tennis world, there can be no dispute that Federer has been second consistent best at the tournaments which matter most this year and in terms of being the ONLY other player who was remotely competitive with Djokovic. I have absolutely no bone to pick with Murray and I have no bone to pick with Djokovic. Djokovic is by far the best player this year and if you read my posts prior to the WTF final, I said that Djokovic was going to beat Federer. In that match-up in big finals outside of places like Cinci and Shanghai, Djokovic has been the better player for a few years. When I said that, it upset some Fed fans but I don't mince words and I tell the truth whether I like a particular player or not. I don't respect fanatics of any player including Fed fanatics.
 

Pagoo

G.O.A.T.
Where has it gotten Fed? It's gotten Fed to two slam finals and 1 WTF final which places him above Murray despite what the rankings say. And you know what, more people including tennis analysts agree with me. I'll take their word over over-zealous fans on a tennis forum. Here is the latest rating of all players this year from tennis.com:



http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2015/11/tenniscom-top-25-november-25/56886/#.VlcUZXarTIU

So Vero, please take you "tier 1" made up agenda-based nonsense elsewhere. In the real tennis world, there can be no dispute that Federer has been second consistent best at the tournaments which matter most this year and in terms of being the ONLY other player who was remotely competitive with Djokovic. I have absolutely no bone to pick with Murray and I have no bone to pick with Djokovic. Djokovic is by far the best player this year and if you read my posts prior to the WTF final, I said that Djokovic was going to beat Federer. In that match-up in big finals outside of places like Cinci and Shanghai, Djokovic has been the better player for a few years. When I said that, it upset some Fed fans but I don't mince words and I tell the truth whether I like a particular player or not. I don't respect fanatics of any player including Fed fanatics.

She's a big joke at this point. Murray is a paper number 2 for all intents and purpose. Unfortunately, Federer is a headcase in important moments. It would be nice if he learnt something and got smart in 2016.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
She's a big joke at this point. Murray is a paper number 2 for all intents and purpose. Unfortunately, Federer is a headcase in important moments. It would be nice if he learnt something and got smart in 2016.

You can't reason with her because she has some sort of serious mental problem with respect to Federer and she isn't the only fan who has this type of issue. She creates this "tier 1" crap in order to elevate the players she likes but in the meantime when you look at the biggest events(slams and the WTF) you would have to put either Wawrinka as the next best player to Djokovic because Wawrinka has won 1 slam and defeated Djokovic when it mattered most at the FO or you could argue that Federer is the next best player to Djokovic because Federer has been more consistent than Wawrinka and has made two slam finals and 1 WTF final. It's hard to put Murray in at number two or three despite the rankings when he hasn't won a slam like Wawrinka or hasn't made two slam finals and 1 WTF final like Federer. But Vero will continue on with Murray has won his two "tier 1" titles. She's a lost cause. :rolleyes:
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Federer won 4 titles in 2009 I think. He was not a TOP TOP TOP TOP TOP player for most of the season. Nadal injury gave him another life.

Nadal was gone in R4 at his most beloved slam and didn't participate in Wimby which he was 3 time finalist and defending champ. Still year end point difference was 1300 pts between Fed and Rafa.

Great for Fed to be consistent and reach all four slam finals. Because before Madrid, he was looking like 4th best player in the world. That's how quickly things can change.

Same thing can be said for 2012 of course. Novak won more titles but only 1 slam. Just in 2009 it seemed, Rafa was going to just crush the ATP while in 2012, Djokovic had just become monster.

it wasn't just about being consistent .....

federer lost only one match from madrid till the US Open final -- he won madrid, won RG, won wimbledon, won cincy, only lost in montreal to tsonga ...

he may have won only 4 titles, but he those 4 titles were : RG, wimbledon, madrid and cincy
 

Tenez!

Professional
Nadal
defeated him in 3 Grand Slam matches including 3 Grand Slam finals
defeated him in 1 Year End Finals
defeated him in 6 Masters Series finals
stood in the way of 1 year end #1
If I remember well it's 4 GS matches incl. 3 finals, and 7 Master Series finals (+ 1 Master's SF + 2 WTF encounters)

He beat them both 16 times since his rebirth as the Voivod Novak in January 2011, but Nadal derived much of his prestige from his lopsided rivalry with Federer => Nadal loses most by suffering the same fate at the hands of Djokovic.
 

user

Professional
Maybe I'm overstating the case by saying they haven't been hurt at all. I just mean that they haven't been hurt by him as much as Murray potentially has.

I think there might be some truth here, because I guess you're not talking about particular GS matches or number of titles the other guy lost to Djokovic. When he started to deny Federer and Nadal, both of them already were legends of the sport, and in no way could he take that status away from them, even though one could argue Djokovic is responsible for Nadal not being the GOAT, or Federer not winning 20+ GS titles...
With Murray it's another thing. He actually got nipped in the bud. If he had any hopes of reaching All time great status, it was (so far) taken away from him, by Djokovic and Federer mostly. Eliminate one of them, and maybe Murray would today be viewed as a Becker-Edberg-Wilander level ATG.
 

Murrayfan31

Hall of Fame
He hurt Nadal the most. He exposed Nadal as just a moonballer. We saw glimpses of what Davydenko could do to moonballing. But Djokovic has sustained his level. Why not many others could trouble Nadal beats me. Maybe a weakness on the high ball and/or backhand.
 

Rjtennis

Hall of Fame
He has hurt all of them quite a bit. He has hurt Fed the most recently, but Fed is the only one who has been stepping up and consistently meeting him in big matches.
 
N

Nachiket Nolefam

Guest
1 question for Fedfans. Who was his rival?

Djokovic/Nadal/Murray or Roddick/Hewitt/Nadal?

Because he has won jacksh*t since AO 2010. He has faced Djokovic and Murray a total of 3 times in slam finals before AO 2010.

So, either accept Federer's rivals as Roddick/Hewitt/Nadal which they were (Roddick as 3-21 record vs Federer and Hewitt 9-21 {never beaten Fed in a slam} while Murray has done it twice to Novak and has same H2H}.

Either don't BIT*H and MOAN about competition or accept Djokovic beat Fed thrice in slam finals when he could have won MORE.
 

SpicyCurry1990

Hall of Fame
There's a lot of complicated stuff here. For example, Djokovic's record against the top 10 is unreal this year, but I don't think it necessarily means he's had it tougher this year than he had it in say 2011 - I'd say he hasn't. There is a sterility to the tour right now which has made the top rankings very stable and therefore results more predictable. If a new wave of very talented young players came through in 2016-2017, Djokovic could be just as impressive as he was this year and win 3 Slams etc. but not get anywhere close to 31 top-ten wins due to the state of flux that such an uprising would stir on the tour, where things are less stable and it's far more likely for the lower ranked rising players to play above rank and for those in the top 10, definitively on the way down and finally being shoved aside by new talents, to be playing below rank. In short, the more stable and stagnant the tour, the more chances one is going to get to defeat a top-ten. Make no mistake though, I do not think this was a weak year. The year was fine and Federer provided ample competition, and Stan rocked Djokovic's world at the French Open.

Right I agree with you 100% here. Top 10 wins are not solely indicative of the competition being the strongest possible. I don't think 2015 is stronger than 2011, let alone 2012. My point was that you have the fraudbase on here with the gaul to call this a weak year when Novak put out 12 more top 10 wins than Fed did in 06, and it was not a case of a changing of the guard season that year, but simply the field of top players not being good enough to win. You had Baghdatis and Blake in big tournament finals, these were not new faces shoving aside old talent and rising. This year the top players maintained their positions and consistency and Djokovic boss'd them.

2011-2013 were strong years.. especially 2012 for reasons I've shared with you before, but 2011 and 2013 are noteworthy for featuring two peaking all-time greats, with it being 1-1 in terms of who won those battles. Djokovic has overall had more difficult years than Federer during his peak period if we 2011 and 2004 as starting points. He was punished in that he lost out on YE#1 one year and also won less Slams than he could have done. Going by a finals system, he's at least somewhat compensated. If 2012 and 2013 were a bit weaker, he could have won 2-3 Slams in those years. However, I do believe his 2015 iteration is the best iteration, and is better mentally, strategically and tactically than the Djokovic who played in 2012-2013, and I even prefer 2015 over 2011, even though I think Nadal was a slightly more live hurdle to get past than Federer was in 2015.

Right the point was how historically strong 2012/2013 were. Its a testament that Djokovic put up more pts than any Fed year outside of 06/07 in 2012 WITH just 1 slam. If he got 2 were it not such a strong field, the year likely surpasses Fed 07 and his own 11. I do think Djokovic has improved on his 2012-2013 game now. 2015 vs 2011 in terms of level is hard to judge because the playstyles defer. The current Djoker is more complete and all around while the 2011 return/ground game will never be matched.

As for Federer in 2015, clearly he's at a very high level otherwise he wouldn't have reached the last 3 biggest available tournament finals consecutively. I don't know much about the stats but I'll take your word for it.

For me the explanation is simple. Strategically, Djokovic has mastered his key rivals this year to an extent rarely before seen. Federer does have some issues compared to his pomp, mainly psychological, but he's clearly adapted as he's gotten older and was able to produce prime tennis this year at 3 of the 5 biggest events. In which case, why couldn't he beat Djokovic?

1. Djokovic produced a ridiculous year of tennis and Federer needed to be GOATing in the matches to compete.
2. Djokovic with Becker is waaaaaaay more ready on a strategic and tactical level for matches. He's out-prepared Federer, Murray and Nadal this year by a huge margin. He's mastered the match-ups.
3. As a follow on, Federer was basically as good as Djokovic this year at Wimbledon and the US Open or better but when it came to the specific match-up, Djokovic had the key.
4. This isn't to say Federer isn't disadvantaged regardless of the above points and stats before the big finals. There's something to be said for reaching the peak, descending and then trying to climb it again as opposed to soaring at the highest peak right in the middle of one's pomp on a psychological level.
5. So basically, Federer = Djokovic in terms of tennis against the field at Wimbledon and US Open if we exclude how they do against each other.

This was actually the point I was trying to make and am glad to see you say so. Its ridiculous to see the # of people who's explanation for why Federer is producing as good tennis statistically now as in 05-06 is that the entire field of play from rank 3-50 has declined so heavily compared to 05-06 that Fed has been able to decline to 50% of his prime level and still post those #s and thats why Djokovic wins. "If it was peak Fed he'd win in straights" lmao,

I'd like to see it acknowledged that Fed is still playing prime over-all at the tournaments hes met Djokovic at, as the stats, results, contemporaries, analysts, and Fed himself all say, but Djokovic just deals with him DESPITE this, and Fed has only about 1 level higher than this he has ever reached and even playing at that level it would be a struggle to bridge the gap from 4 set losses to a win.

Harking back to my opening point:

Top ten wins can be deceiving. While I tout them often on this board and do feel they are a useful representation in many ways of one's ability to peak in a match, the current climate dictates that Djokovic playing this well would achieve 31 wins against top-ten opposition. Nonetheless, this isn't a knock on Djokovic but just a point that it doesn't alone begin to dictate the strength of a year.

agreed

On why Nadal was a tougher hurdle than Federer.

Nadal was at the top of his game and supremely confident, and Djokovic took that version of Nadal, in full 2010 mode, made him question himself and his game and surpassed his level.

It's different with Federer in 2015, whose pure tennis has been outstanding at 2 of the 4 Slams, but psychologically his situation is drastically different, and unfortunately for Federer that has mattered, and his problems were further compounded by Djokovic's outstanding preparation.

Right I guess in a way you can say Nadal helped Djokovic. Since Fed already had his psyche crushed by him in 08-09, Novak didn't need to do the same, the groundwork as already layed down as long as the level was there.


Djokovic has had it tougher so far and is due a regression to the mean, which, much to the chagrin of many Fedal fans, might be happening. Lost out on some Slams through stiff comp.

Djokovic in 2015 was too good.. Djokovic is on the level of former highest all-time greats, therefore Djokovic wins unless a rival produces more or less their best ever year also, so for example as happened in 2011 and 2013.

Top-ten wins don't tell us everything, though they are useful.

Yup agreed with all of those things. If Federer truly does show a decline in the coming years, a regression to the mean might manifest to recoup some of those lost slams.
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
1 question for Fedfans. Who was his rival?

Djokovic/Nadal/Murray or Roddick/Hewitt/Nadal?

Because he has won jacksh*t since AO 2010. He has faced Djokovic and Murray a total of 3 times in slam finals before AO 2010.

So, either accept Federer's rivals as Roddick/Hewitt/Nadal which they were (Roddick as 3-21 record vs Federer and Hewitt 9-21 {never beaten Fed in a slam} while Murray has done it twice to Novak and has same H2H}.

Either don't BIT*H and MOAN about competition or accept Djokovic beat Fed thrice in slam finals when he could have won MORE.
H2H is 9-18 for Hewitt-Fed.
 

I am the Greatest!

Professional
Nadal.

Atleast that's how I view it. Federer's status as the greatest has already been cemented in the annals of tennis history. It doesn't matter if he lose some or win some, he's already there. Nadal, on the other hand is still going up the mountain, and Djokovic's ascencion really hurt him the most. In fact, you can actually say that Federer benefitted more from Novak's rise, as he (Novak) prevented Nadal from getting more slams and more Masters, or just by owning Nadal from 2011. If Novak was not around, sure, Federer gets atleast 2 two (2) slams, and further elevate his status, but it really doesn't matter. But Nadal would have come closer to Federer and Novak crushed his hopes.
 
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