The kid won another singles match against a very good 4.0 6-1 6-3. The two kids (his doubles partner is a 3-star 9th grader) lost in doubles, but they weren't seeded (and probably should have been) and drew the 4th seed, who are actually the best team in the tournament. They are teaching pros. One is a 4.5 league player who played D2 a couple years ago and the other is a self-rated "4.0" who has absolutely no business at all playing 4.0 and will probably be DQd at sectionals. The match looked like a final for the A draw and it was a first round match. In the end, the kids were just overpowered by two very good early 20's 4.5 level players.
How good is a 5-star 12-year-old?
- Thread starter J_R_B
- Start date
There fixed it for you
Well, they ARE 4.5. They're not sandbaggers at 4.5. The one guy was obviously talked into playing 4.0 for a year somehow, but I can't imagine it's fun for him.
In doubles so far, yes, the two kids (12 yo 5-star, 14 yo 3-star) were overpowered by two good 4.5 level mid-20s players. The kid is still in the singles tournament. His next match is against a seeded 4.5-level college kid who does not play on a college team (maybe club, but not sure) and is not a USTA league player but who has made the semis of this tournament the last two years. He plays a variable spin & control all-court game as opposed to the power topspin baseline bashing that you see a lot in juniors. This one will be a huge test for the kid, and a win would make him a serious contender in the tournament.
Also, I also watched the 5-star rising sophomore who is seeded 9th in the open draw yesterday. That kid has REALLY serious game, and could be a contender in the open draw with a couple breaks. He steamrolled another junior player who was pretty good himself 6-0 6-1 yesterday. He plays the #1 player for NYU tonight in what should be a terrific match in the Open.
Is this the Cryan tournament? I just played yesterday in the 4.0-4.5 A division. I lost the first match lol, but I it was to the 3rd seed and I won some games off him. Pretty fun/competitive match...it was my 1st tournament since high school (15 yrs ago).
Seemed like a really well run tournament. I love the facility there (Mercer County Park), I use it year round. Didn't see any 12 year olds killing it though.
Seemed like a really well run tournament. I love the facility there (Mercer County Park), I use it year round. Didn't see any 12 year olds killing it though.
Yeah, the Cryan. The 3 seed is probably seeded a little too high. He got that seed because he split sets in the county tournament with a guy in the open (who lost to Maleka yesterday) who was runner up in counties and has won many times. But that was a bad result for him. He shouldn't drop sets to this guy. Regardless, he's pretty good and deserves to be seeded, but probably not 3. He played at Mercer Community College several years ago. If he wins today (against an unseeded older guy), his next opponent (14 seed) would be another former MCCC player, so we'll see how he does in that one.
I played the A as well. I played a high school kid Saturday and won 6-4 6-1 and the 16 seed yesterday (another high school kid, but better) and lost 6-2 6-4. That was a good result for me in singles since I hardly ever play singles anymore. I was hoping to do well in doubles, but we drew the 2 seed in the first round and played awful and lost. One of those matches that reminds you that you really do suck at this sport.
Definitely the most fun tournament in the area.
I played the A as well. I played a high school kid Saturday and won 6-4 6-1 and the 16 seed yesterday (another high school kid, but better) and lost 6-2 6-4. That was a good result for me in singles since I hardly ever play singles anymore. I was hoping to do well in doubles, but we drew the 2 seed in the first round and played awful and lost. One of those matches that reminds you that you really do suck at this sport.
Definitely the most fun tournament in the area.
Last edited:
beernutz
Hall of Fame
That looks like a fun tournament. With so many events, are all the matches played at one venue?
I looked at your tennislink and I can see why you'll be missed by your old 4.0 teams.
Yes, one venue, Mercer County Park, best public tennis venue in NJ. They have 6 indoor and 22 outdoor courts. They host this tournament, the Middle States USONP tournament, the county championships, at least 2 college conference tournaments, co-host the NJSIAA high school state tournament, USTA district and sectional playoffs, in addition to having in-house leagues for levels 3.0-5.5 (there's about a 1.0 difference between their league rating and USTA) in mens and womens, 40+, 50+ A & B, and junior divisions, all in singles and doubles.
gplracer
Hall of Fame
I find this thread entertaining. I play 4.5 but I am out of shape. My son just turned 12 last month and is ranked in the top 60 in the southern section. He is getting harder to beat but usually the difference is serve. He has trouble with mine and I take advantage of his. Plus me beating him is in his head.
You'd destroy him if you played net, sliced hard and angled, and force him to move in on short low slices, only to lob him to repeat the process. Kids just can't handle the wide serves as well as full grown people, as they have much more distance to travel quickly.
Some kids are fast, but very few are quick.
Some kids are fast, but very few are quick.
Now translate top 60 in the section to top 70 in the country and you know what we're dealing with. Now that I've actually seen the kid play once, I can say with confidence he is definitely a good 4.5 level player. Like you said, the serve is a relative weakness just because he doesn't have the height/strength to really drill it.
In doubles, the two kids also struggled with being lobbed and not being able to put away overheads (similar to serves), but those are doubles-specific issues since they will just stand at the baseline and bash away in singles.
SEE? THAT's the weakness of kids! They might volley well, but they hate to play net position tennis when the scoring starts.
I already mentioned to short angle them, then lob them, because they're short.
And they are NOT quick. Meaning first step quick. They can be fast, but not nearly as fast, or as quick, as when they turn 16 or so.
They lack reach, and are susceptible to wide serves, and also to trying to recover from wide serves.
And they're still KIDS, you can drop shot them, then crush one into their hip pocket to see their reaction.
You gotta attack their second serves, meaning big groundies or chip deep and charge.
But you won't win against them if you stay at your baseline and trade topspin groundstrokes with them, unless you're top 4.5 to 5.0.
I already mentioned to short angle them, then lob them, because they're short.
And they are NOT quick. Meaning first step quick. They can be fast, but not nearly as fast, or as quick, as when they turn 16 or so.
They lack reach, and are susceptible to wide serves, and also to trying to recover from wide serves.
And they're still KIDS, you can drop shot them, then crush one into their hip pocket to see their reaction.
You gotta attack their second serves, meaning big groundies or chip deep and charge.
But you won't win against them if you stay at your baseline and trade topspin groundstrokes with them, unless you're top 4.5 to 5.0.
gplracer
Hall of Fame
I hear you. My son has several friends ranked in the top 50 in the country. My son is way down at 300 although he has not played that many tournaments that give national points which is a key factor. One of his good friends that he used to play doubles with is a year older and ranked in the top 20 in the 12s. My son has to grow into his body a bit. He just turned 12 and is almost 5'7". He hits a big ball but has to move better. Serves and overheads are usually a weakness for kids this age. Volleys are not always a strength either. There are a lot of kids ranked 60 in the nation that hit the ball about 8 feet over the net with lots of topspin and do not miss. They can be tough to beat from the back of the court if you get in a long point.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Sounds about right. The blue chip I watch play is easily comparable to a 5.0 adult male and he's also 12.
Lots of adult 5.0 males around here are 30 years old, have played tennis since 8, played for their college, are 6'3" tall, fit as a fiddle, can volley as well as topspin groundie with more force than any kid has seen, and also have huge serves.
No chance any prodigy 12 year old short of Nadal and Gasquet can beat them, not until they turn 16.
No chance any prodigy 12 year old short of Nadal and Gasquet can beat them, not until they turn 16.
gplracer
Hall of Fame
Agreed - it is too tall a task to ask. As stated in previous post most have not developed their serve and are not used to seeing a big serve.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Do you ever get tired of always being right? :lol:
- -
Last weekend, I was watching the kid play singles against an adult who is really good and had a great serve. The kid won, smarty pants. He had no trouble with someone bombing serves at him.
Last edited:
According to most guys here, I'm usually wrong.
But, on this subject, I've been playing and practicing with juniors since 1978, in tennis at least, and in a couple handfuls of other sports.
Self performance sports, younger kids can do just fine.
Competing against an experienced adult, they always fall apart, playing their "C" game.
Now for sure, a top 12 year old, nationally ranked, will beat an inexperienced male 4.5 from the baseline every time.
But, on this subject, I've been playing and practicing with juniors since 1978, in tennis at least, and in a couple handfuls of other sports.
Self performance sports, younger kids can do just fine.
Competing against an experienced adult, they always fall apart, playing their "C" game.
Now for sure, a top 12 year old, nationally ranked, will beat an inexperienced male 4.5 from the baseline every time.
Bud
Bionic Poster
I've heard this kid is #1 in SoCal and his record is excellent. I'd venture to say he's nationally ranked.
Sure, most top 3 California juniors get some National ranking below 100.
And to be sure, they practice with adult's all the time.
BUT, they play their matches against other little kids.
As we all know, when a 4.5 adult hit's with a 12 year old, he is NOT slicing and volleying, he's NOT coming to net on skidding approach shots, and he's NOT hitting his very best serves in practice with the kids.
And to be sure, they practice with adult's all the time.
BUT, they play their matches against other little kids.
As we all know, when a 4.5 adult hit's with a 12 year old, he is NOT slicing and volleying, he's NOT coming to net on skidding approach shots, and he's NOT hitting his very best serves in practice with the kids.
Tennisnut2929
New User
He definitely won't like junk. Will probably go for more than he should. He will prob have crazy topspin. Slice a lot.
and said 12 y.o. is not in the draw for the National 12's starting Saturday, so he is ranked #66 not sure why not playing for a national title, unless not endorsed by Section
This is the guy I mentioned a couple posts up. He was a fairly high rated local high school player, but didn't play enough USTA tournaments to get a TR.net star rating. He's probably a solid 4.5 level player and has advanced pretty far in this tournament in the past, but he doesn't play USTA league and he doesn't play in college. He's also the #1 seed in doubles.
This was a tough matchup for the young kid because this guy has the athleticism of a junior player, but plays a more varied game than you typically see in juniors based on mixing spin and placement rather than just bashing power topspin groundstrokes from the baseline for 2 hours straight. I wasn't at the tournament last night, but it looks like the kid probably had a hard time dealing with the varied game as opposed to just mindlessly bashing.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
I think he is very active in tennis overall (teaching) and college club tennis at GW (where you'd likely need to be 5.5 level to play team D1 singles.)
Yes. He'd have no chance to make varsity at GW or any solid D1 school, but he's very good nonetheless, and it's fun to see people who actually hit slice forehands occassionally. If any GW varsity players registered for the Cryan, it would definitely be in the open draw.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
That's about it although I have some reservation over the GW kid being closer to 5.0.... but I guess 12 yr 5 star = 4.5.
goober
Legend
This "closer to 5.0" player went 3 sets with a 4.0 player in the QF yesterday. No way he is a 5.0. Someone who is 2 levels above someone else should not give up more than a game or two in a serious match.
I doubt it. A video of the GW guy would get a 3.0- tt rating. He has serious flaws that start with the grip on his forehand. His grip is extreme western, but it's so extreme it's like hitting a backhand with the wrong side of the racquet. It's very strange. So instead of torquing his wrist to hit traditional forehands, he uses this no-pace slice scoop shot most of the time. Over the years, he's developed incredible control over it and also added a twist motion that puts sidespin on it at the same time. It's a very bizarre stroke, but it's confusing and difficult to handle if you've never seen anything like it before, and I think that played into the issues that the kid had with him (I wasn't there that night, so I can't say for sure). He went 3 sets with a 4.0 from my team last night (after my guy had played singles, doubles, and mixed for 6 1/2 hours the night before...). I think he would get smoked pretty badly by any legit 5.0 with the ability destroy no-pace junkballs.
Last edited:
Mongolmike
Hall of Fame
Did the "kid" call the older player a pusher because of his style, and complain that he can't stand to hit with players who have no pace?
Because if he did... WELCOME TO THE TW ADULT LEAGUE FORUMS son!! You'll fit right in!
"Pusher" isn't right either (and neither is "older", really, since he's like 20 or 21) because he drives his backhand (presumably because he doesn't have to change grips to hit it, LOL), so you'll get points where he nonchalantly stands at the baseline and hits these goofy scoop shots over and over that you have to run all over the court to track down and then as soon as you hit to his backhand, wham, he'll crank a winner out of nowhere. It's a very difficult game to play against, but it definitely has a ceiling, too.
maggmaster
Hall of Fame
Can he hit a real forehand too? Or does he just not have one?
goober
Legend
Any video of him playing floating around on the internet? It would be interesting to see him play. It is amazing how good people can get with unorthodox shots. I know this guy who wins a lot of 4.5 tournaments that slices everything- FH, BH, serves. I doubt though he can win at any higher levels. But for him probably not a big deal since 4.5 is usually the top for rec level leagues and NTRP tournies.
Crazy pro would be Santoro and on the WTA Nicelescu
maggmaster
Hall of Fame
Santoro was an amazing athlete though and his strokes were sound, even if they were odd. I am of the opinion that with the right natural gifts any type of strokes can be developed to a very high level. Some will be more efficient than others but you can master anything with enough reps.
Nothing WRONG with Hawaiin grip, strong W.
Failed here provided 5.0 level video of himself hitting with another college player, using that kind of grip.
Kiteboard, who used to post here, used Hawaiin grip, and hit with the same face for both forehands and backhands, and can use the other face for slice backhands.
Failed here provided 5.0 level video of himself hitting with another college player, using that kind of grip.
Kiteboard, who used to post here, used Hawaiin grip, and hit with the same face for both forehands and backhands, and can use the other face for slice backhands.
