Nadal had the toughest competition out of any player in history

[NatF]

I think this explains the difference between what Nadal had to face vs what Federer had to face.

Nope.

 

[mike danny]

This is what Federer had to face at best

I'm glad, which means that Fed's guys would whoop Nadal's azz

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Finally

A long overdue thread from the OP to remind everyone he/she? is a Federer and Nadal fan first and foremost. And to mention Wimbledon 2008.

 

[REKX]

I am a Federer and Nadal fan. I always watch them play live when they come over, my two favourite players.

Although I don't enjoy Federer's game as much now as I did before. In his prime it was magic, so quick so fast, aggressive, would go for the lines. Nowadays that same level isn't there - of course he is 10 years older now, and most players his age have retired but I find it a bit sad for him to be remembered for his 2017-2018 style, when it was really 2004-2009 style which transcended him beyond anything we have seen before.

 

[mike danny]

I am a Federer and Nadal fan. I always watch them play live when they come over, my two favourite players.

Although I don't enjoy Federer's game as much now as I did before. In his prime it was magic, so quick so fast, aggressive, would go for the lines. Nowadays that same level isn't there - of course he is 10 years older now, and most players his age have retired but I find it a bit sad for him to be remembered for his 2017-2018 style, when it was really 2004-2009 style which transcended him beyond anything we have seen before.

I think you have proven whose fan you really are.

 

[REKX]

So he is actually lucky, but the best when it suits you Make up your mind.

Wimb 2007 proves Nadal was at his very best if you want to use just individual tournaments as proof.

No I think, and most people would certainly agree, than Nadal's Wimbledon form in 2008 was far superior to 2007.

Has anyone not seen the 2008 match? People act like it was a normal match.

The points were breath taking, from both players. There was shots looking like clear winners, yet the players would get to it and keep the rally going.

Have you seen the match in 2008?

 

[mike danny]

Finally

A long overdue thread from the OP to remind everyone he/she? is a Federer and Nadal fan first and foremost. And to mention Wimbledon 2008.

That poster is still butthurt of Federer's success.

 

[mike danny]

No I think, and most people would certainly agree, than Nadal's Wimbledon form in 2008 was far superior to 2007.

Has anyone not seen the 2008 match? People act like it was a normal match.

The points were breath taking, from both players. There was shots looking like clear winners, yet the players would get to it and keep the rally going.

Have you seen the match in 2008?

Have you seen the 2007 match? 2008 had more drama, but 2007 had higher quality.

You say Nadal's 2008 Wimb form was superior because he won, which is very convenient.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

That poster is still butthurt of Federer's success.

He or she is Federer AND Nadal fan, remember.

 

[pc1]

In the pre-open era top players would played head to head tours against the World Pro Champion. So Tony Trabert, who was a super player played Pancho Gonzalez who had been called the GOAT by many. In 1956 I believe he played Gonzalez 101 matches and lost 74 of them! Now that’s tough competition when you always play the top player in the world!

 

[Fedforever]

Finally

A long overdue thread from the OP to remind everyone he/she? is a Federer and Nadal fan first and foremost. And to mention Wimbledon 2008.

Perhaps one day he'll start with "I am a Nadal and Djokovic fan" then you can really enjoy yourself!!

 

[REKX]

I wanted Federer to win Aus 2017. I even made a thread saying Nadal goes in as favourite but I would want Federer to win.

I don't think you understand what a non bias analysis is.

Back to the point. Federer had mid tier players to compete with when he was winning slams, Nadal has top tier.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Perhaps one day he'll start with "I am a Nadal and Djokovic fan" then you can really enjoy yourself!!

Haha. I can't wait.

 

[mike danny]

I wanted Federer to win Aus 2017. I even made a thread saying Nadal goes in as favourite but I would want Federer to win.

I don't think you understand what a non bias analysis is.

Back to the point. Federer had mid tier players to compete with when he was winning slams, Nadal has top tier.

Yeah sure...

If Nadal won that match, you wouldn't be discounting 2017.

Nadal has had no top tier clay courters to compete against, so again, you are wrong.

 

[KINGROGER]

Nadal only had 3 easy GS rivals in the finals: Puerta, Berdych and Anderson. (Ferrer in the 2013 FO final doesn't count since Nadal defeated Djokovic in the semifinals).

Federer won 12 GS in the waek era (2003-2007) against Philippoussis, Baghdatis, old Agassi, Roddick, teenager Nadal on grass and the likes.

Not to mention an injured Cilic in the Wimbledon 2017 final (12 +1).

13 >>>3.

Simple maths. Federer weaker era.

Nadal had 2012, 2014 Djokovic, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011 (choked) Fed in RG finals (they played nowhere near top level in those finals) as weak competition so there’s 6 weak era slams.

Berdych too there’s 7. Then Anderson, Wawrinka so 9. Oh and 2010/2013 USO Djokovic is no stronger than 04 Wimbledon, 06 USO Roddick and he didn’t play great so that’s 11.

Leaving Nadal with 5 strong slams.

Meanwhile Federer has:

04 AO (Hewitt, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Safin)
07 Wimbledon (Nadal played awesome)
08 USO (Djokovic, Murray b2b)
09 RG (Haas, Delpo, Soderling was a tough draw)
09 Wimbledon
12 Wimbledon (Peak Djokovic, Murray b2b aged 31)
17 AO

So 7 strong slams.

Simple maths. Nadal weak era champ.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Have you seen the 2007 match? 2008 had more drama, but 2007 had higher quality.

You say Nadal's 2008 Wimb form was superior because he won, which is very convenient.

Play fair. You are but a mere Federer fan.

OP is a Federer AND Nadal fan. Therefore more fair, objective amd unbiased with no agenda.

Now, if you declare yourself a Nadal AND Federer fan, then you will be seen as fair, objective and unbiased also...and of course mention AO 2017 as the match that defined the GOAT.

 

[clout]

ok I never understood how players who essentially played in the same era can have differing levels of "competition." I also never understood how players as great as Fedalovic are can be seen as "vultures" or "weak era players" because tbh when you're as great as they are, they'll always find ways to well, be great!

 

[KINGROGER]

LOL @ Federer being strong RG final opponent for Rafa. Spam high % moonball to BH, wait for weak reply, run everything down. Easy pickings for Nadal on clay.

Same as Djokovic in 2012 and 2014 who sucked in those finals and didn’t bring anywhere near his 2011 clay or 2013 RG level.

 

[KINGROGER]

Imagine if Nadal didn't have Djokovic to deal with after 2010, Nadal would probably be ahead of Federer in the slam count.

After 2009 Federer's greatest form was gone, Nadal had no problems beating Federer in slams on any surface after 2008 (taking 2017 onwards out of account). But to his dismay Djokovic was waiting, who was a very credible champion.

Federer cleaned up in the years before Nadal and Djokovic became a force. He had very weak competition at the beginning of his career, and right now at the end where he is winning slams.

Logic fail, since Federer has been hurt more by Djokovic by Nadal.

Take out Djokovic and Fed likely wins:

2008 AO
2011 AO, 2011 USO (60/40 favourite based on form that year)
2014 Wimbledon
2015 Wimbledon
2015 USO
2016 AO

27 slams now.

Rafa wins:

2011 Wimbledon
2012 AO
Outside shot at 2015 RG (doubt he beats Stanimal in that form though)

What’s that, 2-3 additional slams? So 18-19.

Complete fail. Djokovic has kept Nadal in the slam race by denying Federer quite a few 30s slams.

Even if we give 2011 USO to Nadal (I’m not, Fed was in better form, hit through him easily on clay, destroyed him few months later at YEC) then its still 26 > 19-20 to Fed.

 

[KINGROGER]

Djokovic isn’t even competition for Rafa.

For Rafa to win more slams, he needs to play in an era with no Murray, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berdych, González, Blake, Youzny, Rosol, Darcis, Müller, Brown, Kyrgios, Verdasco, Pouille etc LOL

 

[sarmpas]

Nadal leads the h2h against Federer so Federer had it tougher against Nadal than Nadal against Federer. That's obvious to all expect VB.

 

[slal1984]

If Nadal had the toughest competition then since Federer has been around all through Nadal's career and more his total is nadal's competition toughness plus the extra he played..!! Thus Tougher..!!

 

[ForumMember]

Nadal's competition isn't the toughest among the Big 3. Competition for all 3 of them has been pretty much the same.

Nadal having it tougher than Federer is nothing but a myth since they have been top players together since 2005 and have played against the same field.

Nadal trolls always say Nadal had it tougher because he had to deal with Federer. Well, not Fed's fault he couldn't face himself since he was the top dog for many years.

Not so hard to be top dog when dog next to you was just roddick

 

[ATPtennisFan]

Most of Nadals off clay slams were won with some of the easiest draws ever - US Open 2017 and Wimbledon 2010.
In US 2010 and 2013/Aus 2009/Wimbedon, Djokovic/Federer got the rough end of the stick being in the tougher half.

Clay field failed to produce a single top level clay court specialist between 2005(Coria) or 2017(Thiem) a gap of 12 years.

Yet it's the humble warrior Nadal who has faced the toughest competition ever.

 

[metsman]

Most of Nadals off clay slams were won with some of the easiest draws ever - US Open 2017 and Wimbledon 2010.
In US 2010 and 2013/Aus 2009/Wimbedon, Djokovic/Federer got the rough end of the stick being in the tougher half.

Clay field failed to produce a single top level clay court specialist between 2005(Coria) or 2017(Thiem) a gap of 12 years.

Yet it's the humble warrior Nadal who has faced the toughest competition ever.

Thiem is a top level clay court specialist? What does that make Fognini?

 

[RS]

Most of Nadals off clay slams were won with some of the easiest draws ever - US Open 2017 and Wimbledon 2010.
In US 2010 and 2013/Aus 2009/Wimbedon, Djokovic/Federer got the rough end of the stick being in the tougher half.

Clay field failed to produce a single top level clay court specialist between 2005(Coria) or 2017(Thiem) a gap of 12 years.

Yet it's the humble warrior Nadal who has faced the toughest competition ever.

Wimbeldon 2010 wasn’t a easy draw. It had 2 difficult 5 setters in it. And Murray who reached the QF or better every year at Wimbeldon from 2008 to 2017. Berdych beat Federer and Djokovic in succession. USO 2010 had a in form Djokovic in it in a over 3 hour and a half match. AO 2009 Federer had it tougher? Nadal had a over 5 hour epic and still won. Federer reached all 4 finals that year.
Djokovic had a tougher draw in 2013 but Nadal still beat the 2nd best player that season. I agree USO 2017 wasn’t as high quality but the rest were.

 

[RS]

LOL @ Federer being strong RG final opponent for Rafa. Spam high % moonball to BH, wait for weak reply, run everything down. Easy pickings for Nadal on clay.

Same as Djokovic in 2012 and 2014 who sucked in those finals and didn’t bring anywhere near his 2011 clay or 2013 RG level.

Djokovic played well in the 2014 F. 2012 both were not at their best.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Nadal does not have to worst competition in tennis history (nor does Fed), because the current field is a pathetic joke and has been for two years.

Why not consider Lendl for having the toughest competition of any player ever?

At the beginning of his career, he lost slam finals to two ATG's: Borg and Connors

In the middle of his career, he had to battle peak McEnroe (82-3 for the 1984 year), Becker, Wilander and Edberg, and lost slam finals to all of these near ATG's

At the tail end of his career, he had to battle ATG Sampras and Agassi (who destroyed old Lendl in the last two matches they ever played).

So without any doubt, Lendl had brutal competition from ATG's throughout every year of his playing career. Who has Nadal had the past 2 years as fierce competition? An ancient Fed and an AWOL Djokovic. There is no Sampras coming up to blow him off the court, as Lendl had to deal with. There are also no grass specialists except for Fed, whereas Lendl had to deal with 5 or 6 of them on super fast, slick 80's grass.

 

[RS]

Nadal only had 3 easy GS rivals in the finals: Puerta, Berdych and Anderson. (Ferrer in the 2013 FO final doesn't count since Nadal defeated Djokovic in the semifinals).

Federer won 12 GS in the waek era (2003-2007) against Philippoussis, Baghdatis, old Agassi, Roddick, teenager Nadal on grass and the likes.

Not to mention an injured Cilic in the Wimbledon 2017 final (12 +1).

13 >>>3.

Simple maths. Federer weaker era.

Some of those were pretty strong. But 2003-2006 doesn’t match 2007-2010 nor 2011-14 I’d agree.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Some of those were pretty strong. But 2003-2006 doesn’t match 2007-2010 nor 2011-14 I’d agree.

2010 was a weak year.

 

[Pheasant]

Nadal does not have to worst competition in tennis history (nor does Fed), because the current field is a pathetic joke and has been for two years.

Why not consider Lendl for having the toughest competition of any player ever?

At the beginning of his career, he lost slam finals to two ATG's: Borg and Connors

In the middle of his career, he had to battle peak McEnroe (82-3 for the 1984 year), Becker, Wilander and Edberg, and lost slam finals to all of these near ATG's

At the tail end of his career, he had to battle ATG Sampras and Agassi (who destroyed old Lendl in the last two matches they ever played).

So without any doubt, Lendl had brutal competition from ATG's throughout every year of his playing career. Who has Nadal had the past 2 years as fierce competition? An ancient Fed and an AWOL Djokovic. There is no Sampras coming up to blow him off the court, as Lendl had to deal with. There are also no grass specialists except for Fed, whereas Lendl had to deal with 5 or 6 of them on super fast, slick 80's grass.

Finally, Lendl is getting his due. I have said for years that Lendl has had the toughest opponents in history. His mere 8 slams, given how diverse the surfaces were in his era, greatly underrates him. Toss in the fact that the AO was also a grass surface until 1989 ensured that 2 of the 4 slams during Lendl's entire prime were on his worst surfaces.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Finally, Lendl is getting his due. I have said for years that Lendl has had the toughest opponents in history. His mere 8 slams, given how diverse the surfaces were in his era, greatly underrates him. Toss in the fact that the AO was also a grass surface until 1989 ensured that 2 of the 4 slams during Lendl's entire prime were on his worst surfaces.

But his last AO title.

 

[aman92]

LOL what? You know nothing. Nadal never had to face both Federer and Djokovic at their peaks at the same time. Federer actually did have to face both peak Nadal and peak Djokovic at the same time. Ergo, it's not blasphemy to say Federer has had it the toughest.

But Federer in his peak also got the chance to face Roddick, Hewitt, Baghdatis and Gonzalez- all weak era specialists. Nadal when emerging has to stave off peak Federer and then tackle peak Djokovic.

 

[KINGROGER]

But Federer in his peak also got the chance to face Roddick, Hewitt, Baghdatis and Gonzalez- all weak era specialists. Nadal when emerging has to stave off peak Federer and then tackle peak Djokovic.

The same González who destroyed Nadal himself LOL fail.

Also Hewitt and Roddick on HC/grass are same level competition as Federer or Djokovic at RG.

 

[KINGROGER]

Djokovic played well in the 2014 F. 2012 both were not at their best.

He was nowhere near his top level of 2013 or 2011 clay masters.

Certainly no stronger than so called “weak” competition Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Agassi on grass/HC.

 

[existential dread]

So if Federer had been an extremely late bloomer and not won a single slam until Nadal won his first, this would prove he's faced stronger competition, by subtraction? If Federer had not taken advantage of a supposedly weak era, he would actually be a better player than the one he's equaled since that player's emergence? (16 a piece since 2005 FO)

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Djokovic played well in the 2014 F. 2012 both were not at their best.

Djokovic was ill and puking in that final.

 

[NoleFam]

I have to chuckle a bit at this poll. Come on guys, Federer has the Slam record, most of the all time records, and pretty much everything that will seal his stance as GOAT but the toughest competition?

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Djokovic. Had the actual no.1 and no.2 plus coetaneous Murray in all his career.

Second, Nadal. Third, distant, Federer.

Obviously LOL @ the results of the poll.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

I have to chuckle a bit at this poll. Come on guys, Federer has the Slam record, most of the all time records, and pretty much everything that will seal his stance as GOAT but the toughest competition?

Big4 wins is a stupid section for Fed's 2003-2007 period.

 

[NoleFam]

Big4 wins is a stupid section for Fed's 2003-2007 period.

Then don't pay attention to the Big 4 wins. Look at the top 5 wins or even top 20 wins.

 

[Zetty]

Interesting topic, he came up against the GOAT in his early years and then had to face another player with great longevity and consistency in Djokovic...but I would say someone that's a little younger than Fed probably has it worse, in that they had to suffer Federer, Nadal, AND Djokovic...so someone like....Simon or Berdych.

 

[zep]

Nadal had it really tough till 2014. He had to beat Federer/Djokovic in semi/final to win 12 of his 14 slams till 2014. He also lost 6 of his 7 GS final losses to them. Since last year it's been slightly easier.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I find the timing of this thread funny....Have you seen his RG draw for this year?

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Nadal does not have to worst competition in tennis history (nor does Fed), because the current field is a pathetic joke and has been for two years.

Why not consider Lendl for having the toughest competition of any player ever?

At the beginning of his career, he lost slam finals to two ATG's: Borg and Connors

In the middle of his career, he had to battle peak McEnroe (82-3 for the 1984 year), Becker, Wilander and Edberg, and lost slam finals to all of these near ATG's

At the tail end of his career, he had to battle ATG Sampras and Agassi (who destroyed old Lendl in the last two matches they ever played).

So without any doubt, Lendl had brutal competition from ATG's throughout every year of his playing career. Who has Nadal had the past 2 years as fierce competition? An ancient Fed and an AWOL Djokovic. There is no Sampras coming up to blow him off the court, as Lendl had to deal with. There are also no grass specialists except for Fed, whereas Lendl had to deal with 5 or 6 of them on super fast, slick 80's grass.

True, Lendl had tough competition.

Here you can see the year of birth of ATGs of Open Era:

1952 Connors, Vilas
1953 -
1954 -
1955 -
1956 Borg
1957 -
1958 -
1959 McEnroe
1960 Lendl
1961 -
1962 -
1963 -
1964 Wilander
1965 -
1966 Edberg
1967 Becker
1968 -
1969 -
1970 Agassi, Courier
1971 Sampras
1972 -
1973 -
1974 -
1975 -
1976 -
1977 -
1978 -
1979 -
1980 -
1981 Federer
1982 -
1983 -
1984 -
1985 -
1986 Nadal
1987 Djokovic, Murray

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Then don't pay attention to the Big 4 wins. Look at the top 5 wins or even top 20 wins.

Then there are the two ranking outliers Safin and Baghdatis from the AO finals, who lower Fed's numbers. (I remember someone else mentioning this in an earlier discussion about this picture)

 

[Deon Sanders]

Andy Roddick is the correct answer

 

[thrust]

Especially after 2017 and 2018, no Nadal fan should complain about weak eras. He himself is a huge benefactor of it now.

Same for Federer, same competition, that is if your statement is true. Fed has 2 weak eras, 00-06, 17-18

 

[thrust]

Nadal only had 3 easy GS rivals in the finals: Puerta, Berdych and Anderson. (Ferrer in the 2013 FO final doesn't count since Nadal defeated Djokovic in the semifinals).

Federer won 12 GS in the waek era (2003-2007) against Philippoussis, Baghdatis, old Agassi, Roddick, teenager Nadal on grass and the likes.

Not to mention an injured Cilic in the Wimbledon 2017 final (12 +1).

13 >>>3.

Simple maths. Federer weaker era.

Excellent post, well stated!

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Since 2005 - when Nadal won his first slam...

Nadal - 16 slams
Federer - 16 slams

They both won 16 slams each...