rfprse
Professional
Got it. Is there any difference between shooting the speed gun behind the player and in front of the player?more in line the better unless there have some big improvements in equipment.
Got it. Is there any difference between shooting the speed gun behind the player and in front of the player?more in line the better unless there have some big improvements in equipment.
Jolly, thanks for your effort to clear it up some, but I think in the end, few see things different than they did to start with.
Maybe steady eddy now sees that his speed trac placed at the back fence gives him a number to double to get close to what the speed off the face was.
You did a nice job of collecting data and presenting it for us and I guess there will be quite a lot of interpretation on what it means.
At least maybe you proved how silly the 40 mph number is.
This is so ironic. J flicks a serve across the net and someone says he hit 100mph serve.
We did a bunch of things, like mounting on a pole to get them closer to level with the contact pt, along with several methods of improving the alignment without getting the machine hit and all of these things helped to an extent,
but we cold only get to about 8-10% of a good off the face number.
They are great machines for under $200, but do have some limitations that are hard to get around. Or you could just say that the ATP stuff is really quite Awesome!
What jolly should do is create his own speed cage where he hits the ball into a net that is just a couple of feet in front of him, where the speedtrac is right behind the net so that it gets a better reading. Then he should see how fast the ball goes on his normal relaxed motion and see how it compares to when he's hitting on a court with the exact same motion. There's a problem in that you can't see where the ball would land in the cage, but it might help demonstrate how much speed loss occurs between baseline and the net.
Jolly is one of the
rare ones who can clock a 109 with that set up.
Maybe I could use a soccer goal?
I'm not exactly keen on the idea of serving into a chain fence from close range.
J
Id say a 60 mph heavy topspin/kicker can prob hit the fence. Mabey add about 5 mph for a flat serve unless it hits the service line.
How much difference does it make that Jolly is taller than I am? (I don't know this for a fact, but everyone is taller than I am!).
I would think that Karlovic's 33 mph serve would hit the fence, whereas Michael Chang would need a lot more mph.
Then again, I know nothing of science or physics or stuff like that.
I have a 2nd little baby tripod, and I was tempted to put the speed trac up on it, and make it exactly the hight of the net to try to cut out some angle error from the radar resting on the ground, but knowing me, on my very first serve I would hit the thing and that would be the end of that.
J
^^^LOL. Don't try it. I did, and came extremely close to hitting the radar. Not worth it, IMO.
Here is a vid I took of the moment:
I placed the radar on the opposite side of the net (more than half way up) the service line:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvs1-q9ip5E
If I would have hit the radar, it would have surely smashed the poor thing.
Here is another one, although It didn't come as close to the first one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBOV9zsrps
Here is one I took, where I hit the camera. The camera was mounted on the fence, about 5 feet up. (fence, 23 feet from baseline): (luckily, the camera didn't break).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGWip2F_e7M
(An Andy Roddick's 140mph serve...) It would cross the net in the 100-105 range and
be in the 8o range just after the bounce.
just guess in around 90 just before the bounce, as that is a short distance from the net.
Can someone proove this mathematically? Im sure some one in this forum has it. Somehow, a drop from 140mph to 90 before it touches the surface seems too much. Appreciate it!
Guys, the speed trac measures speed in an area in front of it. In other words, if it is placed directly on the net, it will pick up the speed of the ball as it approaches the net>> Not directly at the net.
Not sure what the vid error introduced would be, but I'm sure MIke is. Frame count can be off, distance can be off, math error, etc.... plus there is the built in margin for error as well.
Maybe Mike can comment on his experience with this.
IMO, if a high frame rate is used and the distance is measured at the court, this will provide a more accurate max velocity reading than a radar gun; including what the ATP uses. I would like to see more data shared on shot spot. They should be able to calculate velocities from the footage they take.
Yes, ....but too not far out unless they have improved newer machines. It used to be out only about < 12'.
Do you have numbers for your radar's pick up area?
yes it will get you walking up from farther, but you are a big target and slow. The ball is very small, fast, and slowing quickly, all of which is a big challenge for the radar.
Your 82 on the receivers svc line should be well over 100 off the racket face.
Are you saying that it would only be an 87?
Great stuff Mike.
I've seen some stuff by hawk-eye but can't seem to find it again. They are able to pull speeds all along the flight of the ball.
Sometimes they animate a ball path (I think they call it shot tracker) and give a mph reading.
One of the most exciting things about shot spot is that it should allow detailed statistics on the professional game to be developed.
Last few times I have seen Roddick on TV, it looks like he does not believe the machines..
Sometimes they animate a ball path (I think they call it shot tracker) and give a mph reading.
One of the most exciting things about shot spot is that it should allow detailed statistics on the professional game to be developed.
^^^around that speed range. yes.
If I remember correctly, I actually hit a few the radar registered at 111 - 113, however, when I recorded the video, those serves were out, so I didn't include them.
^^^LOL. Don't try it. I did, and came extremely close to hitting the radar. Not worth it, IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvs1-q9ip5E
That is one sick serve drak. If only... Well ill be content with my about 60-80mph twist and topspin serves. I wanna be able to serve like that when im older.
I dont use flat serves i just never got it.
My fastest serves which im still tweaking are topspin and slice. I think those top out at around 85-90 just not superconsistant(I like consistant first serves 65% or better) and they dont have the nice kick im used to. I will probably use them on AD side for down the line serves, once i get it atleast. I do know what im talking about when i say my serve speed just to tell you.
I hit a bunch in the 60somethings that didn't make it, 51 was the slowest that exactly hit the fence.
I had one good run of them that hit about 1' short of the fence, which would be about where the fence would be on a normal 20' from the baseline fence (The one at this school was nearly 22').
Pretty much anything in the 70's hit the fence, 60's could hit or fall short, but would probably hit a 20' fence.
51 was the slowest that hit the fence exactly. I think that one hit because it had a loopier trajectory. I guess that would be like just popping the serve in with a western FH grip.
J
Wow. Pages and pages, since I was last at this thread. Thanks for the work put in Jolly.
As I said in my 2nd post in this thread:
"As to the 40mph, I've never actually tried to measure my minimum speed to hit the back fence (I've never hit one that hasn't hit the back fence...), but I estimate around 40mph, as I've hit mid 60mph serves on radar that VERY easily reach the back fence. My warm ups are sometimes much slower than that, and they easily reach the back fence. (flat) "
I am certainly willing to go with 51mph as a minimum for now. It certainly is NOT the 80-100mph estimates we got from some people! It is, as I said "VERY SLOW". I think differences in our motion/ball may account for some slight difference as well. As a good server like you would know, the QUALITY of the serve hit, makes a huge difference as to the bounce....as I explained in my pm to Raiden, it actually gets fairly difficult, for me, to slow down the ball that much, while still trying to get quality contact and extension.
I have a question for those who have knowledge on good serve technique. I'm trying to be careful to word this correctly.
When hitting a hard flat serve, should the racquet motion be such that the racquet is swinging a little bit to the right of my head (such that the head of the racquet swings kinda over my shoulder), or should it be swung directly over top of my head?
One thing I already knew is that I often have a bit of an erratic toss, which explains why sometimes I can crush the ball, and other times I hit it less cleanly and softer. I think I have most of the serve motion pretty good such as the legs, body turn, and back-scratch portions, but I've just been trying to figure out what makes the diff. between between a good serve and a bad serve.
I started experimenting and noticed that when I swing the racquet head directly over my head and can hit harder serves than if its a little to the right over my shoulder. I didn't know if this is not the right way to serve, or basically a no-brainer that you should be doing this. I'm self-taught and watched some FYB videos months ago, but haven't refreshed myself on this. Any help would be useful.
Yesterday I had a match and got there early to practice my serves. I served 7 balls six times (42 serves). I counted 6 balls that did not hit the fence on the first bounce despite the fact that I was hitting first serves. The average ball hit the fence at knee height, and a couple of them hit waist height. One ball actually went through the fence and one got stuck in the fence (both at about waist height). I think its weird that I can go from creaming the fence to not even hitting the fence at all on first bounce when hitting first serves. And it doesn't seem like the pace of the ball is dramatically slower, but definitely slower nonetheless.
What do you mean by quality like the depth/placement ect. I would assume down the t hitting the service line would be the optimal slow serve to hit the fence right??
Jolly is one of the
rare ones who can clock a 109 with that set up.
I've hit over 110mph on my speed trac quite often. My best was 115mph. Does that mean I really hit over 130mph? This is with the radar behind the net on the ground. I'm a bit skeptical that the ball is really going 130mph off my racquet, but maybe it is.
I think measuring the ball right off the racquet face accurately is a bit of a tough nut to crack as well, and I don't know that I would agree with that method for use in practical training. I think the ATP does it that way because the numbers are bigger. I mean 100mph is pretty good, but when Roddick or Karlovic crack one above 140mph people really ooh and ahh.
Serve speed is really not that important once you get it to a certain level. If I place even a 95mph(speed trac measured) serve well, it's either a service winner or an ace. An well spun kicker at 80mph on the returner's weaker side is money all day long. I think speed is not worth as much as people think it is.
I have a question for those who have knowledge on good serve technique. I'm trying to be careful to word this correctly.
When hitting a hard flat serve, should the racquet motion be such that the racquet is swinging a little bit to the right of my head (such that the head of the racquet swings kinda over my shoulder), or should it be swung directly over top of my head?
One thing I already knew is that I often have a bit of an erratic toss, which explains why sometimes I can crush the ball, and other times I hit it less cleanly and softer. I think I have most of the serve motion pretty good such as the legs, body turn, and back-scratch portions, but I've just been trying to figure out what makes the diff. between between a good serve and a bad serve.
I started experimenting and noticed that when I swing the racquet head directly over my head and can hit harder serves than if its a little to the right over my shoulder. I didn't know if this is not the right way to serve, or basically a no-brainer that you should be doing this. I'm self-taught and watched some FYB videos months ago, but haven't refreshed myself on this. Any help would be useful.