The most successful tennis nations in OE?

[clout]

Tennis was drastically different prior to OE as the only nations that were considered as “big” tennis nations were the US, Australia, UK and France, however, in the last 50 years, we've since seen a very diverse field with great players coming from countless different nations worldwide. With all due respect to doubles players, I'll only be taking singles performance into consideration for this thread, but I'll compile from both the ATP and WTA to evaluate the greatest tennis nations over the last half century:

USA:
Men - 51 GS Singles Titles (12 different slam champions), 18 YE Number Ones (8 players reaching number one), 13 Davis Cup Titles + 5 RUs
Women - 69 GS Singles Titles (10 different slam champions), 14 YE Number Ones (6 players reaching number one), 15 Fed Cup Titles + 10 RUs
Notable players - Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Chris Evert, Pete Sampras, Andre Agassi, Billie Jean King, Lindsay Davenport, Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Arthur Ashe, Jim Courier, and Jennifer Capriati
Future players - Madison Keys, Sloane Stephens, Amanda Anisimova (not sure if she's Russian or American tbh) and Coco Gauff
Golden Age - 1974-2003

Australia:
Men - 20 GS Singles Titles (8 different slam champions), 2 YE Number Ones (3 players reaching number one). 6 Davis Cup Titles + 5 RUs
Women - 22 GS Singles Titles (6 different slam champions), 1 YE Number One (2 players reaching number one), 5 Fed Cup Titles + 10 RUs
Notable players - Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall, Margaret Court, Evonne Goolagong, John Newcombe, Lleyton Hewitt, Sam Stosur, and Pat Rafter
Future players - Ash Barty, Alex De Minaur, and Nick Kyrgios (yes Nick Kyrgios LOL)
Golden Age - 1950-1973

Spain:
Men - 26 GS Singles Titles (7 different slam champions), 5 YE Number Ones (3 players reaching number one), 6 Davis Cup Titles + 2 RUs
Women - 7 GS Singles Titles (3 different slam champions), 0 YE Number Ones (2 players reaching number one), 5 Fed Cup Titles + 6 RUs
Notable players - Rafael Nadal, Arantxa Sanchez Vicario, Juan Carlos Ferrero, Carlos Moya, David Ferrer, Sergei Bruguera and Garbine Muguruza
Future players - Jamie Munar
Golden Age - 1992-present

Sweden:
Men - 25 GS Singles Titles (4 different slam champions), 6 YE Number Ones (3 players reaching number one), 7 Davis Cup Titles + 5 RUs
Women - Not much success at all on the women's side
Notable players - Bjorn Borg, Stefan Edberg, Mats Wilander, Thomas Enqvist, Magnus Norman, Thomas Johansson, and Robin Soderling
Future players - Elias Ymer and Rebecca Peterson (prob the best I could come up with)
Golden Age - 1974-1992

Switzerland:
Men - 23 GS Singles Titles (2 different slam champions), 5 YE Number Ones (1 player reached number one), 1 Davis Cup Title + 1 RU
Women - 5 GS Singles (1 slam champions), 3 YE Number Ones (1 player reaching number one), 0 Fed Cups + 1 RU
Notable players - Roger Federer, Martina Hingis, and Stan Wawrinka
Future players - Belinda Bencic
Golden Age - 1997-present

Czech Republic:
Men - 12 GS Singles Titles (3 different slam champions), 4 YE Number Ones (1 player reached number one), 3 Davis Cup Titles + 2 RUs
Women - 25 GS Singles Titles (4 different slam champions), 7 YE Number Ones (2 players reached number one), 11 Fed Cup Titles + 1 RU
Notable players - Martina Navratilova, Ivan Lendl, Jana Novotna (RIP), Petra Kvitova, Hana Mandlikova, and Tomas Berdych
Future players - Karolina Pliskova, Marketa Vondrousova, and Karolina Muchova
Golden Age - 1978-1990 and 2010-present

Germany:
Men - 7 GS Singles Titles (2 different slam champions), 0 YE Number Ones (1 player reached number one), 3 Davis Cup Titles + 2 RUs
Women - 25 GS Singles Titles (2 different slam champions), 9 YE Number Ones (2 players reached number one), 2 Fed Cup Titles + 4 RUs
Notable players - Steffi Graf, Boris Becker, Angie Kerber, and Michael Stitch
Future players - Alexander Zverev
Golden Age - 1984-1999

Russia:
Men - 4 GS Singles Titles (2 different slam champions), 0 YE Number Ones (2 players reached number one), 2 Davis Cup Titles + 3 RUs
Women - 8 GS Singles Titles ( 3 different slam champions), 0 YE Number Ones (2 players reached number one), 4 Fed Cup Titles + 7 RUs
Notable players - Maria Sharapova, Marat Safin, Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Nikolay Davydenko, Svetlana Kuznetsova, Elena Dementieva, Anastasia Myskina, Dinara Safina, Vera Zvonareva, and THE ONE AND ONLY, Anna Kournikova
Future players - Daniil Medvedev, Karen Khachenov, Andrey Rublev, and Daria Kasatkina
Golden Age - 1996-2015

France:
Men - 1 GS Singles Titles (1 slam champion), 0 Number Ones, 4 Davis Cup Titles + 6 RUs
Women - 5 GS Singles Titles (3 different slam champions), 0 YE Number Ones (1 player reached number one), 3 Fed Cup Titles + 3 RUs
Notable players - Yannick Noah, Jo-Wilfred Tsonga, Amelie Mauresmo, Mary Pierce, Marion Bartoli, Gael Monfils, Cedric Pioline, Henri Laconte, and Richard Gasquet
Future players - Lucas Pouille (LOL that's the best there is tbh)
Golden Age - no offense, but I don't think they ever had a golden gen; they've been very consistent in every era though

Argentina:
Men - 6 GS Singles Titles (3 different slam champions), 0 Number Ones, 1 Davis Cup + 4 RUs
Women - 1 GS Singles Title (1 slam champion), 0 Number Ones or Fed Cups
Notable players - Guillermo Vilas, Juan Martin Del Potro, David Nalbandian, Gabriela Sabbatini, Guillermo Coria, and Gaston Gaudio
Future players - None tbh
Golden Age - 2002-present

Serbia:
Men - 16 GS Singles Titles (1 slam champion), 5 YE Number Ones (1 player reached number one), 1 Davis Cup Title + 1 RU
Women - 11 GS Singles Titles (3 different slam champions), 4 YE Number Ones (3 players reached number one), 1 Fed Cup RU
Notable players - Novak Djokovic, Monica Seles, Ana Ivanovic, Jelena Jankovic, and Mima Jausovec
Future players - None tbh
Golden Age - 2007-present

Italy:
Men - 1 GS Singles Title, (1 slam champion), 0 Number Ones, 1 Davis Cup + 4 RUs
Women - 2 GS Singles Titles (2 different slam champions), 0 Number Ones, 4 Fed Cup Titles + 1 RU
Notable players - Adriano Pannetta, Fransesca Schiavone, Sara Errani, Flavia Pannetta, Fabio Fognini, and Roberta Vinci
Future players - Jannick Sinner and Matteo Berrettini (in honor of @tennis_pro)
Golden Age - 1976-1980 and 2006-2015

Belgium:
Men - 0 slams, 0 number ones, 2 DC finals
Women - 11 slams (2 slam champions), 3 YE number ones (2 players reached number one), and 1 Fed Cup + 1 RU
Notable players - Justine Henin, Kim Clijsters, David Goffin, Yanina Wickmayer, Xavier Malisse, and Kirsten Flipkens
Future players - Elise Mertens
Golden Age - 2001-2011

Countries that deserve honorable mentions: Canada, Croatia, Japan, UK, South Africa, and China

Wow that was a lot of research . Honestly though, besides football, I can't think of another sport with as diverse talent across different nations in all corners of the globe as tennis!

 

[Third Serve]

The Golden Age of Russia is yet to come, as Meles would remind you.

 

[tonylg]

Future players - Ash Barty

Umm.. she's the current world number 1.

 

[accidental]

Grand Slam status should be changed and be given to the US open, Aus Open, Madrid and Stockholm

 

[clout]

Umm.. she's the current world number 1.

Yea but she's only 23 and when I meant by future player, I meant someone who has the potential to one day end up on the "notable players" list

 

[tonylg]

Yea but she's only 23 and when I meant by future player, I meant someone who has the potential to one day end up on the "notable players" list

It's your list, but I think she could retire tomorrow and still be more notable than a lot of those on your "notable players" list.

 

[NoleFam]

Damn, Djokovic and Seles put little Serbia among the best with just two of them. Two legendary players from the same region and from the same coach. What a saga.

It pains me to see USA with all those Slams and knowing that it will a real long time before a male player wins one again.

 

[clout]

It's your list, but I think she could retire tomorrow and still be more notable than a lot of those on your "notable players" list.

Really? I mean Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall, and Maragret Court are still considered as GOAT candidates by some, while Goolagong and Newcombe are ATGs. Hewitt also won 2 slams and 2 YE1's, while Rafter also picked up 2 slams. You can argue she belongs there over Stosur but Stosur's slam win over Serena is farrrrrrrr more memorable than Barty's slam win (which I kinda forgot she even had).

 

[clout]

Damn, Djokovic and Seles put little Serbia among the best with just two of them. Two legendary players from the same region and from the same coach. What a saga.

It pains me to see USA with all those Slams and knowing that it will a real long time before a male player wins one again.

It's crazy to think but Serbia has/had even more to give. Nole still has a couple/few slams left in him going forward imo, Seles would've won a lot more slams if not for that horrific incident and Ivanovic maybe could've bagged a couple more majors if she had a better mental game, as her technical game was clearly there (still a big fan of Ana's though). Then you throw in Jausovec who won a slam ages ago and Jankovic who reached and finished a year at number one and you've got a very talented tennis nation despite its small population compared to every other nation on this list.

As for USA, the women are in great shape moving forward, but for the men, the last 15 years have been terrible and the future doesn't look any brighter. From Arthur Ashe's historic win in 1968 allllllll the way until Roddick's 2003 USO win, American tennis were miles and miles better than everyone else. However, the moment the big four matured, Roddick pretty much became a gatekeeper and no other American has even reached Roddick-level since. It's been a DARK period for American men's tennis despite how great the first 35 years of OE tennis was for them.

 

[tonylg]

Really? I mean Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall, and Maragret Court are still considered as GOAT candidates by some, while Goolagong and Newcombe are ATGs. Hewitt also won 2 slams and 2 YE1's, while Rafter also picked up 2 slams. You can argue she belongs there over Stosur but Stosur's slam win over Serena is farrrrrrrr more memorable than Barty's slam win (which I kinda forgot she even had).

As I said, your list .. but I wasn't saying Ash more more notable than the other Aussies, rather the plethora of players below who never won a slam nor achieved number 1 status. I agree she has more to come, but she's already achieved more than any other "future" you've listed and more than a fair few of the "notables" too.

 

[Italian Stallion]

Why do Belgium only deserve an honorable mention? They have more slams than 3 of those nations. UK deserve a place there too.

 

[Lew II]

Serbia:

Future players - None tbh

Kecmanovic has only one younger player ahead of him in the ranking (FAA).

 

[Azure]

@clout Thank you for the compilation! That must have been some work! I would like to think that better data is a normalized data - how much success per population? This type of analysis interests me greatly. Maybe we can tie it up with economic factors even - like GDP and see how this has changed with time. This would also kind of give us a peek as to which nations have had specific targeted programs towards tennis evolution.

Great work!

 

[Italian Stallion]

You forgot Corrado Barrazzutti for Italy.

Sweden:

Men - 25 GS Singles Titles (4 different slam champions), 6 YE Number Ones (3 players reaching number one), 7 Davis Cup Titles + 5 RUs
Women - Not much success at all on the women's side

What a weird anomaly! Can any Swedes explain this?

France:

Men - 1 GS Singles Titles (1 slam champion), 0 Number Ones, 4 Davis Cup Titles + 6 RUs
Women - 5 GS Singles Titles (3 different slam champions), 0 YE Number Ones (1 player reached number one), 3 Fed Cup Titles + 3 RUs
Notable players - Yannick Noah, Jo-Wilfred Tsonga, Amelie Mauresmo, Mary Pierce, Marion Bartoli, Gael Monfils, Cedric Pioline, and Richard Gasquet

Gasquet and Monfils but no Henri Leconte?

 

[Italian Stallion]

Wow that was a lot of research . Honestly though, besides football, I can't think of another sport with as diverse talent across different nations in all corners of the globe as tennis!

I would say track and field.

 

[NoleFam]

It's crazy to think but Serbia has/had even more to give. Nole still has a couple/few slams left in him going forward imo, Seles would've won a lot more slams if not for that horrific incident and Ivanovic maybe could've bagged some majors if she had a better mental game, as her technical game was clearly there (still a big fan of Ana's though). Then you throw in Jausovec who won a slam ages ago and Jankovic who reached and finished a year at number one and you've got a very talented tennis nation despite its small population compared to every other nation on this list.

As for USA, the women are in great shape moving forward, but for them men, the last 15 years have been terrible and the future doesn't look any brighter. From Arthur Ashe's historic win in 1968 allllllll the way until Roddick's 2003 USO win, American tennis were miles and miles better than everyone else. However, the moment the big four matured, Roddick pretty much became a gatekeeper and no other American has even reached Roddick-level since. It's been a DARK period for American men's tennis despite how great the first 35 years of OE tennis was for them.

Seles should have won at least 15 Slams with the roll she was on as a teenager and the way she was dominating. It's awful how someone ruined not only Seles' career but the trajectory of tennis history, and he basically got away Scot free. So just imagine two players from the same region and same coach who both dominated their fields, and both should have been at least top 5 all time in their sport.

The US women are in decent shape and already had an American woman other than the sisters win a Slam recently. The men, on the other hand, are in dire shape. I don't even see a champ in the making on the horizon. I never thought I'd see the day when no American man would contend for Slams for looks like to be a really long time.

 

[Phoenix1983]

OP, why have you made the pre-and post-Cold War distinctions for the following;

USSR/Russia
Germany/West Germany
Czechoslovakia/Czech Rep

....but not the following:

Serbia/Yugoslavia

Very good post otherwise.

 

[clout]

As I said, your list .. but I wasn't saying Ash more more notable than the other Aussies, rather the plethora of players below who never won a slam nor achieved number 1 status. I agree she has more to come, but she's already achieved more than any other "future" you've listed and more than a fair few of the "notables" too.

I can see where you’re coming from but other nations simply don’t have the pedigree that Australia does in tennis, so Barty still needs to do more imo to join that exclusive list of Aussie greats. If Barty was from a country with little to no tennis background but her accomplishments remained the same, then yea she’d definitely belong on the notable players list. That’s just my opinion/take though

 

[clout]

Why do Belgium only deserve an honorable mention? They have more slams than 3 of those nations. UK deserve a place there too.

I was torn with where to put Belgium but I put them as an honourable mention since besides Henin/Clijsters, they haven’t had much success.

UK should be lucky to have an honourable mention lol. They won 1 Davis Cup and 3 slams in the last 80+ years, every UK achievement in OE is attributed to Andy Murray and prior to Andy they wouldn’t have even sniffed the HM list

Edit: You know what, I’ll add Belgium to the list, I didn’t realize they made 2 DC finals recently as well

 

[Italian Stallion]

UK should be lucky to have an honourable mention lol. They won 1 Davis Cup and 3 slams in the last 80+ years, every UK achievement in OE is attributed to Andy Murray and prior to Andy they wouldn’t have even sniffed the HM list

 

[Italian Stallion]

Serbia/Yugoslavia should now include Goran and Cilic so 18 slams for the men.

EDIT: Nevermind, now you've changed it to just Serbia.

 

[Italian Stallion]

Iva Majoli should be added to the women of Serbia/Yugoslavia.

EDIT: Nevermind, now you've changed it to just Serbia.

 

[Mainad]

UK should be lucky to have an honourable mention lol. They won 1 Davis Cup and 3 slams in the last 80+ years, every UK achievement in OE is attributed to Andy Murray and prior to Andy they wouldn’t have even sniffed the HM list

Make that 8 Slams if you include the OE ladies: Virginia Wade (3), Ann Jones (1), Sue Barker (1). Would that make you feel better about giving UK an honourable mention?

Within the last 80 years (pre OE) there is also Angela Mortimer (3), Ann Jones (2) and Shirley Bloomer (1). So added to the OE Slams that makes 14 in total.

 

[Italian Stallion]

My ranking would look something like this:

1. USA
2. Australia
3. Czechs & Slovaks
4. Spain
5. Germany
6. Former Yugoslavia
7. Sweden
8. Switzerland
9. Soviets
10. France
11. Belgium
12. Argentina
13. UK
14. Italy

It's hard to separate the last three nations. Argentina get the vote because they had Sabatini & Vilas. UK because they had Murray.

Italy now have Sinner so they'll leapfrog them soon.

 

[Italian Stallion]

Make that 8 Slams if you include the OE ladies: Virginia Wade (3), Ann Jones (1), Sue Barker (1). Would that make you feel better about giving UK an honourable mention?

Within the last 80 years (pre OE) there is also Angela Mortimer (3), Ann Jones (2) and Shirley Bloomer (1).

Britain also reached 4 Fed Cup finals. Their achievements are close to Argentina in Open era.

 

[clout]

@clout Thank you for the compilation! That must have been some work! I would like to think that better data is a normalized data - how much success per population? This type of analysis interests me greatly. Maybe we can tie it up with economic factors even - like GDP and see how this has changed with time. This would also kind of give us a peek as to which nations have had specific targeted programs towards tennis evolution.

Great work!

Thank you! Yeah this took a lot of work and research but I’m glad it came out quite well. That would be a nice way to identify which programs are doing better as it’s pretty clear nations like the US will have a higher chance at producing top level players given the nations wealth and population. Whereas nations likes Sweden, Spain and Serbia have been able to produce top level talent without a giant population or extreme wealth and power; which to me is more impressive.

 

[Ombelibable]

The Golden Age of Russia is yet to come, as Meles would remind you.

The golden age of Russia is long gone, as Joseph Stalin would tell you

 

[clout]

OP, why have you made the pre-and post-Cold War distinctions for the following;

USSR/Russia
Germany/West Germany
Czechoslovakia/Czech Rep

....but not the following:

Serbia/Yugoslavia

Very good post otherwise.

Serbia/Yugoslavia should now include Goran and Cilic so 18 slams for the men.

Decided to change it back to only "Germany," "Russia," "Serbia," and "Czech Republic" to avoid any confusion.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Decided to change it back to only "Germany," "Russia," "Serbia," and "Czech Republic" to avoid any confusion.

Ok

 

[Bender]

I would add Roddick to the notable players list

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Damn, Djokovic and Seles put little Serbia among the best with just two of them. Two legendary players from the same region and from the same coach. What a saga.

It pains me to see USA with all those Slams and knowing that it will a real long time before a male player wins one again.

Both stem from a domicile that is much larger than "little". Former Yugoslavia was around 23 mil.

For comparison, Switzerland is around 9 mil, Sweden is around 10 mil, Czech Republic 10 mil.

Out of the small countries I would say that the Czech Republic has the most impressive tennis prowess.

 

[Italian Stallion]

Both stem from a domicile that is much larger than "little". Former Yugoslavia was around 23 mil.

But the best players are from the smaller Serbian region so I think he has a point.

Out of the small countries I would say that the Czech Republic has the most impressive tennis prowess.

Maybe Czechoslovakia, considering Hingis is arguably really a Slovak too.

But I'd go for Australia. During their golden age of tennis, they had only a population of around 9-12 million people. During their last great champ Hewitt's era it was only around 18 million.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

But the best players are from the smaller Serbian region so I think he has a point.


Maybe Czechoslovakia, considering Hingis is arguably really a Slovak too.

But I'd go for Australia. During their golden age of tennis, they had only a population of around 9-12 million people. During their last great champ Hewitt's era it was only around 18 million.

That is irrelevant. Djokovic is also half Croatian.

Hingis was 6 or 7 when she started living in Switzerland.

Australia's best years were before the OE, so I am not sure how comparable that is.

 

[NoleFam]

Both stem from a domicile that is much larger than "little". Former Yugoslavia was around 23 mil.

For comparison, Switzerland is around 9 mil, Sweden is around 10 mil, Czech Republic 10 mil.

Out of the small countries I would say that the Czech Republic has the most impressive tennis prowess.

Good point but Czech population was over 15 million in 1993. Also, Djokovic and Seles are from a much smaller region in that former country, taught by the same coach. They were born a little over an hour away from each other. That's even more impressive when they won 25 Slams.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Good point but Czech population was over 15 million in 1993. Also, Djokovic and Seles are from a much smaller region in that former country, taught by the same coach. They were born a little over an hour away from each other. That's even more impressive when they won 25 Slams.

That speaks of the exquisite work of one person (Genčić) more than anything, so hardly worth talking about "nations" in that case. I agree about the remark about the Czechoslovakian population, although I freely extend the logic due to their continuing success after they split with Slovakia.

 

[NoleFam]

That speaks of the exquisite work of one person (Genčić) more than anything, so hardly worth talking about "nations" in that case. I agree about the remark about the Czechoslovakian population, although I freely extend the logic due to their continuing success after they split with Slovakia.

Of course it partly speaks to Gencic but you have to have enormous talents to be able to process and make what she teaches come to fruition. If not, anybody can pick up a racket and say I'm gonna be great like Sampras but it doesn't work that way.

 

[victorcruz]

'Murica fam get your hands up

 

[TheAssassin]

Damn, Djokovic and Seles put little Serbia among the best with just two of them. Two legendary players from the same region and from the same coach. What a saga.

It pains me to see USA with all those Slams and knowing that it will a real long time before a male player wins one again.

Forgot for a moment that Seles was discovered by the same coach. Impressive. I think Ivanisevic belongs in that group too. Although he isn't Serbian.

Wasn't a big fan but such a huge shame she wasn't allowed to fulfill her potential to the max. I think her and Novak would have had a very similar status among greats in their respective Tours now.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Of course it partly speaks to Gencic but you have to have enormous talents to be able to process and make what she teaches come to fruition. If not, anybody can pick up a racket and say I'm gonna be great like Sampras but it doesn't work that way.

Which is why I spoke of the larger Yugoslavian domicile, which was able to provide more quality with which Genčić could work.

 

[NoleFam]

Forgot for a moment that Seles was discovered by the same coach. Impressive. I think Ivanisevic belongs in that group too. Although he isn't Serbian.

Wasn't a big fan but such a huge shame she wasn't allowed to fulfill her potential to the max. I think her and Novak would have had a very similar status among greats in their respective Tours now.

You're right and I just looked it up. I didn't realize she taught Ivanesevic too. That's crazy really.

Well by the time I started watching tennis, the stabbing had just happened and I never really saw her play live on tv like some of the others. I got to see her matches and know more about her later. Her match with Capriati at the 91 USO is one of the legendary matches of that tournament. Yea it is a real shame that she and tennis were cheated that way.

 

[NoleFam]

Which is why I spoke of the larger Yugoslavian domicile, which was able to provide more quality with which Genčić could work.

You're missing the larger point. Seles was born in Novi Sad and Djokovic in Belgrade which are pretty close to each other in what is northern Serbia today. The fact that these two talents were born that close to each each other and both went on to dominate tennis like they did makes that extremely rare and impressive.

 

[Italian Stallion]

Which is why I spoke of the larger Yugoslavian domicile, which was able to provide more quality with which Genčić could work.

That is irrelevant. Djokovic is also half Croatian.

Seles and Djokovic come from Serbia. Even if it's called Yugoslavia they are still from Serbia. It's not irrelevant at all.

Hingis was 6 or 7 when she started living in Switzerland.

And from 0-6 she lived in Czechoslovakia with her Czech/Slovak mom and pop, thinking how great it was to come from the land of Tomas Berdych.

Australia's best years were before the OE, so I am not sure how comparable that is.

They've won more slams in OE as per the OP of course it's comparable. Until the split, Czechoslovakia and Australia would have had a similar level of population.
The last twenty years neither nation has been anything special.

If we were to factor in doubles, Australia would probably come out on top. If we were to factor in pre-Open era it would not be a contest.

Australia>Czechs & Slovaks in my opinion.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

You're missing the larger point. Seles was born in Novi Sad and Djokovic in Belgrade which are pretty close to each other in what is northern Serbia today. The fact that these two talents were born that close to each each other and both went on to dominate tennis like they did makes that extremely rare and impressive.

Novi Sad is closer to Vukovar in Croatia than it is to Belgrade, so you have to realise that what you say is not what you think it is. The population there has a pretty rich genes due to the different nationalities mixed on a small territory which is the reason why I say what I say about former Yugoslavia as a whole. It is also well established that their link is one person, which also helped a lot of other players to reach a pretty high level. It is still impressive.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

... bla-bla ...

 

[DSH]

Olé!

 

[NoleFam]

Novi Sad is closer to Vukovar in Croatia than it is to Belgrade, so you have to realise that what you say is not what you think it is. The population there has a pretty rich genes due to the different nationalities mixed on a small territory which is the reason why I say what I say about former Yugoslavia as a whole. It is also well established that their link is one person, which also helped a lot of other players to reach a pretty high level. It is still impressive.

Vukovar sits on the absolute eastern border of Croatia. You are comparing one city unrelated to either Seles or Djokovic and trying to make a point that doesn't stick. They were born in Serbia, not Croatia, and every country has a neighboring city that sits on the border. It has nothing to do with the point made.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Vukovar sits on the absolute eastern border of Croatia. You are comparing one city unrelated to either Seles or Djokovic and trying to make a point that doesn't stick. They were born in Serbia, not Croatia, and every country has a neighboring city that sits on the border. It has nothing to do with the point made.

You don't understand. The borders are not exact representation of even the actual population, nor is the said population homogenous within cities on either side of the borders, nor was the population structure the same as it is now, not to speak of the genetic pool, which is a whole other can of worms. And Djokovic IS with half Croatian ancestry, regardless of where he was born.

I am not "comparing" anything. I am just pointing out that what seems to you like a small place geographically can be quite varied and my example was to give you the idea that the things are not homogenous as you think and on which conclusions your whole statement about the "small part of the country" is based. It is often a mistake that the Americans, who have no idea about European geography especially of such unpopular regions, make, based on their own perceptions about the geography of their own country, where the distances are huge and mostly with well defined characteristics of the population.

You posting a map of the region is extremely funny, since it is quite obvious that I know the region well and you don't.

 

[NoleFam]

You don't understand. The borders are not exact representation of even the actual population, nor is the said population homogenous within cities on either side of the borders, nor was the population structure the same as it is now, not to speak of the genetic pool, which is a whole other can of worms. And Djokovic IS with half Croatian ancestry, regardless of where he was born.

I am not "comparing" anything. I am just pointing out that what seems to you like a small place geographically can be quite varied and my example was to give you the idea that the things are not homogenous as you think and on which conclusions your whole statement about the "small part of the country" is based. It is often a mistake that the Americans, who have no idea about European geography especially of such unpopular regions, make, based on their own perceptions about the geography of their own country, where the distances are huge and mostly with well defined characteristics of the population.

You posting a map of the region is extremely funny, since it is quite obvious that I know the region well and you don't.

Well I know you know the region better than me since the professor has already told everybody where you are from. Lol. Moving on, your point has nothing to do with what I was saying. You are talking about the whole area of Yugoslavia, which is huge, when I am talking about a small area in what is northern Serbia today. The whole area of what was Yugoslavia has nothing to do with that and Seles is not even ethnically Serbian anyway. She's ethnically Hungarian born in Serbia so I don't even know why you think what you are saying is important. I am saying, they were born in what is northern Serbia now.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Well I know you know the region better than me since the professor has already told everybody where you are from. Lol. Moving on, your point has nothing to do with what I was saying. You are talking about the whole area of Yugoslavia, which is huge, when I am talking about a small area in what is northern Serbia today. The whole area of what was Yugoslavia has nothing to do with that and Seles is not even ethnically Serbian anyway. She's ethnically Hungarian born in Serbia so I don't even know why you think what you are saying is important. I am saying, they were born in what is northern Serbia now.

The "professor" doesn't know jack ****, so assume that that information is correct at your own peril.

I am not interested in what you want to talk about, so you have got it backwards (I will come back to what you want to talk about at the end of my post). I made a point and my comments relate to that point, not to what you "want to say". Oftentimes the bureaucratic approach like the one that you often execute is based on changing the subject of the discussion resulting in time being wasted in finding out that that is so.

You wanted to equate geographical closeness to exceptional circumstances and I explained to you that geography is not representative of how local the "material" was, due to the strong fluctuations within the same geographical borders. I also used physical distances to explain to you that even on the grounds of what YOU take as a basis Novi Sad and Belgrade are not as close as you might think, never mind that that border actually DIDN'T exist at some point that is not irrelevant to the time we are talking about. You don't even realise that the fact that Seles wasn't ethnically Serbian confirms what I am saying, regardless of how close her birthplace was to Belgrade. If you don't understand that that undermines your "geographical" argument then there is nothing more that can be done here. Your argument where they were born is all but irrelevant to anything of importance in that conversation. The fact that you cling to it showcases best the said bureaucratic approach: just take a fact, take it out of context and argue incessantly about things that don't follow from it.

 

[NoleFam]

The "professor" doesn't know jack ****, so assume that that information is correct at your own peril.

I am not interested in what you want to talk about, so you have got it backwards (I will come back to what you want to talk about at the end of my post). I made a point and my comments relate to that point, not to what you "want to say". Oftentimes the bureaucratic approach like the one that you often execute is based on changing the subject of the discussion resulting in time being wasted in finding out that that is so.

You wanted to equate geographical closeness to exceptional circumstances and I explained to you that geography is not representative of how local the "material" was, due to the strong fluctuations within the same geographical borders. I also used physical distances to explain to you that even on the grounds of what YOU take as a basis Novi Sad and Belgrade are not as close as you might think, never mind that that border actually DIDN'T exist at some point that is not irrelevant to the time we are talking about. You don't even realise that the fact that Seles wasn't ethnically Serbian confirms what I am saying, regardless of how close her birthplace was to Belgrade. If you don't understand that that undermines your "geographical" argument then there is nothing more that can be done here. Your argument where they were born is all but irrelevant to anything of importance in that conversation. The fact that you cling to it showcases best the said bureaucratic approach: just take a fact, take it out of context and argue incessantly about things that don't follow from it.

Then I guess we need to go through every country on Earth and break down its origins and how the borders it has now once didn't exist. You have gone off the deep end, once again, and into an unrelated tangent. Yugoslavia is not the first country and not the last to break up, and in the process have lines blurred ethnically. That still has nothing to do with how Djokovic and Seles were born a little more than an hour away from each other which is the main point you don't seem to be able to process. I'm bored and moving on now.