Thiem vs Nadal. the Spartacus sequel

[Dolgopolov85]

No. It was all bounce height. Rewatched Thiem match this evening plus a big chunk of Madrid. Very different conditions. Madrid because of the heavy topspin battle effectively played much slower for Thiem because the was unable to hit the boomers. So many times when he hit hard against the higher bounce of the Nadal ball in Madrid it just went into RPMs slowing the ball down. Rafa excels in such an environment.

Could be weather conditions. Madrid should be playing faster than Rome and usually has. Of the three masters, it is indeed Monte Carlo that plays most like RG but Rome too is closer to MC/RG than Madrid.

 

[joekapa]

I said before that he should have skipped Madrid and when he didn't, I thought he would skip Rome. Peaking too early may yet prove to be a fatal blunder in his RG campaign. Of course, two weeks is a long time in which to work his way back into form but he really didn't need this loss.

I don't think tiredness was a factor, rather than the psychological factor.

Tennis is unique in that both must come together at the exact period you need them. They must gel at the exact time.

This is why I am hopeful for Djokovic's chances ato RG. He seems to be getting better at this stage of the clay season. Exactly when he needs it.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I don't think tiredness was a factor, rather than the psychological factor.

Tennis is unique in that both must come together at the exact period you need them. They must gel at the exact time.

This is why I am hopeful for Djokovic's chances ato RG. He seems to be getting better at this stage of the clay season. Exactly when he needs it.

Yeah, I am not saying because Nadal was getting tired (which he probably was) but because momentum doesn't last forever. He had serious momentum when he was wrapping up Madrid. Of course, there would have also been the fear that if he took the week off, then the momentum may have deserted him by the time of RG. But Nadal hasn't given much importance to Madrid in his best years so I seriously didn't understand why he decided to go for all three plus Barcelona this year.

 

[Meles]

It was easy to see that Thiem was extremely dangerous this year on clay. Don't know why so many people missed it.

As you know, I said that it should be between Nadal and Thiem on clay this year. I was busy all day getting our car repaired. I was in the middle of the first set when I get a text from a friend:

THEIM!!!
.
Well, besides the misspelling, I knew right there what happened.

I got the same kind of disbelief from him a couple months ago, before the clay season. I had said:

"Look out for Thiem on clay this year, and Nadal looks red hot again, almost as in 2013. Don't be fooled by his losing a couple matches to Fed on HCs."

So if EITHER Nadal OR Thiem win RG, I get to throw a lot of shade. I #may #become #the #new #GrannyB.

Good call. We both saw the serve game on hard, but for my part I was not sure it would matter on clay, but it sure has. Interestingly, Moya not in Rome this week and that probably cost Nadal this match.

 

[zep]

Interestingly, Moya not in Rome this week and that probably cost Nadal this match.

Don't think it has anything to do with that. Thiem played absolutely brilliantly and Nadal was slightly off. This is a huge win for Thiem's confidence but I don't think this loss will have any impact on how Nadal plays at RG. People are overreacting as usual.

 

[Lord Anomander]

The basic problem is that Thiem doesn't even take a player like Querrey seriously on clay (rather stupid) and just expects to go out and walk all over him.

While it may seem like this, I'm sure this is wrong. I've read an interview of Thiem lately and he stated that he knows any player can beat him if he isn't playing near his best (as he mentioned a player ranked 150 in the world has just invested as much into his tennis career as Thiem).

However, after playing so many matches lately he could lack some motivation or energy to play like yesterday at will.

 

[Meles]

I agree. Consistency is not enough to be considered 2nd favorite at RG. Thiem needs to show he can go all the way in a big event, cross that finish line. He needs to win Rome, not just beat Rafa. And with Djoko/Delpo messed up by the scheduling + Zverev still very young, he seems in a good position to do so. If he finds a way to botch it, well, no excuse really...

Delpo had never won a masters 1000 and won US open. Wawrinka same at Auz. Cilic. etc.

 

[joekapa]

While it may seem like this, I'm sure this is wrong. I've read an interview of Thiem lately and he stated that he knows any player can beat him if he isn't playing near his best (as he mentioned a player ranked 150 in the world has just invested as much into his tennis career as Thiem).

However, after playing so many matches lately he could lack some motivation or energy to play like yesterday at will.

Very true by young Thiem. You listening Kyrgios?

 

[PrinceMoron]

Too harsh. Thiem is talented, but he needs to adjust his game a little. For one, stop taking the ball so far back. I think Thiem has some slams in him.

Think he heard you

 

[ANDYbhGENIUS]

I agree. Thiem will probably lay down and not win the tournament. If he DOES win Rome, he's really arrived and hats off to him. But so often these young guns choke or lose after beating a great player. In order to send a real shock wave through the tour, he has at least win tomorrow and Sunday.

Well, Thiem's energy consuming style in consideration, he might want to wait sending shockwaves just yet, and save them for the French Open, seriously. As a coach (bresnik) I'd found myself with a nasty dilemma, and a luxury problem at the same time, depending on how much Nadal took out of Dominic physically and also mentally. Thiem is still young and surely wants one of the biggest ATP titles of the year.

 

[stringertom]

Isner winning would seem very out of place to me. Plus he's 32? years old or something. Would just be weird.

Isner makes a SF or better of one MS1000 every year...since 2012. This is the first time on clay.

 

[BlackSilver]

Didn't see it, but congrats to Thiem it can be decisive in it's growing as a top player.

But people shouldn't read too much on it. First because Nadal is probably tired (if not physically, then quite possibly mentaly). Second because this is a fast clay court that favours Thiem's game, especially against Nadal (it also favours Nadal, but he has other tools more developed than thiem to play on slower clay)

And Roland Garros is slower, closer to Monte Carlo, where Thiem lost to hard court specialist David Goffin and Nadal won comfortably.

 

[chjtennis]

When has he ever got a bad draw ? The only time I can recall is when he drew Djoko in the QF in 2015. Even if he draws a tough opponent by chance in an earlier round, there are always Mouriers of the world to make it easy for him

Also, things fell into places for him a lot of times, like tough opponents losing before getting to him, but he needs that more than ever now. He could've won without those before, but now he needs some help as he is getting older!

 

[chjtennis]

Isner winning would seem very out of place to me. Plus he's 32? years old or something. Would just be weird.

Isner makes a SF or better of one MS1000 every year...since 2012. This is the first time on clay.

Also, Servebots can last longer for obvious reasons, as Karlovic has proved!

 

[stringertom]

Also, Servebots can last longer for obvious reasons, as Karlovic has proved!

Also, he has only played 533 career matches thanks to a pro debut delayed by four years of college tennis. Roddick retired at a similar age to John's current age with almost 300 more matches played.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Thiem won and I was like, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Gary Duane]

Good call. We both saw the serve game on hard, but for my part I was not sure it would matter on clay, but it sure has. Interestingly, Moya not in Rome this week and that probably cost Nadal this match.

To be fair, I think it will ultimately good for Nadal at RG to have lost today. He has been looking tired, and he is no longer the same Energizer Bunny that he was a Thiem's age. I would by no means make Thiem the favorite at RG because of today.

But I WOULD consider him the 2nd most likely guy to win this year. I forget who said it, but a commie today said that although his serve is very good, it's going to get even bigger. We know that over time the serve is the last thing to go for players who are not injured, and I believe he has (yet) some tactical weaknesses on the serve. A lot of these young guys can serve up to 135 mph, and Thiem is one of them. With that pace, and with all the spin, they should be close to Fed in winning service games if they get really smart about it.

I do worry about the long-range effect on his body from his play-style though. He has such a brutal technique. He actually hits some of those hay-makers on the backhand side off the back foot. It's amazing, but it makes my shoulder ache just watching him do it! This is the one big potential advantage I see for Zverev - if his body holds up - he gets such easy power. If the serve keeps on developing, I don't even want to THINK about what it could do by his middle 20s.

For now he is just fun to watch. I'd like to see him finish at the net more. I do agree with many people that Nadal is the guy to watch for finishing at the net.

We should all keep our eyes on Novak. He looks to me a lot like Rafa did a couple years ago in terms of a slump, but I don't really see any one thing wrong, and after all he is the only guy who has beaten Nadal something like seven times on clay.

This has been a very good week for the future of tennis, imo...

 

[fednad]

Yeah that's why he played Djokovic 7 times in the worst phase of his career and Djokovic's best. Makes sense.

Call it advance preparation and planning.
Those 7 times he was giving false confidence to Joker for year 2017.
You saw already what happened during their last meeting which was the first of 2017

 

[Gary Duane]

While it may seem like this, I'm sure this is wrong. I've read an interview of Thiem lately and he stated that he knows any player can beat him if he isn't playing near his best (as he mentioned a player ranked 150 in the world has just invested as much into his tennis career as Thiem).

However, after playing so many matches lately he could lack some motivation or energy to play like yesterday at will.

Sure, anyone can beat him playing really well, when he has an off day.

Also true of even ATGs, and that's the attitude of someone is walking softly and carrying a VERY big stick.

Thiem looks more like the old Aussies on court, very mature, no huge emotional displays, very respectful to other players and officials. I love his attitude.

 

[fednad]

Are you saying Moya like Toni gives signals from the box on where to serve ?

Rafa is a family guy. He still looks up to Tio Tony only.
it actually goes like this. Moya now tells toni where to serve. Toni then signals Moya's message to NadsyBoy.
since Toni was missing, communication was hampered.
Now you will see Toni not miss a single match at VIP Frenchie Open. Not just that, he would take toilet breaks in every match only when his nephew takes medical timeouts !

 

[Sentinel]

Rafa is a family guy. He still looks up to Tio Tony only.
it actually goes like this. Moya now tells toni where to serve. Toni then signals Moya's message to NadsyBoy.
since Toni was missing, communication was hampered.
Now you will see Toni not miss a single match at VIP Frenchie Open. Not just that, he would take toilet breaks in every match only when his nephew takes medical timeouts !

I am wondering if Toni's presence at Rafa's matches means that Rafa is not completely confident/satisfied with Moya.

 

[Berasategui94]

Sure, anyone can beat him playing really well, when he has an off day.

Also true of even ATGs, and that's the attitude of someone is walking softly and carrying a VERY big stick.

Thiem looks more like the old Aussies on court, very mature, no huge emotional displays, very respectful to other players and officials. I love his attitude.

True, but he has a great presence on court, he gets the spectators engaged, not just because of his style of play but also because of his personality. I've said this before, but I think he's going to be a beloved character at RG in coming years, a bit like Kuerten was.

 

[The Green Mile]

I'm watching the match now. It's 5-1, 1st set. OMG Thiem! Brutal tennis, unreal how he's consistently executing these monstrous forehands and backhands with great depth. And the short cross-court forehand It feels like Rafa hasn't even had a chance to play his cross-court backhand with time.

Thiem vs Zverev dream final please.....

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

At RG with the right draw. This match was like a final for Thiem in Rome. I'm not sure he can pull whats needed in the SF again. I'm hoping its a resurgent Djokovic as that should get Thiem very interested and unlikely to come out flat. Thiem was horribly flat for a set and a half vs Querrey. The basic problem is that Thiem doesn't even take a player like Querrey seriously on clay (rather stupid) and just expects to go out and walk all over him. He's just not so motivated for lesser matches. In a way this may be good since Thiem's motivation seemed boundless in his match with Nadal, but it makes his level a bit unpredictable. I fear if Delpo finishes off Djokovic in three sets later today that Thiem will be too comfortable with putting Delpo through a few more sets and come out flat in their match after the Women's final.

Delpo wont win So Thiem has to play Novak. Dominic(such a nice name!) was well mentally prepared for Rafa and had decided to take his chances and play aggressive from beginning to the end. Now that he is going deep in masters and one should think that if he is playing Delpo he will give it all. He has learned his lesson about Querrey Much smarter if he took all players like a serious threat so he could cut time on court.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

I am wondering if Toni's presence at Rafa's matches means that Rafa is not completely confident/satisfied with Moya.

Moya been a very good addition to his team. Moya is not on all Rafas matches because of kids and family.

 

[cc0509]

Delpo wont win So Thiem has to play Novak. Dominic(such a nice name!) was well mentally prepared for Rafa and had decided to take his chances and play aggressive from beginning to the end. Now that he is going deep in masters and one should think that if he is playing Delpo he will give it all. He has learned his lesson about Querrey Much smarter if he took all players like a serious threat so he could cut time on court.

Thiem has to try to do the exact same thing with Djokovic, i.e. play aggressively from start to finish and blow Djokovic off the court the way Stan Wawrinka can do it to Djokovic.

What do you think about that plan @Meles?

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Thiem has to try to do the exact same thing with Djokovic, i.e. play aggressively from start to finish and blow Djokovic off the court the way Stan Wawrinka can do it to Djokovic.

What do you think about that plan @Meles?

Thats exactly what he has to do, and do it not only against ATG. It should become his new self on court. Then he would develop even more and become an even better player. When you get used to high intensity and aggressive play consistently it doesnt become that mentally demanding anymore....I hope!

 

[Red Rick]

Very true by young Thiem. You listening Kyrgios?

Kyrgios knows he can give a 50% effort and still be a top 50 player. Also, he deserves credit cause he's been giving good efforts for the last months.

 

[Meles]

That's true, he's slowly making some progress but he needs to do more such as win a Masters 1000 and then perhaps a FO if he wants to make believers out of many people.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Kyrgios knows he can give a 50% effort and still be a top 50 player. Also, he deserves credit cause he's been giving good efforts for the last months.

Absolutely. That hip injury was . Not giving up on Kyrgios yet!

 

[Pagoo]

What a win for Thiem. I hope he can build on this.

 

[Meles]

Are you saying Moya like Toni gives signals from the box on where to serve ?

Maybe he's just there to stop Uncle Toni.

 

[Meles]

While it may seem like this, I'm sure this is wrong. I've read an interview of Thiem lately and he stated that he knows any player can beat him if he isn't playing near his best (as he mentioned a player ranked 150 in the world has just invested as much into his tennis career as Thiem).

However, after playing so many matches lately he could lack some motivation or energy to play like yesterday at will.

He pretty much said this after the match that Querrey was not a clay courter and he may even say he respects player, etc, but Thiem has generally been very lazy this year in matches. He'll respond if pushed, but even for Cuevas a 2nd time in Rome Thiem was taking it easy. He almost payed the price in the Querrey match. Its like Thiem's fight or flight adrenaline that makes him so great just never happens until he's really in trouble or a big match like Nadal.

 

[Meles]

Didn't see it, but congrats to Thiem it can be decisive in it's growing as a top player.

But people shouldn't read too much on it. First because Nadal is probably tired (if not physically, then quite possibly mentaly). Second because this is a fast clay court that favours Thiem's game, especially against Nadal (it also favours Nadal, but he has other tools more developed than thiem to play on slower clay)

And Roland Garros is slower, closer to Monte Carlo, where Thiem lost to hard court specialist David Goffin and Nadal won comfortably.

Good information. I'm not so sure speed per se was the issue for their match, but it did allow Thiem's power to pressure Nadal for UEs much more. How does Barcelona fit into this mix. For me the key to Nadal keeping Thiem tamed in Barcelona and Madrid was bounce height.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

1 Andy Murray
1 Stanislas Wawrinka
2 Fabio Fognini
2 Novak Djokovic

Did Ferrer

WHAT the heck happened here ?? did RAFA tank this one because he fears Novak or did Thiem really beat him ?? if he did, that is bad bad omen for Nadal at the French .......... Unless they are on opposite side of the draw..........

Why would Nadal be afraid of Pepe? Voodoo doll? He pummeled Pepe's minion last week!

 

[Meles]

Thiem has to try to do the exact same thing with Djokovic, i.e. play aggressively from start to finish and blow Djokovic off the court the way Stan Wawrinka can do it to Djokovic.

What do you think about that plan @Meles?

Haha. Its how you usually beat Djoko and Murray, but I'd rather see a demoralizing grind down much like Kyrgios toying with Djokovic in the opening of their IW encounter. Lets just surgically pull the wings off the fly if that's all that is necessary. I'd like to see 4 UEs for Thiem and bucket loads for Djoko. Something like this for Darth Nole:

 

[Nadalgaenger]

What you saw was the difference in conditions. In Madrid both players were spinning and the conditions led to very high bounces. In Rome the bounce height was much lower and everything from Nadal was right in the Thiem wheelhouse where he really could go big. In Madrid he could just spin big. If RG bounces close to as low as Rome, Thiem will have an excellent chance in any rematch.

I will admit that Rafa was off to a typical slow start when he went down 5-1, but this is often the case (down 3-1 to Thiem in Madrid.) I'd also say Moya was missed in this match as Nadal's serving decisions were not optimum in this match.(Ridiculously good in Madrid with Moya.)

I'm almost as happy as you are about this result, but let's make one point clear--nobody has "excellent" odds against Nadal at the French!

 

[Nostradamus]

Did Ferrer

Why would Nadal be afraid of Pepe? Voodoo doll? He pummeled Pepe's minion last week!

Look at the form Novak is in now.... He destroyed Delpo in the 1st set yesterday............. Novak looks like coming back into form...........this is BAD news for nadal. he maybe running away again and faking wrist injury and pulling out of French in middle of the tournament again

 

[veroniquem]

Delpo had never won a masters 1000 and won US open. Wawrinka same at Auz. Cilic. etc.

I am not saying he cannot win RG. Just that I wouldn't consider him a favorite to do so. Right now, I consider him a heavy favorite for the Rome title. Which is why it will reflect badly on him if somehow, he manages to fall short

 

[Meles]

Delpo wont win So Thiem has to play Novak. Dominic(such a nice name!) was well mentally prepared for Rafa and had decided to take his chances and play aggressive from beginning to the end. Now that he is going deep in masters and one should think that if he is playing Delpo he will give it all. He has learned his lesson about Querrey Much smarter if he took all players like a serious threat so he could cut time on court.

I watch nearly every match. Thiem has developed a lazy streak this year. Not sure what its all about and I doubt the Thiem fully understands what motivates. Querrey match was typical.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Think he heard you

Yes, he did very well yesterday. To think some people were calling him untalented and weaponless.

 

[Meles]

I am not saying he cannot win RG. Just that I wouldn't consider him a favorite to do so. Right now, I consider him a heavy favorite for the Rome title. Which is why it will reflect badly on him if somehow, he manages to fall short

Haha. I think your baby Z is the one with the inside track to the title with an early, low energy match with Isner. I've had him in the final of this event since Murray went down. What will you do if its Djoko in the final? Will you cast him aside for the younger model?

 

[Meles]

Yes, he did very well yesterday. To think some people were calling him untalented and weaponless.

@thomasferrett

 

[veroniquem]

Haha. I think your baby Z is the one with the inside track to the title with an early, low energy match with Isner. I've had him in the final of this event since Murray went down. What will you do if its Djoko in the final? Will you cast him aside for the younger model?

I want Djoko-Sascha. That would be my dream final, don't care who wins it but Djoko is not a reliable pick these days and don't underestimate Isner on clay. He came close to beating Rafa at RG!!!

 

[tennisaddict]

Thiem has played just as much as Rafa on clay, so anything beyond this is just a huge Rome bonus. I doubt Thiem lets off the pedal here, but enormous confidence and momentum already built for RG.

Thiem practically did not even play MC. He went out early. Rafa has played way more. Plus winning tournaments taking much bigger toll than losing 4 and 1 at Barcelona.

If Thiem is really good, he HAS to back up the win of yesterday. No Excuses as Djokovic has hardly any time to even prepare for the SF

 

[racquetreligion]

many players can be lethal on their day, Thiem plays tennis like he trains which is a wasteful experience most of the time.
Even his childhood coach commented that Dominic has never once asked me when the session is over he just keeps going.
That kind of training programs a player inefficiently unlike the other tops guys that stage their training to time their peaks.

Yes Thiem can be a monster on clay or really on any surface but for how long is the problem.
Nadal can do it on almost any surface with the occasional shock loss but look at his intensity
and the percentages he maintains over the rest of the tour. Thiem is still far from the requirements
of Slams and even as a Top 10 could stay hovering around like Tsonga, Monf, Bird, Rao, NishiK etc

Some where right to state he should have skipped Madrid so apart from scheduling more efficient
training routines he will need to play less than he commits atm to avoid the flat stages

 

[Meles]

Thiem practically did not even play MC. He went out early. Rafa has played way more. Plus winning tournaments taking much bigger toll than losing 4 and 1 at Barcelona.

If Thiem is really good, he HAS to back up the win of yesterday. No Excuses as Djokovic has hardly any time to even prepare for the SF

What on earth are you whining about? Thiem was spent at the end of Barcelona final and they've played the exact same schedule since.

Thiem doesn't have to do anything after dismantling Nadal. This match could have easily been Thiem winning both sets up two breaks. These matches this weekend will be way more than Rafa has played in the last three events.

 

[tennisaddict]

What on earth are you whining about? Thiem was spent at the end of Barcelona final and they've played the exact same schedule since.

Thiem doesn't have to do anything after dismantling Nadal. This match could have easily been Thiem winning both sets up two breaks. These matches this weekend will be way more than Rafa has played in the last three events.

Clay season starts from MC no ? Or only when Thiem makes finals ?

 

[Meles]

Clay season starts from MC no ? Or only when Thiem makes finals ?

Thiem has played every week this year with only week off after Miami and before Madrid. If you're trying to say Nadal's schedule was tougher you're going to lose. Thiem played 5 matches in Rio, so that's more clay matches this season.

Thiem is just getting going with his level on clay right now. It will be higher at RG.