Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Wow. There were a lot of responses I expected to my post, but that was not one of them.
Todd Woodbridge: "Federer isn't the GOAT: but he's the best all-court player"
- Thread starter terribleIVAN
- Start date
Wow. There were a lot of responses I expected to my post, but that was not one of them.
yonexRx32
Professional
Todd..... who?...
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Other than my typo of W13 when I meant 18, I’m not sure I get your drift
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Ah, but that's the kind of post you get from some so desperate to crown their tin god Federer, that items not having a thing to do with tennis will be tossed in. That all-consuming hatred mixed with fear of Nadal and Djokovic passing Federer's majors count grows by the day.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Well fixing the typo clears up a lot lol. I would still disagree that he was somehow close to winning W 11. He was soundly beaten in that final and Djokovic had his number all year.
And the AO 14 and 19 final in particular were never going to be wins no matter the draw. Of course he was injured at AO 14 but that’s another matter entirely. And he was crushed at AO 19.
I’d also say the Wimbledon titles he lost to Federer are par for the course mostly. Similar to Nadal beating Federer at RG. Federer is simply the better grass court player. And that’s not bad luck or draw luck because if Nadal played in the 90’s assuming he even made finals he would’ve lost to Sampras. And in the 70’s-80’s he would’ve lost to Borg etc... Point is there are many players better than Nadal on grass so saying Nadal would have more Wimbledon titles if not for this or that or whatever else misses the overall point altogether. And I see a lot of people say that on this forum. In fairness Federer fans do the same for Federer re RG.
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
Delete
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* Number of Major Titles won
* Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
* Player Ranking
* Performance at ATP/WTA events
* Performance(Win/loss record) at Davis & Fed Cup events
* Records held or broken(i.e. Consecutive winning streaks)
* Intangibles(Overall contribution to tennis)
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Federer watching Nadal and Djokovic dominate the decade and finish YE#1 9 out of 10 years:
So, who from the lovely couple is Djokovic and who - Nadal?
More importantly, why are they kissing?
????????????????????
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Right but the comparison draws I gave like US17/19, if he played Anderson and Medvedev instead of Federer or Djokovic at those W/AO tournaments he would have won. When I say he had bad luck at those tournaments and good at the US, I’m talking about how the draw and other matches unfolded
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Subway Tennis
Legend
I think he is looking at it in terms of H2H and how it reflects on Fed's dominance metric. For people like Woodbridge who respect Fed's ability across all surfaces, they expect him to adapt and get the job done on any surface.
It's pretty unfair, because even though there is less surface disparity now, the way the surfaces got more homogenised was by moving away from the characteristics that suited Fed.
But putting that aside, those 3 french open wins would have been valuable as titles, but even more valuable in building Federer's dominance metric. Winning those RGs would mean wins against Nadal and they would have partially addressed the lop-sided head to head against Djokovic and Nadal in majors.
I think Woodbridge values dominance above all other factors except maybe major title count in determining GOAT.
Agree that isolating things around RG results penalises Federer because he played in an era with the greatest claycourter ever. But Fed is also playing in an era with the best hardcourt player ever, so it's tough either way.
I think the only way Fed could have flipped Woodbrodge would have been to get that dominance figure at Wimbledon, while retaining his record elsewhere, which backs up his surface variety credentials. No titles lost to Djokovic or Nadal at Wimbledon. Easier said than done when you have an age disadvantage against your two biggest rivals, one of whom may end up with 6 or 7 Wimbledon titles himself.
Instead of comparing 1 to 1, it takes Djokodal combined to overtake Federer.
Sampras + Willander > Nadal
Sampras + Wilander > Nole
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Instead of comparing 1 to 1, it takes Djokodal combined to overtake Federer.
Sampras + Willander > Nadal
Sampras + Wilander > Nole
Lol you know well that Federer has nothing more on him to be considered the GOAT. He's gonna be left behind in both number of Slams won and weeks at #1. He's still an all time great though. Huge respect to him.
Lol you know well that Federer has a better resume than Djokodal. Number speaks for itself. Federer is still the GOAT base on overall achievements and that's only thing that matters.
terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
Fed was losing to Novak at W 2014 when he was just 32.
Rafa at the same age was beating Thiem at RG 2018.
Why could Rafa overcome a 7 year disadvantage, but Roger couldn't ?
Subway Tennis
Legend
Fair point.
I guess because Rafa is a greater player and he keeps finding new solutions
Or how else to explain that Djoko trashing, no?
Anyway from the day he showed up he had Federers number and was that one dark stain on Federers resume.
And now he is favourite to beat him in slams race.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
The worst of Federer's butt-kissers used to beat on the majors count as the end-all determining alleged GOAT-hood, and in typically goal-post shifting fashion, when Nadal matches Federer, in comes useless trivia to salvage Federer's "standing" when he was being passed in several of the categories his rear-polishers dig up. ..and of course, he failed to win the Grand Slam, so he was never a GOAT, except to those falling to their knees for him.
D
Deleted member 775898
Guest
Well tbh Thiem is nowhere near Djokovic's level and Rafa on clay is simply that much better than Federer on grass.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I agree with Todd. IMO, overall, today's big are equal accomplishment wise.
Benben245
Banned
“Gender doesn’t stop at male and female, because of hermaphroditism and genetic abnormalities like kleinfelter syndrome, we now know there are atleast dozens upon dozens of genders.”-Todd Woodbridge
“You can talk about the CIA killing Kennedy, fake moon landings, Gulf of Tonkin propaganda campaign to get the US public to back the Vietnam War, Russia “collusion” in the 2016 election. BUT, under no circumstances may you allege, suggest or ponder on YouTube that the 2020 election was compromised in any way, including making any insinuation of voter fraud.”-Todd Woodbridge
“Pink starbursts are good, but yellow is the goat”-Todd Woodbridge
“You can talk about the CIA killing Kennedy, fake moon landings, Gulf of Tonkin propaganda campaign to get the US public to back the Vietnam War, Russia “collusion” in the 2016 election. BUT, under no circumstances may you allege, suggest or ponder on YouTube that the 2020 election was compromised in any way, including making any insinuation of voter fraud.”-Todd Woodbridge
“Pink starbursts are good, but yellow is the goat”-Todd Woodbridge
beard
Legend
Bolded... Lol at some Fed fans... calling him goat for a decade now transferred to there is no such thing as goat... Just one, big, fat loooool....Apart from his rather flimsy argument why Federer isn't the GOAT (not that there is such a thing), he actually acknowledges that Federer's ability as a tennis player is second to none.
Considering that the GOAT debate is one over inexistent title that is actually pretty close to actually giving it to him.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Bolded... Lol at some Fed fans... calling him goat for a decade now transferred to there is no such thing as goat... Just one, big, fat loooool....
How bad is it when I can bulldoze you in just one link?
There is no GOAT
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
Bolded... Lol at some Fed fans... calling him goat for a decade now transferred to there is no such thing as goat... Just one, big, fat loooool....
You can't just take one fan and assume he has said that.
Assumption is the mother of all fekk ups.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
The futility of pronouncing one ultimate achievement or one ultimate representative in any sport/field of knowledge has been evident multiple hundreds of times, so anyone with half a brain is acutely aware of that and wouldn't take it seriously. These young grasshoppers crack me up with their insistence.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
A lot of of good points. As far as the head to head, well former pros have been saying it for a while now and that doesn't look good for Federer in the greatest debates. I think even if he lost the Slam head to heads, if he had kept both overall to head to heads closer, it wouldn't be that much of a big deal to them. Lendl got killed in the Slam head to head with Becker but won the overall head to head so it kind of offset it. I do think Federer had the dominance though, but just didn't dominate those two, especially Nadal even when he was at his peak.
I just think his point about the 3 RGs is confusing and makes me scratch my head. Most of the ATGs in the OE didn't even win one RG, and if Federer needs to win 3 to showcase his dominance, then what does that mean for Nadal and Djokovic on the flip side? Very good point about Wimbledon though. If he had dominated them both there, with less losses, it would have made his case stronger now with them inching closer.
AceSalvo
Legend
Well, Nadal can’t be the GOAT after racking up all those clay titles and not winning a single WTF. Just getting to 21 will make him the slam leader but hardly anywhere close to GOAT.
So, Woodbridge is correct that there is no out right GOAT at the moment. And Fed is the closest to being the Greatest All Court Tennis of all Time.
That’s pretty good.
So, Woodbridge is correct that there is no out right GOAT at the moment. And Fed is the closest to being the Greatest All Court Tennis of all Time.
That’s pretty good.
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RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
i know you're probably trolling but just in case, there's there a bit of a difference between Thiem and Djokovic lmao
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
djokovic will almost certainly end as the MOAT (most accomplished of all time) but there is realistically no GOAT due to all of the inter and intra era comparison factors that are argued about ad nauseam here
its rare to have a clear inter-era GOAT, like say wayne gretzky in hockey, where even when making era adjustment calculations to totals he still crushes the competition
its rare to have a clear inter-era GOAT, like say wayne gretzky in hockey, where even when making era adjustment calculations to totals he still crushes the competition
terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
On clay, one can easily make the case they're equals.
Thiem leads Novak 2-1 at RG. He's clearly a clay specialist, whereas Novak is a fast surface specialist.
Fed is clearly a grass specialist, much more than Novak. Yet Novak bested him since 2014.
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Tennis_Hands
Banned
alexio
G.O.A.T.
hc major-twice a year, grass major-once a yearFeddie has much more HC Majors, Jeebus.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Did you think that I didn't know that, and, if not, why I might be saying what I am saying anyway?
PrinceMoron
Legend
Medvedev is going to rack up wins and not even bother celebrating. Can’t imagine any of RF ND RN are looking forward to meeting him anytime soon.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
The crazy thing is should Rafa win RG 2021, he will only need two more to sit at 16 RG, which is doubble the number of Wimbledons won by Roger (or AOs won by Novak, should he stop at 8)
Think about it for a minute.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I know, it's pretty unreal to think about.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
A typical case of apples and oranges, this.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah makes sense, but it should be said that USO 17 and 19 draws for Nadal were ridiculously easy in the extreme. That's like me saying Fed would've won W 19 if he played injured Cilic instead of Djokovic. Can't constantly expect that type of good luck.
terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
He had to contend with WTF's two best record holders, so he has some excuses.
How about neither Roger or Novak holding an Olympic title?
Of course no. The Serena ass-kisser and Fed hater will say the Grand Slam doesn't applies to Serena but only to Federer. Go figure.Steffi Graf GOAT?
I think Federer will end his career as 3rd best player of last 20 years or so.
He may be considered the best all courter of last 20 years or so but we haven't had true all courter in "power baseline era".
Last 20 years, only GOAT I can be sure is Rafa on clay.
Other than that, I don't know if they are GOAT.
Tennis has changed too much from early 2000s and can't really compare these players with other eras.
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