Why has Roger been so much more successful against Nadal in his mid/late 30s compared to his 20s/early 30s?

[clout]

Between 2004-2014, when Federer was between the ages of 22-32, he went 10-23 against Nadal and 2-9 at majors.

However, since turning 34 in 2015, Federer has a 6-1 record against Rafa while being 2-1 against him at majors; all between the ages of 34-37.

The way he’s been able to turn this h2h around at such an old age is easily one of his most impressive accomplishments despite the overall h2h still being comfortably in Rafa’s favour

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

Nadal got slower. Doesn’t retrieve balls like he used to. Really helps Federer.

Plus Fed became so old he doesn’t remember anyone either so it’s perfect for his mental game.

Though scientists believe at 40 15 he remembered who Djokovic is. Unfortunate

 

[mwym]

1. Federer developed part of his talent late, only once Nadal and Djokovic started getting closer to top of the mountain

2. Nadal declined on father time (and out of clay) more/faster than him due to more physically demanding playing style

 

[The Blond Blur]

Nadal's game relies more on his athleticism. Once they both started declining, Nadal was affected more because the cornerstone of his game began to crumble. Both of them have made great changes to their games to remain competitive (and the next gen guys suck), but Nadal is a natural defender whereas Federer has made his career being aggressive. Also, Nadal has a good to great serve for his game, but Federer has a top 5 all time serve to win him free points.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

Nadal's game relies more on his athleticism. Once they both started declining, Nadal was affected more because the cornerstone of his game began to crumble. Both of them have made great changes to their games to remain competitive (and the next gen guys suck), but Nadal is a natural defender whereas Federer has made his career being aggressive. Also, Nadal has a good to great serve for his game, but Federer has a top 5 all time serve to win him free points.

For some reason Federer decides to not be Breakpointerer as much against Nadal either.

Just another illogical Fred thing.

 

[The Blond Blur]

For some reason Federer decides to not be Breakpointerer as much against Nadal either.

Just another illogical Fred thing.

I have a theory that Fedal made a deal where Rafa is letting Fedr catch up in the h2h and Fedr is letting Rafa catch up in majors. Then they both rejoined the player's council to take out Joker

 

[TennisFan3]

One word: NEO BACKHAND.

And a bigger racquet and Ljubicic.

In other words, Fed made hard changes to his game, equipment and his coaching. Something that Nadal has been loathe to do.

The fact that Fed beat Nadal in AO 2017, Wimb 2019 and completely turned around their rivalry in the last 2-3 years is a testament to his greatness - and a failing of Nadal as well.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

I have a theory that Fedal made a deal where Rafa is letting Fedr catch up in the h2h and Fedr is letting Rafa catch up in majors. Then they both rejoined the player's council to take out Joker

I believe you’re right. Next step is to lace Djokovic food with gluten

 

[Third Serve]

A number of reasons:

1. Federer reshaping his game under Ljubicic to hit through the backhand much more often and to take it on the rise. This tactic works much better against Nadal as it reduces time for him to set up his shots while minimizing one of his weaknesses against Nadal (the slice).'

2. Nadal changing his gameplan under Moya to hit the ball flatter than he used to. As such, his looping-topspin-to-the-backhand strategy that he usually puts into action had to be partially sacrificed. Hence, it hurts his matchup against Federer.

3. Nadal's legs have left him. He can't run down Fed's winners like he used to. Now Fed's winners are actually winners.

4. Federer is running into Nadal more often on hard courts than anywhere else. A welcome change from the over 9,000 times they met on clay before 2014.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

I have a theory that Fedal made a deal where Rafa is letting Fedr catch up in the h2h and Fedr is letting Rafa catch up in majors. Then they both rejoined the player's council to take out Joker

It actually says PEPE on the wall there

(Also under PEPE my real name Im not joking)

This The Sign of all Signs.

 

[USO19]

Simple answer: Because Federer's a better player now than he was when he was younger.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

One word: NEO BACKHAND.

And a bigger racquet and Ljubicic.

In other words, Fed made hard changes to his game, equipment and his coaching. Something that Nadal has been loathe to do.

The fact that Fed beat Nadal in AO 2017, Wimb 2019 and completely turned around their rivalry in the last 2-3 years is a testament to his greatness - and a failing of Nadal as well.

*Facepalm*

 

[CYGS]

Fed's peak is overrated and the post-prime Fed is nearly as good.

 

[The Blond Blur]

I believe you’re right. Next step is to lace Djokovic food with gluten

Unfortunately, I'm in the same boat as Joker. I once ate some gluten laced food and then skittles. Can confirm the rainbow does not taste the same the 2nd time around

 

[The Blond Blur]

It actually says PEPE on the wall there

(Also under PEPE my real name Im not joking)

This The Sign of all Signs.

That's crazy

Spoiler

Or is it

 

[Third Serve]

One word: NEO BACKHAND.

And a bigger racquet and Ljubicic.

In other words, Fed made hard changes to his game, equipment and his coaching. Something that Nadal has been loathe to do.

The fact that Fed beat Nadal in AO 2017, Wimb 2019 and completely turned around their rivalry in the last 2-3 years is a testament to his greatness - and a failing of Nadal as well.

Says "one word:"

Says two words.

Adds another sentence of words.

Rephrases the above in two sentences of even more words.

Adds a conclusion with a lot more words.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

That's crazy

Spoiler

Or is it

Well, its a sign for me. My name got two lines under it. Something important I got to do I dont know yet. Pepe, yes he will be USO. What shall I do, and when will I get instructions for this scheme? I got to sleep. Just send me the info teleportacly/teleportally/telepatically (how do I write that word? first time). Thanks!

 

[KINGROGER]

Nadal slowing down not being able to retrieve balls as easily.

 

[Rafa24]

4. Federer is running into Nadal more often on hard courts than anywhere else. A welcome change from the over 9,000 times they met on clay before 2014.

Hard court thing isn't really true. Nadal had a huge outdoor hard advantage over fed until 2017. Indoor hard fed has always whipped him.

Really it was the 2017 season Fed has had tons of success against nadal not like it's been the last 5 years.. 2017 and it began with a 5 setter at AO that was on a faster court that helped him and rafa was a break up in the 5th. Then he beat rafa bad the next 4 encounters that year.

This year rafa trounced him at FO. Wimby was close and Fred served great.


So yes fred is up 2-1 in slams the last few years.

AO Fed in 5 sets.
FO Nadal in 3.
Wimby Fed in 4.

Could easily be 2-1 the other way.

 

[Rafa24]

Fed takes the ball earlier and looks to end points fast. And Rafas speed is so much slower than he used to be.

 

[Third Serve]

Hard court thing isn't really true. Nadal had a huge outdoor hard advantage over fed until 2017. Indoor hard fed has always whipped him.

Really it was the 2017 season Fed has had tons of success against nadal not like it's been the last 5 years.. 2017 and it began with a 5 setter at AO that was on a faster court that helped him and rafa was a break up in the 5th. Then he beat rafa bad the next 4 encounters that year.

This year rafa trounced him at FO. Wimby was close and Fred served great.


So yes fred is up 2-1 in slams the last few years.

AO Fed in 5 sets.
FO Nadal in 3.
Wimby Fed in 4.

Could easily be 2-1 the other way.

Until 2017? They haven't played on indoor hard courts since Basel 2015 final and they actually played quite a few indoor matches before 2013.

Up until 2015 (the first match where Federer turned it around), Federer and Nadal had played 15 matches on clay, 15 matches on hard, and 3 matches on grass. Considering how much of the season is made up of hard courts, this is hard to swallow.

Until Fed exited his prime after 2009, they met 11 matches on clay, 6 matches on hard, and 3 matches on grass.

Be aware, though, that this is only part of the reason why Federer has improved his record in the last couple of years. There are other, bigger reasons which is why I listed this fourth and last of all.

 

[tonylg]

Federer doesn't play Nadal the same way as he used to. In fact, Federer doesn't play as he used to against anyone. He saw the writing on the wall with slow courts and poly strings and adapted his natural game to one better suited to those conditions. He also of course completely shocked Nadal with the half volley backhand drives at AO 2017.

He's now a grinder who sometimes attacks, rather than an attacking player who sometimes grinds.

He got an oversized racquet and after Carter, Lundgren, Roache, Annacone (WTF) and Edberg .. a coach more from the baseliner's mould. Rafa has slowed a bit, but the biggest changes to his game have been improved volleys and serve, which were definitely weaknesses but for the above reasons of little help in the current matchup.

 

[Fridge]

Both have clearly decline in physicality and this impacts Nadal's game much more than Fed's

 

[Rafa24]

Until 2017? They haven't played on indoor hard courts since Basel 2015 final and they actually played quite a few indoor matches before 2013.

Up until 2015 (the first match where Federer turned it around), Federer and Nadal had played 15 matches on clay, 15 matches on hard, and 3 matches on grass. Considering how much of the season is made up of hard courts, this is hard to swallow.

Until Fed exited his prime after 2009, they met 11 matches on clay, 6 matches on hard, and 3 matches on grass.

Be aware, though, that this is only part of the reason why Federer has improved his record in the last couple of years. There are other, bigger reasons which is why I listed this fourth and last of all.

I am saying roger hasn't had all kinds of success against rafa lately. 2017 was the only time since 2007 he has beaten Rafa more than once in a year. Let that sink in.....

Save your "roger was out of his prime in 2009" crap.

 

[Third Serve]

I am saying roger hasn't had all kinds of success against rafa lately. 2017 was the only time since 2007 he has beaten Rafa more than once in a year. Let that sink in.....

Save your "roger was out of his prime in 2009" crap.

Out of his prime after 2009. More accurately, I'd say the AO in 2010 was tournament that concluded his prime. I'm being very generous here, saying that Roger had a 6-year prime.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Out of his prime after 2009. More accurately, I'd say the AO in 2010 was tournament that concluded his prime. I'm being very generous here, saying that Roger had a 6-year prime.

And many, many Fed fans will argue his prime was 2003-2007. I believe this and have watched him since 1998. He had mono in 2008, it was NOT his prime and is laughable to suggest it.

 

[Third Serve]

And many, many Fed fans will argue his prime was 2003-2007. I believe this and have watched him since 1998. He had mono in 2008, it was NOT his prime and is laughable to suggest it.

Like I said, I am very generous. I differentiate between his absolute best level of play (which started at the Masters Cup in 2003 and ended at the AO in 2007) and his overall prime period in which he was definitely ahead of the field (which includes the rest of 2007 through to AO 2010) but I have more lenient criteria for it.

What's the reasoning behind this? I'm using the same criteria used by Djokovic fans to define his prime period, which was apparently 2011-2016 even though he was clearly not at his best in 2012-2014. If we used your criteria, Djokovic was only prime for two and a half seasons, 2011 and 2015-2016, which is an absurd oversimplification. To put it simply, I use different meanings for peak and prime. Let's just leave it at that.

EDIT: In case I was unclear, yes, I agree that Federer played quite a bit better from 2004-2007 than he did in 2008-2009. But because of my looser definition of prime (not peak), 2008-2009 fits right in.

 

[And 5 Others]

*Facepalm*

You should've said One Word: *Facepalm*

 

[mental midget]

Hard court thing isn't really true. Nadal had a huge outdoor hard advantage over fed until 2017. Indoor hard fed has always whipped him.

Really it was the 2017 season Fed has had tons of success against nadal not like it's been the last 5 years.. 2017 and it began with a 5 setter at AO that was on a faster court that helped him and rafa was a break up in the 5th. Then he beat rafa bad the next 4 encounters that year.

This year rafa trounced him at FO. Wimby was close and Fred served great.


So yes fred is up 2-1 in slams the last few years.

AO Fed in 5 sets.
FO Nadal in 3.
Wimby Fed in 4.

Could easily be 2-1 the other way.

it's a cocktail of everything that's been mentioned. larger racket has made the bh more dependable, and he is stepping in more. that helps a lot. nadal definitely a bit slower (but honestly he's still got wheels.) more hard shots to the nadal fh to get short balls coughed up.

and on the FO thing this year--yeah, he got straight setted BUT i have to say the wind was kind of nuts and played to nadal's advantage, and honestly, federer won his share of exchanges and to me at least it didn't have the feel of a blowout, scoreline notwithstanding. i think on a day w more normal conditions i would give roger at least a chance to come out on top, even on the clay.

 

[ABCD]

“I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practiced for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August, 2015)


Question:

In 2003 you won your first title in Dubai. How much chances would the Federer of 2003 have against the Federer of today?

Answer from Federer:

Not many chances I believe. The game has extremely changed. It is more dynamic, faster and has become somewhat ruthless. The players are more athletic and the material makes the game faster. I myself have become better. In fact, I had to become better because I had new opponents and new challenges. Tennis on this level doesn’t allow you stagnancy. (March, 2019)

 

[MeatTornado]

“I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practiced for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August, 2015)


Question:

In 2003 you won your first title in Dubai. How much chances would the Federer of 2003 have against the Federer of today?

Answer from Federer:

Not many chances I believe. The game has extremely changed. It is more dynamic, faster and has become somewhat ruthless. The players are more athletic and the material makes the game faster. I myself have become better. In fact, I had to become better because I had new opponents and new challenges. Tennis on this level doesn’t allow you stagnancy. (March, 2019)

This only makes sense as an answer if you believe Roger improved simply by playing more and Rafa didn't.

 

[Breakpointerer]

Nadal's extraordinary foot speed and athleticism is what terrorised Fed back in his prime. Now with Nadal having gotten slower, Fed doesn't have to hit 3,4,5 winners to end a point. Also, racket switch helps him take the ball early and be aggressive.
Not playing him on clay helps as well, obviously.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Plus Fed became so old he doesn’t remember anyone either so it’s perfect for his mental game.

Wut da fak??!!

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

but Federer has a top 5 all time serve to win him free points

No he doesn't have

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

It actually says PEPE on the wall there

(Also under PEPE my real name Im not joking)

This The Sign of all Signs.

Hello silvie
Find my real name from my username if you can

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Simple answer: Because Federer's a better player now than he was when he was younger.

Give me whatever you smoke

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Fed's peak is overrated and the post-prime Fed is nearly as good.

Egg is overrated

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Nadal's speed has declined. So has Federer's, but his footwork and racquet skills are better in isolation so it works to his advantage. Context is also important, it's not like Nadal ever had a huge advantage off clay outside of the dull period when Fed was in a funk and Nads was peaking (3 very close wins, 1 competitive and 2 beatdowns in Miami), so didn't take much of a change for Fedr to reverse it. The Miami '17 win is the magical one since Nadal did have a great H2H advantage there (2-1 and the loss was a near win against a genuine peak fred), so that was very unexpected. The rest is understandable considering the movement changes.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

You should've said One Word: *Facepalm*

I've played too much Scrabble to risk such a statement.

 

[sureshs]

Bigger frame

 

[Pheasant]

A much more modern racket is a huge reason. The other is Nadal’s huge loss of foot speed.

Nadal from 2004-2007 could run down a lot of Fed’s cannon forehand shots; even on grass.

 

[Xavier G]

Roger's finally believed that he's a better player than Rafa everywhere but clay (which is true), got more confidence with the racket change, improved his tactics vs Nadal and Rafa lost some speed.

#20GOAT.

 

[stringertom]

Bigger frame

Explains ewer “success”...and AYCE buffet bankruptcies.

 

[WarrenMP]

After AO 2017, Fed doesn't have the same hang ups with playing Nadal as before.

 

[AceSalvo]

97inch. That’s why. Still does not work on clay.

We can safely attribute Fed’s non-clay losses to Nadal pre 2017 because of the 90inch.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Both players are playing better than ever, it just so happens that peak for peak Federer is better than Nadal, hence 6-1 since the 2015 season. That's the narrative, right?

 

[Pheasant]

Nadal has declined more than Fed has, which is really strange, given their ages. But soon, Fed will fall off of a cliff. I expect Nadal to start slaughtering Fed fairly soon. But I hope that I am wrong.

 

[SaintPetros]

Nadal has declined, while Fed played the best tennis of his life against him. Unfortunately, while it's sufficient to score some squeakers against a limping Nadal, he still comes up short against Novak.

 

[Pheasant]

Nadal has declined, while Fed played the best tennis of his life against him. Unfortunately, while it's sufficient to score some squeakers against a limping Nadal, he still comes up short against Novak.

//////////////

 

[titoelcolombiano]

So much more successful? lol - he won 5 in a row, four of them in 2017. Fair play but one season doesn't make a career.