Indian Wells insanely slow court speed: official stats which prove it

BeatlesFan

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Take a look at this graphic which Rob Koenig was discussing last night. IW is rated at a 24... PATHETICALLY SLOW!!!!!!


DATLA-TABLE.jpg


The entire article discussing this dismally plodding court is here:
http://www.firstpost.com/sports/ind...ves-he-is-rolling-back-the-years-3337580.html
 
tennis_pro

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
I don't even have to look at their ratings. Anyone who isn't blind noticed that these courts are like mud. I wonder if IW could be even slower than Miami somehow because as slow as IW is I don't remember it ever being as slow as this year.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
tennis_pro said:
I watched Wawrinka play Nishioka whos like 1,7 m tall, he was ripping the ball close to the lines and couldnt hit through him.
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it became slower as the day progressed. Court/conditions seemed faster and in general ok during Novak-Kyrgios and Fed-rafa matches.
but it did seem very slow in the Stan-Nishioka match , which was a bit sad to see ..
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
abmk said:
it became slower as the day progressed. Court/conditions seemed faster and in general ok during Novak-Kyrgios and Fed-rafa matches.
but it did seem very slow in the Stan-Nishioka match , which was a bit sad to see ..
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Air temperature drops quickly in the desert in the evening. Weekend play will be during the day and the heat continues so overall conditions will be a bit mixed come then. Thiem-Wawa and likely Feddy-Nicky will be evening and so as slow as it gets.;)
 
MasturB

MasturB

Legend
As I've said countless times.

Miami conditIons are slower because the humidity. The court is stickier and it makes the balls slower.

Indian Wells is in the desert. Dry heat but cool air (anyone that's been to San Diego and LA will know the difference compared to say somewhere like Atlanta or Orlando where humidity is insane).
 
90's Clay

90's Clay

Banned
It proves Nadal is completely washed up if he can't even Make it a match against his pigeon on slow outdoor hards. Yet some no namer Johnson who most of us never heard of gave him a tougher challenge
 
B

BigServer1

Legend
90's Clay said:
It proves Nadal is completely washed up if he can't even Make it a match against his pigeon on slow outdoor hards. Yet some no namer Johnson who most of us never heard of gave him a tougher challenge
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Lol a no namer ranked 27th in the world, with a first serve consistently 135+ MPH, and a huge forehand. If Rafa had that serve it likely would have been 7-6 7-6 last night as well.

I want Rafa to win the French open for a few reasons. Climbing rapidly on my list of why is how it would make you look even more foolish and sad than you do now.
 
P

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
vanioMan said:
What's wrong with that? ATP cannot make every court super fast. And they shouldn't - variety is needed. Plus, IW has always been slow.

I guess some people always find something to complain about and are never satisfied.
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My recollection of IW dates to 80s and it's always been the slowest, highest bouncing HC and fast through the air. Nothings really changed and why clay court players like Noah, Chang, Mercier and Courier have done well. Though the lack of deviation through the air still assists volleyer, until poly killed that style.
This is TW Forum, is meant to be a big winge archive.
Miami is slow court surface and slow through air, but it allows more aggressive hitting as the topspin has more effect through denser medium as long as you have the power it bring it. Unfortunately the WTA hit flat and don't have the power to so it's bit crud on chick side.
 
T

timnz

Legend
If the Organizers want it to be that slow, why don't they just change it to being a clay court? Same with Miami. Move away from being a pretend clay court to a real clay court.
 
Jackuar

Jackuar

Hall of Fame
timnz said:
If the Organizers want it to be that slow, why don't they just change it to being a clay court? Same with Miami. Move away from being a pretend clay court to a real clay court.
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Because I guess slow HC is not same as clay? It's not the speed that's the only character of a surface. For example. You can slide on clay not here. There's got to be some more the pros will tell. Playability, bounce, anything else...
 
mikeler

mikeler

Moderator
I played there on an outside court in 2013. The courts are VERY gritty. It didn't take me long to realize that a kick serve was more effective than a hard serve at times.

The conditions in the desert are very different from day to night. When I was there in October, I think the high and low temperature difference was 40 degrees. That makes a HUGE difference in court conditions.

I've also played on red clay a few times. While red clay and IW both accentuate spin, these are still hard courts. You won't mistake the two...
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
90's Clay said:
It proves Nadal is completely washed up if he can't even Make it a match against his pigeon on slow outdoor hards. Yet some no namer Johnson who most of us never heard of gave him a tougher challenge
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This no name Johnson playing well that would have won a slam in the 90s.
 
zagor

zagor

Bionic Poster
90's Clay said:
It proves Nadal is completely washed up if he can't even Make it a match against his pigeon on slow outdoor hards.
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He lost to the same pigeon (in straights) in the same venue in 2012 when he (Nadal) was in great HC form which shows us that as usual, you're talking out of your ass. Nadal has advantage over Fed in Miami (in a direct match-up), not IW.

90's Clay said:
Yet some no namer Johnson who most of us never heard of gave him a tougher challenge
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Yes, top player struggling against a no-namer (who was playing great BTW) then raising his game against better opponents never happens in tennis.
 
4-string

4-string

Professional
timnz said:
If the Organizers want it to be that slow, why don't they just change it to being a clay court? Same with Miami. Move away from being a pretend clay court to a real clay court.
Click to expand...

We need more clay tournaments, no? [emoji12]
 
T

timnz

Legend
vanioMan said:
What's wrong with that? ATP cannot make every court super fast. And they shouldn't - variety is needed. Plus, IW has always been slow.
Click to expand...
vanioMan said:
I guess some people always find something to complain about and are never satisfied.
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The problem is the don't make ANY court fast let alone super fast.

Your absolutely right, we need variety, hence we need the introduction of some fast courts, to balance the predominance of slow and medium slow courts.
 
D

Drlexus

Banned
Lots of mistakes in posts above. Yes indian wells is a slow hard court. But the overall conditions are pretty fast due tonthe thin air. The desert dry heat means the ball reallybflies through the air in daytime almost like playikg at altitude. Miami is far slower overall as even if that court is marginally quicker the humidity makes the balls heavy and conditions are really slow hence djokovic and murray being so dominant there.

Nadal is so successful in indian wells as he thrives on lively conditions where the ball flies as it maximises his spin. On clay he is bery vulnerable if its damp and the balls are heavy.

So while indian wells might be a really slow court overall conditions are helpful to the more aggressive player if its hot. At night though if cold it can be painful to watch
 
Sardines

Sardines

Hall of Fame
The Court Pace Index accounts for average environment (humidity, temperature etc) and surface ball speed. Having played there a few times right after they resurface for BNP Paribas annually, the plexipave is certainly Cat 1 slow. It's very grippy and sometimes with the desert wind, sand builds up. I remember there was once in the 90s when temps dropped so much I had to go to the proshop to buy a warm up suit to continue playing.
 
DNShade

DNShade

Hall of Fame
IW has always been the SLOWEST MOST GRITTY harcourt surface. It actually is a special topcoat invented just for IW and used only there. I've hit on the courts many times. The reason for it is to help play in the extra dry sometimes very hot conditions. So it can be a different experience in the fact that the ball moves really fast through the air - especially in the day when it's hot - and then checks up and bounces high when it hits. Nothing different this year other than it's been a bit hotter than usual and not much wind.
 
T

Tyler-James

Rookie
DNShade said:
IW has always been the SLOWEST MOST GRITTY harcourt surface. It actually is a special topcoat invented just for IW and used only there. I've hit on the courts many times. The reason for it is to help play in the extra dry sometimes very hot conditions. So it can be a different experience in the fact that the ball moves really fast through the air - especially in the day when it's hot - and then checks up and bounces high when it hits. Nothing different this year other than it's been a bit hotter than usual and not much wind.
Click to expand...

71bf4186f2fd86fe7990f814bb956dd6d77d68ee46e6de9d981f02268d87422f.jpg
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
vanioMan said:
What's wrong with that? ATP cannot make every court super fast. And they shouldn't - variety is needed. Plus, IW has always been slow.

I guess some people always find something to complain about and are never satisfied.
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What is wrong is that there isn't a single fast court. They are medium fast, at best.
 
-NN-

-NN-

G.O.A.T.
The big difference is the recent changes made to Paris and London. Both were made significantly faster in 2016 as compared to 2015. Interestingly, IW has gone slightly the other way. I like that, because then we can have a very slow HC tournament or two, some medium paced ones (Toronto and Cinci) and some faster paced ones (Shanghai, London YEC). What we still need is a straight up fast HC big event. Obviously, grass should be fast.
 
C

chrisingrassia

Professional
Then that has absolutely nothing to do with the courts.

Meles said:
Air temperature drops quickly in the desert in the evening. Weekend play will be during the day and the heat continues so overall conditions will be a bit mixed come then. Thiem-Wawa and likely Feddy-Nicky will be evening and so as slow as it gets.;)
Click to expand...
 
6

6-3 6-0

Guest
What was RLA's court pace index this year? and the other AO courts for comparison? Official info please. No BS.
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
chrisingrassia said:
Then that has absolutely nothing to do with the courts.
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Higher daytime temperatures still have a large impact which I don't think is registering for you:
https://fogmountaintennis.wordpress.com/

Its much more than just court grit that determines things play for a given match. Homogenization has much more to do with the prevalence of top spin in the game than attempts by tournaments to adjust surfaces. All are important factors.
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Having attended one of Kyrgios earlier matches this week against Zeballos, I wouldn't want the courts any faster. Kyrgios totally overmatched Zeb with 135+ mph serves that were mostly untouchable.
I don't pay to watch serve fests which IW would become with faster courts. Even the ladies were hitting 105 mph serves in the day matches.
I think they have it set just right to allow for rallies and shot making without turning things into grind fests.
 
L

LETitBE

Hall of Fame
6-3 6-0 said:
What was RLA's court pace index this year? and the other AO courts for comparison? Official info please. No BS.
Click to expand...
Koenig was saying the AO court speed index (includes surface,balls,air etc)was 45.7. So in the fast category but only just.
 
T

timnz

Legend
Surely though, don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong when a hard court (Indian wells) event is the same court speed as the Monte Carlo clay court championships ?
 
L

LETitBE

Hall of Fame
timnz said:
Surely though, don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong when a hard court (Indian wells) event is the same court speed as the Monte Carlo clay court championships ?
Click to expand...
YEP,but then again it depends who you ask....Fed would prefer courts faster than fast if you know what i mean,other players not so much.
 
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