EloQuent
Legend
Yeah I mean, Graf has the CYGS, overall consistency and dominance, time at #1, and is only 1 behind on the slam count.
Roger Federer: Serena Williams may well be best overall tennis player ever
- Thread starter Thriller
- Start date
pame
Hall of Fame
Thank you. Was trying to remember his name but Some-zheimers clicks in these days
I remind you you were the one who introduced the heavyweight boxers as an element of your analogy.
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
Correct.
She has more titles, more major finals, more weeks at no. 1, etc.
AND SHE RETIRED AT 30!
Now, I'm not saying she'd win 10 majors after 30 like Serena did in a super-weak era, but if Steffi were picky she could have played 5 more years and picked up perhaps 2-5 more majors. Certainly AO/RG in some of those years were ripe for the picking. And Graf was always dangerous at Wimby.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
Firstly, in most cases the meaning of a word is its use, as Wittgenstein sez. Words do not have some magical inherent and unchangeable meaning separate from how we use them.
And the way you want to use the word 'best' is in no way any more logical or correct than the way, say, a weightlifting or boxing fan would use it. A 70kg man and a 100kg man snatching 140kg may be precisely the same in terms of the absolute weight on the bar, so to you they may be equal, but no reasonable person would say that it's therefore also the same quality weightlifting.
Zhilady
Professional
No, you did. Getting confused, aren’t we?
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Yeah right. Women like these:
Loving that comedy matchpoint. Seriously mentioning Margaret Court is an insult to Martina, Chrissie and Steffi let alone Serena. Which is why she was never mentioned until Serena passed them all ....
Zhilady
Professional
Universal usage, yes. A group of people using a word wrongly, however, wouldn’t change the actual meaning of the word.
Be that as it may, at least I am being consistent in my usage of words. People saying Williams is “better” than Federer would need to grant that Vergeer is “better” than Williams to be consistent. Can’t wait to see where you stand on this point.
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
I also think you can't sleep on Evert either, considering she missed RG 3 times in her absolute prime because of World Team Tennis and also considering that she basically didn't play the AO.
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
It shows the silliness of the current obsession with the slam record. In ten years time, let alone 20, no-one will look at the slam numbers and say "Oh, Federer got one more than Nadal, he must have been better" or vice versa.
There is no way (assuming Serena doesn't win more slams) that you can conclude she must have been better than Steffi purely on that basis, or that Margaret Court was better than Serena.
pame
Hall of Fame
You're right, I did - in the context that you cannot argue that a person is less able or deserving of an accolade because they have won no titles in a different competition. Actually, boxing is the most a propos example to negate your theory.
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Humblerer
As has already been said, what's he supposed to say when backed into a corner and asked to qualify his statement? Why can't someone just called someone the greatest of all time and it be left at that? This comparison thing is absurd. You don't even have to compare women directly to men (a thing too stupid to even fathom) just within their own respective fields, in what way do her accomplishments outshine his own?
As has already been said, what's he supposed to say when backed into a corner and asked to qualify his statement? Why can't someone just called someone the greatest of all time and it be left at that? This comparison thing is absurd. You don't even have to compare women directly to men (a thing too stupid to even fathom) just within their own respective fields, in what way do her accomplishments outshine his own?
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
IMO there is just no intellectually consistent argument that makes Serena #1.
If you consider only majors, it has to be Court.
If you consider other factors, Graf blows her away, and Evert and Navratilova have strong cases, especially Evert because of the AO and WTT/RG issues.
I actually think the fact that Serena's best stats came post-30 hurt her overall. 196 weeks at #1 after age 31? Give me a break.
Zhilady
Professional
It's funny, then, how you don't mention female boxers in your best analogy.
An argument to authority, huh? In that case, I'll make an argument to the people and anoint Federer the best of all time. Back to square one.Anyhoo, since I don't pretend to be in any way as accomplished as either Williams or Federer is, I will bow to Federer's assessment. Certainly he has more accomplishments and history on which to base his opinion. That is my envoi
oldmanfan
Legend
All 3 of you have some points. But I agree mostly with @Zhilady.
Regardless, when talking tennis GOAT (if we HAVE to pick one), objectively there are only 2 candidates currently:
Roger Federer or Esther Vergeer. No other.
GOAT = Roger Federer, (if tennis competition is truly OPEN, regardless of age/gender/physical-condition, and all compete TOGETHER.)
GOAT = Esther Vergeer, (if tennis competitions are separated, and relative-achievement is paramount, kudos @Zhilady ). She went unbeaten in 470 matches. Yea, THAT good!
To suggest Serena Williams is to try to be PC (and fail) bc in doing so will have completely disparaged Esther Vergeer. ATP tennis is tennis.. WTA tennis is tennis.., but wheelchair tennis is NOT tennis?
tsktsk
Incognito
Legend
captainbryce
Hall of Fame
Really? Cause here is a video of her doing exactly that!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/daniel...atest-at-oscars-party-but-is-he/#7c710a8f27e1
Legend of Borg
G.O.A.T.
man, it would suck to be a female pro athlete and actually win stuff
you're always gonna be second best and your performances are always gonna be lower quality, no matter how good you are in your field
you're always gonna be second best and your performances are always gonna be lower quality, no matter how good you are in your field
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
go to a zoo and ask to be presented a goat. Then come to TTW and ask for the same. In both cases you will be presented a hairy creature, but that's about where the similarity would end.
EloQuent
Legend
An exho?
Zhilady
Professional
Exactly. If acknowledging and stating that men are just better than women at Tennis is sexist, doesn't it then make it ableist to suggest that able-bodied Tennis is just better than disabled Tennis?
captainbryce
Hall of Fame
11 of her majors were Australian Open’s when the Australian Open wasn’t even treated like a major at all. With no real competition, the bigot’s numbers are horribly inflated.
Zhilady
Professional
Are you pretending to be stupid? "Goat" is a word. "GOAT" is an acronym. They stand for different things and mean different things.
go to a zoo and ask to be presented a goat. Then come to TTW and ask for the same. In both cases you will be presented a hairy object, but that's about where the similarity would end.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Think of it like this: if an 8th grader got a higher mark in a math test than me, a college student, yes, he would be greater in his field, but our fields are so different that you can't really compare.
Plamen1234
Hall of Fame
*Female tennis player.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Why? Best of 5 is easier. You can play really badly for a lot longer before you lose. The women don't get that luxury in a slam.
Best of 3. You better start fast and be mentally tough.
D
Deleted member 756486
Guest
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
Again, that's fine if you don't think the majors are the end all be all.
But you can't argue on one side that Court's 24 are inflated, while also arguing that Serena's 23 are way better than Evert's 18 (who was basically playing 3 majors a year and voluntarily skipped 3 RGs in her peak years for money reasons) or Graf's 22 (who retired just after turning 30 and smokes Serena in most other stats).
Also, pls don't denigrate the great Mrs. Court.
Zhilady
Professional
128-player draws are also easier. Easier to qualify, so you have more chances to win.
Hey, I can make stupid arguments, too!
Incognito
Legend
When did Serena say that?
EloQuent
Legend
Okay she might be better than Tomic tho
Zhilady
Professional
D
Deleted member 756486
Guest
Would Tomic tank against Serena if his masculinity and pride was on the line? I'm rather intrigued by this matchup..
Zhilady
Professional
If Tomic and Williams played competitively, the question wouldn't be, "Who will win?" The question would be, "How many bagels for Williams?"
D
Deleted member 756486
Guest
Lol hoepfully Bernie finishes counting his millions soon and we can set this thing up.
captainbryce
Hall of Fame
Hopman Cup. Technically yes an exhibition since it doesn’t grant ranking points, but usually treated like a serious event since it’s a team competition and tuneup for the Australian Open. Players that enter Hopman Cup usually skip out on Brisbane or Sydney.
Actually, they take this tournament quite seriously. Go to 14:25 in the video. They actually have to call the referee after an argument with the umpire about who should get the point.
oldmanfan
Legend
Zhilady
Professional
To be fair to Serena, it's easier to count Tomic's 10 million than it is to count Williams's 170.WHAaaAT??!
Nobody's better than Tomic...
at counting millions....
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
And even if you wrote them exactly the same, 'goat', they would refer to two entirely different meanings in the two different contexts of a tennis forum versus some animal-related forum.
Is this supposed to be constructive?
You've spouted some very elementary falsehoods, first suggesting that the meaning of a word is somehow independent from use, and then backpedaling into suggesting that meaning/use is somehow universal and not context-dependent. Both these claims are entirely silly, and should be quite easy to find counterexamples of for anyone with half a working brain — and yet I'm the stupid one, sure.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Federer would be mentally tough against her competition too.
oldmanfan
Legend
True story, but my point stands. You can have more millions than Tomic, but you simply CANNOT count them better.
Zhilady
Professional
I could refer to donkeys as solar systems and solar systems would then refer to two entirely different meanings in the two different contexts. Doesn't mean I am using the right word to describe donkeys, in this or any context.
If it stops you from making deliberately stupid posts, yes.
Not what I said. I meant people using a word wrongly wouldn't change its meaning.
Again, not what I suggested. I just said universal usage could dictate the meaning of a word.
I didn't say you were stupid. I asked if you were pretending to be.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Yeah she was 16 years old ranked 50 something and played a competitive set against a former top 40 male player. Not a bad start to a career and of course she has improved loads from then.
Most women wouldn't have been able to win a single game. More testimony to the Williams greatness.
Zhilady
Professional
That's an interesting way of twisting things.
"I didn't know it would be that difficult. I played shots that would have been winners on the women's circuit and he got to them very easily," said Serena.
"They wouldn't have had a chance against anyone inside the top 500 because today I played like someone ranked 600th to keep it fun," was Braasch's assessment.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Federer wants to avoid sh*tstorms, smart man.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Last edited:
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Of course it's not clear to you, what a surprise.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
She has never faced anyone as mentally tough as Nadal or Djokovic in her career not even close.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Sharapova?
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