2nd Serve Under EXTREME pressure: Kick, Slice or Top Slice?

[Deleted member 120290]

I've seen players from 3.0 - 5.0 double fault under extreme pressure so many times, I can almost predict a DF when server misses the 1st serve.

Normally my kicker 2nd serve is reliable. It's nothing special but I DF only 1x or 2x per set and that is usually because I go for it on 2nd serve when up 40-0.

But in a 7-7 TB situation in a tournament, I overspun the 2nd serve kicker into the net.
Luckily that did not cost us the match but I have seen many others do the same with the match on the line.

During Laver Cup, one of the announcers remarked that Fed is DF'ing more on crucial points as Sampras did during his final playing years. So DF'ing on crucial points may increase with age.

If the kicker is hit with not enough racket head speed and spin, the serve can go long.
If you hit with too much spin, then the ball goes into the net or you can shank the ball.

In a normal situation, the 2nd serve kicker is a very high % play.
However when the pressure is on and you get tense, I'm thinking kick serve may not be the best % play.
Even if you get it in, if you don't hit with much pace, it will sit up for your opponent to clobber.

With slice or top slice, you can hit it hard, medium or soft and not have to worry about overspinning or underspinning the serve. Also you rarely shank the ball. Slice or top slice serve stays low, so even if slow it is not sitting up for a spanking.

So under extreme pressure, what should be the go-to 2nd serve? Kick, slice or top slice?

 

[LeeD]

Wouldn't it depend which you hit best at the time and which you feel most comfortable hitting..says the dummy who df's 7 times in one singles set.
Been playing once a month and today df'ed ONCE in 4 doubles sets.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

Wouldn't it depend which you hit best at the time and which you feel most comfortable hitting..says the dummy who df's 7 times in one singles set.
Been playing once a month and today df'ed ONCE in 4 doubles sets.

Which type of 2nd serve did you hit today?

 

[jacob22]

what about a 4th option? Underhanded serve.

 

[ByeByePoly]

slice wide deuce court

kicker wide (but 3ft-ish from corner) ad court

 

[Deleted member 120290]

what about a 4th option? Underhanded serve.

It may work but if I win that way, others may look at me like someone who knocked down an old lady to get the last piece of cake.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

slice wide deuce court

kicker wide (but 3ft-ish from corner) add court

Hmmmm...slice wide deuce and kick wide ad court give you a longer hitting area and higher %. Ok, I like it.
1st ever liked ByeByePoly post in 8,193 posts

 

[Raul_SJ]

Hmmmm...slice wide deuce and kick wide ad court give you a longer hitting area and higher %. Ok, I like it.
1st ever liked ByeByePoly post in 8,193 posts

slice has much lower clearance over the net. too risky at 7-7 and extreme pressure.
at my 3.5 level i'd go with top slice as practically nobody has a kick serve at that level.
as a returner, i prefer the wide serve to my forehand and often hit angles. i have more trouble with top-slice in the middle of the box or the t.

 

[RetroSpin]

as a returner, i prefer the wide serve to my forehand and often hit angles.

Yes. Against an aggressive returner, you can't just groove in a slice to his wheelhouse. The wide slice has to be a surprise second serve, not your go to option.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hmmmm...slice wide deuce and kick wide ad court give you a longer hitting area and higher %. Ok, I like it.
1st ever liked ByeByePoly post in 8,193 posts

That hurt.

It's not complicated for me ... I seldom miss those serves, and seldom make any other serves.

I played some singles today (sort of ) and hit a couple of aces deuce flat T, and add slice T in 2+ hours. I had retired deuce flat T ... used to hit a 100ish mph which was quite effective at 5' 7-8" in singles. But then hit middle age USTA doubles ... and high percentage 1st serve in worked much better than low percent flat serve.

I do like hitting a flat serve with my V1 Pros ... might make a comeback.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes. Against an aggressive returner, you can't just groove in a slice to his wheelhouse. The wide slice has to be a surprise second serve, not your go to option.

Not for me ... no one in 4.5 ... and now 4.0 hurts me with ros very often on my deuce wide slice. Their "wheelhouse" is moving right.

 

[IowaGuy]

I played some singles today (sort of )

Ball machine doesn't count as singles

 

[ByeByePoly]

Ball machine doesn't count as singles

Mine should ... it's not predictable. Don't **** me off ... I might have another dream where you are sitting with Chael.

 

[mikeler]

Most of the time I use the kick serve. Sometimes guys have trouble with the slower ones than the harder hit ones, so it depends on the opponent. There may be the rare opponent who does not like high forehands but most of the time going to the backhand is the safe play. I'll throw in the slice serve at times to the forehand looking for a cheap ace. I'll use the harder topspin 2nd serve to jam the aggressive returners who like to hug the service line.

 

[Shroud]

Kicker here. No question. But more importantly i makes sure i start the motion very loose and with a smiley face so hopefully i will hit the serve i want.

Like the other poaster i can double fault being too agressive.

Also ad court is usually the most important points and kick has longer court on that side and less risk.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

If your toss is Right, then Kick is never a double fault.

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[mucat]

dink

 

[Shroud]

A better question is what serve do you hit when @OnTheLine receives your serve at the service line???

Twist for that one!!

 

[OnTheLine]

A better question is what serve do you hit when @OnTheLine receives your serve at the service line???

Twist for that one!!

LOL ... yeah, I really do that, and really am willing to put myself in harms way. You would be surprised how many men simply freak out and end up DFing when I position myself on the service line.

I either get a dig-half-volley return back or they fault better than 50% of the time ...

For me, if under pressure on 2nd serve:
Deuce: mangled top slice to the body
Ad: Slice wide in singles ... Slice T in doubles

 

[Shroud]

LOL ... yeah, I really do that, and really am willing to put myself in harms way. You would be surprised how many men simply freak out and end up DFing when I position myself on the service line.

I either get a dig-half-volley return back or they fault better than 50% of the time ...

For me, if under pressure on 2nd serve:
Deuce: mangled top slice to the body
Ad: Slice wide in singles ... Slice T in doubles

Great minds. I love to take some serves from the service line, even on 1st serves (which dont go so well sometimes) so as a point of personal pride I dont crack when people do it back to me.

Has to be a typo. You mean: Topslice to mangle the body.

Body is probably an underused serve at the rec level.

 

[OnTheLine]

Great minds. I love to take some serves from the service line, even on 1st serves (which dont go so well sometimes) so as a point of personal pride I dont crack when people do it back to me.

Has to be a typo. You mean: Topslice to mangle the body.

Body is probably an underused serve at the rec level.

I have never had a male return from the service line ... but plenty of ladies have started there ... another opportunity for a body serve

No really not a typo. That is the name my regular coach calls it. He has no idea how I am doing it mechanically because it is neither a kick nor a standard top slice, and from watching my motion he thinks the ball shouldn't be going in at all. But I can land that better than 80%, it is not very fast but returners seem to hate it.

It has slice and from receiver's view bounces to the right, it has some top spin and bounces up above the waist but below the shoulder on a female.
I hit it from slightly behind me striking ball at about 7 o'clock
If I aim on deuce court slightly towards the T it bounces into receiver's body.

It is my 2nd favorite serve to deuce, T serve is my favorite and is less taxing on my shoulder ... and yes, body serves at rec level seem to be effective.

 

[FiReFTW]

I think you just need to trust yourself and go for it (swing fast and loose), you shouldnt even think about DF because u get tense and then u will miss.

Trust yourself, and if you happen to miss...then you miss, your not a robot, everyone misses from time to time, sh*t happens, move on.

 

[HuusHould]

I think you just need to trust yourself and go for it (swing fast and loose), you shouldnt even think about DF because u get tense and then u will miss.

Trust yourself, and if you happen to miss...then you miss, your not a robot, everyone misses from time to time, sh*t happens, move on.

I think this is right, if you're too tight you'll miss any type of serve. I often say to myself exactly what you refer to here "If you miss you miss" , make it a good miss if there's such a thing, i.e. one that will put them under pressure if it goes in. Admittedly the guy over the other side of the net is going to be nervous too at this point and they're often praying that you don't put it in the box at 7-7 in the breaker, so you have to assess what the returner is capable of and how tight they're likely to be, but as a general rule err on the side of being too aggressive and back yourself, trying to relax as much as possible. Nothing's more disappointing than trying to nurse the ball into the box and still missing! When I'm really tight and not serving well, I'll often just aim for the middle of the box and rip the guts out of the ball (kicker), under pressure it'll generally err to one side or the other and the spin will generally bring it down inside the horizontal/lateral service line.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I've seen players from 3.0 - 5.0 double fault under extreme pressure so many times, I can almost predict a DF when server misses the 1st serve.

Normally my kicker 2nd serve is reliable. It's nothing special but I DF only 1x or 2x per set and that is usually because I go for it on 2nd serve when up 40-0.

But in a 7-7 TB situation in a tournament, I overspun the 2nd serve kicker into the net.
Luckily that did not cost us the match but I have seen many others do the same with the match on the line.

During Laver Cup, one of the announcers remarked that Fed is DF'ing more on crucial points as Sampras did during his final playing years. So DF'ing on crucial points may increase with age.

If the kicker is hit with not enough racket head speed and spin, the serve can go long.
If you hit with too much spin, then the ball goes into the net or you can shank the ball.

In a normal situation, the 2nd serve kicker is a very high % play.
However when the pressure is on and you get tense, I'm thinking kick serve may not be the best % play.
Even if you get it in, if you don't hit with much pace, it will sit up for your opponent to clobber.

With slice or top slice, you can hit it hard, medium or soft and not have to worry about overspinning or underspinning the serve. Also you rarely shank the ball. Slice or top slice serve stays low, so even if slow it is not sitting up for a spanking.

So under extreme pressure, what should be the go-to 2nd serve? Kick, slice or top slice?

during serving practice, when grooved, no pressure, fresh, i've hit 50/50 kickers (especially if choosing a conservative target, like right third of the box vs. an aggressive target (eg. short near sideline, or deep corner))
but i find that when i do DF, it's because of a combination of typicaly 2 things:
1. stress (ie. 8-8 third set tb), returner already cheating to run around bh, etc... generally makes me a bit tense.
2. fatigue (legs tired... ie. i start guiding the ball vs. really exploding up and into it)

in terms of clearance over the net, IMO, kicker or plain topspin (albeit more predictable), is the best during pressure. even knowing opponent may clobber it.
i am however, practicing a heavy slice... with similar clearance... knowing that if my opponent is expecting the kicker on a big point, i might just be able to even ace them with a decently placed, ok pace, heavy slice to the fh (ie. because they jumped to run around the bh)

 

[Big Bagel]

The only time I consider not going for a kicker in an extreme pressure second serve is if I'm playing a lefty and my top slice has been working well, both going in with pace and spin and being effective against the returner. Otherwise, it's a kicker 100% of the time. The kicker gives you great net clearance and, if it well, won't be crushed back by your opponent. Those things you mentioned at the beginning like not swinging fast enough, or using too much/not enough spin, can happen with any spin serve. But none of them except the pure topspin can match the net clearance of the kicker, and generally none of them are as effective as the kicker.

 

[HuusHould]

For me this is the most choke prone part of the game, hitting a second serve that absolutely must go in or you lose the match. The biggest issue I have in this situation is the ball toss. I've started to just practice the toss, so going through the motion, tossing the ball up and not hitting it. I think the fact that you're not hitting the ball allows you to really focus on the toss and makes you more aware of what's going on. It seems that when my toss goes astray it's usually due to rushing the initial part of the serve, I have the classical action that Wayno Elderton says should have a "slow and then go rhythm", so slow at the start and finishing with a bang. I know this is off on a tangent, but does anyone know any ball toss drills? I do one where you go through the action, toss the ball up and you have to try to catch the ball in your tossing hand without moving the arm at all, you get feedback on how you went by feeling how far and in what direction you had to move your tossing arm in order to catch the ball.

 

[VacationTennis]

I usually go for a top slice because I just want to get it in, and for me a kick has a higher chance of going wrong in a pressure situation because it requires a couple extra variables like further toss and more commitment. So I just back it off to a 3/4 top and visualize a smoother, relaxed, almost warm up motion to get that ball in!

 

[Deleted member 120290]

I usually go for a top slice because I just want to get it in, and for me a kick has a higher chance of going wrong in a pressure situation because it requires a couple extra variables like further toss and more commitment. So I just back it off to a 3/4 top and visualize a smoother, relaxed, almost warm up motion to get that ball in!

Since creating this thread on Monday, I have had to serve 2nd serves under pressure in 5 situations.
I hit 3/4 speed, topslice to middle of the court on both deuce and ad sides.

I did not miss any 2nd serves.
Although they were just so-so serves, under extreme pressure my opponents were not able to do much with the returns.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

I doubt these 2nds landed deep and with much spin! Sounds like an overhit by the opponent vs anything you did.

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[Deleted member 120290]

I doubt these 2nds landed deep and with much spin! Sounds like an overhit by the opponent vs anything you did.

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As I stated, these were mediocre serves but in a very tight, pressure situation.
In a money match with intraclub ladder points, I was serving at 4-4, no ad.
When receiving even a mediocre serve at a crucial no ad point, it is not easy to for the opponent to hit a quality return over the net, inside the lines while avoiding the net person.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

...others may look at me like someone who knocked down an old lady to get the last piece of cake.

And this is frowned upon in some cultures?

 

[Deleted member 120290]

And this is frowned upon in some cultures?

Believe it or not, yes in some Asian cultures.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

As I stated, these were mediocre serves but in a very tight, pressure situation.
In a money match with intraclub ladder points, I was serving at 4-4, no ad.
When receiving even a mediocre serve at a crucial no ad point, it is not easy to for the opponent to hit a quality return over the net, inside the lines while avoiding the net person.

Good point. In doubles, I try to get A lot of 1st serves in "basically pitch to contact" philosophy with my net guy knowing my serve location and reacting accordingly.

For 2nds, there's nothing more effective than keeping the ball landing near the serve line with some overspin: hard to be assertive on that return!

Btw, Braves are going to own the Brooklyn Dodgers coming up.

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[Keendog]

@HuusHould look at this vid https://tennisevolution.com/simple-way-to-improve-serve-toss/

 

[Traffic]

Since creating this thread on Monday, I have had to serve 2nd serves under pressure in 5 situations.
I hit 3/4 speed, topslice to middle of the court on both deuce and ad sides.

I did not miss any 2nd serves.
Although they were just so-so serves, under extreme pressure my opponents were not able to do much with the returns.

I need to revisit my topslice as a 2nd serve. I've been going for the kicker on my 2nd serve and in tight situations, I've blown it recently in MXD. To add to the burn, they are typically to the female player that usually don't burn and rocket ROS back at me. I think I have something mental going on about "don't DF to the female"

I'm going to have to go back to a simple topslice for a while and get that grooving...or actually, I should probably take about 30min twice a week and just work on serves. Just as I need to some groove time for my strokes, I think I need some groove time for my serves.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I just have a simple topspin second serve. Sometimes it has a bit of kick, sometimes it has a bit of slice and mostly it just pops up. I don't change anything under pressure. My second serve is always a topspin serve to the BH. I hit a high percentage of first serves so it's rare that people get grooved to my second serve. In fact I probably get more winners off that serve since it looks easy to hit but the bounce height, spin and different pace kind of throws people off.

First serve is either flat or slice. In doubles, mostly down the middle and in singles, mostly to the BH's

 

[NLBwell]

During Laver Cup, one of the announcers remarked that Fed is DF'ing more on crucial points as Sampras did during his final playing years. So DF'ing on crucial points may increase with age.

I wonder if is a slight drop in racket head speed, or at least a loss in ability to consistently maintain racket head speed. This would cause a loss of spin, at least intermittantly.

 

[Wise one]

I've seen players from 3.0 - 5.0 double fault under extreme pressure so many times, I can almost predict a DF when server misses the 1st serve.

Normally my kicker 2nd serve is reliable. It's nothing special but I DF only 1x or 2x per set and that is usually because I go for it on 2nd serve when up 40-0.

But in a 7-7 TB situation in a tournament, I overspun the 2nd serve kicker into the net.
Luckily that did not cost us the match but I have seen many others do the same with the match on the line.

During Laver Cup, one of the announcers remarked that Fed is DF'ing more on crucial points as Sampras did during his final playing years. So DF'ing on crucial points may increase with age.

If the kicker is hit with not enough racket head speed and spin, the serve can go long.
If you hit with too much spin, then the ball goes into the net or you can shank the ball.

In a normal situation, the 2nd serve kicker is a very high % play.
However when the pressure is on and you get tense, I'm thinking kick serve may not be the best % play.
Even if you get it in, if you don't hit with much pace, it will sit up for your opponent to clobber.

With slice or top slice, you can hit it hard, medium or soft and not have to worry about overspinning or underspinning the serve. Also you rarely shank the ball. Slice or top slice serve stays low, so even if slow it is not sitting up for a spanking.

So under extreme pressure, what should be the go-to 2nd serve? Kick, slice or top slice?

Don't miss your first serve to begin with. If you do, just put a little more spin on the second serve, and swing a little harder.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

I wonder if is a slight drop in racket head speed, or at least a loss in ability to consistently maintain racket head speed. This would cause a loss of spin, at least intermittantly.

Could be loss of racket head speed. Could also be declining fine motor skills.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

Don't miss your first serve to begin with. If you do, just put a little more spin on the second serve, and swing a little harder.

I usually get a good pct of 1st serves in on pressure points. Still it is not 100% so I have to hit some 2nd serves under extreme pressure.