Agassi is better than Nadal at the USO

[CHillTennis]

Andre: 2 wins, 4 losses to PETE, 2 to Lendl, 2 to Fred, 1 to Courier, Chang, Ferrero

Doll: 2 wins, 2 vultured wins, 2 bad losses to Delpo/extremely injured, 1 loss to Djovak, Murray

AA had much tuffer cumpetishon that didn't allow him to vulture undeservedly but sternly kept him from winning 5 titles of his own despite contending consistently for 18 years, whereas Doll had a laughably small prime window at the USO in comparison (2008-13 if not just 2010-13) but was able to disgraceful boost his numbers thanks to the woat era that followed, where two barely decent showings in a decade became two extra titles absent proper opponents. Ergo, any objective & discerning tennis observer must acknowledge Agassi's significant superiority and lament the deplorable mugzeit allowing Nadal to amass fake greatness, amirite or amirite.

Nadal 4. Agassi 2. Case closed.

 

[Zara]

Agassi is finally leading the poll. Most pleasant news.

 

[Kralingen]

No version of Nadal is beating 95 F or 01 QF Pete at the USO, and given that those were Dre's 2nd and 3rd best runs, I'm even more hard pressed to see '13 or '17 rafa dethroning Pete on those fast low bouncing courts.

OTOH 95 and 01 Agassi could 100% beat 10/13 Djokovic (and subsequently, anyone Nadal has ever faced at the USO bar maybe 11 Djokovic)

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Nadal fan voting Agassi. Nadal’s USO title count flatters him, in a similar way that his Wimbledon count probably slightly underestimates him. Until 2022 I would have said he had good luck at the USO to balance out the bad luck at the AO.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal fan voting Agassi. Nadal’s USO title count flatters him, in a similar way that his Wimbledon count probably slightly underestimates him. Until 2022 I would have said he had good luck at the USO to balance out the bad luck at the AO.

It really does

 

[TheFifthSet]

No version of Nadal is beating 95 F or 01 QF Pete at the USO, and given that those were Dre's 2nd and 3rd best runs, I'm even more hard pressed to see '13 or '17 rafa dethroning Pete on those fast low bouncing courts.

OTOH 95 and 01 Agassi could 100% beat 10/13 Djokovic (and subsequently, anyone Nadal has ever faced at the USO bar maybe 11 Djokovic)

I don’t think he was nigh-unbeatable in ‘95. He claims to have woken up on the day of the final in total agony, and played at “38%” - sour grapes perhaps, but Dre wasn’t that great in the final.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I don’t think he was nigh-unbeatable in ‘95. He claims to have woken up on the day of the final in total agony, and played at “38%” - sour grapes perhaps, but Dre wasn’t that great in the final.

Still better than Djokovic 2010/13 USO

 

[TheFifthSet]

Still better than Djokovic 2010/13 USO

yeah, probably

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

yeah, probably

Made 3/4 sets competitive. Positing 2010/13 USO Djokovic > 1995 USO Agassi would necessarily imply 2010/13 USO Nadal > 1995 USO Sampras, and that's a big pile of bull as any decent person knows.

 

[NatF]

Interesting take. now obviously the difference between 12 and 09dal physically is stark, but why such a big difference between 13 and 10 Nadal?

There was the movement, serve, and the aggression difference in 2010 which makes him slightly better but 13 Nadal was pretty strong all told and had the slice to neutralize as well. He also looked to go DTL and while he had the ropey period from mid 2nd to mid 3rd where he went into a shell, he finished the match quite strong. I would think there's a bigger difference between 09/12 AOdal than 10/13 USO.

Quite an obvious difference in explosiveness between 2010 and 2013 Nadal both in terms of movement and ballstriking. Djokovic took the racket out of his hands when he stopped missing every other forehand in a way he just couldn't have been able to do against 2010'dal. Luckily for him 2013'ovic was running on like 60% intensity and capitulated once Nadal made a couple of clutch points.

 

[RS]

These > signs were hardly a thing on the forum till like a couple years ago.

 

[Roubaixcomp]

Nadal has 4 Us Opens. Agassi has 2 and never came close to dominating. Nadal is in a different league above Agassi at US Open.
Sampras v Nadal is a better question. Very marginal but I'd have to just give it Sampras. Connors though the USo GOAT as he won on 3 surfaces there.

 

[Roubaixcomp]

Quite an obvious difference in explosiveness between 2010 and 2013 Nadal both in terms of movement and ballstriking. Djokovic took the racket out of his hands when he stopped missing every other forehand in a way he just couldn't have been able to do against 2010'dal. Luckily for him 2013'ovic was running on like 60% intensity and capitulated once Nadal made a couple of clutch points.

60% intensity? Lol. That match was literally for no.1 that season. Djokovic was at 100% intensity as was Nadal. The whole year was riding on it. You are correct to highlight the Djokovic FH as Nadal has always targeted it during Major finals as it does break down under extreme pressure. Ashe is probably the most pressure cooker stadium in tennis when it's full and the atmosphere is cranked up.

 

[NatF]

60% intensity? Lol. That match was literally for no.1 that season. Djokovic was at 100% intensity as was Nadal. The whole year was riding on it. That match was symptomatic of their rivalry. Whenever the pressure is ramped up Nadal has won. You are correct to highlight the Djokovic FH as Nadal has always targeted it during Major finals as it does break down under extreme pressure. Ashe is probably the most pressure cooker stadium in tennis when it's full and the atmosphere is cranked up.

You think that was the best match of the season?

 

[ChrisRF]

No version of Nadal is beating 95 F or 01 QF Pete at the USO

Under which hypothetical circumstances? Because peak US Open Nadal with poly against Sampras with his old racquet would be an easy win for Nadal and everything else is speculation.

Also the 2001 QF was a match without breaks. Do you really think 2010 Nadal would get no break in 4 sets against anyone in history? That’s very delusional. And I don’t see why Nadal would have more trouble to hold serve than Agassi. US Open 2010 was likely his best serving performance ever.

 

[Roubaixcomp]

You think that was the best match of the season?

Didn't say best match. It was the most important though. Whoever won that match had the best year and as a bonus would be probably YE1.

 

[NatF]

Didn't say best match. It was the most important though. Whoever won that match had the best year and as a bonus would be probably YE1.

Apologies misread. It still says nothing about the quality of the match itself - which was far from great for much of it.

 

[Roubaixcomp]

Apologies misread. It still says nothing about the quality of the match itself - which was far from great for much of it.

Not watched it for 10 years so cannot comment. I judge a match off winner to UFE ratio. What are the stats for both players in that regard from that match compared to their 2010 match?

 

[Roubaixcomp]

Apologies misread. It still says nothing about the quality of the match itself - which was far from great for much of it.

My memory of the 2013 USO final was Nadal falling on his butt to go0-40 down on serve then winning the game and the match then being over soon after as that seemed a turning point.

 

[mahatma]

AA USO >> Nadal. Nadal is exactly 4 more in US open titles than he should have been. That bad.

 

[RS]

If Agassi had one less title I would agree.

 

[Zara]

Nadal has 4 Us Opens and dominated the event for a decade. Agassi has 2 and never came close to dominating. Nadal is in a different league above Agassi at US Open.
Sampras v Nadal is a better question. Very marginal but I'd have to just give it Sampras. Connors though the USo GOAT as he won on 3 surfaces there.

Nadal dominated the USO for a decade?

 

[mike danny]

Nadal has 4 Us Opens and dominated the event for a decade.

From the man himself:

 

[NatF]

Not watched it for 10 years so cannot comment. I judge a match off winner to UFE ratio. What are the stats for both players in that regard from that match compared to their 2010 match?

My memory of the 2013 USO final was Nadal falling on his butt to go0-40 down on serve then winning the game and the match then being over soon after as that seemed a turning point.

Winners to errors ratio is just part of judging quality, forced errors are important as are the tempo of the rallies, movement, defence to offence, the quality of the hitting (e.g. pace, spin, angles, how early), when the errors come not just the total is important too (for example a guy who goes up an early break can afford to play looser on return games etc...).

As you asked for the stats I will share them though:

2013:

Nadal - 27 winners 20 UE's
Djokovic - 46 winners 53 UE's

2010:

Nadal - 49 winners 31 UE's
Djokovic - 45 winners 47 UE's

My impression of the 2013 match is that Djokovic was very erratic, I think he was at something 4 winners 13 UE's errors in the first set with lots of errors coming early in rallies off the forehand side. After the first set I think he found his range and Nadal started dropping the ball shorter which allowed Djokovic to dictate and grab a commanding position in the match. This spurt of good play was definitely on the back of some passive play from Nadal though.

Throughout the match even when Djokovic was playing better he was living on the edge, think he made three UE's in a row when trying to consolidate the break at 4-2 in the second for example, he also clustered a bunch off errors up 3-2 in the third set as well. Nadal for his part was tactically was great with his use of the slice and dtl forehand, and he was very clutch when he needed to be. He got a lot of help from Djokovic throughout the match though. Djokovic also lost intensity in the fourth set, a tough set to lose no doubt but would expect more from someone of Djokovic's caliber in that position and he basically gift wrapped the first.

 

[Roubaixcomp]

AA USO >> Nadal. Nadal is exactly 4 more in US open titles than he should have been. That bad.

0/10 troll attempt lol.

 

[Roubaixcomp]

Nadal dominated the USO for a decade?

4 titles is a good haul no?

 

[Roubaixcomp]

From the man himself:

He won 4 in a short space of time. How is that a negative?

 

[Roubaixcomp]

Winners to errors ratio is just part of judging quality, forced errors are important as are the tempo of the rallies, movement, defence to offence, the quality of the hitting (e.g. pace, spin, angles, how early), when the errors come not just the total is important too (for example a guy who goes up an early break can afford to play looser on return games etc...).

As you asked for the stats I will share them though:

2013:

Nadal - 27 winners 20 UE's
Djokovic - 46 winners 53 UE's

2010:

Nadal - 49 winners 31 UE's
Djokovic - 45 winners 47 UE's

My impression of the 2013 match is that Djokovic was very erratic, I think he was at something 4 winners 13 UE's errors in the first set with lots of errors coming early in rallies off the forehand side. After the first set I think he found his range and Nadal started dropping the ball shorter which allowed Djokovic to dictate and grab a commanding position in the match. This spurt of good play was definitely on the back of some passive play from Nadal though.

Throughout the match even when Djokovic was playing better he was living on the edge, think he made three UE's in a row when trying to consolidate the break at 4-2 in the second for example, he also clustered a bunch off errors up 3-2 in the third set as well. Nadal for his part was tactically was great with his use of the slice and dtl forehand, and he was very clutch when he needed to be. He got a lot of help from Djokovic throughout the match though. Djokovic also lost intensity in the fourth set, a tough set to lose no doubt but would expect more from someone of Djokovic's caliber in that position and he basically gift wrapped the first.

Djokovic probably on par both matches. Nadal was better in 2010 and clearly more aggressive. Which is impressive as 2010 for both probably had more riding on it. Nadal going for a career Slam and Surface Slam and Djokovic his first US Open.

 

[NatF]

Djokovic probably on par both matches. Nadal was better in 2010 and clearly more aggressive. Which is impressive as 2010 for both probably had more riding on it. Nadal going for a career Slam and Surface Slam and Djokovic his first US Open.

So you agree with my original point that 2010 Nadal was clearly better then

 

[Roubaixcomp]

So you agree with my original point that 2010 Nadal was clearly better then

I never said 2013 was high quality. I said it was most Important match that year. Stats wise 2010 looks better and it was more significant for both career wise.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

What if it's true?

IF true it would be 100/100 trolling.

IF it were, because it isn't.

 

[mike danny]

He won 4 in a short space of time. How is that a negative?

Short? You call 10 years short?

 

[NatF]

Short? You call 10 years short?

5 in 5 is still the GOAT standard

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

IF true it would be 100/100 trolling.

IF it were, because it isn't.

What if it is?

 

[Underdog]

Nadal fan voting Agassi. Nadal’s USO title count flatters him, in a similar way that his Wimbledon count probably slightly underestimates him. Until 2022 I would have said he had good luck at the USO to balance out the bad luck at the AO.

Honestly, no amount of luck at the USO will make up for the AO tragedies.

 

[Underdog]

You think that was the best match of the season?

He didn’t say that. The best match of the 2013 season is probably the Nadal-Djokovic RG match followed closely by Djokovic-Wawrinka AO match, obviously.

 

[Underdog]

AA USO >> Nadal. Nadal is exactly 4 more in US open titles than he should have been. That bad.

You just make a fool of yourself by saying these things. It’s okay if you think Andre is the better USO player, but subsequently saying Nadal is an undeserving champion just make your whole point looks brainless and yourself look bad.
Just saying.

 

[NatF]

He didn’t say that. The best match of the 2013 season is probably the Nadal-Djokovic RG match followed closely by Djokovic-Wawrinka AO match, obviously.

Already been clarified. Not sure I agree on the order of those matches but fair enough.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Honestly, no amount of luck at the USO will male up for the AO tragedies.

Personally it bothers me more that he didn’t manage to get another Wimbledon. Two seems like too few given his peak level there was super high 07/08 and he made 5 consecutive finals and then another semi that was a de facto final in 18 while playing a very high level.

When he was stuck on one AO it seemed unjust but AO22 makes up for the fact that AO12/17 could have gone either way. AO14, injuries happen.

 

[BeatlesFan]

It’s easily Agassi, like it’s legitimately not even close lol. OK Connors is close. But he doesn’t count, because Andre beat him twice at the USO.

Conveniently omitted is that Andre beat Jimbo at the USO when Connors was 36 and 37 years old and Andre was 18 and 19 years old. People trying to diminish Connors accomplishments at the US so are imbeciles. He won it five times on three different surfaces, end of story.

 

[Roubaixcomp]

Short? You call 10 years short?

Honestly I can remember 10 years ago like it was yesterday. 2012 just seems like now. Please don't depress me by saying it's a long time as I never wanted to get old!!!
I remember the Sampras v Federer W 2001 match like yesterday. Its scary af when I see a post like yours.

 

[Underdog]

Personally it bothers me more that he didn’t manage to get another Wimbledon. Two seems like too few given his peak level there was super high 07/08 and he made 5 consecutive finals and then another semi that was a de facto final in 18 while playing a very high level.

When he was stuck on one AO it seemed unjust but AO22 makes up for the fact that AO12/17 could have gone either way. AO14, injuries happen.

I think both are tough lucks, but, for me, AO was more of a matter of bad luck because he had chances throughout many years being competitive and going the distance, but was more often than not held by injuries. Imagine if he were healthy during AO 10 or 11, who knows. I wouldn’t even call the amazing opponents in 12/17 as bad luck.
As per Wimbledon, I think even though his por form from 12 to 17 is mainly due to knee difficulties, it’s a very bad period and he’s to blame.

 

[The_Order]

Short? You call 10 years short?

Well yes technically 10 years but given he didn't play in 2 of them it's 4/8 which aint bad...

 

[DSH]

I'd eat wings with her

Agassi is finally leading the poll. Most pleasant news.

Zara, what do your eyes hide that you can't see the light?

 

[Zara]

Zara, what do your eyes hide that you can't see the light?

That you and MN are passive aggressive.

 

[DSH]

That you and MN are passive aggressive.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

What if it is?

IF it is.
And we say IF, because it isn't.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

IF it is.
And we say IF, because it isn't.

If it isn't, then you can prove it. Where's the science?

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Jeesh this mess. The only reason Agassi isn't far and away US Open GOAT is because he dealt with Sampras his entire career along with Peak Fed at the end of his career Nadal never played either one ONCE at Flushing

Agassi would tear Nadal a new one at the US Open. Neither Djokovic or Nadal stack up close with Agassi at Flushing

 

[The_Order]

Jeesh this mess. The only reason Agassi isn't far and away US Open GOAT is because he dealt with Sampras his entire career along with Peak Fed at the end of his career Nadal never played either one ONCE at Flushing

Agassi would tear Nadal a new one at the US Open. Neither Djokovic or Nadal stack up close with Agassi at Flushing

Hmmm... the only reason he isn't goat is because he wasn't good enough to beat others... sound logic