Better career : Zverev or Stich

[travlerajm]

Michael Stich:
1 GS (WC'91)
1 WTF
1 GS cup
1 Olympic Doubles Gold
2 masters
13 titles

Alexander Zverev:
0 slams
2 WTF
5 masters
1 Olympic Singles gold
19 titles

Who had a better career? Included Stich's stats until 1993 only for a better comparison.

It’s not even close when you consider the quality of the competition.

One of them peaked and won the most prestigious title during the strongest era in pro tennis history.

The other is the poster boy for the weakest generation in the history of pro tennis.

 

[abmk]

Haha ok. I actually didn’t know this poster yet. Maybe soon one more for my ignore list.

One post is enough to expose blatant propagandist @Heliath

Blake and Haas were not easy for 3rd round and 4th round opponents.
Sampras was playing well at USO in 00, 01, 02.

Haas was 6-9 vs top 10 in 2001
2-3 vs top 10 in 2002

Haas didn't even play a single match in 03. that you include 03 in this shows your utter shameless/cluelessness.



Actually Sampras was in excellent form at USO in 01 - taking out the previous 3 USO champs - Rafter, Agassi, Safin.
final, sampras' dipped due to the draw, but Hewitt made him look significantly worse.




Djoko was utterly mediocre in the USO 2021 final. Get a grip.wasn't that good at the USO even before the final.

and no, its not what it is. Oldal and Oldovic don't remotely compare to peak fed (&peak safin of AO 05)



Again clueless.
Rafter won Indianapolis in 01 for starters.
Rafter made AO semi in 2001, going up 2 sets to 1 vs Agassi
made Wim final in 2001 beating agassi in the semi in a classic and came close vs Goran in that epic match.
taken out by in-form Sampras in 4th round of USO
made Canada final, Cincy final.

Hewitt faced fed in 02 YEC, not 01. and that match was a good quality one
Ferrero played a good final in YEC 02. was improving on HC and hardly a slouch there.
and nice of you to ignore Agassi in YEC 01, Safin in YEC 02.

Peak Medvedev vs Peak Hewitt

Dude, the theme of @Third Serve's post was injuries. Roddick's career was not cut short by injuries. Fair enough.

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[spottishwood]

It’s not even close when you consider the quality of the competition.

One of them peaked and won the most prestigious title during the strongest era in pro tennis history.

The other is the poster boy for the weakest generation in the history of pro tennis.

That's certainly true but if I'd included that, this thread could've ended up like other generic weak era discussions

 

[spottishwood]

One post is enough to expose blatant propagandist @Heliath

Peak Medvedev vs Peak Hewitt

Dude, the theme of @Third Serve's post was injuries. Roddick's career was not cut short by injuries. Fair enough.

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Is he our new meles

EDIT: anti-fedr venom detected

 

[Sysyphus]

Zverev's more well-rounded stats at a young age testifies to the fact that he's a fee classes above Stich

 

[zagor]

Not sure, ask @Spencer Gore

Or maybe it was Ivanesivic who was better than Federer. Not sure

He knows nothing about Ivanisevic and Stich (or really anything before 2008), why would I ask him?

 

[Arafel]

The fact that ANYONE would vote for Zverev shows how low the tennis IQ is on this forum

 

[spottishwood]

The fact that ANYONE would vote for Zverev shows how low the tennis IQ is on this forum

lol I'm surprised to see that even some fellow djokofans who usually vote for some next-gen voted Stich here

 

[Heliath]

They had a different criteria of selecting players, which they did by performances in slams.

Brad Gilbert went to the 1990 edition thanks to a QF in Wimbledon and R3 in the US Open and no participation in the French or Australian Open. So yeah, the criteria to go to the WTF is much better than that.

Magnus Larsson beat Edberg, Agassi, and Sampras to achieve his title. What better players you think he should have beaten?

And Zverev defeated Djokovic and Federer (#1 and #3) in 2018 to get his title and Djokovic and Medvedev (#1 and #2) to get his second title.

When Stich won the Grand Slam Cup, Courier who was #1 didnt participate, nor did Boris Becker who was #5 at the time. So why is that better than Zverev's win?

If anything, I'd value GS cup even more than 2010s WTF just because they had BO5 SF and Finals.

And you had to play fewer matches than in the WTF to win it. Downplaying the 2 WTF of Zverev for the Grand Slam Cup makes zero sense.

 

[Third Serve]

He is no longer with us. F

more like L

 

[TheNachoMan]

more like L

I enjoyed his trolling.

 

[Heliath]

People that say that Stich and Zverev are equal outside of slams are completely deluded:


Weeks in the top 5:

• Zverev: 129 (and counting)
• Stich: 108

Weeks in the top 10:

• Zverev: 218 (and counting)
• Stich: 190

Year End Ranking in the top 5:

• Zverev: 3 times (and counting)
• Stich: 2 times

Year End Ranking in the top 10:

• Zverev: 5 times (and counting)
• Stich: 3 times

 

[abmk]

Is he our new meles

EDIT: anti-fedr venom detected

calling him new meles would be being very kind.

 

[spottishwood]

And Zverev defeated Djokovic and Federer (#1 and #3) in 2018 to get his title and Djokovic and Medvedev (#1 and #2) to get his second title.

When Stich won the Grand Slam Cup, Courier who was #1 didnt participate, nor did Boris Becker who was #5 at the time. So why is that better than Zverev's win?

I'll tell ya why, It is because #2 Nadal didn't participate nor did #5 Juan Martin Del potro participate. Sampras 1994>>>Djokovic 2018. BB had to peak to beat him in stuttgart . Fedr in the 2nd half of 2018 wasn't playing a world beating tennis either. No need to compare 2 WTF's with one GS cup, we do have Stich's WTF to compare with.

 

[spottishwood]

calling him new meles would be being very kind.

Yeah. Saw his posts on that thread.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Stich much like Johannson. They both won a slam. Zverev keeps choking at them

 

[spottishwood]

Stich much like Johannson. They both won a slam. Zverev keeps choking at them

Nah, TJ never did anything after his fluke slam. Stich at least had rights to 5-4

 

[Heliath]

Sampras 1994>>>Djokovic 2018. BB had to peak to beat him in stuttgart . Fedr in the 2nd half of 2018 wasn't playing a world beating tennis either.

You are absolutely deluded if you think that the Sampras at the end of 1994 was better than Djokovic at the end of 2018.

Djokovic's second part of the 2018 season after winning in Wimbledon:

R16 in Canada vs Tsitsipas.
Win in Cincinnati.
Win in the US OPEN.
Win in Shanghai
Final in Paris.
Final in the WTF against Zverev.

Pete Sampras 1994 season after winning in Wimbledon:

No Canada.
No Cincinnati.
Davis Cup QF, defeat vs Krajicek
4th round exit at the US OPEN vs Jaime Yzaga. <- LOL
Davis Cup SF, defeat vs Edberg.
SF in Stockholm vs Becker.
QF in Paris vs Agassi
Win in Tour Finals vs Becker
Final in Grand Slam Cup vs Larsson

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

to be fair.. Pete was injured vs. Yzaga in '94 The year after at the US Open we saw what Pete did to Yzaga healthy

 

[abmk]

You are absolutely deluded if you think that the Sampras at the end of 1994 was better than Djokovic at the end of 2018.

Djokovic's second part of the 2018 season after winning in Wimbledon:

R16 in Canada vs Tsitsipas.
Win in Cincinnati.
Win in the US OPEN.
Win in Shanghai
Final in Paris.
Final in the WTF against Zverev.

Pete Sampras 1994 season after winning in Wimbledon:

No Canada.
No Cincinnati.
Davis Cup QF, defeat vs Krajicek
4th round exit at the US OPEN vs Jaime Yzaga. <- LOL
Davis Cup SF, defeat vs Edberg.
SF in Stockholm vs Becker.
QF in Paris vs Agassi
Win in Tour Finals vs Becker
Final in Grand Slam Cup vs Larsson

Pete was injured before USO 94 and just made it in time to play it. Was still ways off his best. But then you wouldn't know that would you. LOL, it seems. H-A-C-K,

He then started playing himself into form.

lost to Agassi in close straights in Paris
won Antwerp including beating Larsson
won the YEC (unlike Djoko) beating Edberg, Goran, Agassi, Becker
beat Yzaga, Chang, Goran before losing to Larsson in the Grand Slam Cup

 

[spottishwood]

Final in Paris.

against Khachanov.
Apart from that USO exit,in which he was inured, all losses were very much respectable. Edberg was not prime anymore but wasn't weak either. That Cincy'18 fed who reached finals slicing his way was far worse than Becker that beat Sampras. And don't get me started on that Shanghai 2018 draw. Lost to Khachanov in Bercy. At least Pete lost to Agassi.

 

[TheNachoMan]

I miss Meles and his propaganda

 

[spottishwood]

I miss Meles and his propaganda

You can meet him on discord if ya want . He's very active there these days.

 

[TheNachoMan]

You can meet on discord if ya want . He's very active there these days.

Nice, you can DM me your discord.

 

[mental midget]

Stich obviously. It ain't remotely close.
Slam win at WImbledon beating Edberg and Becker b2b.
Slam final at USO and RG. slam semi at AO.i.e slam semis in all 4 in a surface varied era.

Z doesn't have Wim QF even in a homegenized era and the worst period of open era.
No top 10 win in slams.
1 slam final

he was on fire in those two matches. beat edberg without ever breaking him though. and just outclassed becker, it was some insanely good tennis.

 

[Mustard]

Obviously Stich.

 

[Mustard]

he was on fire in those two matches. beat edberg without ever breaking him though. and just outclassed becker, it was some insanely good tennis.

On the other end of the surface scale, Stich beat Muster on clay at the 1996 French Open.

 

[Mustard]

Impressive that Stich made the finals of the French Open when there really was a world of difference between grass and red clay. Also made the USO finals losing to Agassi. History/Legacy wise, Stich still has the edge over Zverev.

Zverev’s window opportunity is closing, within a year Medvedev, Tsitsipas, FAA, Sinner, Alcaraz and some young guns may take over if Zverev doesn’t impose himself on the Majors stage. He keeps on waiting for everyone to allow him to win a Slam. A choking Theim practically was handing him that USO and Zverev was like “no thank you, I’m not ready.” If you can’t win under those circumstances…

A choking Thiem? Zverev led by 2 sets and a break, and served for the title at 5-3 in the fifth set! That was before Thiem did any choking when serving for the match at 6-5 in the fifth set, and then blowing his first 2 championship points in the fifth set tiebreak.

The best moment of real bottle in that 2020 US Open final was at 6-6 in the fifth set tiebreak, when Thiem hit the passing shot winner under pressure.

 

[Patriots]

he was on fire in those two matches. beat edberg without ever breaking him though. and just outclassed becker, it was some insanely good tennis.

He also beat Courier in the Qtrs, so in succession he beat the #4, #1 and #2 players to win that Wimbledon crown. In all he beat 5 Top Ten players in the Majors during his career. For his one ATP YE champs, Stich beat the #2 and #1 seeds in route to winning, it was #1 Pete Sampras he bested in fast indoor carpet in the finals in four sets. Beat the #1 ranked player in the world 4 times during his career. Incredibly dangerous at his best.

Stich actually holds a 5-4 head2head with Pete Sampras, and yes most of those matches took place when Pete was #1.

 

[King No1e]

Not sure, ask @Spencer Gore

Or maybe it was Ivanesivic who was better than Federer. Not sure

Fed never won Wimbledon as a wild card. Also Goran almost pulled a 8-7 40-15, which would've been far, far more painful for him than it would be for an 8-time champ.

 

[metsman]

winning 93 YEC is far more valuable than anything Zverev has or will do. Forget Wimbledon.

 

[metsman]

Zverev may have the advantage though in dropshot and lob, so we may have to take that into account.

 

[Heliath]

Pete was injured before USO 94 and just made it in time to play it. Was still ways off his best. But then you wouldn't know that would you. LOL, it seems. H-A-C-K,

He then started playing himself into form.

lost to Agassi in close straights in Paris
won Antwerp including beating Larsson
won the YEC (unlike Djoko) beating Edberg, Goran, Agassi, Becker
beat Yzaga, Chang, Goran before losing to Larsson in the Grand Slam Cup

Thanks for involuntarily agreeing that Djokovic at the end of 2018 > Sampras at the end of 1994. Rofl.

Djokovic losing the WTF final vs Zverev is terrible, but apparently Sampras losing the Grand Slam Cup final vs #19 Larsson is ok?

 

[ghostofMecir]

Stich was one of the most naturally gifted players ever and probably one of the latest bloomers ever to win a slam and be a slam threat. If he had started the sport earlier, who knows how good he could have been. Beautiful natural service motion, good movement at the time for a tall guy (6’4), very good athlete, good hands, good at net, good groundstrokes when dialed in. His peak game, even if came out rarely, was incredibly difficult to defeat.

He gave Sampras everything he could handle on fast surfaces. The one guy who really dismantled him was Agassi who read his serve so well and moved him around on the baseline so easily.

 

[Patriots]

I would think Zverev, with 1 Major finals, 5 Masters wins, and 2 ATP YE champs is arguably the best player (so far) in the Open Era not to win a Major in his career. The other contenders are Marcello Rios who made 1 Major finals, won 5 Masters and was ranked #1 in the world, and Miloslav Mecir who won Olympic Gold (besting Wimbledon champ Edberg in the SF) won the equivalent of 3 Masters and reached 2 Major finals.

 

[thrust]

What crucial similarity do these two possess for us to closely compare them - aside from the fact that one is German and the other kind-of German?

Because both are German, obviously.

 

[Whisper]

Zverev might be able to beat Stich once in 15 attempts, maybe.

Yes, but prob not in a slam If Stich is in top 10.

 

[Whisper]

He gave Sampras everything he could handle on fast surfaces.

Except at 1992 Wimbledon when Stich was defending champion - Sampras 63 62 64

 

[Mustard]

He also beat Courier in the Qtrs, so in succession he beat the #4, #1 and #2 players to win that Wimbledon crown. In all he beat 5 Top Ten players in the Majors during his career. For his one ATP YE champs, Stich beat the #2 and #1 seeds in route to winning, it was #1 Pete Sampras he bested in fast indoor carpet in the finals in four sets. Beat the #1 ranked player in the world 4 times during his career. Incredibly dangerous at his best.

Stich actually holds a 5-4 head2head with Pete Sampras, and yes most of those matches took place when Pete was #1.

Yet Stich got annhilated by Sampras during his Wimbledon title defence in 1992. It was over very quickly.

Stich had a good win over Sampras in Frankfurt in 1993. A very good win.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Sampras said Stich is the most talented player hes ever played.

 

[Mustard]

Sampras said Stich is the most talented player hes ever played.

It was Agassi that Stich really had trouble with.

 

[ghostofMecir]

Except at 1992 Wimbledon when Stich was defending champion - Sampras 63 62 64

Yet Stich got annhilated by Sampras during his Wimbledon title defence in 1992. It was over very quickly.

Stich had a good win over Sampras in Frankfurt in 1993. A very good win.

One of Sampras’s finest matches; coming into that match, Stich had been broken once in 9 matches, had some 60-70 straight games held on grass until Masur broke him in the first set in the 4th round of Wimbledon, and Pete absolutely destroyed him. Pete would have won that Wimbledon title if not for an all-time God like serving performance from Ivanisevic in the SFs.

It was Agassi that Stich really had trouble with.

Just like Beckers, Agassi read Stich’s serve so well and then took his time away on both wings with his early hitting and just frustrated Stich every time they played; the look on Stich’s face at the 1994 USO Final showed everything, i.e., that there was no way that he could beat Agassi. As an example, Agassi won 40.8% of return points vs. Chang, but he won 41.8% against Stich. Stich’s 58.2% of service points won vs, Agassi is pretty much the lowest against anyone he ever played more than a few times.

To compound things, Stich had a hard time returning Agassi’s serve as well. Agassi dominated him on hard, clay, and carpet. That 1991 Davis Cup match on clay was just such a schooling Stich got.

 

[Mustard]

I would think Zverev, with 1 Major finals, 5 Masters wins, and 2 ATP YE champs is arguably the best player (so far) in the Open Era not to win a Major in his career. The other contenders are Marcello Rios who made 1 Major finals, won 5 Masters and was ranked #1 in the world, and Miloslav Mecir who won Olympic Gold (besting Wimbledon champ Edberg in the SF) won the equivalent of 3 Masters and reached 2 Major finals.

It's Miloslav Mecir. Although the 1987 Miami title that Mecir won was a 128 man draw and best of 5 sets in every round.

Mecir always had the air that there was nothing that anybody else could teach him about tennis (he had no coach and had the smallest entourage), and was capable of making great players look silly. He did it to nearly all of them at some point, even Lendl. He retired with a back injury at just 26.

 

[Patriots]

What crucial similarity do these two possess for us to closely compare them - aside from the fact that one is German and the other kind-of German?

Wow...Interesting Zverev was actually born in Germany.

So by that criteria Pancho Gonzales was a kind-of American and Michael Chang was kind-of American , if you take it even further, Djokovic is kind of Serbian, Federer is kind of Swiss and both Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi are kind of American, other others.

It's Miloslav Mecir. Although the 1987 Miami title that Mecir won was a 128 man draw and best of 5 sets in every round.

Mecir always had the air that there was nothing that anybody else could teach him about tennis (he had no coach and had the smallest entourage), and was capable of making great players look silly. He did it to nearly all of them at some point, even Lendl. He retired with a back injury at just 26.

I still remember how they called Mecir the SWEDE KILLER.... used to drive them crazy, especially Matts Wilander.

 

[mental midget]

He also beat Courier in the Qtrs, so in succession he beat the #4, #1 and #2 players to win that Wimbledon crown. In all he beat 5 Top Ten players in the Majors during his career. For his one ATP YE champs, Stich beat the #2 and #1 seeds in route to winning, it was #1 Pete Sampras he bested in fast indoor carpet in the finals in four sets. Beat the #1 ranked player in the world 4 times during his career. Incredibly dangerous at his best.

Stich actually holds a 5-4 head2head with Pete Sampras, and yes most of those matches took place when Pete was #1.

yeah. he was a heck of an athlete, a little more focus, better training etc he could have one several more majors.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

ok..I'll stop this. Zverev can't do these things Especially with crappy racket technology.. argument over kids. stich>>>Zverev

 

[Mustard]

ok..I'll stop this. Zverev can't do these things Especially with crappy racket technology.. argument over kids. stich>>>Zverev

A great year for Stich in 1993, considering that he didn't win one of the 4 majors that year. In 1993, Stich won 2 Super 9s (Hamburg, Stockholm), Queen's Club, YEC, runner-up of the GSC, won titles on all 4 surfaces, finished the year number 2 in the world behind Sampras, pipping Courier to number 2 by the year's end as Courier ended 1993 in lacklustre form.

 

[abmk]

Thanks for involuntarily agreeing that Djokovic at the end of 2018 > Sampras at the end of 1994. Rofl.

Djokovic losing the WTF final vs Zverev is terrible, but apparently Sampras losing the Grand Slam Cup final vs #19 Larsson is ok?

that's not what I said, HackIth.
Djoko's 2018 was better than Sampras' 1994 after Wimbledon, but Sampras' end of year was better, especially with winning YEC.
Sampras winning YEC beating Becker+Agassi is way better than Djoko losing to Zverev in straights.

Sampras losing GSC final to Larsson is somewhat like Djoko losing to Khachanov in Paris final. Only Djoko got blown out, Sampras-Larsson was close.

 

[Heliath]

that's not what I said, HackIth.
Djoko's 2018 was better than Sampras' 1994 after Wimbledon, but Sampras' end of year was better, especially with winning YEC.
Sampras winning YEC beating Becker+Agassi is way better than Djoko losing to Zverev in straights.

Sampras losing GSC final to Larsson is somewhat like Djoko losing to Khachanov in Paris final. Only Djoko got blown out, Sampras-Larsson was close.

Losing 7-5, 6-4 is being blown up?

Larsson only spent 5 weeks of his career in the top 10. Your argument that Larsson was this mythical low key amazing player and that Sampras losing to him was ok, but Djokovic losing 7-5, 6-4 to 2018 Khachanov should be an embarrasment? Give me a break.

 

[abmk]

Losing 7-5, 6-4 is being blown up?

Larsson only spent 5 weeks of his career in the top 10. Your argument that Larsson was this mythical low key amazing player and that Sampras losing to him was ok, but Djokovic losing 7-5, 6-4 to 2018 Khachanov should be an embarrasment? Give me a break.

the 2nd set in the Paris 18 final wasn't even close.
Sampras-Larsson was a close 4-setter.
Djoko's loss to Khach OTOH was a straight-set loss.

You are blind as a bat deep in your propaganda if you can't see the difference

and like I said Sampras won the YEC beating Agassi and Becker.
Djoko lost to Z in straights.

big difference.