If Nadal wins Wimby, I'm ready to concede he's the GOAT in my book

[xFedal]

I said not all 4 are mandatory.

Of course 3 Channel slam combined with double career slamshould do the trick.

But no. 4 is mandatory. And no.1 would boost his legacy a lot

Roger is no longer a threat to Nadal in indoors due to age. Only Nole is stopping Rafa from WTF and if Noles out then Rafa can do it.

 

[xFedal]

Why pass 17? Is equal not enough? At which point the tie breaker of h2h clearly is in play? Agree with 2 more off clay slams else he's the clay goat with 11 RG and 6 elsewhere if that's how it panned out (although even with those numbers and a skewed h2h over everyone I don't think you can say anyone in his era is better than him).

As for weeks at number 1, if he gets over 200 I think he's ticked that and to get 17 plus slams I'm sure he would. He dominates the h2h with everyone and holds the masters record. the wtf is a bit of an issue but probably not a deal breaker. It just says you're not as good on indoor hard courts. It's a blatant surface advantage for the hardcourters. Don't think olympic gold makes any increased claim for Nadal (not that you said it did).

The most important is slam numbers and then spending a considerable period as number 1, h2h, masters, wtfs and non-surface bias in no particular order become all part of the mix in my opinion, as does judgement of eras.

Maybe he needs to pass 17 if he doesn't add 60 more weeks at no.1. But I still believe he has 1 more Wimby and Australian open in him.

 

[mike danny]

Why pass 17? Is equal not enough? At which point the tie breaker of h2h clearly is in play? Agree with 2 more off clay slams else he's the clay goat with 11 RG and 6 elsewhere if that's how it panned out (although even with those numbers and a skewed h2h over everyone I don't think you can say anyone in his era is better than him).

As for weeks at number 1, if he gets over 200 I think he's ticked that and to get 17 plus slams I'm sure he would. He dominates the h2h with everyone and holds the masters record. the wtf is a bit of an issue but probably not a deal breaker. It just says you're not as good on indoor hard courts. It's a blatant surface advantage for the hardcourters. Don't think olympic gold makes any increased claim for Nadal (not that you said it did).

The most important is slam numbers and then spending a considerable period as number 1, h2h, masters, wtfs and non-surface bias in no particular order become all part of the mix in my opinion, as does judgement of eras.


Basically, I think Nadal will probably take the overall slam count and may or may not be considered goat or co-goat with Federer. Fed will hold weeks #1 and wtfs and may just fend off Nadal on slams but it's looking unlikely. Fed though will probably well definitely be a more loved player in part due to a marketing aura etc but mainly due to his beautiful aesthetic game and his range of shots that he has which probably surpasses anyone else I've ever seen play.

Well you can say whatever you want, but you can bet on the fact that Nadal will not be pleased by just equalling the slam record. If he does win 17, he will make a final push to win 1 more, even if it kills him.

 

[torpantennis]

Fed got stopped by one man at one slam and dominated 2 and was extremely good at a third.

How is that worse than dominating one slam and eking out wins at 3 others?

Yeah, currently Nadal is just a spanish claycourter, that happened to have luck with draws on other slams, and luck in SW19 transforming to clay on 2nd week, in this baseliner era.

 

[Fiji]

If I were a betting man, I say he wins one more RG and one more HC slam. Still not enough for 17.

 

[Omega_7000]

Anyway I have always maintained there is no GOAT...There are only favorites...

- The media/commentators will tout players that will boost up tennis ratings...They know Fed is on the way out so everyone is jumping on Ralph's bandwagon.
- Posters here will manipulate stats to suit arguments about their favorite player being the GOAT.
- It's impossible to compare different era's.

I've been saying this since 2011,
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=376001
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=479738

 

[xFedal]

Yeah, currently Nadal is just a spanish claycourter, that happened to have luck with draws on other slams, and luck in SW19 transforming to clay on 2nd week, in this baseliner era.

Not only Nadal had luck so did Roger with his draws as well.

 

[aldeayeah]

If he does win 17, he will make a final push to win 1 more, even if it kills him.

NADAL: Tio Toni... am I the GOAT now...?
TIO TONI: Yes, Rafa, you are. You can... you can rest now.
NADAL: *dies*
TIO TONI: RAFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(This is fiction - Tio Toni would never admit Rafa is GOAT; instead he'd find some new record for Rafa to break)

 

[Noleberic123]

Yeah, currently Nadal is just a spanish claycourter, that happened to have luck with draws on other slams, and luck in SW19 transforming to clay on 2nd week, in this baseliner era.

Dude nadal did not win all his slams with luck, he earned them give the guy sone respect, he does have 14 grand slam titles

 

[xFedal]

If I were a betting man, I say he wins one more RG and one more HC slam. Still not enough for 17.

In the next 4 years or so you think he going to only WIN 1 RG? :shock:

 

[Fiji]

If Nadal ends up with 16 and Federer with 17, who will be considered the GOAT? One slam difference is nothing.

 

[Fiji]

In the next 4 years or so you think he going to only WIN 1 RG? :shock:

2 AO
10 RG
2 Wimbledon
2 USO

 

[Noleberic123]

If Nadal ends up with 16 and Federer with 17, who will be considered the GOAT? One slam difference is nothing.

Whether u win by an inch or a mile a win is a win

 

[xFedal]

2 AO
10 RG
2 Wimbledon
2 USO

Don't count him out at US Open and Wimby. I say he does:
2 AO
11 RG at least
3 Wimbledon
2 USO maybe 3

Overall 7-8 Non clay slams.

 

[Fiji]

Whether u win by an inch or a mile a win is a win

Pretty much.

 

[xFedal]

If Nadal ends up with 16 and Federer with 17, who will be considered the GOAT? One slam difference is nothing.

Uncle Tony and Nadal won't rest in peace. How can the greatest fighter come 1 short at the greatest record.

 

[Noleberic123]

Don't count him out at US Open and Wimby. I say he does:
2 AO
11 RG at least
3 Wimbledon
2 USO maybe 3

Overall 7-8 Non clay slams.

I doubt he wins another AO, dont ever forget djokovics success there

 

[Flint]

I am completely neutral on the whole Nadal Federer thing (in fact it bores me) and I have to say its looking like when they retire Nadal will be the greater

 

[Fiji]

Don't count him out at US Open and Wimby. I say he does:
2 AO
11 RG at least
3 Wimbledon
2 USO maybe 3

Overall 7-8 Non clay slams.

The problem for him is grass is his worst surface now. He's been losing to journeymen there for 2 years in a row. Can't see him winning Wimbledon again TBH. At the USO, no male player won multiple titles there after turning 27 since the modern era of tennis began in the mid 1980s, post wooden racquet. Lendl couldn't. Sampras couldn't. Agassi couldn't. Federer couldn't. Nobody won more than one USO after turning 27 since 1985. Nadal is not doing it either.

RG and AO are the only chances he has.

 

[xFedal]

I doubt he wins another AO, dont ever forget djokovics success there

I know but Nadal is not far apart from Nole in A0 I say we may have 1 year where they share there pet slams.

 

[torpantennis]

Dude nadal did not win all his slams with luck, he earned them give the guy sone respect, he does have 14 grand slam titles

Oh c'mon! His routes to the finals of his 5 non-RG slams:

2008 SW19: Youzhny-Murray-Schuettler
2009 AO: Gonzalez-Simon-Verdasco
2010 SW19: Mathieu-Soderling-Murray
2010 USO: Lopez-Verdasco-Youzhny
2013 USO: Kohlschreiber-Robredo-Gasquet

LOL, call that not-lucky?

 

[xFedal]

The problem for him is grass is his worst surface now. He's been losing to journeymen there for 2 years in a row. Can't see him winning Wimbledon again TBH. At the USO, no male player won multiple titles there after turning 27 since the modern era of tennis began in the mid 1980s, post wooden racquet. Lendl couldn't. Sampras couldn't. Agassi couldn't. Federer couldn't. Nobody won more than one USO after turning 27 since 1985. Nadal is not doing it either.

AO and RG are the only chances he has.

Counting him out again are we?....:lol:

Well Nadal won 2 French Opens and 1 US open after turning 27 and knees look good for the Grass after stem cell therapy.

 

[SLD76]

Yeah, currently Nadal is just a spanish claycourter, that happened to have luck with draws on other slams, and luck in SW19 transforming to clay on 2nd week, in this baseliner era.

Has he dominated the uso , Wimbledon or the AO?

We are talking GOAT discussion, nit very very good players of all time. So yeah, I expect the GOAT to be as close to completely dominant as possible. So sue me if I'll take the guy who dominated 2 slams and the WTF and was very good at a 3rd slam over the clay goat who was good but not dominant on other surfaces who was good enough to win 5 non clay majors in a 10 year span but who also spent the majority if his career ranked 2 in the world and still has no WTF.


I mean really

 

[xFedal]

Has he dominated the uso , Wimbledon or the AO?

We are talking GOAT discussion, nit very very good players of all time. So yeah, I expect the GOAT to be as close to completely dominant as possible. So sue me if I'll take the guy who dominated 2 slams and the WTF and was very good at a 3rd slam over the clay goat who was good but not dominant on other surfaces who was good enough to win 5 non clay majors in a 10 year span but who also spent the majority if his career ranked 2 in the world and still has no WTF.


I mean really

His getting close to winning WTF and adding non clay slams will also boost his legacy heavily.

 

[irishnadalfan1983]

The WTF or YEC has been an important tournament for 40 years, it's the 5th biggest tournament in tennis. Only certain Nadal fans thinking beating at least 4 top 10 players in a single tournament is meaningless. Federer has 5 times beaten 5 top 10 players in a row to win the YEC. That's pretty special.

I honestly don't even view it as real tournament due to it changing location so often and only 8 players in it.

Most tennis commentators (ex players) never even mention it when discussing GOAT.

I couldn't care less about it.

 

[Fiji]

I doubt he wins another AO, dont ever forget djokovics success there

Djokovic lost to Wawrinka there this year. He is not as great at the AO as Nadal is at RG, for example.

 

[SLD76]

Oh c'mon! His routes to the finals of his 5 non-RG slams:

2008 SW19: Youzhny-Murray-Schuettler
2009 AO: Gonzalez-Simon-Verdasco
2010 SW19: Mathieu-Soderling-Murray
2010 USO: Lopez-Verdasco-Youzhny
2013 USO: Kohlschreiber-Robredo-Gasquet

LOL, call that not-lucky?

I wouldn't lump 2009 ao. Gonzalez is an AO finalist who beat Nadal there in 2007. And verdasco played very well. No luck there

 

[FrontHeadlock]

No because there's a much more even spread of his titles. Something you'd know if you were interested in tennis rather just flaming.

I'll preface this by saying that, for now at least, Federer's accomplishments make him the best ever.

That said, it's intellectually dishonest to talk about spread of titles when the surfaces at W and the USO are highly correlative. If you don't believe me, look at the the winners/finalists of the two events over the last 25 years or so. There are a few exceptions, but there are a TON of similarities. There are also obvious similarities between the AO and the USO. The FO is the least correlative with any of the other majors.

People like to talk about how guys like Federer and Sampras have success on a diversity of surfaces, but they neglect to mention how they were having success on faster courts (it's no coincidence that each have 7 and 5 titles at W and USO, respectively).

 

[SLD76]

I honestly don't even view it as real tournament due to it changing location so often and only 8 players in it.

Most tennis commentators (ex players) never even mention it when discussing GOAT.

I couldn't care less about it.

Until Nadal wins it you mean.

And trollolololol @'only 8" players.

You mean top 8. Best of the best. No scrubs to beat in the early rounds or later rounds because your draw falls apart and opens up.

If that statement doesn't reveal your ignorance then I don't know what.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Nadal is 5th all time.

He becomes GOAT with another 3 majors.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

I don't think there is a GOAT, but Nadal would definitely be equal with Federer as the best of his generation.

 

[Fiji]

Counting him out again are we?....:lol:

Well Nadal won 2 French Opens and 1 US open after turning 27 and knees look good for the Grass after stem cell therapy.

He won one USO after turning 27. Like Lendl, Sampras, Agassi and Federer. None of them won another one after that. Neither will Nadal. Get real. The guys I mentioned above are better hc players than him. Perspective.

 

[xFedal]

Nadal is 5th all time.

He becomes GOAT with another 3 majors.

What does Nadal have that Rivals Federers record of winning 2 slams 5 in a row?

 

[irishnadalfan1983]

Until Nadal wins it you mean.

And trollolololol @'only 8" players.

You mean top 8. Best of the best. No scrubs to beat in the early rounds or later rounds because your draw falls apart and opens up.

If that statement doesn't reveal your ignorance then I don't know what.

Honestly I couldn't care less - I think I have demonstrated that by stating that I would like nothing more than Nadal withdrawing from this year's WTF and getting ready for Australia.

Indoor tournament with 8 lads in London in the middle of November is it?! Give me a break.

 

[SLD76]

I'll preface this by saying that, for now at least, Federer's accomplishments make him the best ever.

That said, it's intellectually dishonest to talk about spread of titles when the surfaces at W and the USO are highly correlative. If you don't believe me, look at the the winners/finalists of the two events over the last 25 years or so. There are a few exceptions, but there are a TON of similarities. There are also obvious similarities between the AO and the USO. The FO is the least correlative with any of the other majors.

People like to talk about how guys like Federer and Sampras have success on a diversity of surfaces, but they neglect to mention how they were having success on faster courts (it's no coincidence that each have 7 and 5 titles at W and USO, respectively).

You forget fed was the second best clay courter for years behind Nadal and had to adapt his game to slowing surfaces

Pete did nothing on slow courts and would not have dominated this era.

 

[Russeljones]

Nadal is 5th all time.

He becomes GOAT with another 4 majors.

Fixed.

10chars

 

[SLD76]

Honestly I couldn't care less - I think I have demonstrated that by stating that I would like nothing more than Nadal withdrawing from this year's WTF and getting ready for Australia.

Indoor tournament with 8 lads in London in the middle of November is it?! Give me a break.

You've demonstrated a lack of tennis knowledge and that you stan for nadal

 

[Phoenix1983]

Fixed.

10chars

Sorry but if they are equal on majors, the H2H decides that Nadal is GOAT over Fed.

 

[xFedal]

He won one USO after turning 27. Like Lendl, Sampras, Agassi and Federer. None of them won another one after that. Neither will Nadal. Get real. The guys I mentioned above are better hc players than him. Perspective.

Doesn't matter if they are better than Nadal or not he can still win another US open beating Nole or Murray.

 

[cknobman]

Right now Nadal is a lock for 3rd best of all time behind Laver and Federer.

If Nadal wins another GS then hes a lock for 2nd.

If Nadal wins 16 hes there with Fed.

If Nadal wins 17 I'll give hime GOAT.

Of course this is presuming Federer continues to do nothing. If Federer adds any more slams then Nadal has to keep adding them as well.

 

[Russeljones]

Sorry but if they are equal on majors, the H2H decides that Nadal is GOAT over Fed.

Says who? I say WTF and YE #1 matter a lot lot more.

 

[Fiji]

Doesn't matter if they are better than Nadal or not he can still win another US open beating Nole or Murray.

History says he won't.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Honestly I couldn't care less - I think I have demonstrated that by stating that I would like nothing more than Nadal withdrawing from this year's WTF and getting ready for Australia.

Indoor tournament with 8 lads in London in the middle of November is it?! Give me a break.

I could understand your point if the "8 lads" were picked at random, but they are the best 8 players in the world. In essence, a WTF can be almost as hard as winning a slam, maybe even harder depending on the draw.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

You forget fed was the second best clay courter for years behind Nadal and had to adapt his game to slowing surfaces

Pete did nothing on slow courts and would not have dominated this era.

I haven't forgotten. But let's also not forget that Nadal has 5 W finals, 3 USO finals, 3 AO finals and 2 WTF finals to his name. That's a lot as well.

But yes, Fed was a good clay court player. It's one of the reasons he's wayyy ahead of Sampras. In fact, Sampras has the weakest record at the FO of any player in the Open Era with 6+ majors. It's one of the reasons why I never thought of him as the GOAT. Best fast-court player maybe, but not the GOAT. Clay is too important of a surface.

 

[SLD76]

I haven't forgotten. But let's also not forget that Nadal has 5 W finals, 3 USO finals, 3 AO finals and 2 WTF finals to his name. That's a lot as well.

But yes, Fed was a good clay court player. It's one of the reasons he's wayyy ahead of Sampras. In fact, Sampras has the weakest record at the FO of any player in the Open Era with 6+ majors. It's one of the reasons why I never thought of him as the GOAT. Best fast-court player maybe, but not the GOAT. Clay is too important of a surface.

How many Wimbledon would rafa have in the 90s?

2010 was the last year the Uso was fast. They have slowed that down too.

To me, I think fed would have beaten ok in the 90's but of course it's impossible to say.

But I agree with you. I never felt like Pete was the goat because he did nothing on clay. How can you discount 1/3 of the tour.

 

[SLD76]

I could understand your point if the "8 lads" were picked at random, but they are the best 8 players in the world. In essence, a WTF can be almost as hard as winning a slam, maybe even harder depending on the draw.

He really showed his hand with that "only 8 " players didn't he? Lol

 

[aldeayeah]

Oh c'mon! His routes to the finals of his 5 non-RG slams:

2008 SW19: Youzhny-Murray-Schuettler
2009 AO: Gonzalez-Simon-Verdasco
2010 SW19: Mathieu-Soderling-Murray
2010 USO: Lopez-Verdasco-Youzhny
2013 USO: Kohlschreiber-Robredo-Gasquet

LOL, call that not-lucky?

In 2009 AO, Verdasco was on fire, same with Soderling in 2010 Wimbledon (watch the start of that match, it was a 5-0 clinic from Robin).

Also, you're discounting the finals for some reason.

 

[irishnadalfan1983]

I could understand your point if the "8 lads" were picked at random, but they are the best 8 players in the world. In essence, a WTF can be almost as hard as winning a slam, maybe even harder depending on the draw.

Different pressure at a GS. Best of 5 sets. Lower ranked players can play out of their skin.

Players try to peak for GS - players can often be tired/carrying innury at WTF - obviously same can happen at GS but more likely at WTF as it is end of year.

There wasn't even a break between WTF and Paris last year - that's how important it is.

I was too young to be watching tennis in 70's, 80's, early 90's. I have not idea how many WTF/YEC the likes of Borg, McEnroe, etc. won. I know exactly how many GS they won.

WTF/YEC is a joke - end of discussion.

 

[Russeljones]

I was too young to be watching tennis in 70's, 80's, early 90's.
WTF/YEC is a joke - end of discussion.

You seem well placed to make that judgment.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

How many Wimbledon would rafa have in the 90s?

2010 was the last year the Uso was fast. They have slowed that down too.

To me, I think fed would have beaten ok in the 90's but of course it's impossible to say.

But I agree with you. I never felt like Pete was the goat because he did nothing on clay. How can you discount 1/3 of the tour.

I'm not sure how many titles or finals Nadal would have at W in the 90s. But Agassi has a win and a final, and probably would have had a lot more if he weren't such a headcase. Nadal is a good player and would have been successful then as well. As successful? I'm not sure.