Is Rafa better than Novak on US open hard courts??

[mbm0912]

We are pretty much aware that Noavk is superior Hard courter to Rafa,but novak's records in US open is pretty dismal,he has 1-4 records in the finals as in comparison to Rafa who has 2-1 records in Us open finals.So what do you guys say,Is Rafa better than Novak on US open hard courts??

Why do you use that avatar?

 

[PSNELKE]

So according to that logic, Djokovic is better Wimbledon grasscourt player than Nadal. They met once at Wimbledon finals and Djokovic won. End of discussion,

WOW WOW WOW. Chico keeps emberassing himself mercilesly.
You clearly didn't get what the guy means. Nadal got more US Opens plus he got the better H2H against Novak in those finals.

That said. Wimbledon Nadal=2 titles Novak=1title. No point discussing that any further.

Djokovic will always be the more talented of the two. However, Rafa is a mental beast and that is how he has 2 slams, compared to Novak's 1 at the USO. Plus the occasional cake draw now and again has it's say as well.

Is that a fact or an opinion, bro?

 

[mbm0912]

WOW WOW WOW. Chico keeps emberassing himself mercilesly.
You clearly didn't get what the guy means. Nadal got more US Opens plus he got the better H2H against Novak in those finals.

That said. Wimbledon Nadal=2 titles Novak=1title. No point discussing that any further.



Is that a fact or an opinion, bro?

fact, bro.

 

[PSNELKE]

Hard to say really, Djokovic is more consistant but he's failed so many times in the championship match. Where Nadal has had 2 really dominant runs but hasn't felt like a year in year out favorite IMO.

I give it to Nadal for now, if Djokovic wins a second he'll be ahead by a comfortable margin.

This pretty much. At the end of the day people won't give a dang about your finals and SF. As long as one player got more titles at a certain tournament, he'll always be considered the greater player on that venue.
Not that Novak's USO title count won't increase, but for now it's clearly Nadal.

fact, bro.

Care to deepen that claim?

 

[DRII]

Nadal has performed some superlative aggregate tennis at the USO!

his 2010 effort was some of the best hard court tennis ever executed by any modern day player in men's history! and somewhat surprisingly, he's had some amazing serving stats in terms of fewest times broken at the USO (2010 and this year)!

Nadal > Nole, so far at the USO (qualitatively and quanitatively)...

 

[Crose]

Only in the eyes of Djokotrolls and Nadal haters is it better for player A to play a great semi and lose in the final than for player B to win the whole tournament by beating player A in the final.

 

[TheF1Bob]

WOW WOW WOW. Chico keeps emberassing himself mercilesly.
You clearly didn't get what the guy means. Nadal got more US Opens plus he got the better H2H against Novak in those finals.

That said. Wimbledon Nadal=2 titles Novak=1title. No point discussing that any further.



Is that a fact or an opinion, bro?

Fact, He defeated Federer at the USO twice, Rafa never.
Fact, Rafa had cake draw in both of his USO running's.
Fact, Novak didn't need 7 months off to be competitive.
Fact, Novak is just the better player.

Argument over.

 

[Crose]

Fact, He defeated Federer at the USO twice, Rafa never.
Fact, Rafa had cake draw in both of his USO running's.
Fact, Novak didn't need 7 months off to be competitive.
Fact, Novak is just the better player.

Argument over.

Yeah, Novak is the better player after...
Going 1 out of his last 5 slam finals
Losing 6 out of his last 7 matches against Rafa
Having only 1 year in his entire career where he won a slam outside of the AO

Give it up. Nadal is the better player. You and Chico just have to deal with it.

 

[PSNELKE]

Fact, He defeated Federer at the USO twice, Rafa never.

Where was Federer from 2010-2013? Not Ralph's fault. Sure, you can say where was Ralph until 2009? Would've probably lost. But Novak didn't beat Fed either until 2010 when Fed was way past his prime.

Fact, Rafa had cake draw in both of his USO running's.

Oh and Novak had a badass draw? ROFLMAO

Fact, Novak didn't need 7 months off to be competitive.

No he didn't. He just needed an egg, an esoteric doctor and a diet to be competitive and survive matches longer than 4 hours without collapsing.

Fact, Novak is just the better player.

13>>>>>>>>>6
22>>>>>>>>>15

Argument over.

I agree.

 

[TheF1Bob]

Yeah, Novak is the better player after...
Going 1 out of his last 5 slam finals
Losing 6 out of his last 7 matches against Rafa
Having only 1 year in his entire career where he won a slam outside of the AO

Give it up. Nadal is the better player. You and Chico just have to deal with it.

The guy needed 7 month lay off to fix his ego. He's beating these guys because both mentally and physically, he's so much fresher than the rest.

Next year is gonna be a reality check for BAMOS! and his excuse of a fanbase.

 

[Crose]

The guy needed 7 month lay off to fix his ego. He's beating these guys because both mentally and physically, he's so much fresher than the rest.

Next year is gonna be a reality check for BAMOS! and his excuse of a fanbase.

He was injured you delusional troll. He didn't need to fix anything besides his knees and overall health. To suggest otherwise is just complete and utter BS.

Nadal is just flat out better than Djokovic. You have literally no legitimate argument.

 

[Bender]

This is actually pretty tough.

For now I'd put them as about equal.

History would rate Rafa's record better however.

 

[Graf=GOAT]

Is 2 wins, 1 runner-up appearance necessarily better than 1 win, 4 runner-up appearances?

To answer this question, all you have to do is ask yourself honestly, what would you rather have - 2 titles and one RU or 1 title and 4 RU.

 

[lendledbergfan]

If we are talking about "US Open hard courts" then we also have to consider that Nadal has 4 masters on "USO hards" (3 Canada, 1 Cincinnati) while Djokovic just has 3 masters (3 Canada). Admittedly, he also has a few finals at Cincy as well.

So I'd just say, Djokovic is more "consistent" than Nadal on USO hards, but Nadal is "better" than him. The above facts merely support the already established premise based on the respective USO titles.

 

[Omega_7000]

I would have to say Nadal is better at this point...But I have a feeling Novak will eventually end up overtaking him.

 

[Anaconda]

Johansson went through Safin. Pretty legit win, imo.

Whilst this is true, Safin did pretty much hand Johansson that match. Safin should have won that. That wasn't his finest hour, that's for sure!

 

[timnz]

Worth of a final placing

Final have bigger factor than 0. Much bigger.

In fact we know exactly how much they are worth - the ATP tells us.

Let's take it away from personal opinion. Let's just measure it objectively on the hard data ie the specific US Open results.

Slam wins are worth 2000 points and Slam finals are worth 1200 points. Therefore making a slam final is 1200/2000 ie 60% of winning a Slam. Semi's are worth 720 points.

Hence the top five results for both players at the US Open are:

Nadal - 2 Wins, 1 losing Final, 2 losing semi-finals = (2000x2) + (1200x1) + (720x2) = 6640 points

Djokovic - 1 Win, 4 losing finals = (2000x1) + (1200x4) = 6800 points

So very close, but Djokovic ahead by a nose.

(We could look at the top 6 or top 7 performances instead of top 5 - but Djokovic is ahead on those counts as well).

 

[MichaelNadal]

He was injured you delusional troll. He didn't need to fix anything besides his knees and overall health. To suggest otherwise is just complete and utter BS.

Nadal is just flat out better than Djokovic. You have literally no legitimate argument.

They hate it lol :lol:

 

[TheF1Bob]

They hate it lol :lol:

The only thing I hate is my life.

 

[MichaelNadal]

The only thing I hate is my life.

-.-
You, Me... Topspin 4... tomorrow?

 

[Incognito]

In fact we know exactly how much they are worth - the ATP tells us.

Let's take it away from personal opinion. Let's just measure it objectively on the hard data ie the specific US Open results.

Slam wins are worth 2000 points and Slam finals are worth 1200 points. Therefore making a slam final is 1200/2000 ie 60% of winning a Slam. Semi's are worth 720 points.

Hence the top five results for both players at the US Open are:

Nadal - 2 Wins, 1 losing Final, 2 losing semi-finals = (2000x2) + (1200x1) + (720x2) = 6640 points

Djokovic - 1 Win, 4 losing finals = (2000x1) + (1200x4) = 6800 points

So very close, but Djokovic ahead by a nose.

(We could look at the top 6 or top 7 performances instead of top 5 - but Djokovic is ahead on those counts as well).

yeah, that's nice and all but I'll rather have 2 USO titles 1 than lol

 

[bullfan]

yeah, that's nice and all but I'll rather have 2 USO titles 1 than lol

Yea, I'd bet any player would prefer that. I guess I missed the part of Novaks presser, where he said, big deal if Nadal won, I've got more career points at the USOpen!

 

[RF20Lennon]

I would say Nadal because he has 2 titles and he has beaten Novak twice. But I expect Novak to end up as the better player with 3-4 USO's

 

[bullfan]

I would say Nadal because he has 2 titles and he has beaten Novak twice. But I expect Novak to end up as the better player with 3-4 USO's

That very well end up the case, but only time will tell!

 

[Chico]

To answer this question, all you have to do is ask yourself honestly, what would you rather have - 2 titles and one RU or 1 title and 4 RU.

If I am a tennis professional and I make my living playing tennis, than I would prefer 1 title + 4 RU for sure, since the price money for that would certainly be much bigger than for 2 titles and 1 RU.

Then I would not need to play all those exos Nadal plays each year he is not on sabbatical.

 

[Graf=GOAT]

If I am a tennis professional and I make my living playing tennis, than I would prefer 1 title + 4 RU for sure, since the price money for that would certainly be much bigger than for 2 titles and 1 RU.

Then I would not need to play all those exos Nadal plays each year he is not on sabbatical.

Yes, because at this point of their careers, both Nadal and Djokovic are starving. They need all the prize money they can get, LOL.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

2 is greater than 1, so yes.

 

[Crose]

The fact of the matter is if you're a player on the level of Djokovic or Nadal, no one gives a crap about how many finals you make. 10 years from now when they look at the US Open part of the Djokovic-Nadal rivalry, the 2 things that will be looked at is the trophies and H2H. Nadal has 2 trophies to Djokovic's 1, and leads their USO H2H 2 to 1. Case closed.

 

[Chico]

Yes, because at this point of their careers, both Nadal and Djokovic are starving. They need all the prize money they can get, LOL.

Why is Nadal playing all those exhos at the end of the year then? They are pros, this is their living. They care. They play for money first and than for fame and glory.

 

[firepanda]

You're cherry picking results. Narrowing down the sample space with a relatively flimsy distinction to make Nadal look better than Nole. I'm pretty sure that's some kind of fallacy. Anyway, Nole is the overall better hardcourter which is what matters. The fact he has won only one US is simply bad luck on his part.

 

[Chico]

You're cherry picking results. Narrowing down the sample space with a relatively flimsy distinction to make Nadal look better than Nole. I'm pretty sure that's some kind of fallacy. Anyway, Nole is the overall better hardcourter which is what matters. The fact he has won only one US is simply bad luck on his part.

I would agree with you if you didn't declare you are ignoring me. Not sure why though. You really hurt my feelings.

 

[Chico]

Why is Nadal playing all those exhos at the end of the year then? They are pros, this is their living. They care. They play for money first and than for fame and glory.

Clarky agrees it is all about the money too:

Well, sorry to inform you, but it is clearly about the money. Why else would he play 5 needless exos at the end of this season on top of all of these tournaments as well? He just wants to get paid, and to hell with prolonging his career. Nadal has always been this way and always will be.

 

[TheTruth]

Yea, I'd bet any player would prefer that. I guess I missed the part of Novaks presser, where he said, big deal if Nadal won, I've got more career points at the USOpen!

Too funny, aren't you the one who was talking about the player winning their first major and being disappointed that it wasn't Wimbledon?

If it wasn't you, you all share the same kind of humor.

Enjoyed this comment too.

 

[Kenshin]

At this point, Nadal is better player than Djokovic at USOpen. Novak results at USOpen and Cincy tells you the whole story. He is CLEARLY the slow hard court specialist.

 

[Mainad]

If we are talking about "US Open hard courts" then we also have to consider that Nadal has 4 masters on "USO hards" (3 Canada, 1 Cincinnati) while Djokovic just has 3 masters (3 Canada). Admittedly, he also has a few finals at Cincy as well.

If you include Indian Wells and Miami, then Djokovic has the edge in North American hardcourt Masters titles:

Djokovic: 3 Miami, 3 Canada, 2 Indian Wells = 8 titles.

Nadal: 3 Indian Wells, 3 Canada, 1 Cincinnati = 7 titles.

 

[Crose]

Is it a fact or an opinion?

Considering that he's won 6 out of their last 7 matches, he has a 63-3 record this season against Novak's 52-9 (10% better record), has 2 slams to Novak's 1, tied the record for most masters in a year this year, has won 10 out of the 12 finals he's made, and is undefeated in hard court this season, I'd say that it's pretty close to fact that he's better than Novak right now.

 

[objectivity]

probably not. novak is a better player on hard court than rafa, primarily because he opens up the court better than possibly anyone in history.

 

[The_Order]

probably not. novak is a better player on hard court than rafa, primarily because he opens up the court better than possibly anyone in history.

The question is US Open HC, not HC in general. In general, yes Novak is the better player on HC, but at the US Open, Nadal has beat him in 2/3 finals they played there. He's got 2 titles to 1 as a result of this and should therefore be considered better.

 

[Gonzo_style]

Titles: Nadal 2, Djokovic 1
H2H: Nadal 2-1.

Djokovic played 7 consecutive Semi-finals, 4 cons finals, victories against Federer (2x), Del Potro and Roddick (former USO champions).

slight edge to Nadal

 

[objectivity]

If you include Indian Wells and Miami, then Djokovic has the edge in North American hardcourt Masters titles:

Djokovic: 3 Miami, 3 Canada, 2 Indian Wells = 8 titles.

Nadal: 3 Indian Wells, 3 Canada, 1 Cincinnati = 7 titles.

hmmm... so nadal isn't THAT bad compared to djokovic on hard court as his detractors here (like chico) would have us believe!

 

[Deleted member 512391]

Yes, he is. He won two titles, Djokovic one, and that makes the difference.

And the titles are the only goal that players set before the tournament (it is not the best percentage, it is not positive H2H record against other players, not the number of winners or unforced errors, not the number of net approaches), so I think that the titles are the best (if not the only) measure.

 

[Egoista]

if djocko's mental game is on than he is better

 

[Deleted member 512391]

Titles: Nadal 2, Djokovic 1
H2H: Nadal 2-1.

Djokovic played 7 consecutive Semi-finals, 4 cons finals, victories against Federer (2x), Del Potro and Roddick (former USO champions).

slight edge to Nadal

H2H has absolutely nothing to do with someone's achievement on particular tournament.
Nadal is 2-0 against Federer at the AO, but nobody sane would consider him the better AO champion. Why? Because he's won less titles.

 

[MichaelNadal]

The question is US Open HC, not HC in general. In general, yes Novak is the better player on HC, but at the US Open, Nadal has beat him in 2/3 finals they played there. He's got 2 titles to 1 as a result of this and should therefore be considered better.

Only in wonderland is it even up for discussion.

 

[timnz]

Yes, he is. He won two titles, Djokovic one, and that makes the difference.

And the titles are the only goal that players set before the tournament (it is not the best percentage, it is not positive H2H record against other players, not the number of winners or unforced errors, not the number of net approaches), so I think that the titles are the best (if not the only) measure.

Does making the finals count for nothing though? Is making the final the same as losing in the first round? The ATP doesn't think so, it says that making the final is 60% as good as winning the tournament (1200/2000). That being the case, then Djokovic is slightly ahead. (Refer to my earlier post in this thread)

 

[Crose]

Does making the finals count for nothing though? Is making the final the same as losing in the first round? The ATP doesn't think so, it says that making the final is 60% as good as winning the tournament (1200/2000). That being the case, then Djokovic is slightly ahead. (Refer to my earlier post in this thread)

That is a flawed argument.

First of all, Nadal has never lost in the 1st round of the US open. In the past 5 US opens he's played in, Nadal has made 2 semis, 1 final, and won it twice. You're acting like he's won 2 trophies, and then lost in the 1st round every other time. Nadal has not made as many finals as Djokovic in the USO, but difference between a semi and a loss in the final isn't very large. Since 2007 both of them have been very consistent in going deep in the tournament.

BUT..Nadal has an extra title and an extra win on Novak to give him the edge.

 

[timnz]

That is a flawed argument.

First of all, Nadal has never lost in the 1st round of the US open. In the past 5 US opens he's played in, Nadal has made 2 semis, 1 final, and won it twice. You're acting like he's won 2 trophies, and then lost in the 1st round every other time. Nadal has not made as many finals as Djokovic in the USO, but difference between a semi and a loss in the final isn't very large. Since 2007 both of them have been very consistent in going deep in the tournament.

BUT..Nadal has an extra title and an extra win on Novak to give him the edge.

I didn't mean that Nadal has lost in the first round, I was merely reasoning that making the final wasn't nothing. And if it is something...what is it worth? The answer is 60% of a final (1200/2000). Hence if you add up their points from their best 5 or 6 or 7 best US opens - djokovic is ahead. Refer to my earlier post which shows the points added up.

 

[bullfan]

I didn't mean that Nadal has lost in the first round, I was merely reasoning that making the final wasn't nothing. And if it is something...what is it worth? The answer is 60%. Hence if you add up their points from their best 5 or 6 or 7 best US opens - djokovic is ahead. Refer to my earlier post which shows the points added up.

Titles matter more, particularly when they've played in 3 finals against each other, and Nadal has won 2 of the 3. Pretty simple.

 

[yunafan]

Yes, no contest. 2 to 1 in U.S Open titles AND 2 to 1 in U.S Open finals and overall U.S Open head to head. Plus did the Canada- Cincinnati-U.S Open triple, which Novak never did even in his dream year, heck Federer couldnt even do.

 

[timnz]

Titles matter more, particularly when they've played in 3 finals against each other, and Nadal has won 2 of the 3. Pretty simple.

Yes they do mean more. But not infinitely more...otherwise making the final means nothing....and we have already established that that isn't the case. The ATP recognizes that winning the titles means 2000/1200 more than the final ie 67% more. But that has been factored in in the calculation.

Repeating calculation post here:-


------------------------------------------------------------
Final have bigger factor than 0. Much bigger.
In fact we know exactly how much they are worth - the ATP tells us.

Let's take it away from personal opinion. Let's just measure it objectively on the hard data ie the specific US Open results.

Slam wins are worth 2000 points and Slam finals are worth 1200 points. Therefore making a slam final is 1200/2000 ie 60% of winning a Slam. Semi's are worth 720 points.

Hence the top five results for both players at the US Open are:

Nadal - 2 Wins, 1 losing Final, 2 losing semi-finals = (2000x2) + (1200x1) + (720x2) = 6640 points

Djokovic - 1 Win, 4 losing finals = (2000x1) + (1200x4) = 6800 points

So very close, but Djokovic ahead by a nose.

(We could look at the top 6 or top 7 performances instead of top 5 - but Djokovic is ahead on those counts as well).