How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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Not open for further replies.

Rhino

Legend
Naomi was handed a free game! WTF? I have never in all my life seen a man handed a free game. Do umpires only give women free games?? I have seen men do worse than Serena and yet they never give men a free game. Total sexism right there.

Oh wait, the men who have acted worse than Serena were only on their first or 2nd violation. Still. Umpires are obviously biased towards women. Actually it seems they are biased in favour Japanese women!

Disclaimer: Thats how ridiculous Serena sounds to me when she talks.
 

Rhino

Legend
I just realised, this thread will get deleted. That blows my mind.

All the meaningless school-boy banter that gets to live here and annoy 99% of posters is fine, but if you talk about anything where actual adults have an opinion on something important, like Serenas behaviour or the Kaepernick thing; you're gone!

Maybe I should get in line and start another Federer Is GOAT thread.
 

Federev

Legend
I just realised, this thread will get deleted. That blows my mind.

All the meaningless school-boy banter that gets to live here and annoy 99% of posters is fine, but if you talk about anything where actual adults have an opinion on something important, like Serenas behaviour or the Kaepernick thing; you're gone!

Maybe I should get in line and start another Federer Is GOAT thread.
FEDR
 

NLBwell

Legend
Serena was wrong to do it and I think BJK is wrong here but BJK doesn't "have an agenda", she has been fighting for women rights her whole life and achieved great things for equality of women. People who accuse feminists of the victim card are racist white and male supremacists who are afraid of a change of the status quo, those very same guys then cry foul when blacks get college stipends or evolution theory is on the curriculum.

Definitely racism in this post.
 

max

Legend
I dislike Williams as a person and I am not an American so the first thing that strikes the outside observer is that the idea that it is lack of 'sportsmanship' that disturbs people about Williams is patently absurd.

Interesting. I'm American, and I think their "us against the world" approach served the Williams sisters very well in the beginning as a powerful motivational tool . . . but when you're on top, this approach disintegrates. I suppose there may have been separate "racist" things in the past (of course, to me, at age 55, some perspective is needed: the slights blacks face in 2018 are vastly tiny in comparison to that faced by blacks in 1918, and, in fact, i've seen white people bend over backwards to help, assist, further, black people; many of these helpful people, likely more than there are serious racists in the US (but this is a conjecture; I don't have the stats) ). I think the smash-mouth tennis approach isn't new; Jimmy Connors was its greatest exponent. . . but this approach, too, has a negativity that makes the public dislike the player. Jimmy only really got popular in his decline; and perhaps McEnroe, too.

As an American, I'm tired of the whole "me a victim here" tactic. Serena's point about the male game is irrelevant. She's female and doesn't play male players, and she knows how the rules are applied to the matches she plays. My guess here is that she was frustrated and angry on court, seeing the trophy slip away, and began her loser's whining and crying before the game was over. I question whether she's been that helpful generally to the sport of tennis, although there are plenty of TV mouths and pundits who want to sell us that idea.

I applaud the umpire for applying the rules to the game. More should follow his leadership.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
If you follow people's words and terms closely you can easily see that the game of tennis is not of any great interest to a lot of people when they criticise Williams.

Interesting. I'm American, and I think their "us against the world" approach served the Williams sisters very well in the beginning as a powerful motivational tool . . . but when you're on top, this approach disintegrates. I suppose there may have been separate "racist" things in the past (of course, to me, at age 55, some perspective is needed: the slights blacks face in 2018 are vastly tiny in comparison to that faced by blacks in 1918, and, in fact, i've seen white people bend over backwards to help, assist, further, black people; many of these helpful people, likely more than there are serious racists in the US (but this is a conjecture; I don't have the stats) ). I think the smash-mouth tennis approach isn't new; Jimmy Connors was its greatest exponent. . . but this approach, too, has a negativity that makes the public dislike the player. Jimmy only really got popular in his decline; and perhaps McEnroe, too.

As an American, I'm tired of the whole "me a victim here" tactic. Serena's point about the male game is irrelevant. She's female and doesn't play male players, and she knows how the rules are applied to the matches she plays. My guess here is that she was frustrated and angry on court, seeing the trophy slip away, and began her loser's whining and crying before the game was over. I question whether she's been that helpful generally to the sport of tennis, although there are plenty of TV mouths and pundits who want to sell us that idea.

I applaud the umpire for applying the rules to the game. More should follow his leadership.
 

MLRoy

Hall of Fame
When the US Open American commentators turn on Serena ... you know she has done messed up
Did they? All I heard from John McEnroe(!!!), Chris Evert, et al, is that Ramos should have given her a "soft warning", that he's "never done a women's final before," and that "everybody does it" (coaching). Someone actually piped up about Serena "saving" the trophy ceremony! But those shills turning on "Queen" Shillrena would probably be a sign of the Apocalypse so, as long as we know better... ;^)B
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
thank you. you are correct. that's one of those tricky grammar situations. but hey now i'll remember for the future.
It's not tricky really.

If you could care less it would mean you haven't yet reached the depths how little you care. This indicates what you're saying is you care more than nothing about the topic.

When you couldn't care less you are saying you have reached the zero point in you capacity to care. Ergo, you use this when you want to show you care nothing about the topic. :cool:
 

skyline

Legend
MLK would be turning in his grave right now if he saw the way all the “woke” minorities are behaving. (Defending criminals based on skin colour, attacking cops, not taking responsibility for their actions/choices, rioting, looting local businesses, discriminating against and attacking white people for being white etc etc etc)

Maybe you need to take his advice and listen to the content of his speeches and not assume that he agrees with you because he’s black....:rolleyes:

Or, as you put it, “eDuCaTe YoUrSeLf”

Nonsense. MLK would be very pro-BLM and aghast at people who excuse harsher treatment of POC by police officers as a myth.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
Did they? All I heard from John McEnroe(!!!), Chris Evert, et al, is that Ramos should have given her a "soft warning", that he's "never done a women's final before," and that "everybody does it" (coaching)...
I don't get this line of logic from McEnroe etc. You can give people a soft warning for a lot of things but not coaching.

The reason for this is because the player didn't instigate it. A soft warning would entail sending someone over to the player's box and telling the coach not to give hand signals. It's impractical and fraught with other potential issues (like them denying it or arguing). It would also increase the player's ability to say "don't blame me."

The rules are written how they are probably for good reason - make the penalty serious enough that players and coaches don't dare try be clever-***** and blame each other or, as Serena did, try and say she didn't even see any hand signals (despite the fact she did precisely what he was telling her to do on 3 or 4 of the next 5 or 6 points).
 

MLRoy

Hall of Fame
I'm sorry but this is terrible behaviour by Serena, absolutely terrible, there's no excuse for this.
Oh, don't worry, they'll find some. On Twatter, BJK twatted "When women are emotional they're hysterical, but when a man does it..." You know, the usual excuses from "feminists" who expect extra consideration because they're female.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Djokovic says Carlos should not have pushed Serena to the limit and that he changed the course of the match. Very interesting.
I love Serena, first of all,” Djokovic said.

“I really felt for her yesterday. Tough thing for a chair umpire to deal with, as well. We have to empathise with him. Everyone was in a very awkward situation yesterday. A lot of emotions. Serena was crying. Naomi was crying. It was really, really tough.

“But I have my personal opinion that maybe the chair umpire should not have pushed Serena to the limit, especially in a grand slam final.

“He did change the course of the match. (It) was in my opinion, maybe unnecessary. We all go through our emotions, especially when you’re fighting for a grand slam trophy.

“But I don’t think it’s (the right) time and place to get into other subjects. I don’t agree with (WTA CEO) Mr Steve Simon. I really don’t. I think men and women are treated this way or the other way depending on the situation. It’s hard to generalise things. I don’t see it’s necessary really to debate that.

“I just feel like — as Serena said yesterday — in the closing ceremonies, Osaka deserves to have her moment.

“As for Serena, she knows I love her. She really inspires everyone. To see her being so dedicated and so committed to this sport, it’s inspiring to me and to many tennis players, both men and women, around the world.”

He also didn’t really want to get into the gender debate. Fascinating hearing an actual tennis players opinion instead of some forumers.
 

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic says Carlos should not have pushed Serena to the limit and that he changed the course of the match. Very interesting.


He also didn’t really want to get into the gender debate. Fascinating hearing an actual tennis players opinion instead of some forumers.
There are tennis playets without balls and forum users without balls. Nothing new.
 

max

Legend
If you follow people's words and terms closely you can easily see that the game of tennis is not of any great interest to a lot of people when they criticise Williams.

I haven't watched TV news on this or read papers. I'm guessing you're right. I think the real nub of the matter is how Serena psyches herself up for a match. Just compare to John McEnroe. In the long run, this might be a destructive methodology.

There is a lot of behind-the-scenes gamesmanship in the Williams sister's history. As well as plenty of aid-and-abettors who wanted to see black tennis players make good (in the same way, scads of whites voted for Obama exactly because of his race; they were happy to see the potentials for success and wanted to share in promoting this--I've seen interesting vote data. But to me, the "race question" here isn't at all the critical one. To me, it's how Serena pumps up for the game, the ego of a rich and powerful tennis legend. Do you think perhaps our moral vocabulary in 2018 is starting to misspeak when things like this happen? make things fit into reified categories rather than treat them as individuals in their own right? This might explain Serena's explanations.

Anyway, it was a classic situation in which the underdog had nothing to lose and the top dog had just marginal gain for the win; this makes a player jumpy, particularly if they haven't matched up much before and you don't know how to play him.
 

MLRoy

Hall of Fame
I don't get this line of logic from McEnroe etc. You can give people a soft warning for a lot of things but not coaching.

The reason for this is because the player didn't instigate it. A soft warning would entail sending someone over to the player's box and telling the coach not to give hand signals. It's impractical and fraught with other potential issues (like them denying it or arguing). It would also increase the player's ability to say "don't blame me."

The rules are written how they are probably for good reason - make the penalty serious enough that players and coaches don't dare try be clever-***** and blame each other or, as Serena did, try and say she didn't even see any hand signals (despite the fact she did precisely what he was telling her to do on 3 or 4 of the next 5 or 6 points).
To be fair, the "soft warning" all of the former players were in agreement with may have been when she was calling him names. BUT... the flawed logic (only kind these commentators possess) with that is, would you really want to add fuel to her fire by saying "if you continue calling me names I'll penalize you", or hope she'll calm down on her own after the first round of insults?? Personally, I'd NEVER "soft warn" someone with her temper. She demanded an apology several times before that game penalty, then insults him several times loudly for everyone to hear, then wonders why she didn't get "soft" discretionary treatment from him! You know if McEnroe had been umpiring, he'd have been very apologetic toward her and apologized, and given her several soft warnings...
 

VaporDude95

Banned
Djokovic says Carlos should not have pushed Serena to the limit and that he changed the course of the match. Very interesting.

He also didn’t really want to get into the gender debate. Fascinating hearing an actual tennis players opinion instead of some forumers.

They all have to walk on eggshells because they all share the players space with her.

I love how when a man becomes violent, he has to take responsibility for his actions. But when I woman becomes violent, it’s all “oh what did he do for her to react like that”?

Stop it with this nonsense. Women are equal and have control of their own bodies do they not? If they do, then they’re equal enough to grow up and take responsibility.
 

donquijote

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic says Carlos should not have pushed Serena to the limit and that he changed the course of the match. Very interesting.


He also didn’t really want to get into the gender debate. Fascinating hearing an actual tennis players opinion instead of some forumers.

It was Serena who pushed the umpire to the limits, not the other way around.
Djokovic cannot be taken serious.
Continue searching to find support and excuse for the thug behavior everyone witnessed.
 

max

Legend
. . . . correct me (gently) if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the sense that the whole western world is getting tired of the political-correctness-format.

I'm "Jesuitical" in that I like to assess each situation, person as it comes.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
It was Serena who pushed the umpire to the limits, not the other way around.
Djokovic cannot be taken serious.
Continue searching to find support and excuse for the thug behavior everyone witnessed.
I’m just posting thoughts and opinions from actual tennis players like Djokovic and JMac instead of random ass forumers :) i’m not actually bothering to discuss this crap anymore. It just goes around and round in circles and then ends up on a stupid discussion about MLK.
 

MLRoy

Hall of Fame
Eh, kind of like how you "just assumed" I don't like black people simply because I was criticising Serena Williams.
I assUmed the same because of the multiple excuses he posts responding to her every criticism. You don't think he's Richard Williams, do you?!
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
. . . . correct me (gently) if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the sense that the whole western world is getting tired of the political-correctness-format.

I'm "Jesuitical" in that I like to assess each situation, person as it comes.
It swings back and forth. It can get dangerous if it swings to much one way or the other. Many people who bemoan pc stuff have good intentions. Others well, their intentions aint exactly honorable. There are villains on both sides. The very anti pc people who think everything would just be wonderful if people were not so sensitive really don't give two craps about the history that proceeded some of this pc stuff. Hitler was not pc.
 

Chopin

Hall of Fame
I've followed some of the media coverage of the event and there's obviously a lot of commentators who simply don't know much about tennis or its rules who are trying to push their agendas. I'm happy to see, though, that people are cooling down just a bit and that there are actually some thoughtful, well-argued rebuttals to some of the more ignorant commentators in comments sections (of course, there are also a lot of idiots commenting). The NYT published a more balanced op-ed this evening (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/sports/tennis/serena-williams-us-open-equality.html), one that even points out that Ramos has a history of being a stickler for the rules in men's matches.

The coverage in the Washington Post, on the other hand, has been pretty one-sided. I'm not a fan of the paper--it's always struck me as second-rate compared with the Times and I'll never forgive their editorial board for carrying water for George W. Bush going into the second Iraq War.

The Billy Jean King op-ed is poorly argued:

King writes, "Did Ramos treat Williams differently than male players have been treated? I think he did. Women are treated differently in most arenas of life. This is especially true for women of color."

Where is the evidence that Ramos treated Williams differently? There's a documented history of Ramos handing out code violations to male players (https://news.sky.com/story/serena-w...player-umpire-carlos-ramos-has-upset-11494215). And, hold on a second, Osaka is a woman of color, too (what's with all the American-centric perspectives?). King simply doesn't provide any evidence to back up her claim about Ramos appllied the rules unfairly to Serena. Facts matter.

In another op-ed (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3aa18412df22), the author argues, "Ramos did not openly state that Williams was cheating, but the implication of the umpire’s decision left little room for doubt that he believed she was trying to gain an unfair advantage...Yet, instead of warning Mouratoglou, Ramos had penalized Williams — a professional athlete with 23 Grand Slam singles titles, and therefore well versed in tennis rules and regulations — for her male coach’s faux pas."

This is obviously an example of someone commenting who doesn't fully understand the penalty rules in tennis surrounding coaching. In tennis, the coaches don't get warned for coaching violations, the players do. There's simply not an option to warn Patrick; the penalty falls on the player. Furthermore, Patrick admitted he was trying to coach! Why would he be signaling for her to come into net if Serena never is open to receiving in-match coaching? The very fact that he was coaching undercuts the argument Serena was making to the chair (i.e. I never receive coaching)!

There are other op-eds in the Washington Post that have holes in them, too.

Just so we're clear, like reasonable people everywhere, I fully acknowledge that sexism and gender-stereotyping are huge problems. Let's all work towards equality. However, let's also acknowledge when someone is simply being a sport because they're losing.

To shift the focus back where it belongs: Serena's praise during the trophy ceremony that Osaka played "well" was a bit lacking: Osaka played amazingly well.
 
D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
I’m just posting thoughts and opinions from actual tennis players like Djokovic and JMac instead of random ass forumers :) i’m not actually bothering to discuss this crap anymore. It just goes around and round in circles and then ends up on a stupid discussion about MLK.

Djokovic also said women shouldn't get equal prize money. I didn't see you quoting him then.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
To be fair, the "soft warning" all of the former players were in agreement with may have been when she was calling him names. BUT... the flawed logic (only kind these commentators possess) with that is, would you really want to add fuel to her fire by saying "if you continue calling me names I'll penalize you", or hope she'll calm down on her own after the first round of insults?? Personally, I'd NEVER "soft warn" someone with her temper. She demanded an apology several times before that game penalty, then insults him several times loudly for everyone to hear, then wonders why she didn't get "soft" discretionary treatment from him! You know if McEnroe had been umpiring, he'd have been very apologetic toward her and apologized, and given her several soft warnings...
Many I've seen have been specifically about the coaching, hence my post going through the difficulties of giving soft warnings for coaching.

The way I see it coaching is among the more serious offences since it goes to the core of the notion of tennis players being self-sufficient while on court. Breaking a racquet or kicking a water bottle for example is just frustration and doesn't really have significant impact on how a player is playing the match.

I agree completely though on umpires leaning over the players on ends and saying "cut it out or I'm going to warn you." This right here is where the men seem to handle the umpires better - they heed the chats/warnings even though they earn them at a higher rate than women. This incident though wasn't due to the umpire's failings, it's was Serena's for ignoring the well-known escalation in severity of penalties which she has already fallen foul to previously.
 

Mr.Lob

G.O.A.T.
I’m just posting thoughts and opinions from actual tennis players like Djokovic and JMac instead of random ass forumers :) i’m not actually bothering to discuss this crap anymore. It just goes around and round in circles and then ends up on a stupid discussion about MLK.

Yes...we get it. You dont like "forumers". Congratulations on making this announcement for the 10th time.
 
D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
Actually I did when he said that... and I said I disagreed.

Here’s a thread I did mentioning it: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...gers-and-smaller-events.558618/#post-10140581

Nice try though sweetie. Maybe use the search function next time?


Good night.

You are missing the core of my point due to your emotionality. By "quote" I mean use in order to support your position.

Becasuse what I was replying to was what you just said
I’m just posting thoughts and opinions from actual tennis players like Djokovic and JMac instead of random ass forumers
The implication there obviously is that "random ass forumers" are automatically unqualified to comment on the subject compared to pros or television commentators. But really it's only because they happen to agree with you in this situation, as I pointed out another situation where you vehemently disagreed with Djokovic and were in agreement with some "random ass forumers" on here.

BTW, it's unlikely you would get the honest opinion of a colleague because it would seem like a direct shot. It's a bad PR move. Actually, to be honest and because unlike you I'm not an ideologue, I think the code violation that led to a game default was borderline although by the letter of the law Ramos was not wrong. Serena really pushed it at the end and wouldn't let up, he didn't just give it to her at the first sign of a disagreement or something.

What was incontrovertible was that Serena behaved badly and her accusations of sexism after were insulting to our intelligence and undermined real sexism.

Please cool it with the "sweeties", there is no need to get emotional on this subject.
 

skyline

Legend
MLK would be pro-BLM? For real?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

More white people get targeted and shot by police than black people per capita.
The problem that no one is willing to face is the replacement of the black father with the state. But it’s not like you’re going to think critically or anything, so I’ll just end it there.

Ah, yes, the old adage about welfare programs ruining minorities. MLK would've been your bud for sure.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
You are missing the core of my point due to your emotionality. By "quote" I mean use in order to support your position.

Becasuse what I was replying to was what you just said The implication there obviously is that "random ass forumers" are automatically unqualified to comment on the subject compared to pros or television commentators. But really it's only because they happen to agree with you in this situation, as I pointed out another situation where you vehemently disagreed with Djokovic and were in agreement with some "random ass forumers" on here.

BTW, it's unlikely you would get the honest opinion of a colleague because it would seem like a direct shot. It's a bad PR move. Actually, to be honest and because unlike you I'm not an ideologue, I think the code violation that led to a game default was borderline although by the letter of the law Ramos was not wrong.

What was incontrovertible was that Serena behaved badly and her accusations of sexism after were insulting to our intelligence and undermined real sexism.

Please cool it with the "sweeties", there is no need to get emotional on this subject.
As I said earlier, I’m not debating this or taking a position, just posting what an actual tennis player said as nobody had posted what Novak had said yet. That is all. Thanks.
 

VaporDude95

Banned
Ah, yes, the old adage about welfare programs ruining minorities. MLK would've been your bud for sure.

When the African American community has a single motherhood rate upwards of 70% and commits over 50% of violent crime despite being only 13% of the US population, there’s a problem. The first step to fixing it is acknowledging it and addressing it.

Funny how you only want to talk about problems that you can blame on men or white people :rolleyes:
That’s how we got to this situation in the first place.
 
D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
As I said earlier, I’m not debating this or taking a position, just posting what an actual tennis player said as nobody had posted what Novak had said yet. That is all. Thanks.

Fine, my personal opinion is that it's unfortunate to cost a game at that stage of a match, but it should be remembered also that it was an accrued penalty (3rd code violation).

I don't think it's the umpire's job to decide to not give a code violation based on what it will result in or to base it on the timing of where it is in the match (although it was unfortunate.)
 

donquijote

G.O.A.T.
I’m just posting thoughts and opinions from actual tennis players like Djokovic and JMac instead of random ass forumers :) i’m not actually bothering to discuss this crap anymore. It just goes around and round in circles and then ends up on a stupid discussion about MLK.
What is so fascinating (as you commented) about Djokovic's thoughts? He and MacEnroe will not say their true opinions on this issue because of their positions and everyone knows that. If you find forum discussions having no value, what is your business here? Why do you need to belittle forumers with every chance while you are also one of them?
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
What is so fascinating (as you commented) about Djokovic's thoughts? He and MacEnroe will not say their true opinions on this issue because of their positions and everyone knows that. If you find forum discussions having no value, what is your business here? Why do you need to belittle forumers with every chance while you are also one of them?
I think actual tennis players are more qualified on this topic than fans of the game like us. Considering they are the ones out there playing, they’d know the rules and how they’re implemented much better then we do.

Now I’m off to bed.
 

VaporDude95

Banned
I think actual tennis players are more qualified on this topic than fans of the game like us. Considering they are the ones out there playing, they’d know the rules and how they’re implemented much better then we do.

Now I’m off to bed.

You’re off to bed? It’s 2:43pm here in Australia.

And I guess that means you’ll finally admit that Trump is more qualified to comment on pay and abortion than you are :p
 
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