Shanghai Surface Debate

[The tennis guy]

I do have a question for you guys, and that is why did Pat Rafter never do very well in the European indoor season after the U.S. Open. Even after his U.S. Open wins?

Talk about a great S&V player -- one of the best in recent memory, but he absolutely hated the indoor carpet season, and said so at times.

This is a theory, but I think players who grow up playing outdoors tend to prefer that regardless of the quickness of the court. That had to be true of Pat. Either that, or he got his US Open victory, and didn't care after that. Or is it just a matter of the Europeans feeling more comfortable in those indoor European events?

Any thoughts?

1. You partially answered your question. Rafter always played 5-6 weeks straight on outdoor hardcourts before US Open. So he didn't play much afterwards or took it easy.

2. His high kick serve was not as effective on carpet or grass as on hardcourt. Rafter had that loopy forehand as well. Rafter is different from traditional serve and volleyers like Becker and Edberg who had relatively flat ground stroke.

3. Conditioning is not a big factor indoors as outdoors. Rafter's advantage in hot and humid condition was gone if played indoors.

4. Your theory isn't true. Both Sampras and Agassi didn't play indoor much growing up, both loved indoors. Becker and Edberg were great indoor players because of their game as well as growing up playing more indoors.

 

[jings]

Meant to post on this yesterday but didn't get time. Perhaps late but still ....
Last time I checked we are talking about the very best people at this sport on the entire planet. If the poor pampered elite of the tennis world can't adjust to a particular surface that might play a hair faster than some others they've hit on through the season then things have come to a pretty sorry state. Outside of clay and grass which I trust we can all agree are very separate surfaces in their own right, far too much is read into the supposed vast differences across the artificial hard courts. Shanghai is the same court for everyone so stop moaning and get on with it. Far more relevant I think will be the roof policy and how and when it will be closed.

As to Goran and Roddick I'd have thought the difference was obvious. Goran could and did follow in behind his serve and had feather touch at the net. Andrew "Stonehands" Roddick does not - but he is improving. Also Goran was an evil leftie which we've now established lends mystical powers to those who choose to use it.

 

[The tennis guy]

Meant to post on this yesterday but didn't get time. Perhaps late but still ....
Last time I checked we are talking about the very best people at this sport on the entire planet. If the poor pampered elite of the tennis world can't adjust to a particular surface that might play a hair faster than some others they've hit on through the season then things have come to a pretty sorry state. Outside of clay and grass which I trust we can all agree are very separate surfaces in their own right, far too much is read into the supposed vast differences across the artificial hard courts. Shanghai is the same court for everyone so stop moaning and get on with it. Far more relevant I think will be the roof policy and how and when it will be closed.

Yes, they can adjust, but certain players or style of play adjusts better than others. Federer can definitely adjust better than Nadal. To dismiss surface difference is probably due to the fact you don't know about the differences. Carpet is certainly quite different from hardcourt. If we have separate ranking for different surface (hard, grass, clay, carpet), you'll find hard and carpet are quite different. You don't have the difference much in the last 5 years because ATP got rid of most carpet events to slow down the game. Now they want to add carpet back as a surface to encourage different styles of play.

By the way, Shanghai will be indoor event on supreme type of carpet. There is no discussion of open the roof at all. The weather there is not warm enough in Nov. for outdoor tennis event.

The other thing I want to add is Goran played a lot more on carpet than Roddick. It takes time to get used to it. There aren't many carpet events left in the last 5 years. For example, Nadal hasn't even played one event on carpet all year along. 10 years ago, 80-90% indoor events were played on carpet

 

[Rabbit]

Last time I checked we are talking about the very best people at this sport on the entire planet. If the poor pampered elite of the tennis world can't adjust to a particular surface that might play a hair faster than some others they've hit on through the season then things have come to a pretty sorry state.

Very well put.

Outside of clay and grass which I trust we can all agree are very separate surfaces in their own right, far too much is read into the supposed vast differences across the artificial hard courts.

I wasn't aware that there were natural hard courts available!

 

[Camilio Pascual]

I do have a question for you guys, and that is why did Pat Rafter never do very well in the European indoor season after the U.S. Open.

Talk about a great S&V player -- one of the best in recent memory, but he absolutely hated the indoor carpet season, and said so at times.
Any thoughts?

I think you answered your own question and it is the right answer.

 

[gts072]

Suck it up Toni! They will not change the surface just to give your nephew the best chance to win. If you consider Nadal to be a top player, he should very well know how to play and win on every goddamn surface!!! Dumba$$ people!

 

[VamosRafa]

From Bob Larson Tennis re Hewitt status:


Hewitt Wants to Play Shanghai But…


Two-time world No. 1 Lleyton Hewitt will base any appearance at next month's Masters Cup upon the state of his health and the timetable for birth of his first child.

The Australian, who has not played since pulling out prior to a quarterfinal last month in Bangkok, will only make up his mind about traveling to Shanghai for the Nov. 13 start of the event at the last moment.

Hewitt's management said that if the child wife Bec Cartwright is expecting in late November comes early, then all bets are off.

In addition, manager Rob Aivatoglou, confirmed to Australian press that groin and toe injuries - the latter corrected recently with surgery - are still bothering Hewitt.

 

[@wright]

Rocky needs to get his priorities in order - he has a child on the way and he isn't worried about working to provide for his wife & baby?

 

[jings]

Tennis Guy to clarify a little one would think from the way different hard (not artificial, thanks Rabbit) surfaces are viewed that we were talking the extremes of grass and clay. I've played on just about any surface I can think of (including tarmac with holes in it that would be a proper test for the top guys, and play on a revolting purple carpet here occassionally) and have watched enough over my years on this mortal coil to appreciate that there are differences. But I come back to the point that these are the very best guys in the world. They're paid to adjust and are good enough to do so. Fair enough that one surface will suit a given player better than another, that's a given. But over a season they play on different surfaces and everything evens out and you just have to do your best with what you've got. It's a little like F1 drivers saying that they won't race in the wet because it's a bit more slippery. It's different, not what they'd ask for, a great deal more dangerous, but they suck it up and get on with it. Hopefully this proves to be the case and we get a great TMC. Thanks for the clarification on the roof, which again will help some more than others.

 

[DashaandSafin]

Oh no!!! Guys Uncle Toni does not approve. I guess China must change resurface its courts quick! Give me a break. Why dont we make clay courts the only surface in the world? So Nadal can win everything and VamosRafa will post articles proclaming Nadal as the next GOAT. Jeez...stop complaining. Be glad Nadal was not born 10 years earlier and had to suffer through the extremly quick surfaces of the 90's. Sampras would have put a hole through his monkey head.

 

[127mph]

Safin!!! Yea!!!

 

[tennisjunkiela]

OhJeez...stop complaining. Be glad Nadal was not born 10 years earlier and had to suffer through the extremly quick surfaces of the 90's. Sampras would have put a hole through his monkey head.

If the ATP Masters was on clay every year, the hard court players would certainly be complaining too. likewise, it is unfair to the clay court players that their season ending championship is always played on hard courts. to be fair to everyone, the surface should be rotated from year to year.

BTW, i believe that the reason so many players (men and women) are getting injured is from playing so many tournaments on hard courts. hard courts are very unforgiving on knees, ligaments, hips, etc.

not even 20 years ago, the us open, australian, etc were all played on a variety of surfaces from grass to clay, etc. and therefore, players were able to have relative long career without major injury. now with so many of the top tournaments on hard courts, most of the top women players are or have been injured. likewise, many of the men players, even the ones in prime condition, like federer, are getting injured.

 

[zorg]

So much stuff, don't feel like reading it all. What is the surface? Really fast hard court?

 

[Swan Song]

Toni Nadal complaining is just stupid. Over the past years, people saw Chang in the 1995 Masters Final beating Pete in the semis and losing to Becker. The world also saw Alex Corretja winning the 1998 Masters against Carlos Moya two sets down. How can Nadal complain if Alex Corretja, supposedly known as a clay-courter, won the Masters in 1998?

 

[Guga_x]

Complaining or not, if this is suposed to be the event to crown the best player in the world it should be played with similar odds to everyone.

My idea would be of the top 4 men battling it out against each other on 2 surfaces (clay and hard or carpet), league style and se who came out on top.

That would be fair to everyone.

 

[tennisjunkiela]

Complaining or not, if this is suposed to be the event to crown the best player in the world it should be played with similar odds to everyone.

My idea would be of the top 4 men battling it out against each other on 2 surfaces (clay and hard or carpet), league style and se who came out on top.

That would be fair to everyone.

Excellent point!

 

[andfor]

Complaining or not, if this is suposed to be the event to crown the best player in the world it should be played with similar odds to everyone.

My idea would be of the top 4 men battling it out against each other on 2 surfaces (clay and hard or carpet), league style and se who came out on top.

That would be fair to everyone.

Nice. How about before the championship match begins picking from a hat what surface is chosen to play on? Of course if this was the case Chadwixx would say it was rigged by the USTA and Nike.:mrgreen:

Seriously Toni Nadal should STFU!

 

[rhubarb]

My idea would be of the top 4 men battling it out against each other on 2 surfaces (clay and hard or carpet), league style and se who came out on top.

It might be fairer, but it would be quite dangerous I think, to get the players to swap surfaces so quickly at the end of a long season.

 

[tennisjunkiela]

It might be fairer, but it would be quite dangerous I think, to get the players to swap surfaces so quickly at the end of a long season.

Dangerous? Players switch from clay at Roland Garros to the grass court season the following week. And then straight to hard courts after Wimbledon.

 

[Noelle]

re: post#10, Welcome to my ignore list.

You sound familiar.

 

[rhubarb]

Dangerous? Players switch from clay at Roland Garros to the grass court season the following week. And then straight to hard courts after Wimbledon.

Yes, the following *week*. From RG to Halle/Queen's, only two players have less than three days to switch, all the others have longer (and it's still not really long enough). Most players take a break after Wimbledon or play clay before they move to hardcourt, btw.

Imagine having just one day to adjust and having to play on all surfaces inside a week. Believe me, they would not like it, and with good reason.

 

[Rabbit]

IMO, one of the great (and most overlooked) things about tennis is that it is contested on different surfaces. This means that not only do the competitors in singles have to compete without coaches, they have to contend with different environmentals. To be considered the greatest in the world, you must be able to adapt and overcome deficiencies in your game and beat a guy who's trying to do the same. To be one of the top 8 players on the planet, you have to be able to compete on any surface. I say stop your belly aching and play ball!

 

[DashaandSafin]

You sound familiar.

Haha he does didnt he....so he ignored VamosRafa?

 

[The tennis guy]

Toni Nadal complaining is just stupid. Over the past years, people saw Chang in the 1995 Masters Final beating Pete in the semis and losing to Becker. The world also saw Alex Corretja winning the 1998 Masters against Carlos Moya two sets down. How can Nadal complain if Alex Corretja, supposedly known as a clay-courter, won the Masters in 1998?

Actually you just prove Toni's point. 1998 Master was the start of slowing down the surface of Master Cup. If it were played on that surface, Nadal would have a good chance; but on a really fast surface like Shanghai this year, his chance declines dramatically. It is just the truth.

I generally agree with speeding up the indoor carpet speed to the level of mid 90s to give serve and volleyer a better chance. Toni's complain just shows deep down, he knows Nadal is not all-surface player yet, unlike many people on this board.

 

[The tennis guy]

Dangerous? Players switch from clay at Roland Garros to the grass court season the following week. And then straight to hard courts after Wimbledon.

Yes, switching surface quickly makes player prone to injury. Hardcourt is not good for your body. If you ask players, they would say constant switching of surface is as bad for your body.

 

[The tennis guy]

Yes, the following *week*. From RG to Halle/Queen's, only two players have less than three days to switch, all the others have longer (and it's still not really long enough). Most players take a break after Wimbledon or play clay before they move to hardcourt, btw.

Imagine having just one day to adjust and having to play on all surfaces inside a week. Believe me, they would not like it, and with good reason.

I agree completely. If you use one surface either too fast or too slow, you have one or two players complain. If you ask them to switch surface in one day during top competition, almost all players will complain.

 

[jhhachamp]

likewise, many of the men players, even the ones in prime condition, like federer, are getting injured.

Didn't Federer roll his ankle? I don't think a rolled ankle can be blamed on the surface.

 

[Swan Song]

Actually you just prove Toni's point. 1998 Master was the start of slowing down the surface of Master Cup. If it were played on that surface, Nadal would have a good chance; but on a really fast surface like Shanghai this year, his chance declines dramatically. It is just the truth.

I generally agree with speeding up the indoor carpet speed to the level of mid 90s to give serve and volleyer a better chance. Toni's complain just shows deep down, he knows Nadal is not all-surface player yet, unlike many people on this board.

Oops. I guess I didn't pay attention to it. Maybe I generalized the term "indoor carpet court" as being fast. What did they do to the 1998 Masters carpet, put sand in it?

 

[Chloe]

re: post#10, Welcome to my ignore list.

Oh, please. There was nothing wrong with that post. Please put me on ignore too

 

[laurie]

Its about time the Masters Cup is on a faster surface. Tennis Guy remember we discussed this before? I'm all for it. The only problem is there might not be many players worth watching. That means the tournament could be really good because other players step up, or really dull.

I really like clay court tennis now more than I used to having been to Roland Garros twice. But the clay court season starts in January in places like Acupulco (Mexico), Chile, Argentina and Brazil and finishes in October in places like Palermo. After the US Open the likes of Ferrero were still playing clay events. These clay court guys have too many clay court tournaments for my liking.

I do not approve of the idea of having a year end Masters Cup on clay.

Whats really interesting is if Nadal played ten years ago, he would not only have played top ten players with really big serves, but these guys had great all round games as well. They were not Karlovichs or Dents!

I wonder how he would have coped if his uncle has this attitude.

 

[yellowfuzz]

They should rotate surfaces yearly.

That was my thought as well. Just rotate so we don't have to listen to everyone whine when they can't play on their favorite surface.

Toni Nadal sounds like one of those over involved relatives who makes a fuss whenever a call goes against their son/daughter/nephew/niece. :roll:

 

[tennisjunkiela]

Toni Nadal sounds like one of those over involved relatives who makes a fuss whenever a call goes against their son/daughter/nephew/niece. :roll:

I think Tony Nadal isn't just an "over involved relative" but rather, Rafael Nadal's coach. And as a coach, he is doing his job by advocating in behalf of his client to make sure the conditions are optimal for him to win.

It's no different from Davis Cup captains and countries advocating for surfaces that will help them to win.

In an ideal world, a great tennis player should be able to win on ANY surface, but Sampras was one of the greatest ever and he couldn't win on clay. Does that mean Sampras isn't great because he preferred a surface (i.e. grass) that suited his game and enhanced his odds of winning? No, it means he smart.

Likewise, Nadal prefers a surface for the ATP Masters that suits his game (or at least gives him a fair chance of winning). As you have suggested, rotate the ATP Masters' surface yearly so that it fair for everyone, not just advantageous to the hard court specialists and big servers.

 

[the man to beat]

gd gd point

claycourters need their moment in the sun

kuerten did well in 2000 but then he was a big server

(i love big servers .... ACE ACE.... the matter)

 

[yellowfuzz]

I think Tony Nadal isn't just an "over involved relative" but rather, Rafael Nadal's coach. And as a coach, he is doing his job by advocating in behalf of his client to make sure the conditions are optimal for him to win.

I still call it whining.

Sampras probably could have won the French Open if it wasn't played on clay. But I don't remember his coach ever fussing about it. It was Pete's resposibility to learn to play better on clay. He didn't and it prevented him from getting a career grand slam. Oh well. That's life.

As far as I'm concerned the Master's Cup is just like any other tennis tournament. If you don't like the surface, don't play. No matter what surface is chosen someone will be unhappy.

Nadal has already accomplished more this year than most pro tennis players accomplish in their entire career. So I find it annoying that his uncle/coach would complain just because the Master's Cup chose a surface that Rafael doesn't play well on. Poor Rafa. Only 11 titles and a major this year. :roll:

 

[TennisRules]

See below interview with Muster - does the letter count as whining?
Seems even Sampras went on record as not liking Teraflex.

Not all carpets are the same, and an ultra-fast carpet is not the same as a fast hard court. Teraflex doesn't seem to be favored by many ATP players.

Makes me wonder about the details of the deal between the ATP and Gerflor.
_______________________________

1996 ATP WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - HANNOVER, GERMANY
November 22, 1996 - An interview with: THOMAS MUSTER

Q. Even Sampras was saying that he thought the surface was too fast.

THOMAS MUSTER: I think all players agreed. I think they signed a paper, all of us, that this tournament should be played on hard court. And, I think it has a pretty good chance next year ATP Tour Finals is going to be played on hard surface like the U.S. Open or something similar.


Q. You are saying that even Teraflex is not slow enough? You want it to be --

THOMAS MUSTER: Not me. Everybody. All of us agreed, yeah, this should be.


Q. Like a cement sort of surface?

THOMAS MUSTER: Right.


Q. When was this thing submitted this letter or --

THOMAS MUSTER: Today. And, I think it was signed by everybody.

http://www.asapsports.com/tennis/1996atpworld/112296TM.html
_____________________________
From the Gerflor Website:

"Gerflor’s Taraflex will become the ‘Official ATP Court Surface.’The ATP also has selected Taraflex as the court surface for the Tennis Masters Cup Shanghai from 2005-2007. The event, which is co-owned by the ATP, ITF and Grand Slams, will be played at the new $200 million Qi Zhong Tennis Center in Shanghai, China."